Sol Hiryu

Don't forget that Mordecai also really wants that Speedwing, which cuts into Ulki getting one. The whole forge thing is weird, because I keep going over pages and pages of previous debates and people citing specific forges for specific people. You know, like Oscar and Neph getting their own forges. I mostly think that it's because they get forges mostly tailored to what they need (they both get max mt, but Oscar wants hit and Neph wants crit, I think), and the possibility of trading while in the chapters themselves are fairly limited due to move differences. But since the possibility of it exists, it is a small advantage nonetheless. @smash: The Double Bow, despite being so much weaker than its RD counterpart, is a Sniper only weapon. So either Rolf or Shinon can make use of the 4 range and +3str it gives, despite it only having 9 Mt. Yeah, it's weaker than a forge, but 4 range is nothing to sneeze at. It might also just be me, but Snipers also make better use of the Killer Bows due to innate crit and all, but...whatever.

The only 'more open' maps are the desert chapter and parts of Chapter 17 in this comparison. Again, every chapter before those has a lot of chokepoints that he can take advantage of. I can see your point on some open areas of maps, like 16, but true open maps are few and far between once he actually joins. EDIT: That said, I can probably accept Janaff > Rolf > Ulki, due to Rolf's offense needing a good amount of time to really get going compared to whatever utility Janaff can get by being able to fly over obstacles and ferry people. This does bring up the other two characters between them, though. Shinon has great early-game utility, but will need some levels to catch back up to everyone else when he returns. A brief comparison if we're going by join time: ??/2 Shinon (Forged Steel): 33 HP, 24 Atk, 14 AS, 9 Def, 37 Avo, 23 Crt (Silver Bow): 23 Atk (Killer Bow): 19 Atk, 53 Crt (Brave Bow): 20 Atk, 12 AS 20/1 Rolf (Silver Bow): 32 HP, 29 Atk, 17 AS, 14 Def, 46 Avo, 24 Crt (Killer Bow): 25 Atk, 54 Crt (Brave Bow): 26 Atk This assumes Shinon got a level before he left, and Rolf managed to promote sometime during or after 18. Looking at that, it seems pretty bad. Even if you don't factor in supports/growth bands, Shinon has some bad stats upon his return time. Furthermore, Rolf also has the option to further increase his Crit if he's adjacent to either Boyd or Oscar during a turn, which is admittedly not always possible, but it's there and can and will be used at points. However, Shinon's early game utility is not to be ignored, and Rolf's early game troubles shouldn't be either. Let's say we give Shinon three levels of BEXP before we send him into chapter 19. He'll end up looking like this: ??/5 Shinon (Forged Steel): 35 HP, 26 Atk, 16 AS, 11 Def, 42 Avo, 24 crt. Once again, this doesn't count the fact that he can use a growth band to raise his already huge growths. With three BEXPed levels, he's now roughly on par with Rolf, minus one AS and possible Crit. He takes around 481 BEXP to do this, which might be fair or not depending on how much you have at that point. He can also grab an immediate Gatrie support upon his join time, if he's in play. If we assume growth bands, then Rolf has had 19 levels of which to take advantage of it, and he could choose to improve his Str or Spd over that time. Shinon can use them to greater effect due to high growths, but his EXP gain will be lower in comparison to Rolf's when they finally get a shared chapter together. I'd like to call it even, but I haven't checked how they perform on enemies in the next few chapters, although I'd bet they'd be far too similar. As for Elincia...it gets into the whole healer utility thing which is hard to argue. She immediately comes with A Staves and is a flying healer, which is very good. However, she comes at level 1 and has 12 Mag, which translates into 6 range with a Physic, which isn't so good. Moreover, she only has 3 chapters in which to utilize it. Ignoring her combat because it's definitely lolworthy, just how useful would she be on a team that probably has three (or maybe more) healers already?

Shinon is in the interesting position of being the only mercenary early game that disappears entirely until Chapter 18. Gatrie at least comes back several chapters before that. Regardless, Shinon is pretty much forced onto every map that has him available early-game, and it's obvious that using him is > not using him. While I think it can be honestly argued that whatever he kills he takes away because he doesn't exist for a long time after he leaves, he still contributes positively to each chapter he's in because his player phase offense easily trumps everyone's but Titania's.

Make no mistake, he actually does take more than his fair share if you're only using a team of 10 units, but I think the actual issue is that some people are blowing it way out of proportion. IIRC, all he takes is ~738 BEXP total to get to level 9. By that point, assuming max BEXP or close to it, you should have around 2800 to 3000 of it. Some of it has probably been used on a few units here and there, which is alright. This is assuming that we're giving this to him in the beginning of Chapter 11, since 10 is just total stealth and he should have no reason to be there.

