incognit0

Regardless I don't think Gatrie is exactly amazing at the beginning. Good, but not amazing. In other news, I was hoping to start this weekend. Doesn't look like that is going to happen.

Boyd is definitely better. The extra move and leveling speed is worth it.

Laura

Nailah. Perhaps a bit too early, but she is amazing and is available for difficult maps.

I don't care. To be honest I thought you were being a little bit too harsh on that one.

I think you mean 2-2 in Exception 5. Also, is Lucia able to fight at all (ie. Enemy Phase)? Also, in Exception 6, is a 6 move unit an option as a substitute? Just wondering.

Titania. Don't know if that was wise

That is what the wording would seem to imply and I also believe the precedent is there in other drafts, too.

The drafting is snake style, except it switches order for the last round (I believe).

I'll join. It may take me a while to finish though

Alright yeah, that whole argument doesn't work. Fiona's minor utility is still more useful and necessary for efficiency compared to Meg's combat. Sure, we can pretend like some idiot is going to use Meg for combat, but it doesn't mean like it is going to help our efficiency. Fiona helps our efficiency in rather minor but quantifiable ways mostly by utilizing her movement and canto. Canto is remarkably useful in and of itself, but generally Jill is off doing far more important things so all the little tasks fall to Fiona.

RIght now she is directly above Lyre, which is kinda a joke. I would suggest for Bottom Tier: Fiona Astrid Meg Kurth/Oliver

Essentially, I am fine if people value the one moment of chip and the Danved drop over Fiona's torching, gauge and Micaiah rescuing shenanigans (I prefer Fiona) but either way they should be on top of bottom.

Um, wow. By the start of turn 3 the player should have been able to force the Laguz back into the swamp in every direction except for below the dead tree in the east (where only two laguz spawn anyways as long as you don't stick your neck out) and since the laguz move 1 space per turn in swamp there are maybe 5 spaces that are not guaranteed to be safe. Use the two fighters up north and west of the dead tree thingy, and then use Sothe and Zihark to block the east.

I rescue the bishop with Fiona to better direct him towards Jill when she goes off far away; however, now that you mention it, it does seem fairly superfluous. First of all, I already knew Leonardo was better than Meg (yes, you do usually need to use multiple characters to detransform laguz) and secondly, Micaiah's staff range is undeniably useful. If you are completing part 1 fast, Micaiah has crappy magic. And Jill, Nolan and Volug all want heals from Micaiah to get extra player phases where they aren't healing; on 3-12, player phases can be used to pick off units straying towards the back line, units with 1-2 range, units with a vulernary, units blocking the pathing, etc. So, my personal preferences aside, you agree that Astrid's chip contributes nothing to making a clear of 3-9 faster or safer? Because that is my definition of zero efficiency.

Alright Fiona: 3-6: She can light a torch and get two locations on the same turn. As in, reveal possibility of enemy laguz in the FoW, then move to reveal laguz for Jill to attack. Also, she is the best at rescue dropping the priest every other turn (I am assuming the player is competent and switches the Allies from Target Corner to Roam every other turn as needed for extra heals from the bishop). Also, Fiona can lower gauge, move out of the way and let someone else in. All of these things help unit survivability in a chapter where that is in extreme need (if you went fast enough in part 1). 3-12: She extends Micaiah's staff range by five. Micaiah can then go out five spaces into enemy threat ranges, and get rescued by Fiona. Someone like Aran then drops Micaiah of for repeat next turn. Since it is nearly impossible to form defensive lines out east, this is very valuable in chapter where once again your units will need to be healed because their avoid is questionable. As for Astrid's chip. Her chip is literally not used at all in 3-9; I believe I completed the map the last four times without even deploying her (my time is worth something, therefore I didn't care for her movement phase). Also, she chips one Bowgun Warrior on turn 3 in 2-3 that I forgot about, but other than that, rescue dropping and attracting the attention of some boulders Astrid does nothing. Which is, in my opinion, not worth as much as Fiona's utility.

Hahaha this whole chipping thing that doesn't really exist. Rescue-dropping Danved in 2-3 is real, I grant you, but Fiona can do more little tricks: rescue dropping (useful in 3-6 and 3-12), gauge lowering, and torching lighting.

I have been arguing Fiona to the top of bottom (I would even be ok with behind Astrid, although Fiona is still clearly more useful) but people stopped listening. Fiona has tangible, dependable utility that ANYONE who is attempting to low turn would be foolish not to use.

