aku chi

My, my... I can never predict which of my comments will encourage a series of tirades. I hope that we can prevent this side discussion from carrying this topic too far from its original intent. They can team up for a 1 turn kill. Yeah, that would fall under "training Calill", at which point you don't need Soren to wield the siege tomes. The language I used was "out of the way". If you can get to the C16 Bolting in X turns, you could have gotten Ike to the seize square in X - 1 turns. It is out of the way. Getting the C22 Bolting to Soren on turn 1 (and still in range of a Reyson vigor) would be quite a feat. I expect it's possible, but I'm not sure. It's certainly more complicated than using Meteor. Uh... what? Soren has 6 mov. He will fall behind. This is a fact. He can still be useful using staves or long rang magic. Those 15-20 uses can be very helpful. Soren can snipe Ballistae operators, kill/weaken chokepoint enemies, and injure bosses. Despite his 6 mov, he can reach enemies that no non-Sage can thanks to 3-10 range weapons. Your playstyle is not the only relevant one. It is entirely possible to play efficiently without using Rhys or Mist. And it is entirely possible for Soren to reach C staves as early as C17-3 with an early Master Seal. I haven't been claiming it's worth it to use an Arms Scroll on Soren, no more than I've claimed it's worth it to give an Arms Scroll to Oscar or Boyd. The purpose of this topic, insofar as I understand it, is to first recognize which characters can benefit from an Arms Scroll. This will give us a better understanding of how valuable they are and then we can ponder the best uses for them.

1) Only if those two Cs are Fire and Thunder or if you go out of your way to grab the C16 Bolting. Siege tomes are the only way to kill Schaeffer on turn 1, and they're the easiest way regardless. Due to Soren's poor movement, siege tomes are often going to be the only way Soren can reach an enemy. The more he can use, the better. 2) Setting up attack opportunities for Soren might not be efficient and it stifles his staff rank growth. I just barely pulled off a C Fire and C Thunder in time in a draft run with Soren where I gave him a lot of resources so he could survive exposure on enemy phase (and promoted him before C11). It's possible, but not very practical in a more traditional playthrough. Let me close with a relevant quote (emphasis mine):

1) Siege tomes are the best things about the Sages (certainly the most unique). If you don't get the C16 Bolting, Meteor is the only available siege tome for the essential C22 boss kill, so having C Fire is pretty important. Soren, in particular, can pull off some pretty cool OHKOs with Bolting, like on the C23 Ballistae operators, so C Thunder is pretty helpful as well. Blizzard is the worst of the three (obtained last and least powerful), but Soren is a lock for C Wind, so he gets to wield that for nothing. And with only 5 uses each, the more siege tomes Soren can wield, the better. 2) With an early promotion, it's possible for Soren to get C Fire by Chapter 20 and C Thunder by Chapter 23, but it isn't trivial by any means, you really have to work for it. Also, Soren is weighed down by Elfire and especially Elthunder, so we'd prefer him to wield a 1 Wexp forge instead. Also, activating Adept doesn't provide Wexp for some lame reason, so that slows down our efforts. 3) Sure, if Calill is being trained we can let her use the siege tomes. She does need to be trained to pull off a 2HKO on Schaeffer and the like, so a base Calill doesn't satisfy all of our siege needs. As I said, Soren might benefit from an Arms Scroll if he is the only Sage you're training.

Good luck. As Red Fox of Fire points out, unpromoted units cannot make any progress towards A ranks. You may want to revise your commentary; this occasionally plays an important role. An arms scroll right after promotion lets Ike wield the Silver Blade a little earlier, but this probably isn't worth it (a Steel forge is generally strong enough). A Lances isn't meaningless for Titania, because a Silver Lance is available many chapters earlier than a Silver Axe (C16), but Titania won't have any issues reaching A Lances if you are aware of this fact. Oscar is in a tricky situation. After promotion, the question is whether to focus on getting A Lances or try to get A Axes. The latter is better in the long run, but probably won't be available in time for Silver forges without an Arms Scroll. If Boyd is our only Bow user, we might want to get him up to B Bows for the Brave Bow. This will take an Arms Scroll or two. Rhys has 0 weapon rank concerns. Agreed. The early Silver Lance isn't something worth using an Arms Scroll on; it just saves us a Steel forge (Titania is the logical candidate for it anyway). Gatrie will be fine with his Lance rank and there's no really reason to develop his Sword rank. Uh... Unless you're rolling with 2 or more Sages, Soren wants to be able to wield all of the siege tomes, which is almost impossible without Arms Scrolls. C Wind is a given, and C Thunder can be developed in time for the Chapter 22 Bolting if you work towards it, but Soren probably wants to eat an Arms Scroll post-promotion to wield Meteor (unless you're also using Calill or something). Well, if Mia's your only Swordmaster, she wouldn't mind an Arms Scroll post-promotion for earlier access to the Silver Blade and/or Vague Katti. I look forward to it. I've got lots of thoughts on weapon ranks and Arms Scrolls.