That's a good question, one that I've been wondering myself. Being level one, he takes a lot less BEXP to get to the point where we want him, and then you can just forgo giving him any of it at all until after Ch. 15 or 16, depending if you want to push him to promotion before 18. Now, if Rolf needed anything besides BEXP and a forge, then I would say he needed a lot of resources to get to the point where he is now, but...the fact is, he doesn't. Yes, he does need more BEXP at the start, and even that amount is offset by the fact that you get a lot more in the next few chapters, especially if he uses none of it. There's also the fact that he can also make full use of any of the growth bands available, which do help. Going over this whole topic, I kinda feel like the general feeling is that if you're not a upper mid unit and haven't been since the beginning, any consumption of resources takes away from them and automatically makes you low/bottom. That's changed since then, but then you have people going "but I could have given that BEXP to Ike/Boyd/Oscar/Mist". But that's just me. --- Back on topic, I feel that the top half of Low is kinda odd. As of right now, it's like this: Low Janaff Shinon Elincia Rolf I don't know where the Janaff > Shinon comparison is, but I'd like to look at it. Rolf is already comparable to Janaff if trained, and the poor hawk's offense will not even improve all that much over the next few chapters. However, I'm unsure of Rolf's position regarding Shinon and Elincia. The former has great early game utility, while the latter has three chapters of being a flying healer. I'd like to think that Rolf might have a case against Shinon, but I'm unsure about Elincia, due to healing utility and all that. All this means is that Janaff just might have to drop if he's not as useful as the other two below him. ETA: When did Lucia move up? I don't recall any arguments about that. o.o

Er, no offense, but did you read my post at all? The issue of Janaff getting and using the Demi Band for around the last four turns is problematic in itself, especially if there are other laguz in play. And once again, the Demi Band will make his offense problems worse. Sure, he won't have to worry about gauge when he's attacking/getting attacked, but when his 2RKOs start going into 3RKOs and even 4RKOs, that brings up the whole thing of his enemy phase not being productive at all. No one is denying that Rolf needs BEXP in the beginning to get started, but I think you're paying too much attention to it. Narga made a good post a few pages back about he actually doesn't take as much BEXP from the others as you might think. A lot of your characters will need a forge at one point at another, and penalizing Rolf because of that is a bit awkward. All Rolf really wants is Rhys, as even a B will give him what he wants. It's the more favorable one since they're both backliners, and Rhys really doesn't care because all of his supports are one-sided. Rolf could get a B Marcia, but that's probably only if she doesn't want Kieran for some reason. Not really that hard. Getting walled off? Chapters 12 through 17 are completely filled with chokepoints, with the exception of 15. I'd see your point if the maps were a lot more open, but as it is, it's easy enough to have characters block off the bridge without knowing it.

I'm going to reference a post Tino made in the first tier list topic here. Scroll up if you need context about it. True, it's not exactly about this whole thing with the hawks, but it does mention the one problem with the Demi Band. In my eyes, either Janaff is holding on to the Demi Band and not using it until he's about to shift back, or another laguz will have to come up to him before that and trade it to him, wasting their player phase if they're not by an enemy. There's a lot of problems associated with both reasonings. True, it can be said that they all take it away from each other. However, the big problem with it is if Janaff holds onto the Demi Band and doesn't use it until he's about to run out of gauge. In that time frame, you could have had Mordecai or Muarim, if either one of them are being played, using it and immediately helping to push the team forward. Lethe too might appreciate wanting to do the same thing Janaff is doing. I'd obviously put more weight on the former situation, and the cost of Janaff just holding onto the band and not using it if other laguz are in play is very large. Having just tested it, a transformed laguz does in fact untransform upon the Demi Band being taken off via trade, their gauge reduced to zero. This makes the latter situation just as bad, because then a laguz unit will have to deprive themselves of the rest of the chapter just to make sure the laguz who took it can have active player/enemy phases. So yes, the strain on the other laguz is just as bad, if not worse. --- Also, getting back on topic about Rolf's leveling after Chapter 11...is it possible that we can all at least agree he's around Level 13 around Ch. 16? I mean, even if all he did was chip enemies in Ch. 11, Ch. 12 is nothing but ravens that give him incredible EXP, and I can easily imagine him getting a level, if not two from it. Ch. 13 has actual beorc enemies with a lot of chokepoints, but he can also help pick off any of the ravens (chipping or actual killing) with help from Astrid and getting another level from it. This would put him about Level 12, or maybe 13 if he somehow got a level in Ch. 11. Ch. 14 comes, and I'm not sure how well he's doing there, even though it's easy to block off the bridges and have him snipe. He'll more than likely make Level 13 here if he was still 12 the previous chapter, but I think Level 14 might be pushing it a bit. And then, of course, comes the desert chapter where almost no one levels due to going for max BEXP, assuming we're doing that. This places Rolf either at Level 13 or 14 going into Chapter 16. Of course, that's just doing a very quick runthrough of the chapters in my head, and I'm probably not remembering some maps correctly.

