Sol Hiryu

Narga, I'm not going to go into the whole topic of Zihark and Mia, but just one thing: I dunno what you mean there, but given there are a grand total of two Killing Edges in the game, including the one Zihark comes with, I'd certainly count it as a scarce enough resource if someone has to rely on it. The second one comes in Chapter 21, after they promote and don't really need it as much. So that leaves one Killing Edge with a total of 25 uses to be shared/fought over by three units in your army. Too tired to delve into other arguments at the moment. Legs are killing me.

I think with all of this discussion, we're starting to get off track of how we're actually tiering these units. I would love to see a set of tiering guidelines here for reference. Efficiency, availability, use of resources...how do we factor them in now? A standard would be nice, I would think.

I honestly think that was GameFAQs-era quite a few years ago, but I'm not sure as to the exact arguments that were made back then. All I knew was that a lot of the board was bugfuck bonkers. EDIT: I really don't want to make a big deal out of this, but it can essentially be said that when Zihark appears, he's basically at Mia's stats...only 3 levels lower and having needed no resources once he joins. If you give him enough BEXP too, he'll have leads over Mia in the time Wrath doesn't exist. Also, to kirsche, I didn't see that post. Still, the SS is already squabbled over enough and I'm not sure how she would do with a RS. But I suppose it's an answer if it is any.

The only advantage that Geoffrey have in that comparison is 9 Move and the ability for 1-2 range, something Mia has no answer for. I'd like to see some stats to see how they do against enemies, especially since Geoffrey will be meeting more of them than Mia will in their first shared chapter since it's a huge open map. And I just had a small, irrelevant thought. Mia is definitely the best candidate for Wrath, since she can use it the most once it appears, but then it's no longer possible to do a Wrath/Resolve Ike for an easy Ashnard kill. Mia using Wrath for 10 chapters > Ike using it for 2ish, but considering that I've seen people state before that a Wrath/Resolve Ike was better than Aether!Ike... Also, since we're on the topic of contributions to efficiency...I'd like to bring up Rolf > Elincia. Is 3 chapters of being a mediocre flying healer really so much better than what Rolf does from Chapter 9 and onward?

I wouldn't say that Mia beats Zihark at join time...the latter has more Str, a Spd lead, and has Adept. Their defense is about even. */random* Also, I think I get what Interceptor is talking about. Mia is really awful at first, but if used, her contributions to an efficient playthrough should be taken into account. Her use of resources are counted against her, true, but her use of them to help the team through the chapters where Geoffrey doesn't exist should be taken into account. Using no resources > using resources, obviously, but we also have to consider that Mia has used those resources when Geoffrey didn't exist, and she's been using them fairly decently in those chapters. If this list is ranked solely on how they perform in chapters at certain levels/with resources and whatnot, then she loses to Geoffrey instantly. ...however, her contributions to the team over the period of 17 chapters makes it more even. If I recall, it's the thing that got Ike above Tanith, and how Rolf managed to get out of Bottom. Yes, availability works both ways, but it's still an advantage if she's doing something positive over time. (Which isn't to say characters with more availability > characters with less, far from it.)

...I meant the Slim Sword. Crap. *sighs* I suppose I'll just have to wait until I actually get some sleep before I make any more posts off the top of my head. =/ EDIT: For the sake of the argument, I do agree with Mia > Taur, but I honestly think it's really close as far as they're concerned.

Ugh, I'm more tired than I thought. You're right, it does give her around four levels, more or less. However, this still does not change the fact that her durability is very bad around this time. Level 9 Mia only has 7 Def and 23 HP, with only 38 Avo. I'm not sure about that. All she has to attack with are a Wo Dao, which does laughable damage without a crit, or an Iron Sword, which only gives her 13 Atk. She more than likely won't get a forge here, since this is the first chapter you can make one. Even with Vantage, she's facing some significant risk. Let's look: IIRC, most of these ones are on the left. If they aim for her, they have around a 54 to 59% chance of hitting her. This can quickly add up into a 3HKO by themselves, but if other enemies are attacking her... I'm pretty sure one or two of those are on the left. She gets 3HKOed again, but she's looking at 60% listed hit while she 3RKOs him. Healing her and putting her on the frontlines is a very bad idea with her HP/Def ratio, especially at these rates. Vantage will not save her or give her a safe enemy phase in Chapter 8. But her being around level 12 seems like a safe number. It still doesn't change the fact that her performance is entirely lackluster until promotion.