While those are nice items, they're too far out of the way to be reasonably obtained in an efficient clear.

If it's not worth talking about Volke's combat, then it isn't worth talking about Janaff's combat, but I seem to recall a some praise, at least at the Lower-Mid level, over Janaffs always doubling and 3-4HKOing non-Generals at 1-range. Well, with a Stiletto, Volke can do that, plus 2-3HKO Generals, plus crit far more often. Let's take a look at some stats, shall we: Level 20/7 Volke 37.4 HP, 22.8 Str, 24.8 Skl, 25.4 Spd, 12.6 Lck, 12.2 Def, 6.6 Res Stiletto - 8 Mt (16 Mt vs. Knights/Generals), 95 Hit, 10 Crt Level 15 Janaff 48.1 HP, 16.85 + 6 Str, 19.9 + 5 Skl, 21.55 + 3 Spd, 18.8 Lck, 13.1 + 4 Def, 11.75 + 2 Res Beak - 7 Mt, 90 Hit, 0 Crt I don't mean to talk up Volke's combat: it's really poor without Stilettos and not even very good with them. But if Janaff's combat deserves discussion, so does Volke's. And Sothe's combat is irredeemably bad. Concerning Volke/Sothe, I think they should be > Devdan for the Boots alone, but throw in Chapter 13 and all of the valuable treasure they can help get and it seems obvious to me. Edit: You couldn't have used her much if she only gained one level in 6 chapters. I thought 4 levels in 7 chapters was fairly reasonable, if a tad optimistic considering that C15 is probably pacifist-cleared and C10 might be stealth-cleared. Or Nephenee > Muarim. I don't know which makes more sense off-hand, they seem like difficult comparisons. Lethe vs. Nephenee is probably the easiest comparison, because they have almost identical availability and Lethe has the least shove utility of the beast laguz. But Nephenee requires significantly more resources, grows better, and has 1-2 range but 7 mov. Mordecai is the biggest oddball of the bunch, because his placement is almost entirely due to smite utility, as opposed to combat.

I just tested it in game. Lethe gains 15 Con but 10 Wt from transformation. You are correct, Lethe cannot shove promoted male Paladins or Jill like Muarim (transformed) can. Edit: Though if shoving promoted male Paladins is so important, Lethe can do it with a single Statue Frag (very low demand). 13: When she untransforms, she can still help out by opening a chest or two with Chest Keys. 16: She has 5 turns of full strength combat and can then help grab the Full Guard or Dracoshield (Chest Key). 17-3: It's a self-improvement chapter, but yes: Lethe will miss out on half of the ten turns unless you let her use the Demi Band. 18: It's true, Lethe will need the Demi Band to fight the Ravens. 21: Neither of the beast laguz are likely to be ferried over the water, so it isn't too important that Lethe only has 5 turns at full strength. If she's being used to get a treasure or something, she can take the Demi Band if needed. 23: Can be beaten in 4 turns. Even if you take your time, Lethe is at full strength for the great majority of this chapter. And she can shove Ike or something to make herself useful. 25: Can be beaten in 4 turns. I suppose Lethe might run out of gauge if you aren't particularly swift here. But she probably wants to get out of the way during the last couple turns anyway, because she has no 1-2 range. 26 & 27: It's possible that she'll run out of gauge on the last turn (4 or 5), but that generally isn't relevant when all you need to do is kill the boss and seize/arrive. She can even shove or take/drop Ike, if needed.