Ulki is in such a far worse boat than Janaff that I'm surprised that he's even above Nasir or Ena. First off, we'll start with stats. Base Ulki (No Demi Band): 41 HP, 28 Atk, 15 AS, 60 Avo, 18 Def That doesn't seem too bad until you realize that Ulki starts off with only 5 gauge. If we decide to put the Demi Band on him... Base Ulki w/ Demi Band: 41 HP, 25 Atk, 14 AS, 58 Avo, 16 Def That AS of his is atrocious in both forms. He can double a decent amount of stuff that starts on the map he joins in, but that's assuming everyone else doesn't kill them by the time he transforms, if he's forgoing the Demi Band. He won't be able to double any of the reinforcements, and even gets doubled by the ravens. His Def is good for taking a few hits, although his offense will start to really suffer after this chapter. And his Spd growth (60%) isn't even high enough proportional to his EXP gain, due to high base level. I'd say Rolf easily > Ulki. Although I have a question for clarification. When a laguz unequips the Demi Band, does it reduce their gauge to zero and revert them in that turn? I'm unsure on where I heard it. EDIT: Was looking at the wrong chapter information. Oops.

But with the Demi Band, his offensive problems get worse. A lot worse. Let's take a sample from a few chapters. Chapter 19 Base Janaff (Demi Band): 39 HP, 23 Atk, 19 AS, 13 Def, 54 Avo Enemies (excluding the Ravens): He very barely 2RKOs these. He has a 35 displayed hit on him, which changes depending on Biorhythm. 3RKOed by the warrior, although the Killer Axe is troublesome. 3RKOs the Riders and 4RKOs the Wyvern Lord, which is pretty bad in itself, but he's now facing displayed hit rates of 43. 4RKOed by them, but he might want to avoid them. He can't double the first Myrmidon if he has the Demi Band on, so that results in a 2RKO. He can one round the rest of them, but now he's facing 55 displayed hit, so his chances of getting hit are even more prominent. Janaff might be able to take a few hits, but his offense is suffering badly. What's more, Chapter 19 is rife with ballista, so even his movement is limited until they're taken care of. Assuming he got a level sometime in the chapter, he'll now look like this: Janaff level 9 (Demi Band): 40 HP, 23 Atk, 20 AS, 56 Avo, same everything else Not much of a change until he gets another level up. His strength may or may not grow during that level up, but assuming it didn't... Chapter 20: More enemy samples. 2RKOing again while being 5RKOed back at ~47 displayed. Not bad, but he might miss an enemy phase due to the short spear. This is a nightmare for Janaff. He's 3RKOing all but a few, and the last three listed? 4RKO. He still gets 4RKOed back, which is good for tanking, but his damage is negligible. The worst part is that these enemies are the most prominent in this chapter. 2RKOs all of these, but I don't think Janaff wants to go up against them at all, with that laguzslayer and killer bow there. He'll be 3RKOed by the slayer, and more than likely 2RKOed if he gets hit with that bow (nevermind the crit proc, which might one-round him). The point I'm trying to make is that while Janaff can have an existing enemy phase, it does not fix his offensive problems ever. He's having trouble killing anything starting from his join time, and it gets worse due to how slowly he levels. This might not be the case if he decides to go unbanded, but then you run into the problem of gauge AND trying to keep him away from ranged enemies to preserve his player phase.