In my efficiency playthrough, I hated having to 2 turn this map. It was a major pain dealing with all the stationary enemies with all the royals and everything (and Giffca(T) could ORKO cover generals). Nice job.

I agree with Mercenary Raven on the RNG thing. Jill needed every point of Str to 2RKO Ike in 3-13, so the 1-2 drop definitely paid itself back. In 3-6 I decided to save the Brave Axe for later, and could not put anything into Nolan so I was actually pretty happy with 10 turns and Jill being 14/18 by the end. The team I had could not have done it faster than possibly 9 turns without shifting the skills around, and then Jill would not have been able to 2RKO Ike because I would have to focus kills to Volug. Jill was essentially the only fighter in 3-12, otherwise I would have had her take Beastfoe and Brave Axe to absolutely wreck 3-6 because she could limit her exposure plus had awesome defenses. You are probably right in that I could have saved turns, however, considering that I needed Jill to nearly singlehandedly clear the rest of DB part 3 I doubt it would have been more than 1 turn. I now regret going for the Drop/Draco but in I would bet that they shaved a turn considering a drop essentially gives me another Part 4 fighter (Ulki). Stat boosters as far as I remember: Jill - Drop, Draco, Robe, Robe Titania - Robe, Draco Janaff & Ulki - Drop Haar - Speedwing Skrimir - Speedwing Boyd - Speedwing Talisman was sold. BTW I just copied Xander's 3 turn of 3-1, so he deserves the credit for an awesome strategy on that map. Yeah I think my DB part 3 could maybe be a turn faster, but going through part one that fast only allows one of Nolan/Jill and Volug to be trained, so it is rather tough. I know for a fact that on 3-12 turn 4 I just made it, having two extra units that would have suicided into Jill.

Thank you, it has been added. That explains a lot now. One more thing that I thought I should mention was Jill's lead over Haar in overall kills. Going into Part 4, Haar was fairly Str screwed, to the point where Jill had tied him. She also led him in every other stat but Skl, and the stat lead plus the fact that I gave her the Boots ended up getting her more combat and more kills.