Unless the information on SF is incorrect, Lethe has 21 + 15 transformed Wt, enough to shove/smite all of the Paladins and Jill.

Hmm... Muarim >> Lethe perplexes me. - Lethe has 6 chapters extra availability, all of which she is useful in. - Lethe has a turn 1 transformation, so she has 4-5 turns of full strength combat guaranteed. There are only a few chapters that last long enough for Lethe untransforming or requiring the Demi Band to be relevant. Muarim needs the Demi Band to be a useful combat unit. His use deprives some other candidate (notably Mordecai or Ranulf) of the Demi Band. - Lethe and Muarim have comparable shove/rescue utility. Transformed Lethe can shove every beorc unit except Haar. Muarim can shove Haar, but needs to be transformed to do so (and he can only shove ~1/2 of the mounted units untransformed). Both can rescue/carry all of the non-mounted beorc. - Taking into consideration Muarim's Demi Band penalties, Lethe and Muarim have very similar stats in their shared chapters. Consider a moment near Muarim's joining (perhaps 17-1): Level 7 Lethe 39.2 HP, 14 + 6 Str, 12.6 + 4 Skl, 14.8 + 3 Spd, 17 Lck, 10.6 + 5 Def, 8 + 3 Res Level 9 Muarim 45 HP, 16 + 4 Str, 13 + 2 Skl, 15 + 2 Spd, 11 Lck, 12 + 2 Def, 5 + 2 Res Muarim has a +1 Mt lead over Lethe. Lethe has slightly higher Speed (18 AS is needed to double all of the Myrmidon reinforcements in 17-1). Both are sufficiently durable: Muarim has an HP lead, but Lethe has an avoid, Defense, and Resistance lead. Let us take a look at the pair near endgame to see how their growths affect things: Level 18 Lethe 53.5 HP, 19.5 + 6 Str, 19.75 + 4 Skl, 22.5 + 3 Spd, 22.5 Lck, 15 + 5 Def, 10.75 + 3 Res Level 19 Muarim 59.5 HP, 23 + 4 Str, 20 + 2 Skl, 20.5 + 2 Spd, 14.5 Lck, 18 + 2 Def, 9.5 + 2 Res Defensively, the situation is mostly unchanged. Both have supports that help their durability, and both are sufficiently durable. Muarim has extended his attack lead a smidgen, but a single Energy Drop for Lethe can almost completely negate Muarim's attack advantage throughout the game (1 Energy Drop is probably less costly than Muarim's Demi Band monopoly). Lethe, meanwhile, has extended her Speed lead. She can consistently double even the fastest enemies throughout the game, whereas Muarim occasionally fails to do so. She's also a slightly better Adept candidate (both want it to turn their many 3HKOs into ORKOs, but Lethe has a little more Skill and doubles everything). So, I'm confused. What advantages does Muarim have to compensate for Lethe's substantial availability lead?

Sure. But Haar can double them all with 19 AS (apparently he can double all of the Snipers here with 19 AS, too). 19 AS is certainly possible for Haar (he averages above 19 Speed at level 17), though it's true that he might miss that. 18 Speed (pretty much guaranteed for Haar by C27) just misses out on two Halberdiers and one Sniper. It's unrealistic but it means much. It is entirely sufficient to demonstrate that Haar is more valuable than Geoffrey when each is given their optimal resource bundles. I've made several different attempts to explain this logic; I'm at a loss for how to explain it in another way.

Except that there are no Paladins here, so the enemy types that Geoffrey doubles that Haar doesn't just includes a few Cats, Tigers, Thieves, and Snipers (about 10 enemies total). Meanwhile, there are a lot of Generals in chokepoints that Geoffrey cannot 2HKO that Haar can. Plus, Haar can ORKO more enemies at 2-range. Agreed. - I did spend some time talking about what Haar can do with the Brave weapons and what he can do with an Arms Scroll, which I suppose are a part of Haar's optimal resource bundle. - But such discussion isn't necessary for this comparison (even if it is useful otherwise) in the event that Haar is more valuable than Geoffrey when they both receive Geoffrey's optimal resource bundle (as per the transitive property detailed several times in my previous posts).