I don't know...Janaff's gauge really works against him, in my opinion. With the given Atk values, both are pretty much 2HKOing things for the most part. Janaff does have a great durability lead, but I am really iffy on the option of him tanking or something, due to the aforementioned gauge issue. On that note, I need to ask something. Do enemies prioritize laguz units within range, or do they always ignore them unless they can hit them without a counter? It's slipping my mind at the moment. I think I recall someone saying something about them getting bypassed, but I can't remember. =/ Rolf pretty much wins all battle parameters here anyway. Just taking a few glances at the enemy stats for 26, Rolf can ORKO several enemies, barring a few snipers and paladins, and possibly a few laguz unless he has a laguz bow. Janaff, on the other hand, barely 2RKOs the warriors, and it goes into 3RKOs against most of the paladins. Forget about going against the generals or the tigers, as his damage is completely pitiful against those. I'd argue his enemy phase would be more detrimental than not attacking at all, honestly. And this was with a non Demi Band Janaff, by the way. I think the thing that's confusing me is the random levels we seem to be giving Rolf over the course of ~8 chapters. Not to mention the promotion times. I know in Chapter 12, he can easily gain one or two levels due to having (arguably) the best offense there, but after that is a bit hazy. I always assumed that Speedwing was better off on Mordecai, honestly, and I'm not really inclined to give it to Rolf. Enemy phase still counts for something, even if I think it shouldn't be held against archers/snipers all the time. ...eh. *shrugs* Most of the maps from Chapter 11 and onwards to 17 are littered with chokepoints he can take advantage of. Chapter 15 is an exception, but not many really do good there and we're more than likely not trying to kill anything there, so whatever.

Meant to get to this earlier, but got busy. Er...because other units are also in play besides Rolf and Janaff? If any of the laguz units you've had up until Chapter 18 are being used, they really want that Demi Band too. It's funny, because by this time in the game, Astrid is more than likely promoted and would rather work on her axe rank. Sure, she wants a bow for when she runs into wyverns/ravens, but she probably wants to use a hand axe post-haste. 1-2 range is the best, after all. This is such a minor and insignificant point that I don't even know why you brought it up. But I'll answer it anyway. By the time you first get Rolf, you have two strength bands--the Fighter Band and the Knight Band. Since we're BEXPing him anyway, why not slap one of the two onto him? This will more than likely give him an extra point of strength earlier on, something he needs badly. In fact, Jill brings you the Wyvern Band when she joins, which gives +5% Str and Def growths. By then, you'll have three strength bands, and it's very easy to keep at least one of them on Rolf. If, for some reason, you don't want to do this, he can always take one of the two +Spd bands and ensure himself a better AS. Considering all the bands you have, I can't imagine it being hard to keep one of the ones Rolf wants on him. As I said before, I'll wait until a better comparison is made before I start looking more into it. I hope that answers whatever questions you have...probably not, though.

Janaff loses 1 gauge point every time he's in battle, whether he initiates it or not. He loses 3 per turn. If he's vigored and attacks again to finish an enemy he couldn't before, he gets another -1, which would bring his total decrement to -5 that turn. It doesn't seem like much, but it adds up very quickly--especially if there are ranged attackers by him. His gauge will end up depleting faster if he ends up having more than one enemy on enemy phase, ones that he either can't finish off or attack at all, depending on the situation. I went into that because I wanted to try and clarify on how "useful" he is from the start. He's not absolutely stunning, but he can at least weaken things for others, like Ike or Tanith, to kill cleanly. Rolf can do the same while not facing a counter, which also helps because their first shared chapter together is filled with chokepoints that are easily filled. If you're going to say Janaff is useful, you need to give details. How useful is he in battle? Relative to the map and the army? Compared to Rolf? I'm glad you brought that next point up, because I can say that the Demi Band is probably just as much a resource as Rolf getting BEXP and maybe a Seal. You have three (well, four, but I doubt Ulki wants to cut his speed stat even further) other laguz units at that point who really really want that band, as it assures them constant combat. Also, assuming that we have a 15/1 Rolf, he can OHKO the Wyvern Riders with a forged steel without taking a counter. Against the enemies they both double, Rolf will do more damage due to having 27 Atk compared to Janaff's 26. Not much of a difference, but if Rolf used a Strength Band sometime during his leveling, it'll more than likely be more than that. Hell, Rolf still does more damage to the things that neither double (lol ravens), due to having higher Atk and an effective weapon. The things that Janaff double that Rolf can't are the Fighter that starts on the map, the Archer, the two Sword Knights by the boss, the two Lance Knights that show up on turn 7, and the Lance Knight and Paladin that come in on turn 8. The Paladin has an iron bow, however. ... Okay, I think I'm rambling too much. It's late. I think I wanted to say a lot more but it just slipped my mind. I guess I'll wait until more Rolf comparisons are done before I look into anything else.

