Sol Hiryu

To be fair, Galeforce is a really good tool, but it's largely irrelevant by the time you do get it. Unless Sumia and/or Cordelia are shoveling most kills down their throats, I don't see them getting to level 15 Dark Flier until late Valm or early Validar, at which point it's nice to have but not really as significant as it could have been. That said, they do need to move over Lon'qu. Swordlock and horrific defenses just make him a worse Chrom overall.

In my mind, Lucina could probably fall out of S, but it's really contingent on if she really doesn't make that big an impact even with Veteran. Being absent for half the game is not a good thing. Regarding Chrom, Interceptor already made the point that he's a much better support unit than actual lead unit. None of the skills he gets directly benefit him unless he's supporting, which screws with his EXP if you keep him there all the time, and his stats are okay but not anything amazing. Being swordlocked for most of his existence until he grabs a Second Seal is also bad. He's actually a great pair up unit, but that alone doesn't make him better than anyone in S, except maybe Lucina. I also agree with Sully > Panne, but I don't think the case for it is as solid as people say.

Pushing Frederick down to the bottom of S would probably be good...but I'm really not convinced Lucina (Avatar) is better than him, considering that she doesn't exist for half the game. Having her drop to top of A would probably be a better solution, but I can't really say that for certain until we know how much of an impact she makes after she joins. The pegs can probably go up, though. Lon'qu is good, but he suffers the same way Chrom does in that he's a better support partner than a lead unit, only he doesn't have Chrom's incredible support abilities. Swordlock sucks big time as well.

It usually would, but kid paralogues operate under a different set of conditions from other lists, so it's entirely contingent on how long it would take for a kid's parents to S-rank. This is not a problem at all for most earlygame units, but certain others will definitely run into that issue. In my view, kids will have recruitment costs associated with them due to the way you can recruit them, but it ranges from 'irrelevant' (top half of the list) to 'eugenic pool failure' (bottom half).

I can definitely see Frederick dropping, but there's no way I can see him out of S tier entirely, considering that he's effectively better than everyone in A until they can all get out of their earlygame rut. Him going below Lucina (Avatar) is pretty sketchy too, since he's actively contributing to efficient clears while she doesn't even exist. Regarding Brady: He's probably the second worst kid, but I really can't see him below Inigo for the simple fact that Brady's recruitment is far more simpler and actually easier to get than Inigo's, which has all sorts of negative connotations associated with it (Olivia S-ranking with anybody in a reasonable time, probably has the hardest kid paralogue, bad stats). Still, they're both pretty bad.

One per playthrough is bit extreme since that immediately places the onus of "well this kid isn't morgan" onto the rest of the kids. It probably wouldn't affect their placement, but to limit it like that isn't really conductive to discussion. After all, why would you ever take Brady or Inigo over Morgan or Kjelle? Given how the paralogues work, I can easily see three kids being available per playthrough, which would sidestep the issue of Morgan.

The main problem with the kids, in my mind, is that in any sort of efficient playthrough that eschews grinding, you're never going to be able to get every child paralogue. Moreover, with the sheer amount of parental combinations, it's very difficult to make direct comparisons between them for proper tiering. It's possible we can consider them to be tiered in a void like we did to transferred stat characters on the RD list, but that opens up more complications. As I mentioned before, the kids are "pseudo-tiered" within their current list, so their eventual integration with the main list proper probably won't look too much different than it already is. Inigo might get his own special bottom tier though, just for laughs.

So, uh, back to Chrom for a moment. I can see him below Stahl in A tier, and the only issue there is if Stahl's early game speed issues outweigh everything else he has on Chrom. When does the first Speedwing turn up? If it's early enough, Stahl has a good claim to it to help him through his rut.

I really think it's time for Chrom to move down to A tier. Other than his okay-ish offense, he has very little going for him compared to everyone already in S-tier, with the slight exception of Frederick. He's essentialy swordlocked since he'll never have decent 1-2 range (lol Javelins), and he really doesn't get any skills that directly benefit him in battle. He could reclass to Cav to alleviate those problems, but that takes a Second Seal and it can exacerbate any existing speed issues he might be suffering in the earlygame. Chrom is a great support unit to pair up with because of Dual Strike+ and pair up bonuses, but he's a very lackluster character when he's in front. Definitely high A-tier, but there's no way he should be in S. @Gaius: Gaius is almost literally a glass cannon, which means you really don't want to expose him to much combat--especially since his sluggish Luck growth really screws with his avoid. Thief utility is awesome, but being a below-average combat unit in a game where most of the missions are Rout/Kill boss isn't.

