volkethereaper

I quit. Esau, good luck. Eclipse, the same. Crystal, you're abillity to drive me to think less of myself never ceases to amaze me.

You're idea box. It is not wrong to disagree, but as I have said before, it is wrong to insult. I assume in High-School you learned how to argue in an essay? Defending and attacking a certain idea, cause, person, etc. is fine, but showing them respect is valuable to your ethos. Calling someone's ideas stupid is not the right way to go. You and Esau seem to have the arguements against her down, but the disrespectful terminology (i.e. stupid) is wrong. This is often a symptom of someone's inabillity to step in another person's shoes (however briefly). If that is not the case with you then I am sorry. As to the debate, although Serious Discussion has been a good place to hold debates, that is not necessarily what it is meant for. Many people come here to learn about others without knowing that fierce debate is imminent if they state an opinion that is disagreed with. I first came here for that reason, myself, and it sounds like eclipse did, too. To be honest, I think a "Serious Debate" forum would be a good addition to this site. Discussions could start here and when they grow heated, move to the debate area, allowing casual players to just hang out and also satisfy the firey combatants such as yourself. EDIT: At your EDIT-You are right about the "crappy defense" thing being worse than no defense, but who judges what is reasonable? Let me make this clear first: I do not agree with her. Nevertheless, just because something seems a certain way in your eyes does not make it true, nor does it make it false. So, really, I'm arguing that there is no point to arguing. How utterly silly of me.

You are right about my insulting you. It was out of line, and I apoligize. I find it increasingly difficult to stay dispassionate. There's just something about people who argue and attack others beliefs without trying to step out of their little box, or at least tries to show some respect to the persons ideas, that irks me. It has always bothered me, and probably always will. EDIT: No, but what was said in them does. A crappy defense perhaps, but defense. EDIT: Should have said "There's something about people that seem to me who argue and attack..."

And you're and Esau's arguements are based on opinion also. The whole discussion is subjective, that's the point of it. And when it comes to categorizing people you're one to talk. Perhaps I will ignore you. You're lack of willingness to see how similar you are to everyone else is beyond irratating. I told Esau to shut up and quit taking himself so seriously, and I was wrong to do so. Telling you to do the same thing, though, seems perfectly reasonable. EDIT: At Esau-My beef is not with you in the least. I think you've done an excellent job. My problem is with those other people who are kicking Eclipse while she's down. They seem to feel that she hasn't argued. I disagree. In the debate I'm having with Crystal, the point I'm trying to convey isn't that she argued well, but that it is incorrect to say she hasn't argued.

I concur also.

SHE'S BEEN ARGUING THE WHOLE TIME!!! Since page four she's been defending her opinion, under the constant scrutiny of you and Esau. Please, before further attacking what I say, go back and read what she's posted, and what you've posted in response. I have a feeling it will be enlightening. Or perhaps it won't, perhaps your the sort of person who dismisses an arguement just because you disagree with it. If that is the case than it is you who should not be posting here.

Well, that's probably because your teachers are as uneducated as you in such fields. That is to be expected at the high-school level, but if you're in college I have but three words for you. Run. Run now.

Infinity, as has been stated before, is not a number. It is a concept, an idea, and an impossible one to really wrap our heads around. As to probability, much the same can be said. The "flaws" of modern mathematics are simply the human inabillity to truly comprehend the abstractions of math. We will always have a difficult time doing this, simply because we can percieve that things like infinity exist theoretically, but we can't really percieve their true meaning.

Indeed, and Eclipse is discussing her views with Esau in her own way also. We can't expect anything different, nor should we.

Eclipse has argued her case, and it is wrong to say she hasn't done so just because you don't find her arguements swaying. She hasn't found your arguements swaying, either. Does that invalidate them? No. You have set her an impossible task: swaying five+ people (Esau, Crystal, Dark Elves, Phoenix, and myself) who have come in with our own biases against her opinion. She's tried very hard to persuade us. Has it worked? No. I'm not persuaded, and none of the rest of you are, either. Yet, she tried. I would say she gave it a noble effort, and I can admire that. So you can say she hasn't defended her point, but if your criteria is based on how successful her arguements have been, then take a look at your own and see where that's gotten you. Of course I expect your pide to get in the way of this, just as mine would. Yet, it must be said. I think she's giving up anyway, so you've won. What is it you've won, though? Have you swayed anybody? It seems to me you've gotten a lot of people who are of a similar mind to you to crawl out of the woodwork. Is that victory? Was that your goal? I find it hard to believe that you would be satisfied with simply stroking your own egos. But, in the end, that's all this is. And to you Crystal: If ever there was a person who could defend themselves eloquently over the internet, it's Esau. Go ahead and keep defending him, though. I was just curious as to why you did. Thanks for letting me know.

Never said it was Esau's fault. Why are you so interested in defending him? Otherwise, you are absolutely right.

To be fair, this topic was started as a place to state our views moreso than debate them. Eclipse has every right not to be convinced by Esau's arguement. Now, choosing to rise to Esau's challenge may have voided that.

You may have clinched it with that post. Anyway, glad no hard feelings. Sorry about the whole "For the love of logic..." crap. Just a bit torqued off lately, and I wrongfully took it out on you.

I have only respect for your beliefs, my friend, just as I do everyone else's (or at least I try, anyway). Combine this with the fact that I can't really know if I'm in the right, and I become the kind of person who tries not to offend people. My advice to you is an attempt at being friendly, and I certainly hope you take it as such. You never cease to make me chuckle. As stated above my advice is only an attempt at being friendly, nothing more. I've seen healthy relationships disintegrate because people use that method of arguing. Granted, on the internet the stakes tend to be much lower, but I didn't think it would hurt to try and communicate to him some of the "knowledge" I've accumulated. I'm rather fond of his humor, and it would be sad to see something negative happen to him, or to someone else on his account. At Phoenix: Ultimately, we're all out here for our own gratification. Debating on the internet is a prime example. Certainly I think Esau means well, but he also enjoys fulfilling his objectives in a very infuriating manner. And against someone like Eclipse, his efforts will, most likely, be ultimately fruitless.

I certainly do.

Although this is sometimes true, what was once a friendly, if spirited, debate can easily become a fight where nothing gets discussed and people are hurt emotionally. Far better to just say why you disagree in a firm, but respectful manner. If the point is to get someone to think intelligently, then mocking them and their ideas is rarely the right way to go. Huh? I don't believe in banning abortion. Or is this about what Eclipse said?

And before Eclipse is criticized for stating her views: To be fair, this is a public forum where little harm can be done by expressing one's views. EDIT: meant "one's" not "bone's"

On the contrary, I don't believe logic is useless. It is practical, and no matter how flawed something may be, practicality will over rule that. I simply think that it's wrong to mock another person because you percieve them as illogical. Logic is fine to use, good to use, actually, but mocking someone based on your logic compared to their's is not justifiable. My opinions on abortion, by the way, are that it is morally repugnant in many cases. Nevertheless, taking that course of action is that person's perrogative and I have no right to impede them, and I similarly have no right to judge them based on that action. In other words: It's wrong, but I won't stop you or treat you badly because you do it. EDIT: Added an Avatar, just for you, Esau. ;)

And what makes your ideas better than mine? Explain that to me please, oh intelligent one. I, a lowly moron, seek your great wisdom. Tell me how your thoughts and ideals, inherintly subjective as they are, are so much greater than mine? Or, perhaps you're like my father, unable to see the worth of others? By the way, when it came to explaining things logically I was trying to show you respect by playing on your field by your terms. It seems, though, that I misjudged you.