BBM

SB, you haven't really said anything for a while. You voted for Darros a while back and then haven't really pursued him or anyone else since.

I'm voting Lucina because it doesn't seem people really want to lynch Darros today, and we need to stack some votes if we're going to get somewhere. We need at least 7 votes for a lynch, I believe, and I don't particularly want to lynch Mancer today. Out of the wagons that present themselves, I find her the worst for reasons I just explained. Additionally, Shin, your playerslot is voting for Mancer right now. It doesn't seem like you find Mancer as scummy as JB did, so you should probably change your vote.

Well I guess it really depends on what route the crossover's gameplay takes, but assuming that the newcomers want to play SMT to familiarize themselves with its gameplay, wouldn't one of the core series be a better recommendation than the Devil Survivor or Persona spinoffs?

I wasn't really attacking Darros's read of Mancer as much as how he presented it. I wouldn't have cared if he'd had a townread on Mancer for other reasons, but "he's playing badly so he's probably town" doesn't make sense to me. Anyways, I don't think that many people really want to lynch Darros today, so ##Unvote, ##Vote: Lucina because I like this wagon more than Mancer's. She just sheeped some people and voted Prims based on something that had already been explained, and then hasn't really bothered to defend herself in any way. Trip to visit my sister didn't end up happening, so I should be here for most of the day. Won't be here for phase end though.

I still don't particularly find Mancer scummy. Meh. Also, my parents are talking of going over and visiting my sister tomorrow, and that'll take the whole day, so I may or may not be there tomorrow.

Voting someone whom you think is mafia is never a bad idea. You want to look townie so that you don't get mislynched and don't waste town's scumhunting time, yeah, but lynching scum is almost always more important. Xinny, what do you want me to say? I've already responded to everything you have against me. The accusation was that I was tunneling, which I was, so I honestly gave the only other thing I had at that moment. Yeah, it was weak. And if I haven't said anything more about Snike, it's because I don't have anything more to say about him. There were a few posts that gave me a bad feeling, and if I haven't mentioned him again, it's because the rest of his posts haven't given me that feeling.

yeah IMO if people are subbing in they should be subbing in for Areox, not because JB and Mancer are mad at each other.

Darros, if you think I'm mafia, why are you so conscious of whether or not I call it an OMGUS if you vote for me? If you think I'm mafia, why are my opinions preventing you from voting for me? Posting townreads isn't really fruitful unless they're about to be lynched or you're about to be lynched. It just tells the mafia who to shoot. It's not really scummy by itself, but it becomes so when you don't have any scumreads either because posting townreads is a lot easier for mafia than posting scumreads, since it's easier than faking. Xinny, you seem to be have drawn your conclusions despite what I'm saying. First off, just because you don't believe my case is legitimate doesn't mean it isn't a strong read on my part. I believe he's the most likely player in the thread to flip scum at the moment. On the other hand, at the time of those early posts of mine with which you find issue, Darros had no scumreads, and was simply defending himself with "I can't find any reads". I repeat, how is that any better? Arguments like "you could be WIFOMing" are ones you use when you're already convinced about something, because by that logic, everything could be WIFOMing. How can someone even look townie on non-role reasons? They can't, because everything pro-town they're doing could just be them trying to get towncred.

It wasn't a defence against Helios or even an attack against Bizz- I was just asking her a question for clarification. I'll repeat, I don't have a strong read or feeling about Snike, just a few posts that feel weird. I was accused of tunneling, and it was true, so I gave my only other read at that point. You say that struggling to find reads on a majority of the game is better than tunneling on one person and giving weak reads on other people- why? How is giving weak reads about people better than giving a strong read on one person and weak reads on others? How is my vote on Snike opportunistic in any way? AFAIK, I was the first person to say anything negative about Snike. What opportunity am I taking advantage of by giving a weak read on him when nobody else is? @Mancer- lol playing mafia to relieve stress

oh you might be right

The thing is that as soon as somebody gets a town role, they become auto-clear even without announcing any results. After they lose the role, they can just be like "I had the role last day" and they become clear. Scum can try and CC and say that they had the role last day, but then it just becomes a 1v1. The mafia have some defence against this through the Janitor, but they can't know if they're hitting a power role unless they're lucky enough to get a DayRolecop result on them that phase.

I don't think that the Darros wagon is at all similar to the Invisible wagon (though I may be biased). The Invisible wagon was at first for him not having any scumreads, and then for only analyzing the people on his wagon even after he did start scumhunting. The wagon on Darros is just for the former. I don't think that people are incapable of scumhunting while defending themselves. How much time do we have left in the phase?

Cam hasn't really offered any opinions despite having several posts about Mancer. His posts analyze several things that Mancer has done and then doesn't really reach any conclusion about Mancer, despite his posts implying heavily he finds him scummy. At the end he just removes his RVS vote and then doesn't vote for Mancer or anybody else.

Other than Darros, I've seen stuff I don't like from Eclipse, Snike, and Kay, though not so much. Lucina's posts are generally lacking in content and somewhat sheepy. Want to see more (or rather, something) from Areox and Helios.

Some of the decisions in that type chart make very little sense. It feels like you added the special Ghost thing just because they're ghosts rather than for any actual reason. And then for some other types it feels like you might have added stuff simply for balance rather than it making any sense at all (Flying being SE against Water and Water being SE against Poison). I can't see why Dragon needs to become a better offensive type by removing Steel's strength against it, although you did nerf its defensive strengths somewhat.