It's implied that he did it for several reasons, two of the most prominent being that he was a religious zealot and that he was a warmonger like Walhart. It's even more directly implied that he was intent on the ethnic genocide of the Plegians because of the whole Grimleal thing, but it's never mentioned in depth. The fact that such details are never mentioned except when it serves to glorify some characters (ie: Emmeryn) is one of Awakening's major failings. Having Ylisse be (or have been) a not-so-different counterpart to Plegia would have made the story 5x better than it is.

A few things. @Panne - I personally think she's fine where she is. She's an excellent unit, but despite her incredible offense, she still has to watch for flier weaknesses (she really detests wind magic) and for random Beast Killers. I think that plus the fact she needs to take the Second Seal to get going should really keep her from moving up. @Nowi - I'd personally put her at the bottom of B and move Tiki down to top of C. Tiki's stats are great, but she comes in so late...especially after such a difficult paralogue. Conversely, Nowi's base stats are horrible but she can quickly get out of her hole with the right tools, not to mention she has far more support options than Tiki. @Donnel&Ricken - Both of them should probably move above Basilio/Flavia and no higher than that. Personally I don't really care about which one of them is over the other, but I still maintain that neither Basilio or Flavia should be over anyone considering how late and bad they are. @Healers - Yeah, their stats suck and healing isn't so great in this game, but until you get Anna and Libra, they're literally the only ones keeping everyone healed up. Even after said healers join, Libra is the only one who has instant Physic access, at which point one or both of the starting healers should have C. I would maintain that they're better than Kellam at the very least. @Olivia - This was brought up by SolidSense earlier, and I had a longer argument articulated (which I thought better of and deleted), but right now I feel that she's fine where she is, although I really think a discussion on who uses the Boots the best would be nice. 7 Move Olivia would eliminate one of her main problems, but there's also the fact that her fragility is really hindering in regards to taking risks with her. I think her usefulness on indoor maps versus her uselessness on open maps cancel each other out.

That first Second Seal has a huge cost associated with it, since taking it away from Panne heavily impacts the rest of the team...or at least greatly impacts your turn counts until you can get the second one. I'm torn over Donnel because it's hard to reconcile his extremely shitty beginning with his, admittedly, incredible mid/lategame. There's definitely going to be disagreement regarding the time/resources needed on him in the beginning vs. the time he saves/benefits he brings after he's up to speed. Although to be fair, I'm not very fond of Basilio/Flavia being over anyone, as I find it very hard to believe that Basilio's one turn of Rally Strength in his joining chapter is greater than whatever Donnel/Ricken brings over the whole game. It's like Fiona wasting laguz gauge all over again.

Despoil pretty much means burning a Second Seal on Vaike or Gregor, so there's a cost associated with that. Given that they'll only have around 10 to 15 Luck by the time you reclass them, which means you're only getting a small Bullion every 9 to 10 kills. It's a nice little bonus for reclassing to Brigand, but it's not something that's even remotely broken. As for the whole Dark Knight vs Sorc thing, I'll only say that Sorcerers are better at combat, but Dark Knight has better utility in pair up bonuses (most useful being the +3 Def/+1 Mov with no support). Pretty much up to you on how you want to use it.

In actuality, the kids are technically already tiered in their own separate list, it's just that there's too many variables to allow them onto the list proper. But yes, the general thinking is the easier their paralogue is, the sooner you can get them and have them be worth something. It doesn't account for who their father is, but then you can probably just assume Avatar and have it somewhat equal or something. I don't see the kids getting tiered onto the regular tier list anytime soon, so the separate list is appropriate.

Virion is kind of in a weird place. His long term viability is very low, but he's one of your early characters and can help with chip damage during a time where everyone else isn't quite up to doubling status. His contributions in Chapters 1 through 4 is easily a lot more worthwhile than whatever Ricken, and by proxy, Basilio and Flavia, can do.