Are you sure about that? Sure, Janaff does have really great AS and has flier utility, but it's also offset by the fact that his damage is pitiful, and he won't be able to one round most things for quite a while. He also has the problem of his gauge, which while not as problematic as the Cat gauge in Radiant Dawn, will effectively put him out of commission for the rest of the chapter past the fifth turn after he transforms, maybe sooner if he actually fights stuff. Also, you're wrong about his avoid. Ulki is the one who has Vigilance; Janaff gets the fairly inferior Insight, which boosts his Hit. For example, at his join time in Chapter 18, Janaff has 26 Atk and 20 AS. This allows him to double every single enemy in the chapter barring the Raven reinforcements. Despite this, he's only ORKOing the sages, and everything else is a 2RKO except for the Armored Knights, which he shouldn't be attacking anyway. Defensively, he's 3RKO'd at 14 Def and 56 Avo transformed by most enemies. For the most part, he'll be pulling off displayed hit rates within the high 30s/low 50s range, more or less with Biorhythm. This translates to about 29.26% ~ 52.47% real hit, within the range of most beorc enemies in that chapter. The higher end one is the Archer, which he wants to avoid badly. Giving him the Demi Band will give him 23 Atk and 19 AS. While he's still doubling everything but the ravens, the loss of Mt turns some 2RKOs into 3RKOs, especially against the Fighter and the Warrior (which he wants to avoid), and does lol damage against any Armored Knights. His Avo will also decrease to 55, which boosts his chance of getting hit. While it isn't too bad, you have to remember that Janaff is limited to five Player Phase attacks before he reverts, assuming he attacks each turn he's transformed...maybe even less if someone attacks him on enemy phase. It's also worse with the fact that his EXP gain is pitiful upon his join time, and it will be a few chapters before he can really begin to gain levels. EDIT: I didn't include the fact that he can get Vigor'd by Reyson for an extra attack per phase, but that gets into the whole issue of Reyson not Vigoring someone more useful, so I'm not going to go into that.

I think that everyone agreed that Elincia > Rolf in the last topic, mainly because being a subpar healer with flight during the last part of the game is a bit better than having to train Rolf up to be good. Of course, that could very well change, but I'm not holding out hope that it will happen. I can see him above Ulki, though. I just think the hawks in general have way too much going against them in every chapter, with their gauge and triple weakness. But I really think that depends on whatever Rolf's utility was pre-promotion and post-promotion is really better than what Ulki can do. As far as I know, just from a brief glance at the HM stats and Ulki's base stats, Ulki's utility would need to be far better than his combat, IMO.

That's why I said I didn't factor supports in. =p Mia does have an Avo advantage, but I suppose I could grant that Rolf can get a B Rhys or B Marcia. Although he's mostly in it for the Atk, not the Avo.

The idea is that while enemy phase is mostly a good and efficient thing, it's not always the be-all-end-all of a character. Not everybody wants an enemy phase, especially if their defense is pretty bad. Mages usually want to stay away from enemy phase until their defense/avo is up to reliable levels, for example. That said, from the stats posted above, 20/1 Mia would have a base 57 Avo, while 11/1 Rolf would have only 34, without factoring supports/terrain/biorhythm in. Not particularly impressive, but Mia can at least dodge some stuff that Rolf might not. EDIT: To clarify, no enemy phase for archers/snipers definitely is a weakness, but it's not the sole reason why they usually suck. Also, being stuck to swords does kinda suck, as swords pretty much blow in this game compared to other weapons. Not only that, Mia has to share with the other sword units, while Rolf only has to share with Astrid. It's not much of a reason, but there you go.

Vykan's post in the first tier list thread, despite the whole steel bow forge error, details some groupings of enemies and what he can do. I was going through and reworking it, but I got busy with other stuff. Perhaps it's a good starting point?

I've lurked here for quite a while now, but I guess I really didn't get the inclination to join until today. Eh, go figure. My name is Sol, but I also go by the name of Sol Hiryu. I love to write fanfiction, which most people usually don't get to see, but I make sure to post a few things here and there. I've lurked here for a while, so I'm hoping to post a lot more now that I actually have an account. It's nice to meet all of you.

The point is flying over your head so much that I'm getting jet lag. Or are you deliberately being obtuse? No one is saying Rolf is a good unit. Everyone realizes he's pretty bad. However, from the countless pages of posts over the last few weeks, he doesn't quite suck as much as everyone used to think! If we go by your reasoning, everybody under Upper Mid shouldn't be tiered at all. Because what's the use of giving them BEXP is I could "give" it to people much better than them? Soren? Ilyana? Fuck them, I can give all that to someone like Nephenee or Mist, because they're so much better! But that doesn't work. Part of tiering characters is to see how well they do not only relative to the army, but with how much use they can get out of the resources given to them. Opportunity costs and all that, and it's why Rolf is so low in the first place.