@Darros- I took back the part where I said you called Mancer scummy. That doesn't change why I'm voting for you. I don't really have any more to say in defence of myself. I feel that what I've said about Darros up to this point, if I haven't taken it back, has been justified. Kay's Darros vote rubs me the wrong way because she doesn't really explain what makes her reasoning against Darros stronger than her reasoning against Elie and Prims outlined in the same post, and they're all also one-liners with not a whole lot behind them. Also, Marth, could you edit those ISO links Manix posted into the first post? It'll make them easier to access than if they're just randomly in the middle somewhere.

? I don't feel like I was being defensive at all. IMO I was being more aggressive. Xinny, I wasn't excusing my tunneling, I was saying that prodding me for having only one scumread while his defence against me was "I have no scumreads" was hypocritical. I did acknowledge that I was tunneling, which was why I made an attempt to say my feelings about other people. But all I had was the gut on Snike, so I posted it.

I should probably be sleeping, but let me respond to this first by going back to this post, as it seems to be the root of the suspicion against me at the moment. In the first line, Darros said that he felt that Mancer was jumping around and making himself look bad. Okay, I admit, saying that Darros found Mancer scummy might have been a misinterpretation on my part. However, he did say that he found Mancer's play bad, if not scummy. He then goes on to say that in the other games he's played with Mancer, Mancer flipped town despite similar play. He then says that based on those previous games, he feels Mancer is town. How is this not using Mancer's bad play to justify a townread on him? Also, Eclipse, I dislike parts of your case against me for meta reasons because I know you've told me several times in the past (SF2 comes to mind) that priorities from person to person change. I'm sorry, but I didn't, and don't find Mancer's word nitpicking scummy. I think he should be focusing himself on other things, yeah, but you telling me that I'm not allowed to have a null read on him irks me heavily. I find the things Darros has done scummy because despite having the most posts in the game, I feel like he's said really little. I didn't like his reasoning for the Mancer townread in his first post. When I pressured him to come up with actual scumreads, he first said that he didn't feel there was enough for him to go off properly, and then once he did say something, it was all about things from the early stages of the game that he could have said earlier anyways. Also frustrates me that a lot people prodded Lucina for not paying attention to Prims's explanation about the "Levity is mafia, vote Helios" post, but didn't really say anything about Darros basically agreeing with the same point. Anyways, I'll respond to the other stuff and try to reread the thread in the morning.

That post basically said that he thought Mancer had been playing badly, but that was just the same as he always played, so he actually thought that Mancer was town. That is waffling IMO, because you're using his bad play as a reason to call him townie. So if he flips town you can say "lolMancer" and if he flips scum you can say "oh well I thought his play was bad..." Bizz, if Helios pulled the self-vote in a game where he was town, why does it bother you more here? I like how Marth just didn't even list a good quarter of the playerlist.

Are we really going to do the "do something dumb on purpose to get a reaction" thing?

I find it really odd how Darros said several times how he was having trouble finding anything in the first five pages, and then when he does come up with something, it's something that's one of the very first non-RVS things to happen, and something about which several people commented. I don't understand why he couldn't have made the exact same post several pages back instead of saying there was nothing to go off. Also, Darros, you don't need to vote for me for it to be an OMGUS. You took my attack against you and used it as an attack against me. That's an OMGUS. Lucina's bit about me is sort of funny because she says she can't see my point and then states my exact point. Darros saying Mancer was playing badly is what I was referring to. Lucina's vote (and all the votes/attacks against Prims for the "Levity is mafia" followed by the Helios vote) feel really easy to me.

Your post is both OMGUS and hypocritical, because you want me to be okay with you having no reads, and then call me out for only having one read. One read is still better than zero, no? Tunneling isn't the same as not scumhunting. Anyways, something about Snike's posts rubs me the wrong way but I'm not sure what it is. I guess I didn't really like how his last posts where he misread something Mancer said and then just sort of twisted it into his original case.

At the point when I voted for him, it felt like Darros's entire activity was just announcing a townread, and keeping a vote on an inactive. After that he had a prod against Scorri which I didn't like at all because it called her out solely for the claim. I can understand not trusting her based on the claim because it's an easy mafia fake, but so are a lot of other roles. Finding someone suspicious solely on that is really weak. Then he took that back and actually said he had a slight townread on her from the interaction. I don't feel like he's actually trying to scumhunt. He also dropped the j00 vote weirdly- it felt like he was doing it solely because of the pressure. And he didn't replace it with a vote for anyone else either. As for Mancer, null read because I haven't actually seen anything scummy he's done. I feel like people are overanalyzing his posts, idk. I'm not really getting anything from them. As for Scorri I kind of let her pass because of the Numbers claim. If I were part of a 4p mafia, I wouldn't fake Numbers at all, because 4 is that awkward number where it's too small to know for sure that there isn't another team, but it's too big to know for sure that there is another team.

The bold says that you think what he's doing is scummy, or at least bad play. However, you say he's town and don't vote for him because he's done it as town. But meta in that sense is bad because if Mancer looks scummy as town, why would he look any better as mafia? Saying lolMancer is a bad reason for having him as a townread, because when he actually is scum, he's going to slide by you. And prodding inactives as a serious vote and not an RVS at this stage in the game is not very useful because the most likely explanation is that j00 hasn't seen the thread yet. Voting for him allows you to get around having to actually scumhunt while still appearing like you're doing something.

##Unvote, ##Vote: Darros Says what Mancer is doing is scummy, doesn't vote for him on terms of him doing this all the time (boy who cried wolf argument), and then just stays with his inactive player prod.