Gergeshwan

A lot of people cite Lugh’s poor earlygame as a reason for him to be lower on tier lists. To be fair, it is a valid criticism. On Hard. Lugh’s earlygame in Normal is not so damaging, and by the time Gonzales joins, Lugh has not only canceled any negative utility he may have built up, but he can also be a positive contribution in his own right. He starts too far away in Chapter 3, so I’ll just say he’s still base level in 4. 1/0 Lugh Fire 9 atk, 6 AS; 16 HP, 3 def, 17 avo I know I can’t argue this as good, but it really doesn’t matter too much. Most enemies in Chapter 4 have no 1-2 range, which means Lugh isn’t taking counters on Player phase. Nothing can ORKO him either, so it’s safe to let him be attacked on Enemy Phase as long as he isn’t completely exposed. The only enemies that can counter Lugh are some Hand Axe pirates. Level 3 Pirate Hand Axe 12 atk, 5 AS, 54 hit 27.75 True hit. It’s not like they ORKO him, so it’s safe for Lugh to attack. He scores 3RKOs on almost every enemy. While that’s bad on it’s own, he can finish off any damaged enemies to gain exp, or weaken enemies for others to gain exp. Plenty of people could use this, such as a 5/0 Alan who doesn’t double the 5+ AS enemies, Roy, Lot, Ward, Bors… The point is, he’s being useful, and he’s not taking up a unit slot yet, so you may as well use him. Before this goes too far, it’s time to talk about supports. Lugh gets Chad as a fairly fast option that starts early. On maps with chests, Chad will be off looting, but otherwise, he can give Lugh a nice defensive boost. If Ray is used, Lugh is his best supporter, but I’d say it’s more likely for Ellen to be used, at least as a backup healer. She should double more on Normal anyway, and might make a decent combat unit. Gonzales has absolutely terrible options. His only reasonable support is Echidna, and it’s only a late starting 1 + 1. At best, he can probably get a C towards the end. Time for Chapter 7, the one I consider to be the game’s hardest. It only takes 15 turns for a Chad C, so I’ll give him that now. 7/0 Lugh C Chad Fire 11 atk, 9 AS; 19 HP, 4 def, 30 avo This is where Lugh starts to really make himself useful. 9 AS is a fairly important number here (these Normal enemies really are pathetic) as it allows Lugh to double most enemies, particularly those weighed down. Soldiers and Knights are obvious, and Lugh doubles Archers and Cavs once they equip their Javelins (which is probably happening as soon as someone gets in their attack range.) Speaking of Knights… Level 7 Knight Javelin 13 atk, 1 AS, 64 hit; 22 HP, 0 res That’s the most powerful one, and Lugh ORKOs. Even a 9/0 Alan with Gant Lance can’t do that. It also only has 18.3 true on him, and actually 3RKOs. Lugh is great against the boss, who also has the magic 5 AS. He is also doubling one of those dangerous Dragons, as it drops to 5 AS from its Steel Lance. By this point, Lugh has established himself as the main man for nuking high defense foes. He has a poor start, but his contributions by Chapter 7 are enough to nullify that. Anything Lugh does after nullifying his negative utility is giving him an advantage in terms of positive contributions before Gonzales joins. Since he joins too late in Chapter 10, he’s still base level by 11. 5/0 Gonzales Iron Axe 20 atk, 9 AS, 78 hit; 36 HP, 6 def, 23 avo Hand Axe 19 atk, 63 hit 14/0 Lugh B Chad C Ellen Thunder 17 atk, 12.5 AS, 117 hit; 22.5 HP, 6 def, 45 avo Not even close. The paltry 3 atk is easily negated by the def/res gap, and Lugh’s avoid lead compensates for his lower concrete durability. His 1-2 range is far superior because the Hand Axe increases Gonzales’ hit problems. That said, the enemies here are absolutely ideal for Gonzales, being mostly weighed down fighters with poor AS/Avo. However, Gonzales has terrible hit, and even when he doubles, he has a good shot at not ORKOing. Level 15 Fighter Steel Axe 30 HP, 5 AS, 4 def, 1 res, 12 avo This is as favorable as it gets for Gonzales. Several Fighters have Hand axes that improve AS, and Archers/Mages can get free shots at him on Enemy Phase (unless he uses Hand Axe, but lolHit). Anyway, Gonzales only has 77 true hit with his most accurate weapon. When he attacks, he has ~41% chance to miss one attack and leave it alive. Lugh does not have this problem, and he can attack at 2 range so he doesn’t take counters. Overwhelming win for Lugh. Time to look at post promotion, maybe around 16x. Gonzales won’t be promoting before the secret shop in 16, while Lugh gets unrestricted movement in 14 and healing once he promotes as experience boosters (and usefulness boosters). It’s 60 turns for C Echidna, which may or may not have happened yet. However, it is only 40 turns for A Chad. 20/4 Lugh A Chad C Ellen Elfire 27 atk, 18 AS, 130 hit; 31 HP, 9 def, 66 avo 20/1 Gonzales Killer Axe 33 atk, 18.5 AS, 94 hit; 53.5 HP, 13 def, 47 avo Gonzales has certainly improved, although his accuracy is still shaky. However, 16x is quite bad for him and his pathetic Res due to a Bolting Sage (27 atk) and 2 Purge Bishops (23 atk). Lugh also has much better avo, although Gonzales can close the gap with WTA on Paladins and Knights. He does have 66 crit, but Lugh also has 29 (34 with Thunder), meaning that after you factor in the chance of Gonzales missing, Lugh is almost as likely to get a crit of his own. Time to look at his hit issues again. Level 6 Paladin- 20 avo Level 16 Merc- 36 avo Level 14 Sniper- 28 avo Axereaver Cav- 40 avo Level 13 Mage- 18 avo There’s only one Axereaver cav, but it’s something he has to avoid to fight effectively. But just looking at the Mercs, Gonzales has ~58% chance to miss once, and ~12% chance to miss twice. That’s not a good chance to take when attacking, especially since Lugh takes care of them safely. And someone has to heal the low res Bolting targets (aka Gonzales) and Lugh can do that too. Basically, Lugh fights and heals quite well and Gonzales misses a lot. One more comparison, this time near the end. 20/12 Lugh A Chad B Ellen Elfire 31 atk, 22 AS, 36 Crit, 144 hit; 35 HP, 10.5 def, 80 avo 20/9 Gonzales C Echidna Killer Axe 38 atk, 22.5 AS, 66 crit, 99 hit; 60 HP, 16 def, 63 avo I kept the level gap equal because in addition to his CEXP, Lugh can use staves when there are few enemies to fight. Also, Gonzales wasn’t exactly undereleveled anymore, so he gained exp at a normal rate. You can argue the level a bit if you want, but it doesn’t change that anything Gonzales wins here can’t make up for Lugh’s vast win throughout the rest of the game. Gonzales only has 7 atk on Lugh, which is compensated for by the Def/Res gap. Lugh’s better avoid helps against Gonzales’s concrete durability lead. And Lugh still has Staff utility on top of his good combat. He can also pull out Aircalibur to kill the Dragon Lords, which bites even further into Gonzales’s combat leads. Summary: Lugh makes up his earlygame deficit before Gonzales joins because these Normal enemies are failures. However, Gonzales still has a lot of trouble hitting stuff, because even though enemies are weaker, so is his hit. After promotion, Gonzales has good offense, but he still has problems hitting things, especially if faced with WTD. Meanwhile, Lugh has constant 1-2 range and better avoid to bolster his durability. After promotion, Lugh’s staves give him an added dimension of utility that both increases his worth and gives him more exp.