Mia by level 13 is a bit ludicrous, especially considering she more than likely won't be able to get a level in two of the chapters mentioned(her join chapter and Chapter 10, considering we go stealth). Assuming we give her 411 BEXP in Chapter 8, she'll gain two or three levels, depending on how much you had her fight in the previous chapter. This would put her around level 8 or 9 going into that chapter. Considering it's mostly a defense chapter by that time, you probably don't want her on the frontlines due to her bad durability and not so reliable avoid, so she'll more than likely gain less than a level. She'll probably gain another level (or two) in the next chapter, and then we'll skip chapter 10 due to not many participating in it. So she'd be around Level 11, give or take a level. Since she's in play, she's definitely the best choice for Wrath considering she could use Wrath + Vantage. However, Wrath does not come until Chapter 18, where she should be promoting or be close to it by that time. Before that, we've had to deal with her awful durability amidst some very lance and sword heavy chapters. You -can- mitigate this if you treat her like Rolf and infuse her with more BEXP than what's fair, but that's beside the point. Yes, she's very good once she gets her hand on Wrath, and ignoring the opportunity costs of giving it to her, it does help her immensely once she's under half HP. Until her promotion and Chapter 19, when she can first make use of it, her performance is very lackluster. Tauroneo has Resolve, but actually making use of it is more trouble than it looks like, no thanks to his rather high defense. He is very powerful when its activated, but his move issues hamper that and make it very unlikely he'll see enough action to get it to that point. I'd pull up numbers, but...I'm too lazy right now. Maybe later.

I always love the "omg it was my nanny" excuse. Hours of entertainment for everybody!

Blargh, I forgot wind magic against all fliers. If the beorcguard managed to guard against that, then it'd be passably usable, but...honestly, it seems pretty much useless unless you're doing a full-scale charge into a bunch of enemies or something. =/ I suppose it's too minor of a point to talk about, even though the beast laguz gain a lot more from it than the hawks. I suppose Janaff can use one to stave off the effective attacks if he needs to get somewhere on the map, which would be sorta helpful, I guess.

...you know, I usually do end up forgetting about the Beorcguard. Mostly because it's a really weird thing to argue about. o.o I'm unsure if it protects against arrows and ballista, though. It gets rid of the wind weakness/laguz-slayer weapons, but since all flying units in the game have a universal weakness to arrows, does it protect against that? Because from the text: I realize that the description could be wrong, but do bows count as a laguz-killing weapon? I also suppose it's because no one talks about the Laguzguard much, and when they do, the general consensus is that no one is entitled to it, because everyone likes to halve Laguz damage.

Well, Ulki does have flying utility and the ability to help ferry people across places, so that's better than what could be said of anyone below him. Plus, I do think he should get at least partial credit for the Knight Ring, if we already don't factor that in; it's something that only he or Janaff and Reyson can get, so... Also: A. The only two options are the Sonic Sword and the Runesword. The former she has to fight with Mist and Tanith over, and the latter will destroy her AS advantage. B. Granted, but how common are laguz-slaying weapons? C. Did you even factor in Vigilance? That would put it at 62 vs 60 avoid, a very negligible lead.

The issue about the forges...well, someone said that you only have two chances to forge a Silver Sword by the time Lucia joins, and it can be held against her since there are other units that might enjoy using it too (Ike, Tanith, Makalov, Zihark, etc.). Really, it's no different from the whole "everybody takes a forge away from somebody else" argument, but I can see the gist of it considering that Silver weapons make themselves available right before she joins. And that's not to mention that a max mt/max crit Silver Sword is fairly pricey on its own. I'm still undecided about the whole Lucia and Ena thing, so I'll just take a look at Nasir. 20/16 Lucia (Silver Sword/Forged Silver): 39 HP, 30 Atk/35 Atk, 25-26 AS, 11-12 Def, 68-70 Avo, 27 Crt/36 Crt Base Nasir: 56 HP, 40 Atk, 26 AS, 29 Def, 69 Avo, 148 Hit (w / Demi Band): 35 Atk, 25 AS, 27 Def, 67 Avo, 144 Hit ...even right there, Nasir pretty much owns Lucia up and down the street upon his join time, even with the Demi Band. Taking a look at the enemy statistics: Both will double and 2RKO regardless. However, they have 59 listed Hit on both of them. Nasir can easily shrug it off, but Lucia will get 2HKOed. Both will double again regardless. Lucia will 2RKO both groups of cats normally with a forged Silver, but Nasir will ORKO the first group if he's unbanded. Defensively, Lucia faces a 3HKO from both groups, while Nasir is invincible. Oh dear. With forged Silver, Lucia will 5 to 6RKO these guys without crit. She gets 2HKOed (at 61~68% displayed hit, yikes) right back from all of them. A laguzslayer won't help, either. Nasir, on the other hand, will 3 to 4RKO them, and gets 3 to 4HKOed back. Neither should probably go up against them, but Nasir fares a lot better. Finally, let's compare some beorc samples with them. They both double everything sans the Swordmaster. Lucia is facing varying 2 to 3HKO rates (the Sniper is a 4HKO) ranging anywhere from 36% listed to 56% listed, which isn't really good for her survival. Nasir is much the same, but will face no damage from most attacks save the Swordmaster's effective weapon and maybe the Runesword. Banded!Nasir is even better here. Lucia does have +1 Mov on Nasir, but it's not going to be enough to save her from the wrath of all the laguz in the chapter. Endgame...I'm too lazy to look up, but Nasir is forced there anyway, IIRC. Lucia's contributions have to be head and shoulders above how hard Nasir is roflstomping her into the ground on their first shared chapter together if she wants to rise, in my opinion.

