Dean

Not much love for Amber in here. With promotion, his base stats are good enough to ORKO generics and bosses straight after his join, and high strength + ability to inherit Sigurd skills lets him fill a niche for... basically the whole game. Amber, Citrinne and Chloé are usually my recommendations for the first three Master Seal, with Alear getting the chapter 10 one.

Yeah it's kind of like, can he do it: yes; do you have to do it: no; should you do it: up to the player (but my personal preference is yes). Like he's hardly the MVP of these chapters or doing anything particularly unique or unreplaceable, but he is finding a way to contribute without sacrificing turncount or reliability and setting himself up for later in the game pretty well. For the list as a whole, from an efficiency standpoint, I think I'd echo what's been said in this thread previously. Amber, Citrinne and Vander all a bit low (Vander in particular), with Fogado, Veyle, Goldmary and Lapis standing out as the ones I think are a bit high.

On the surface I think this is a fair enough opinion, but we do have ways to feed Kagetsu kills pretty quickly in C12 and C13 and he makes pretty good use of the exp to slaughter the rest of the game. This playthrough is a pretty good demonstration: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zyWslFpDNA&list=PLarkWv8c6mgn8AEosaTvDq3B5lqGUJ9hE&index=14

Uhh yeah didn’t this thread used to have 100+ pages?

Hm. Are polls the best way to decide things? Most of the tier lists we've hosted on SF in the past have usually had the TC update the list in the OP responding to discussion in the thread. In practice, I've been very lazy with the thread (I got caught up in a game of forum mafia, sorry). If users think there are pressing issues with the list in the OP I'm happy to act on them. Although I'm still thinking that the overall structure might need an overhaul; I think S would look best if it was less populated (leaving Camilla, Azura and maybe Corrin) and units in other tiers would be pushed down through the flow-on effect. I wish there was more footage / detailed playlogs of this game available.

Gave Mozu a try. Was hoping to give Benny and Keaton a try as well if I ever get up to C13/C14 to give a proper response to earlier posts in the thread; I can theorise that they're bad fine but I don't think I've actually tried to use them on Lunatic more than once. The ignore list might help improve your enjoyment of the forum.

Are you in the Discord? A lot of active posters in there so it may be easier to sway opinions. Or not; I know people can be stubborn with opinions. I know I am. Haven’t posted in a while as I was hoping to have a quick play through to get some practical experience with some of the more contentious units. Unfortunately I’ve been a little busy and haven’t found much time to play. So I’ll just post the finished Reddit list. S: Corrin, Jakob 1, Azura, Camilla, Xander A: Niles, Kaze, Leo B: Felicia 1, Silas, Elise, Effie, Beruka, Gunter C: Arthur, Nyx, Selena, Peri, Keaton, Shura, Flora D: Odin, Laslow, Benny, Charlotte, Felicia 2, Jakob 2, Izana E: Mozu

Keaton's on track for C rank as well which is a big ??? from me. I think what you do with S tier kind of sets up the rest of the tier list. We could keep it fairly exclusive, e.g. Camilla and Azura are the two best units in the game; or we can keep the tiers roughly the same size (add in Corrin, Jakob and Niles like the current list); or I've seen arguments in various places to include more units such as Xander, Leo and even Kaze which seems kind of disgusting to me but who am I to judge? I was guilty of the Selena to B faction but Effie getting into B kind of opens the floodgates.

The disagreements we might be having seem to be a difference in tiering philosophy. The list being created now seems to be coming from a playthrough mindset where "Corrin, Jakob and Camilla are the best units so we focus available resources into them, while other units receive limited resources and are tiered based off whatever niche supporting role they can perform with no resources." I'm never quite sure how to view opportunity cost when it comes to tier lists. In today's round ft. Laslow, we saw a lot of discussion about Ninja Laslow. Say, hypothetically, I ranked Heart Seal Corrin S tier, Heart Seal Jakob S tier, Heart Seal Laslow C tier and Mercenary Laslow D tier. Should it be assumed that Corrin and Jakob, being the better units, will always receive the Heart Seal, leaving Laslow in D tier? Or can we say that Laslow is a capable user of Heart Seal, but not as good as Corrin and Jakob, which is already reflected in that they're in S and we're arguing him for C?