There were a few conditions agreed upon for this debate. -Normal Mode -Lalam Route -Ilia I open.

Sure. It might be up tomorrow, hopefully not too long.

Sounds good. I can probably use a chapter select code to get enemy stats. Actually I've only played Normal once. But yeah, those conditions are fine.

Yes. Ilia is generally easier, but if you want Sacae I don't mind. For this I was kind of hoping for Hard. Especially since I don't know if anyone gathered enemy stats for Normal. Gonzales gets HM boosts too, so it probably is a good idea. The tier list also assumes Hard, it would probably shift around a fair bit for Normal. Take your time.

I don't like ranks either, so that's no problem for me. Go ahead and open, and don't feel rushed to get it done.

I wouldn't mind taking this. I'm fairly inexperienced with this too, so it should be a better matchup. Lugh okay?

I also have to go with Lilina. Honorable mentions for Lyn, Canas, and Dancers/Herons.

I agree with this topic. I may be a fail debater, but those topics have improved my strategy. And they're fun to read too.

This is good, I really hate the ranks. Especially Exp. The thing that sticks out most is Ninils at top of Top Or not the top since they aren't ordered, but just Top in general. Really? They do have a highly adaptive Player phase, but you need to shield them on Enemy Phase, which partially negates their usefulness. They can dance the best unit at the time, but in a way, they have the same issues as the archers, namely no Enemy phase. Then you also have to consider that they don't exist for half the game, and Move issues. I don't know where they should go, since Dancers are one of those questions that largely comes down to playstyle, but I don't think they belong in Top. Have to agree with this as well. Wallace forces you to underlevel your Lords, deprives you of Geitz, and gives you the harder chapter. At least Louise helps against a more difficult enemy type. Actually, I think Louise needs to go up quite a bit. Maybe above Rebecca, since Rebecca's a liability, particularly early on. She has to dig herself out of the hole of suckitude before passing Louise, which I doubt actually happens. Although Rebecca could just drop, or I might just be completely wrong too. Erk could go up as well, might argue that later.

I found the target! Try to keep up!

My last one was actually kind of interesting. Haar- 130 Nolan- 118 Somehow beat Ike, but I'm guessing it was the Part 3 Beastfoe rampages. Ike- 110 Shinon, Titania, Nephenee, Zihark, and Mia all tied with 103 kills.