Uh, you're not getting it. We don't care if you say it happened before or not, because I know I can't trust you at face value. The "I couldn't have ever posted all those things because it was my friend doing it on my account! See? Cleared!" defense instantly makes you as credible as the guy who famously claimed that he couldn't have downloaded all that child porn onto his computer, because his cat had to have been doing it while he was sleeping. That is to say, not at all.

Wait a minute. You're seriously saying that it wasn't you, it was your nanny friend that said such a disgusting thing because you left your account open? ... Seen it before, loled, and shook my head. Can we get an IP check? At least find a better excuse than "my nanny did it lol".

kirsche, wait. Which chapter are you addressing in your comparison? Because I was under the impression that Lucia doesn't show up in the base of 24, so there's no way she can be level 13 in Chapter 24...unless I'm mistaken. It's been a while since I've played HM, so I can't remember if her actual join time is in-chapter with Bastian or before that.

I'll admit that I was taking only a brief glance at the enemy stats, so I might not have figured her actual #HKO value correctly. Still, she and Bastian come in on the beginning of turn 2, near the bottom right corner. Since it might take her a turn or two to catch up to the other units, which enemies is she more likely to be facing, and what are her chances of death against those? She 2RKOs a lot of the map, yes, but she also has to take a counter. If she gets hit, her chances of death in the next attack skyrocket.

It's funny, because I was about to bring it up myself. From her join time, Lucia can double nearly everything on the map, but has horrid survivability issues. 36 HP/10 Def is very bad by the time she joins, and she'll get 2HKOed by a majority of stuff. Granted, her Avo mitigates that somewhat, but all it takes is a brief unlucky streak for her to die. For that reason, you can't really throw her into a crowd of enemies and expect her to clean up, especially since there are Wyvern Riders and Lance Knights every which way. She has good offense, but that's a sharp contrast to her horrid defense. While her offense and avo do get better, she's not changing in concrete durability that much. Supports are very sketchy for her, and it's more likely than not that she won't get one. So she's looking at getting 2HKOed at anytime over her entire existence, which is made a whole lot worse if you're intending for her to have an actual enemy phase. Ena, when she joins, either matches Atk with Lucia or beats it, depending if Lucia has a forge or not. And then her concrete durability is far better, so she's probably not dying to anything except thunder magic. She'll never double, unfortunately, not to mention her gauge woes. She does come for free, however. I guess it's more of an issue of whether or not Lucia's offense and whatever she did to keep herself from getting killed > Ena's two chapters of whatever she does.

lolwhat Have you seen Shinon in RD? And this topic is getting very PE heavy. Remember that PEMN if you're trying to argue that he's better than whoever else! (Honestly, I can't recall any other post defending Rolf until Vykan made one, because each one before that was mostly PEMN. I guess it really isn't surprising that no one wanted to deal with him moving up if those were the only posts.)

I think he means when Rolf was still considered the worst character EVER in PoR not even two months ago, and it was unthinkable to even suggest moving him up because the smackdown was so quick. But he's cool. So is Bastian. Bastian is epic.

It's kind of weird with me. I usually start a game with a general idea of who to use and what I'm going to do with them. Then as I get further along, that plan starts changing radically. Maybe it's because one unit didn't turn out as well as I thought they would be, and another unit that I was using temporarily was turning out awesome. Or one unit doesn't need the resource I was going to give them and I can give it to someone else and make them awesome. A lot of my playthroughs end up with me starting with a group of characters and ending with half of them replaced.

Oh, right. I forgot about the skill capacity. Ah well. ...it's so strange. I keep forgetting about skills, because not that many characters make good use of them. =/

...it isn't? Huh, I was under the impression that you could still crit within a Deadeye activation, but I might have just been not paying attention if that happened when I was playing. But then again, I never tried to use Gamble ever, so that's probably a moot point. Doesn't really change anything, but those figures are still pretty good for a low accuracy weapon.

Even if it were, it comes too late and can only be used by two people on your team, so it's probably not worth it in a tier discussion. I guess that's why no one ever brings up the Longbow, huh? XD; (The Double Bow sucks a lot more ways than that, because it's strictly 4 range. If you have it equipped, your Sniper suddenly can't counter at 2 range anymore. Suck.) So, basically, Rolf not only needs have leads over Janaff at join-time/from thereon, but his lategame existence has to be good enough to make up for his poor earlygame. Janaff and Rolf are comparable upon the first chapter, but that's all dependent on levels/promotion/whatever favoritism we decide to give them. I'm a little iffy on comparing BEXP + a forge to a scarce resource like an Energy Drop, but I guess whatever works. I guess if Rolf does an early promo with a Seal, like...maybe 18?, then he doesn't lose as much from those two levels. Eh...honestly, I don't think Rolf has enough going for him to get past Janaff, considering Janaff can use flight to do a lot of things in other chapters, but at the same time, Janaff will need some kills set up for him if he uses the Demi Band as chapters go on. What's the EXP rate of laguz, anyway? I know they level slightly differently, so I'd like to know exactly how slowly they gain EXP. Because 20/12 Janaff by Ch. 24 sounds a bit off, unless there's BEXP involved.