Thought I'd add my thoughts on the votes that had happened so far. S: Corrin, Jakob 1, Azura, Niles No issues here. A: Felicia 1, Kaze I think Felicia is closer to B. But I can understand A. Kaze I keep changing my opinion on but looking through the maps he's available for he has something useful to do in pretty much all of them so A seems fine. B: Silas, Elise, Effie, Gunter I don't like Silas and Effie in the same tier at all; I think Silas should be A or Effie should be C. Elise is an interesting case of opportunity cost, but I think Troubadour Elise is probably C or something. Gunter's good and I should probably move him to B in the list in the OP. C: Arthur E: Mozu Fair enough I guess. Today's round looks like C Odin and B Nyx which I would switch but w/e...

Sure, I'll add them. It looks like the stickied "useful links" thread hasn't been updated in a very long time.

Yes, this is my main line of thought, although I'm not sure about useless in C10; she can take tonics and a Vulnerary and clear out the west side easily enough if one wants. I would imagine she's mid-tier in an LTC list, but the more we slow down the worse Nyx becomes; being useful in four maps isn't an especially impressive contribution in standard efficiency. I often see in Discord arguments like "Heart Seal her and make her Leo's wife after C13" when that carries a chunk of opportunity cost (Heart Seal), can be replicated by a big number of other +Spd / +Mov pairs we have available at that point in the game and still doesn't give Leo wings. On the other hand, being useful for four maps is more maps than Benny/Keaton and friends in D are useful in.

So I've read through the arguments in this thread, and made some adjustments. Moved Niles from A to S. Move Silas from B to A. Moved Xander from S to A. Moved Odin from C to B, for now. I was curious about his mid-game (I already know his earlygame with Nosferatu is very solid). Some KO thresholds: C14 Archers: 20 Atk, 17 AS C14 Oni Savage: 21 Atk, 16 AS C16 Dark Mage: 27 Atk, 14 AS C16 Fighter: 23 Atk, 19 AS C16 Berserker: 27 Atk, 21 AS C16 Mercenary: 24 Atk, 21 AS He hits all of these pretty easily... Moved Leo to B. Added Jakob 2 to D. I have Felicia 2 in C right now, and I figured worse chip damage + weaker personal skill warranted a tier difference. Added Shura to D. Other things on my mind: Will have another look over Silas and Odin debates, as their position is still a bit up in the air. Kaze brings a lot of positive qualities, but he might be niche enough to drop to B. Elise is very close to A atm. Selena's probably not far off B. Gunter's another interesting one, from the current C rank. I think Peri's very underwhelming and close to D. Nyx can be pretty useful for a few chapters which is probably more than the rest of D. Voting on the Reddit list is starting within the next 12 hours I think? If people were interested in contributing to that.

I can see Odin up to B. I'm fairly bullish on Odin myself but I know the Conquest community in general is kind of iffy on him (except Serenes Forest which seems to love him). He's comparable to Leo in everything except Magic - he can be kind of borderline on picking up 2HKOs. If we're attributing paralogue loot to a father's tier position then that definitely favours Odin. I can see Leo down to B. Like above, he's statistically comparable to Odin - he doesn't need a forge and is more reliable at picking up 2HKOs but loses 6 maps of availability. I can see Xander down to A. He joins later than the rest of S, and unlike them he offers no utility outside of combat, outside of Shelter. He's also ground-locked to utilise his strongest combat unlike Corrin/Jakob/Camilla which hurts in maps like C20 and C24. I think Elise depends on our stance on visiting online castles. If we allow it, a lot of the opportunity cost of reclassing her goes. I don't care too much for Troubadour Elise but I can see that Wyvern Elise would be a tier above Leo, if we're moving him to B. She is a bit of an Arthur hog though. My guy feel on Shura would be C or D. His averages are comparable to Niles (a Niles that chose the weaker promotion path...) but he has about half the availability and no capture utility, in exchange for D staves.

@Shoblongoo My two main gripes with Troubadour Elise are probably: Physical durability. Lily's Poise mandates you be adjacent to the unit in question, unlike Azura's Sing. This means that Elise can only buff units that are already on the very edge of an enemy's range, which is very restricting for the positions you can put her in / the units she'd be buffing. Her Demoiselle is a little more flexible. Levelling speed. Staff EXP is pretty slow to gain, which impacts her ability to promote quickly and her offensive capabilities after promotion. I will admit it's been a long time since I've used Troubadour Elise in one of my playthroughs so I might be underselling her. The unit I'd think most comparable to her is probably Felicia 1, who I also have in B; where Elise has 1-2 more move and better combat after promotion, Felicia's personal skill is much easier to use and she can actually fight things in the early game (dependent on Corrin marriage to actually fight WELL, but still...). I'd have her in B at the moment but curious to see if others have anything to say on the matter. -- Actually Johnnie thinks she's A so I might be outnumbered. @Johnnie Capture is certainly factored into account when tiering Niles. The main issue is probably the stance on visiting online castles; if we can't gather resources effectively we have to spend a lot of IRL time to persuade prisoners which is a bit of a downer. With unrestricted resources Niles is borderline S - capture utility is fantastic.