There's nothing wrong with giving them all axes. WTA against the most common weapon type, most mt, and they all have a secondary weapon if hit issues arise. Also, they can use Steel even at rank E, which is better than getting stuck with Iron for a while. Makalov is pretty good, although he might need some early KW to fix Spd issues. If you're using Astrid, I give him a solid recommendation.

With regards to Pelleas vs. Oliver, Pelleas can heal just fine with Physic. Oliver has a bit more magic (20/3 Pelleas has 29 against Oliver's 31, which basically means one more range), but really his only advantage is Fortify use. Which there is only one of. It's great to have around, but 5 uses isn't a whole lot. Micaiah's healing too, and Oliver has to share it with her for sure, possibly even someone else. Since it's definitely needed for 4-E-5, it's best to conserve uses. Hammerne could be used, but since Tarvos/Braves/Nice forges all want repaired too, it probably can't get more than one round back. A lot of this seems to be about "Oliver heals in 4-E, Pelleas owns a few dragons," but Pelleas is a competent healer, and he doesn't get doubled by almost all of everything. That's not too important since he's mostly using Physic anyway, but it does mean he can use Mend safely on the front lines to overcome the Mag difference. I'm not saying Pelleas heals better than Oliver, but the difference isn't so huge that Oliver can be viable for 4-E and Pelleas isn't. For what it's worth, Pelleas has better combat too. Not that it's good, it's just better than Oliver's. Pelleas also gives out a water support, which is always nice. The real issue for Oliver is even getting to 4-E. This will probably get called for PE, but I do just fine with Micaiah alone. A lot of good Endgame units are massive dodge tanks, and some turns, no one even ends up hurt. Micaiah can pretty much restore full health with Physic, and if necessary, get vigored and do it again. Then after adding healing items, more healers aren't in extremely high demand. If you really need another healer, Elincia, Soren, and Calill are in line before either Pelleas or Oliver are considered. Pelleas is just as unlikely to make it, but he contributes beforehand at the very least. If Oliver doesn't get in endgame, then his contribution becomes a few turns at the end of 4-4, which doesn't amount to a whole lot.

I would promote the magic user, especially since I tend to have too few healers when I play. Gaining staves is always nice.

First off, why is Nolan even going to the desert? 2 move is not good (or whatever he has). It basically renders him useless for a chapter, which is a problem when you're highly underleveled and need all the experience you can get. Both he (and Zihark) would like a route where they can keep up. For the record, Jill and Volug are not afraid of the desert. Endgame is one of Zihark's best times. He has Ike's stars and supports for massive avoid, and between Adept and Astra, a large skill activation rate. He also doubles the Auras for Parity fun. Endgame also happens to be a great time for Nolan. Hmm... BEXP? You do realize this is Hard, right? She gets ORKOd by almost everything, so she can't get large amounts of experience easily. Not being able to frontline is bad for your exp gain, as it basically relegates her to Player Phase. She won't be at 20 in time for those promotions. And she's not getting many levels of bexp because everyone wants it, and there isn't much to go around. Not like it helps her anyway, she still gets doubled and one shotted, and still nukes armors and later heals just the same. Maybe not a PEMN moment, but certainly favoritism. How many times does that defense not change his RKO number? When have you ever counted on that defense support when it only helps against 40% of enemies? Conversely, can you see how 22 more avoid is always beneficial, and always improves his chance to completely avoid damage? Which one can you count on? Why should I give Nolan that Light support? Sorry, I had to do that. But let's look at 3-6. 20/1 Nolan has 38 HP, 14 def (18 with Tarvos). 39 atk Tigers, the most common enemy, 2HKO him with or without Tarvos, and +2 defense on supports doesn't immediately change either case (Robe/Shield does push it to 3HKO with Tarvos). Even with the +def support, the shield still doesn't save from 41 atk tigers. Now Nolan would only have B Zihark here, and 7 more avoid isn't that impressive. However, it would be a 22 avoid gap in 3-13, and since Nolan will be a higher level, he will have more avoid. His Zihark A support basically cancels Ike's stars, and then it is mostly the same enemies fought in 3-6 with more evasive characters due to higher levels. And if +def isn't helping, than anything avoid can do is useful. Just one more nitpick: Keeping Nolan supported with Edward forces you to either protect him or keep him away from the front lines. In the former case, he hurts efficiency, in the latter case, he isn't giving his bonuses often. Both Nolan and Zihark like their support, and there is no reason to break it up.

Yeah, I took it from Nedata in FE9 actually, for some reason I always find those pirates lolworthy.

FE4- Lex FE5- Fin FE6- Gonzales FE7- Erk FE8- Lute FE9- Oscar FE10- Zihark

Well hello everyone. I've been around GFAQs for a bit, but I doubt anyone would recognize me. I always wanted to try my hand at debating, but GFAQs really isn't the best place so I decided to make an account. So hello to everyone and hopefully I don't do anything stupid. :P I have been lurking for a while, but now is as good a time to make an account as any.