If that's her intent, I'd like to see an actual argument. I've primarily seen critiques of my argument. While Geoffrey's superior Speed is an advantage (especially in C26), Haar's superior Strength is also a notable advantage, especially in the event that he has A Axes (through an Arms Scroll or training). - You seem to have a firm understanding of my approach; I am glad. - I don't believe the specifics of my argument are flawed, but I welcome counter-arguments. I agree with Radiant Dragon. Even if Geoffrey is slightly more valuable in Chapters 26, 27, and Endgame (which I'm currently only satisfied is the case in Chapter 26), Haar is substantially more valuable in Chapters 24, 25, and 28. I continued with the discussion as long as I did, because I believe that my argument approach is relevant to future unit comparisons, so I wanted to make sure it was sound and understandable.

Agreed. Volug can make great use of the Energy Drop (+6 damage per round in part 1, +8 damage per round in parts 3 and 4). Nolan and Volug both benefit from the Dracoshield, and for longer than Jill (especially in Nolan's case). The Seraph Robe isn't costless either: Aran (if used) and Nolan would certainly appreciate it.

Between Ulki and Giffca, I guess.

Is a 20/11 Jill realistic at C23? And is 5-8 Avo (don't forget about loluck) really better than 4-5 HP when neither is an avoid-tank? I think this a really important point, so I'm going to give an explanation another attempt. I'm simply applying the transitive property to comparisons: If: A > B and A' >= A then: A' > B A > B is comparing Haar and Geoffrey both with Geoffrey's optimal resource bundle and concluding that Haar is better under these circumstances. A' >= A is acknowledging that it might not be optimal to give Haar Geoffrey's optimal resource bundle, which implies that it would be more valuable to give it to someone else (A'). The conclusion is that Haar without Geoffrey's optimal resource bundle has a net value greater than Geoffrey with his optimal resource bundle. Edit: I appeal to other viewers to let me know if this makes sense, if I'm failing to communicate my point, or if there is some obvious error I'm overlooking.

I felt that I was being very realistic, but feel free to make your own comparison if you desire. Certainly comparing base Haar to 20/17 Geoffrey and ignoring that Haar still has an Atk lead due to Axes doesn't qualify as realistic in any way. It's only necessary if Haar with GBexp is not better than Geoffrey with GBexp. That's one way to make the comparison. A more precise way to demonstrate that Oscar is more valuable than Boyd is to compare the two assuming both are given Boyd's optimal resources (Speedwing and BBexp). If Oscar is still better than Boyd under this comparison, he is more valuable and we need not involve ourselves in a more complicated comparison that involves opportunity costs to other teammates. It's a way to simplify the comparison and yet keep the comparison perfectly rigorous. This doesn't always work. Consider Oscar vs Jill. If both are given Jill's optimal Bexp (~1000 before C17), Jill is better. If both are given Oscar's optimal Bexp (~500 before C17?), Oscar might very well be better, because Jill will be systematically under-leveled. In this case, we need to make the more complicated comparison that evaluates the opportunity cost of the ~500 Bexp difference between the two optimal Bexp amounts. This is not easy to do, and should, I suggest, be avoided whenever possible. I am perfectly aware of this. Giving Haar ~500 Bexp might not be optimal. Assuming he gets it nonetheless in my comparison is a tool to simplify the comparison while maintaining the rigor of the more realistic resources comparison (which is more complicated). I've stated this several times in several ways. I don't mind repeating myself because I believe this is an important point. If you believe that my mathematic argument is in some way amiss, please let me know and I will address such criticisms. - With respect to Marcia and Tanith: I forgot. They might be able to maintain +10 evasion from their support in Chapter 25. I still don't think this results in reliable evasion for either unit, but I am open to being corrected. - Are we assuming Jill is 20/13 in Chapter 23 then? That doesn't seem very realistic.