Fair enough. I was conflicted between S and A at first, mainly for seal competition and being dependent on Corrin marriage for access to his best classes. But there probably isn't that much competition for early seals (especially if online shops are allowed) and even as Paladin the extent to which he outclasses every non-Camilla early-joining unit is absurd. I'll move him to S. If you have time, I wouldn't mind a bit more explanation on some of these. From my point of view: I could see Leo in B (being a tier ahead of Silas might be kind of strange), but at this stage I'm happy with him in A. He pretty much mandates a speed pair-up, but otherwise hits very solid offence / bulk / movement parameters. On the other hand, a lot of mid-game maps are not very kind to either mages or cavalry... Beruka has workable offensive stats and can fly without any seals. I think she's a step above the units in C at the moment. I don't think Effie is very good - seems very reliant on early promotion. Silas seems like a better version except for a few points of defence, and I think for the most part your units aren't really struggling for defence; so it would be weird for them to be in the same tier. Benny seems to lack good movement / offences (outside of Beast Killer) to be moved higher; similar to Effie, there are units that can reach appropriate defensive thresholds while also hitting good offensive ones as well. Keaton's probably not dissimilar; he does out-stat a lot of units but I'm not sure that's enough to make up for the shortcomings of being a dog. Lower availability compared to the units above him doesn't help.

Hi friends and enemies, I know that deep down we all love tiering discussions, and with the Fire Emblem subreddit preparing to re-tier Conquest I thought this was an appropriate time to open this thread. The format being used: Units are placed in one of six tiers (S, A, B, C, D, E). Units are not ordered within tiers. Tier descriptions: S (fantastic): Almost always very useful, with very few to no flaws. They may also provide a valuable niche, or just perform what they do the best. They make important contributions during a majority of the game. A (great): Very useful alotta the time, with a couple minor detriments that don’t really hold them back. They may fill a good niche or perform what they do splendidly. They make important contributions during most of the game, and are still valuable in maps where they aren’t terribly important. B (good): Pretty useful, with some minor detriments that hold them back somewhat. They may fill a niche, but someone might do it better, and they can perform well if given the opportunity. They make important contributions in a good amount of maps, and can be useful in others, but they may not be useful in some maps as well. C (AOK): Can be useful, with detriments that hold them back. They might fill a niche, even if its not useful, and they can perform decently if given the investment. They make important contributions in some maps, but aren’t very important for a majority of the game. D (iffy): Not all that useful, with possible major detriments holding them back. They do not fill any required niches and take more investing than most to perform adequately or not all that solidly. There are significant parts of the game where they do not contribute meaningfully, but there are a few areas that they can be useful in. E (lame): Substantially worse than the rest of the cast. There are very few places where they are actually useful, and they can be actively difficult units to use effectively. Caveats: Game is played on Lunatic, Classic. Jakob and Felicia are each tiered twice (once for early-joining and once for late-joining). Mozu, Flora and Izana are tiered as if they join as early as they can. Recruitment cost is not factored in to a unit's position. Child units are not tiered. The game counts as starting from Branch of Fate (chapter 6). Unit contributions prior to this point are not counted towards tier position. DLC (including free DLC), path bonuses, visitor items and battle items are not included. Fighting in online castles is not included. Units to be tiered: Discussion points: Visiting online castles. Banned? Allowed fully? Allowed with restrictions? Optional maps (paralogues, invasions). Are they considered to be done? Skipped? Does a units performance within a paralogue affect their tier position? Are fathers credited for the loot obtained within a paralogue? How fast is 'efficient'? Current list: S: Corrin, Jakob 1, Niles, Azura, Camilla A: Silas, Kaze, Xander B: Felicia 1, Elise, Odin, Beruka, Leo C: Effie, Arthur, Selena, Laslow, Peri, Gunter, Felicia 2, Izana D: Nyx, Charlotte, Benny, Keaton, Jakob 2, Shura, Flora E: Mozu Feel free to @ me if you want anything explained! Link to the previous tier list for reference: https://www.reddit.com/r/fireemblem/comments/5i8899/rfireemblem_made_a_fates_conquest_tier_list_20/ Average stat calculator: http://zekareisoujin.github.io/FEFatesStatCalc/ Enemy stats: https://www.dropbox.com/s/81z5gox8nj5oxyd/Fates enemy stats (lunatic).xlsx?dl=0