HM Efficient Transfers Playthrough Turns: 1-P 7 turns 2-P 9 turns 3-6 10 turns 4-2 5 turns 1-1 5 turns 2-1 6 turns 3-7 13 turns 4-3 5 turns 1-2 7 turns 2-2 4 turns 3-8 4 turns 4-4 6 turns 1-3 6 turns 2-3 5 turns 3-9 5 turns 4-5 1 turn 1-4 4 turns 2-E 3 turns 3-10 4 turns 4-E 7 turns 1-5 6 turns 3-P 7 turns 3-11 4 turns Total 194 turns 1-6 6 turns 3-1 3 turns 3-12 4 turns 1-7 5 turns 3-2 2 turns 3-13 2 turns 1-8 4 turns 3-3 5 turns 3-E 4 turns 1-9 8 turns 3-4 5 turns 4-P 2 turns 1-E 6 turns 3-5 2 turns 4-1 3 turns *Maps where I think I could have shaved turns: 1-2,1-8 & 1-9 combo, 2-E, 4-3, DB part 3 (maybe), 3-9 (with a Marcia Transfer) is a link to the Epilogue. There have been a lot of efficiency Playthrough, but I wanted to make mine as fast as I could without spending loads of time trying to make a low % strategy work. Here are my transfers:Transfers Jill - HP, Str, Skl, Spd, Def Haar - Spd (I gave him all three speedwings) Nephenee - Str, Skl, Spd Ike - HP, Str, Skl, Spd, Def, Res Titania - Spd Oscar - Str, Skl, Spd, Def Boyd - HP, Str, Skl, Spd Mia - Str, Skl, Spd Ulki - Str Tanith - Str, Skl, Spd Giffca - Str One thing I would like to note is the consistency of the RNG. Although all I am going on is a hunch from playing this game 11 times, I believe the RNG is actually slightly predictable. I have found that often I will continually fail or continually succeed despite low % chance of said occurrence. For example, my 4 turn clear of 1-4 requires a certain very specific crit by Ilyana, and I never failed to get it in 4 tries of the map. Similarly, Ike died four times in a row on 4-E-1 while he only had a 17% chance of death. It has some peculiar results, but in general the bad and the good luck evens out. Part 1 1-4: Sothe went south then east, while everyone else heads north. First time Ilyana got a crit that allows me to finish the map in 4 turns, but I messed up Nolan's placement. Second and third time I got the crit again, but couldn't get Beastfoe with one shot of best bio and one of regular biorhythm. Fourth time I got it 1-6: I took extra time on 1-6-2 to give Jill the boss kill; she had been sealed at the beginning of 1-6-1. The boss kill was probably a bad idea. 1-8 & 1-9: I struggled to 4 turn 1-8 even when Sothe had Celerity. I have never been able to get 11 turns combined on these two, and I suspect it will be a while before I get it. Part 2 (I hate part 2) 2-E I hate this map (along with the rest of part 2) and have never been able to get the drop and draco in two turns. So I spent an extra turn and grabbed Nullify as well. Everything here was put to good use, especially the drop, but I probably should've done this one faster. I never even entertained the idea of a one-turn clear but judging from all these drafts (despite the fact that they are NM) it seems possible. Part 3 3-1: Used Xander's strategy for a three turn, not of my own making. 3-6: Jill got a lot of experience this way, and she was also Def blessed so I wasn't going to restart this one. To be honest, I believe 16 turns DB part 3 is my record anyways. 3-8 and 3-10: These maps were pretty simple. Just charge your best units at the boss area ASAP. Janaff/Haar/Titania were used in the Reyson diamonds for both maps, but I used Boyd in 3-8 and Oscar in 3-10. Janaff was quickly transformed in 3-8 with a 0-damage trick. Boyd was great in 3-8 because it was a smaller map, but I didn't promote him to ORKO generals. Instead I used Celerity Titania who performed capably. 3-10 was really simple. Boyd cleared the south on his own, Oscar plus the Big Three went up with Reyson and destroyed the boss area. Oscar was pretty weak so he stayed away from the boss and just used a horseslayer to kill paladins. Ulki and Ike had to help the CRK kill their couple of halberdiers; Ulki had Wildheart in both maps for strike purposes. 3-11: This was an easy four turn. I gave Haar pure water turn 1. Next turn Sigrun gave Ike to Haar, then he killed a general, and cantoed next to a wall. Leanne vigored, Haar moved forward. Then turn three Haar dropped Ike, who was equipped with Pass, near the boss area. Haar killed Goran, Ike seized. Easy chapter if you give Haar Celerity and Savior. 3-12: Really, it just came down to having epic Jill. Having poured all my resources into her, I gave her paragon. She got all kills but four; Volug killed someone PP turn 4, Tauroneo killed someone and Leo and Nolan killed the pegs that fly up towards you. 3-13: Jill got the boots and Pass. Brave Axed Ike turn two, then he suicided EP. She needed Paragon last map to do it, because she needed to get to 29 Str. I had purposefully not leveled Ike very much (Blossom is good) in order to let Jill kill him; he only had 25 Def. 3-E: This was actually fairly difficult to four turn, for me anyways. The general idea is to kill the sleep staffer turn two and then get in the boss' area turn 4. Unfortunately Jill kept killing my units before I could recruit her. After starting turn five with 77 and 78 killed, I decided to simply put a full health Boyd loaded with Resolve and Paragon, and a ton of hand axe forges into the boss area. Jill almost killed him, but he managed to survive and get me to 80. Part 4 Main Fighters: Silver: Naesala, Janaff, Skrimir, Haar, Jill Greil: Ike, Titania, Nailah, Boyd, Ulki Hawk: Tibarn, Oscar, Mia Out of all the units up there, Oscar and Mia were the worst; however, they only had one chapter of fighting, and they had Reyson so it worked. Greil also had Volug who saw some minor combat with his 42 Atk and 34 Spd. 4-P: I hate this chapter. Two turns is pretty well documented though. Only requires four fighters, I didn't waste a stone use on Janaff. 4-1: I sent Boyd west and Nailah east. Titania got celerity and killed the druids on turn one EP, although she needed a pure water. Turn two she healed, headed back, got vigored, and then equipped the Brave Axe parked between Catalena and two generals. On turn three I only had to kill a couple of guys. Nailah needs to use her player phases on turns two and three to kill the short Spear and the horseslayer generals respectively, while Boyd, who had Resolve, killed the bishop turn two. Mist and Rhys were incredibly useful. Mist used the torch turn one to reveal the bishop for Boyd, then after he killed him turn two, she moved to reveal the west bishop for Ulki. Rhys had to sleep a warrior turn one and rescue Rafiel turn two to keep him safe. Basically, this chapter is all about protecting and using Rafiel. 4-3: I am fairly certain that I could have done this a turn faster had Janaff not died, but I didn't really want to restart considering Naesala found the Laguz Gem turn 4. 4-4: There are many different types of 6 turn clears, but here I loaded up Nailah with Celerity and Pass so she can kill the sleep staffer by turn 3. I used rescue twice on this map, once to rescue Titania up the ledge, and again to rescue Boyd back towards the main group after he killed the west treasure room on turn 1 EP. Heather traded for rescue, got Mist to hammerne it, then headed back to the treasure room to send it to the convoy. 4-E-1: Wow I hated this map. At first I came up with several strategies that needed Naesala to proc Tear/Adept a ridiculous amount of times, then Ike died four times in a row when he had a 17% chance of death, then I ended up one player phase action short of routing in two turns. Finally by tweaking Naesala's placement I was able to squeak out a 2 turn. I would like to thank everyone who has done an efficiency run, especially dondon, because many of my ideas and strategies have been drawn directly or indirectly from what others have posted.