That wasn't my argument. I'll explain with an analogy (the only other way I can think of to explain this point). Let's say we want to compare Oscar with Titania. These two units will be optimally given a different amount of Bexp. There is some amount of Bexp close to zero, TBexp, that Titania will optimally be given. There is some different amount of Bexp: OBexp, perhaps in the 300-700 range, that Oscar will optimally be given. There are two simple resource distributions that can be used for a Titania v Oscar comparison: - The first is to compare Titania and Oscar assuming that they both get TBexp. This is not realistic, nor is it fair for Oscar. He helps his team more with OBexp. Unsurprisingly, Titania is better in this comparison. - The second is to compare Titania and Oscar assuming that they both get OBexp. This is not realistic for Titania. It is also not fair to her, because our assumption was that the positive difference in Bexp between OBexp and TBexp would be more valuable to our team if given to some other unit(s). So by giving OBexp to her, we are weakening our team (compared to giving Titania TBexp). So, if Titania is better than Oscar in this comparison, which is stacked in his favor, than Titania is clearly more valuable (on net) than Oscar when both are given their optimal Bexp amounts. Replace Haar with Titania and Geoffrey with Oscar and you've decoded my argument. By assuming both Haar and Geoffrey get Geoffrey's optimal amount of Bexp, I am stacking the deck in Geoffrey's favor. If Haar is still better with this comparison, he is more valuable. A Haar with no Bexp may not be better than a Geoffrey with GBexp (I haven't made this comparison, because it is unnecessary), but he is clearly more valuable (due to the Bexp he saves) assuming Haar with GBexp > Geoffrey with GBexp, which is the argument I've been making most recently. This is kind of an important point: it extends beyond this specific debate. Am I explaining my point understandably? This is vague: let's get specific. Geoffrey cannot have any supports in C25. Geoffrey can have +1 Atk in Chapter 26, if both he and Calill were deployed in Chapter 25. But, Chapter 26 is a rush to the boss, Calill can't keep up unless ferried and there is no reason to do so. Geoffrey can have +3 Atk in Chapter 27 (+2 from Calill, +1 from Elincia), which sounds impressive, but Calill is again likely to fall behind. So unless we also let Geoffrey lag behind or ferry Calill for no other reason, Geoffrey will have +1 Atk at best. Elincia isn't deployable in Chapter 28, so Geoffrey can have +3 Atk for 1 turn (at best) before he outruns Calill. Geoffrey can get +4 Atk in Endgame, possibly +2 of which can keep up with him, which might be worth something. "With an aluminum baseball bat, I could hit homeruns." makes no assumption about whether or not I have an aluminum bat, only what I could do with it if I had one. Which is it? Are all four fliers, of whom Haar is the most durable, unable to get to the top of the mountain without dying, or are all able to get up and share kills? Haar can easily tank a Ballista shot (he only needs to tank one). We can even heal him with Physic if we need to. A well trained Jill can make a similar claim, but the Falcon Knights take mighty damage from the Ballista and can get torn up if rushed to the top of the mountain. Ulki has 8 mov, no canto, inferior durability, inferior offense, requires a Demi Band, and can't stay transformed forever; it is the very worst kind of flier utility. Haar is tied for the best movement (9 mov flying canto) with only four other units. He is the most durable among them (only Jill comes close). While his offense is inferior (though Marcia really struggles to 2HKO near endgame), that is not too important in a Rescue/Drop scenario. I can most certainly ignore Geoffrey's combat in Chapter 28, because if we Rescue/drop Ike over the trees, Geoffrey's combat isn't helping us complete the chapter or even a secondary objective. See here.