I remember dondon posting his recommendations a few years ago... I think I agree with him on most counts. Quoted below: I think you should stealth C10; there are turn-by-turn guides out there so it's not too hard to do. Getting BEXP instead of CEXP is nice because it's easier to rig level ups with. C15... is that the desert one? From memory that's not really worth it. I made a Sheet with chances to cap (stat-boosters and growth bands taken into account). If you're interested: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pWfTJ6n-9IAF4iY-3jOzt3Qdt5Hh6Unw4ijnI8NuYt4/edit?usp=sharing https://www.fireemblemwod.com/fe9/aprovechar-exp-de-la-base.htm is also a useful page for saving a bit of bonus experience. (the number in the second column is how much BEXP you should add at once; the number in the right-most column is the BEXP you'd save over that level)

Exp is the rank you should be most worried about. I've been watching your videos and you look to only be about 30 EXP above the current 5-star requirements, and EXP rank gets much harder to maintain the further into the game you get. (the EXP requirement for maps like 32 and Final are absurdly huge). You'd really want to have a good 23x/24/25.

335 turns is accurate.

The game gives you a fair bit of leeway with the money you can spend. For example, in my run I went Linus / Kenneth routes and went to all gaiden except 19xx and 32x, so to five-star funds I'd need 847,200G in assets. The sum of all obtainable items / gold on this route is 1,040,880G (excluding minor stealables and the C30 treasure), so you have ~194,000G to do what you want. Any time the game dumps raw gold onto you, such as the C22 10,000G chest or the 30,000G from C31x, Silver Card essentially doubles the value of these. So that adds an extra 40,000G. And then any time you win at the arena or any minor stealables you do collect all help. Hammerne lets you be a little more liberal with a couple of expensive items of your choice. Apparently I killed 1,330 enemies over the course of the game... if you assume I generally 3HKOed enemies (2HKO is probably more accurate but let's be pessimistic for this assumption) with a 20G per use weapon like Javelin (most weapons easily attainable don't cost more than 20G per use) that's about 80,000G used on weapons killing enemies. So... we'd have about 154,000G surplus to use on stat boosters, promotion items, staves, Farina, using expensive weapons, or selling stuff earlygame before you get the Silver Card. In my game I only promoted five characters and used three stat boosters (if I knew I'd clear funds so easily I definitely would've used more) so you can probably see why I was so much over.

I'd usually recommend recruiting Farina; Exp is a much harder requirement to fulfil than Funds, so an unpromoted unit with actual good bases is so valuable. In my last ranked run I recruited her and still ended up about 22000G above the funds requirement.

Spear Master Rinkah. Close to the weirdest suggestion I've heard on this forum. Poor old LoneRecon400, got stuck in an argument with Levant.

I like it a lot, but it plays very differently to Awakening Lunatic.

Had a quick look at a Birthright save file I had (Endgame). My Ryoma is pretty much right on his averages. In the very worst-case scenario, he's 3HKOed (Generals). This is his worst match-up, but if for some reason you're desperate to throw Ryoma against a group of three Generals then he'll come out of it alive (taken into account that Dual Guard means that he's blocking between 33%-50% of attacks) and with the Generals either dead or half-dead. Against the "swords that are hard to reliably dodge", he's 5HKOed by Heros, 9HKOed by Bow Knights and 6HKOed by Dark Knights. So... how much defensive prowess does a unit need to have "good" defences? And this is pretty much the least favourable scenario for him. Considering that: I am not using a defensive pair-up in this scenario I am using his most physically-fragile class, Swordmaster (he can cross to Master of Arms for more HP and Defence, or can build a support with Silas for Paladin and Great Knight access) Have not used defensive stat boosters on him (he's a decent recipient for, say, the C22 Dracoshield, considering how much combat he likely faces) Enemy offence typically scales faster than player unit defence - take a point from earlier in the game and these figures would look even more favourable.