Exactly. Mostly because one, it was Fenrir, and two, there was the smiley afterwards, it seemed to another opinion that with <<I'm still right and you're wrong>> Fenrir was leaving the comment in a lighthearted manner not meant to be taken seriously as it related to the argument. I honestly don't know how Fenrir was trolling. Flaming is a different question. I would venture to say, having watched and closely followed the developments, that both of you escalated the argument gradually and equally. However, I don't think either poster wanted to flame the other; this also seemed fairly clear that both of you merely felt very strongly about your side of the argument. It is much as Radiant Kitty quotes dondon in his signature: It is difficult to convey tone across the internet, but I don't believe Fenrir flamed or trolled, although I understand RFoF's position/point of view.

To me it just looks like Fenrir is agreeing to disagree. He simply thinks that part of the spirit of the draft is allowing the game to force penalties on the player, and you have expressed your disagreement: To be honest, I think Fenrir has a point; less free units and more penalties across the board adds more complexity to the choice of each draftee, now that they are picked not just on their merit but also on the ability to avoid penalties. I can certainly see how people would enjoy the extra complexity, but you forcing your opinion on Fenrir (that forced penalties are bad) isn't exactly 'winning' you the argument anyways.

Ike T versus Titania T in part 3: 3-P: Titania's movement lead lets her get to the boss faster 3-1: Titania's movement lead lets her head east then north to kill the random halberdier; as Xander has shown, Titania T makes a three turn possible 3-2: Titania can drop Shinon in the boss' range turn two EP 3-3: Titania's movement lead lets her reach the Master Crown tent and those supplies while Ike is stuck back with Shinon and Mia. He cannot do what she does; she can do what he does 3-4: Ike is riding in Haar's saddlebags for the majority of the map. He does nothing but seize. Titania has self-improvement. Draw 3-5: Titania contributes to killing the boss and getting the energy drop in two turns, although if you one turn this map it is also a draw 3-7: Titania can't move past the first island. Ike wins at self improvement, just as Titania did in 3-4 3-8: Titania takes Hand axe forges, promo bonuses and canto and is way more useful than Ike. Ike can head east or something I guess, although that is better as strike for wildheart Ulki. You can 4 turn the map and not use Ike T's combat once (just did it) 3-10: Movement advantage makes her invaluable for getting to and clearing the boss area. Ike's combat lets him be part of the crowd of foot units that goes south, whoop dee do. Titania is, once again, whooping Ike's ass 3-11: Similar to 3-4. Ike spends the whole time with Haar, doesn't do a drop of combat, Titania has self improvement 3-E: Ike has better two range Atk here, although he can only use it if dropped by Haar, Janaff, Ulki, etc. Titania doesn't need a ferry to kill stuff. Plus, Ragnell has 4 Mt over a Hand Axe forge, but Titania averages an extra 3.8 Str at 20/4, so he has about a .2 Atk advantage and the advantage of doubling Swordmasters. Then when Haar drops him, even if Ike has provoke, the Wyrmslayer Swordmaster will target Haar. With someone like Provoke Boyd T the Swordmaster ignores Haar I honestly have no clue how Ike T could be ahead of Titania T. His actual combat contributions are not that great. Edit: Yeah, I started typing this before Mercenary Raven responded. Oh well. Titania T still crushes Ike. They shouldn't even really be in the same tier.