There are 11 such enemies in Chapter 26, and 10 such enemies in Chapter 27 (in chokepoints, no less). See this post. If other units can use the Bexp better than Haar, this strengthens the argument in favor of Haar. It's explained with both prose and math. - I didn't make assumptions, I pointed out facts. With certain resources, Haar can 2HKO enemies at 1-range that Geoffrey cannot. That is a fact. Geoffrey cannot say the same, because Silver Lance Geoffrey and Steel Axe Haar have about the same attack. - It's incorrect to assume that Haar will have 23 Strength at level 15. He has almost as much chance at having 24 Strength. For this reason, I chose levels where Geoffrey and Haar had round numbers for their average Strength: to be more precise. Haar might not get much more than one level in Chapters 23 and 24 (that depends on what you do with Haar in Chapter 24), but Haar is in a great position (with his movement and durability) to expose himself to a bunch of enemies in Chapter 25 and gain a lot of Cexp (and help us rout the chapter). - In general, this first point has some merit, but the specific example is non-sensical because Geoffrey can't cripple/3HKO Dragons, even with the Laguz Lance. - Geoffrey misses a lot of Flame Lance ORKOs (Tanith is a better candidate). - Haar having poor combat against the laguz in Chapter 28 doesn't prevent him from making a crucial Ike rescue-drop to help complete the chapter (seize), while Geoffrey goes around inconsequentially killing laguz at the bottom of the map. Granted, but Haar is more useful in this particular chapter due to flight. Chapters 26, 27, and Endgame are their shared chapters where Haar doesn't have an important movement advantage. And less than 10/50 in C27. Only a well trained Jill has comparable durability, so Haar can make tough rescue-drops in Chapters 25 and 28 that might be out of reach of the Falcon Knights. And if we're assuming optimal deployment (all three mounted fliers), Geoffrey is in much worse shape: why bother with him when we have Oscar, Kieran, and Jill? At least Haar can bring some unique utility as the flier with the best durability. Whatever Haar does in Chapter 24 is better than PC Geoffrey, no? But it's trivial to send Haar either north or west (to visit the houses) while exposing him to only one Ballista shot. And with Haar's great durability, he can take a lot of enemy punishment at half HP. And let's not ignore the existence of healing, if necessary. This is a strange attack on Haar, though, unless you're willing to also argue than all fliers without the Full Guard are crippled/useless in Chapter 24. Regarding the Arms Scroll, I would welcome a discussion of their optimal use. I believe using both on Mist is a waste. Using one on Soren for Meteor might not be a bad idea (he can easily have more Magic than Calill). Nephenee might also benefit from an Arms Scroll to take her out of E Lances ASAP (it takes a long while naturally). Both Astrid and Geoffrey might have trouble reaching B Bows, so giving them one for the Brave Bow is a decent use. But Haar can be one of the better candidates, letting him 2HKO Wyvern Lords, Generals, and Tigers (though he often fails to double Tigers) with a silver forge.

It certainly is unfortunate, but an Arms Scroll is not the highest demand resource. And even without an Arms Scroll, Haar can probably reach A Axes by Chapter 27. Haar can also 2HKO Generals with the Hammer (albeit with imperfect accuracy). Additionally, Haar can 4HKOs all Generals and Wyvern Lords with a Brave Weapon, so that's an inefficient option (Geoffrey cannot say the same, BTW). The fact remains, Geoffrey cannot ORKO most Generals and needs to use bows to ORKO Wyvern Lords. Haar can ORKO them all with a few resources.

My second comparison involved giving both the same amount of Bexp. I never made a judgement about its cost. How disingenuous. Haar has 45 Atk with a Silver Axe forge (why would we give him a more costly lance forge?) at level 16 (yay for not rounding .4 down), which 2HKOs every non-boss General and Wyvern Lord before Endgame. And 43 Atk (which Haar has at level 13) misses 2HKOing ~2 Generals in all of Chapters 26&27. Haar has free reinforcement Cexp in Chapter 23, all of Chapter 24, and actual movement to reach enemies in Chapter 25. Haar can easily be level 14 at Chapter 26 without any Bexp. Geoffrey will be lucky to be level 12 (if we deploy him at all in Chapter 25). If we give both ~500 Bexp, Haar will reach level 16 and Geoffrey will be between levels 15 and 16. I mostly selected those levels because they feature round numbers for a Strength comparison, but they're actually realistic upon consideration. That seemed like the optimal amount of Bexp for Geoffrey, because it lets him double all of the Paladins (assuming Knight Ward use). Does it? It only really matters if Geoffrey can ORKO enemies at range that Haar cannot. Both can ORKO Sages at range. But Geoffrey struggles to 2HKO even Snipers with a Javelin forge. Warriors, Halberdiers, and Paladins are all out of reach. And while Haar can't double the Paladins and Snipers, he can ORKO some of the Warriors and Halberdiers at range. Haar wins 1-2 range offense. Geoffrey can win 2-range offense due to bows if we give him an Arms Scroll for the Brave Bow (and regardless vs. fliers), but bows are only practical if we have someone to trade out weapons for him. (Oh, and I'd like you to find a map where Geoffrey is doubling 50% more enemies than Haar. You are vastly overestimating the importance of Geoffrey's Speed advantage.) Haar doesn't need Brave weapons to be more useful in chapters 24, 25 and 28 than Geoffrey ever is. Paladins are only relevant in Chapter 26. That is the one chapter where Geoffrey might have an advantage over Haar (though Haar is still helpful). They're pretty even in Chapter 27, where Geoffrey can double some laguz and Snipers but Haar can ORKO all of the Generals. Geoffrey's slightly better offense in Chapter 28 can't overcome his inability to make a crucial rescue-drop over the trees like Haar can. Endgame is largely irrelevant, but their offense is probably comparable here because Geoffrey misses 2HKOs and Haar misses a lot of doubles. And then there's Chapter 24 where Haar is helpful and Chapter 25 where Haar is a huge help. So how is Geoffrey more useful?