Olivia's position is fine as it is right now; Dancing is neat, but it's nowhere near as beneficial as it is in other games because of Pair Up. It's great if you need to reposition yourself for some reason, but now that you can do 1-turn pair up/drop, Dancing isn't quite as needed. That's only the start of her woes. She'll be faced with near certain OHKOs/ORKOs if she ever enters combat, so that limits how she can move. She'll never catch up to mounted units to Dance for them, which is very problematic in large, open maps. If she ever wants to fix that, she either has to take the Boots (which show up in Chapter 17 and have a large cost associated with it), have her paired up with a mount to carry her to the main army (which wastes both the mount's AND her turn), or have someone Rescue Staff her up to the main army (more viable, but still a problem). Note that her position is based on as if Galeforce doesn't exist, as it's very unlikely anybody sans Sumia and Cordelia will have it, and even then they might only get it lategame. I could see her go up to the bottom of C tier, if only because she's slightly more viable on indoor stages, but I think you guys are overstating how useful she really is. --------------------- That said, some minor thoughts: Frederick can probably stand to move down, probably all the way to bottom of S. His pair up is nearly essential in the beginning, but he starts falling off around Chapter 10. I'm still unsure about Chrom and Sully's placements. They're great and solid, but both of them can fall prey to Speed issues. It's fixed by Speed Tonics and pairing up with each other, but it's not exactly smooth sailing for them. Chrom is essentially swordlocked until he reclasses to Cavalier, and Sully might find herself with WTD too often if she doesn't use a sword enough (although Discipline helps her out with that). Not exactly -big- concerns, but they're still there. Out of everyone, I think they're the most viable to fall to A tier, but Frederick is a contender as well. A tier looks fine for the most part. Stahl is a great tank that's unfortunately hampered by Speed issues, while Lon'qu has great offense with terrible defenses. Anna's great, the peg duo have great pair up bonuses but horrible durability, and Lucina is great all around but comes really late. B tier...Miriel and Vaike are fine. I actually think Libra can rise a slight bit because having some form of staff utility is better than nothing, and it's always good to have another in case Anna can't be everywhere at once. That said, the rest of the tier looks just about right. The only thing I should add about the C tier is that Say'ri and Olivia could swap places, if only because Say'ri's only saving grace is her pair up bonuses, which isn't really anything spectacular. I'm a bit torn on that though. Ricken is completely terrible, but I suppose he's only slightly better than Donnel and should probably be above him, or even bottom of D. But that 5 speed in the beginning is really damning, and you really don't have the time or the resources to baby him out of his really shitty start.

I'd rather have a list of which stat boosters come in which chapters. That way we can think of who uses it best when you obtain them.

Panne's placement is based on the fact that once she gets that first Second Seal to reclass to Wyvern Rider, her offense is pretty much unparalleled by anyone that isn't the Avatar. E Rank Axes isn't as much a detriment because Bronze Axes are slightly more powerful than the others.

I'm going to assume that tonics can be used as soon as you get access to the shops that have them. I don't think their use will really affect the current placements at this time, though.