Believe it or not, it's entirely possible for two people to agree on a conclusion while disagreeing with the premises or arguments that lead to that conclusion.

Who are you agreeing with, and which comparison? I've now compared Haar vs. Geoffrey with little/no Bexp (in detail) and Haar vs. Geoffrey with a moderate amount of Bexp (briefly). If Haar is better in both comparisons, Haar is better (assuming one of those comparisons provides Geoffrey with his optimal amount of Bexp). The mathematical form of this conclusion can be found in my previous post. But please, I encourage anyone interested to make a sensible comparison favoring Geoffrey. Haar doesn't need a Brave weapon to double half of the enemies in Chapters 24-27. He might need an Arms Scroll and Silver Forge to 2HKO the toughest Generals and Wyvern Lords, but Geoffrey can't 2HKO them at all. 20/15 Geoffrey with a Silver Lance forge has the same Attack as 20/16 Haar with a Steel Axe forge, for instance. And Haar always leads 1-2 range attack: Geoffrey has to be 20/19 with a Javelin forge to match base Haar's Hand Axe forge attack. Haar is still valuable in Chapters 25 and 28 if you give him nothing, because he is a durable flier that can rescue-drop, 2RKO everything, and 1RKO a bunch. But give him a Brave weapon (which he makes great use of), and an Arms Scroll and Silver Forge, and he can ORKO the majority of enemies in Chapters 24-27. At best, when we give Geoffrey a moderate amount of resources, he can ORKO about half of the enemies in Chapters 26 and 27. How is Geoffrey possibly more useful than Haar?

For convenience. If Haar isn't worth the Bexp, than that implies that another unit can make better use of the Bexp, which strengthens, as opposed to weakens, the comparison in favor of Haar. Haar doesn't need the Bexp to be useful. If Geoffrey does, than that is a cost that the Geoffrey-less team doesn't have to bear. In mathematical terms, in case my prose isn't clear: H - Haar G - Geoffrey {T} - The rest of the team sans Haar and Geoffrey GBexp - The optimal amount of Bexp for Geoffrey {R} - The rest of the resources sans GBexp If: (H + GBexp) + ({T} + {R}) > (G + GBexp) + ({T} + {R}) and (H) + ({T} + {R} + GBexp) > (H + GBexp) + ({T} + {R}) Then: (H) + ({T} + {R} + GBexp) > (G + GBexp) + ({T} + {R})

Fair enough, but with a similar amount of Bexp, Haar will still maintain a notable Attack lead (better base, better growth, better cap, and Axes) to 2HKO at range and will double most foes that Geoffrey does except Paladins and Snipers, many of whom Haar can 2HKO with a Brave weapon (also, Paladins don't exist in Chapter 27). And this Bexp-filled Geoffrey really only shines in Chapters 26 and 27. Haar performs better in Chapters 25 and 28 alone, in addition to having decent performances in his other 4 chapters. The Speedwings are also an option (though, I maintain, an unneeded one) to bring Haar up to speed. I'm not sure if anybody has argued that Jill should always (or usually) get a Seraph Robe. I simply pointed out that Jill would need one to match Haar's durability at a reasonable level. If she doesn't get it, Haar's durability is more valuable.