Before we continue, what's the specific criteria of this list? What difficulty is it? Is it assuming efficient runs? Paralogues/No Paralogues? That aside... Griffon Rider needs to go way up, probably to High or Top. Axe-lock isn't even a problem given that you would be using Axes most of the time in Wyvern Rider anyway, and Deliverer/Lancebreaker is leagues better than Quick Burn/Swordbreaker. +2 move has huge amounts of utility during the story. Cherche also appreciates the extra Skill/Speed the class gives. Great Lord down to top of High. Aether and Rightful King are good, but not great...especially since you can't reclass, rendering Rightful King useless. Swords/Lances are nice, but Chrom and Lucina have to work up from E-rank, not to mention Javelins are really weak, so they might as well be locked to 1-range. Additionally, Chrom is prone to being Speed/Def screwed in Great Lord, which is very dangerous in itself. The caps are nice, but you have to hope the growths don't screw you over. Dark Flier can probably move down, possibly to bottom of Top. Galeforce is amazing, but you only have two characters that can promote into Dark Flier: Sumia and Cordelia. Both of them will have defensive issues forever, and they're not very good at Dark Flier's main drawing point, magic. E tomes + low Mag means they can't really use it to its fullest extent, meaning they might as well keep using lances. Galeforce is still an amazing skill regardless, it's just the effort of getting the characters to that point. Dark Rider down to High. Swords + Tomes sounds nice in theory but it suffers from the same problem Dark Flier does, minus the crippling weaknesses. Additionally, the skills aren't very good; Slow Burn is a really bad skill and Lifetaker isn't really great unless you pair it with Galeforce. The real value in the class is from the defensive bonuses the mages get, as they really appreciate the extra HP and Def growths. Good class, but not really up there with the really broken ones. Swordmaster and Assassin should both be around each other, with Assassin being -maybe- a little higher. Swordmasters are a bit more beefy and their offense is much better with Astra, but they are faced with being locked to Swords. They have almost no 1-2 range options aside from Amatsu, which is only 30 uses. Assuming no DLC, that's the only ranged sword you'll ever get aside from Levin Swords (lol). The worst part is that Lon'qu is the only one who can become a Swordmaster with No Reclass (aside from Say'ri, but she has her own huge issues), and his defenses are typically bad for a Myrmidon/Swordmaster. His offense is almost unparalleled, but he can't sustain multiple Enemy Phases unless he's absurdly lucky with Vantage. Taguel can probably move into low, switching places with Valkyrie. Beastbane is nice, being locked into 1-range isn't. Unless you specifically set it up so every single cavalry unit aggros onto Panne on EP, it's very difficult for her to sustain her growth. Dancer up to Mid. There's no way Olivia can ever be considered a liability unless you're deliberately throwing her into crowds of enemies. Trickster needs to go up, to top of Low if need be. Lucky 7 and Acrobat are incredible skills and it helps Anna's durability and thief utility. Staves are always nice as well. Their offense is not amazing but it's passable. Berserker needs to be taken off the list because no one can become one without reclassing, which violates the No Reclassing rule. Shame, as they're definitely better than Warriors.

But Beastbane's main problem is that you have to be in the Taguel class. Beastbane is very powerful, yes, but the fact of the matter is that the very few characters that get the skill will almost never be using it during the main story, as they want to class out of Taguel as soon as possible. If a skill is good but will never see any use under normal conditions, it shouldn't be so high. For the record, it could have some uses postgame, but being locked to 1-range is never, ever good.

Wouldn't you have to take into account the randomness of the Merchants selling stuff that you wouldn't reasonably be able to get until later in the game? If I remember right, some of them are even selling stat boosters and Master/Second Seals very early if you get lucky. Unless you plan on just ignoring them altogether, but it seems a bit counterproductive.

Oh, and why is Charm all the way at the bottom tier? +10 Hit/Avo for just being within three spaces of Chrom is a nice bonus, and it's more than welcome at the time you get it. If anything, Solidarity should probably drop, or Charm should rise to be around it; being right next to the Avatar for Solidarity's bonus is a whole lot different than just being within three spaces of Chrom.

Rightful King could probably drop, if only because Lucina and male!Morgan can actually use it to their advantage. Chrom's class selection does not give him the skills he needs to really make full use of it. Aptitude could probably be bottom of Top/top of High. Great skill, but that requires you to really use Donny. Not that big a deal if you're concentrating on postgame stuff, but not really that great if you're just playing the game. His kids are a different story, but the overall point remains the same. Beastbane/Wyrmsbane should probably drop because it requires leaving the characters in the Taguel/Manakete class. The Taguel characters want to reclass ASAP, while Wyrmsbane isn't as great as Beastbane, even though Manaketes are a better class. Should Bowbreaker/Bowfaire drop? I can't really see it being as useful as the other breaker/faire skills given that the people who want it the most can't actually get it without inheritance. Personally, I think Rally Movement can go up slightly. That 1 extra movement can really help sometimes, but it's not especially crucial.

I think it would probably be easier to assume that most children won't be recruited in an efficiency run simply due to the fact that you probably won't have enough time or resources to train and support an extended team. You could probably get one or two children paralogues, depending on your team setup, but there's no way you'll get all of them if you're aiming to keep turn counts low.