aku chi

Oh, so we tier based on how unique a unit is, now? Nasir to top tier! Anouleth already covered this. It is quite common that Nolan or Sothe need healing. If Laura (or Micaiah) isn't used, they need to waste a turn using a Vulnerary instead of attacking. Or, they can't safely attack unless they are healed afterwards (by Laura). Healing with Laura increases the number of player phase attacks from Nolan and Sothe, which are always more valuable than the player phase attacks of Leonardo or Ilyana. And if Laura can't heal from a safe position, then Leonardo can't attack from a safe position, so the durability argument holds no water in this comparison. The durability argument is even in favor of Laura in Part 3 because she can heal from a distance with Physic, if needed. Leonardo must be close to enemies to attack.

Why is Laura below Leonardo? Was my argument (reposted for convenience) in some way unconvincing?

Jill (N)'s combat does kinda blow without resources. 11 Str isn't impressing anyone at this stage (Nolan had more at base 5 chapters earlier!). I believe 1-6-2 can be cleared in 3 turns without a Jill rescue drop (or Tauroneo). And for a 2-turn Tauroneo drop strategy, Jill needs to be sealed to canto away to safety - which impedes her growth. As for "Jill and Zihark's performance in 1-7 isn't all that different to begin with despite Zihark having much higher stats", obviously the "much higher stats" allow Zihark to ORKO more and survive more, but Zihark also has 1 more move than Jill (unless she's been sealed) and has can shove. Can't Nailah ferry the Black Knight? And we only need one canto rescuer to rescue/take/drop Rafiel forward: Volug or Muarim can perform the take/dropping. I can give Jill some credit for being able to ferry the Black Knight and/or Rafiel, but it hardly seems like unique utility.

What does Jill do in 1-E that Vika couldn't do, only better? And while Jill can contribute more than Zihark in 1-6-2, it's due to rescue-dropping, which she must share credit for. I suppose the 1-7 utility you're refering to is due to rescue-ferrying Micaiah? This is a pretty small contribution and it isn't even unique to Jill (Fiona can rescue-canto Micaiah and hand her off to Volug or something). Jill's contributions elsewhere depend on her getting a substantial cache of resources, which imposes steep opportunity costs. Zihark, meanwhile, can be quite helpful in 1-6-1, 1-8, and 3-12 without many resources. He's also slightly helpful in 1-6-2, 1-7, and 3-6. Don't forget that this tier list doesn't cover Jill's part 4 contributions which are, admittedly, superior to Zihark's.

It's thief utility vs. combat utility, so there's no perfect science here. There are some valuable items for Heather to steal in Part 3, most notably the 3-5 Energy Drop. There are also some nice hidden treasures that Heather is best at finding, most notably the Rescue staff in 3-E. Nephenee, meanwhile, is a borderline combatent who may or may not be fielded in any chapters in Part 3. Oops, I also forgot about Ilyana (T - Mag, Skl, Res). I don't think Ilyana (T) has a good case for being more valuable than Leonardo, but I could be convinced otherwise. Edit: And Tormod (T - Mag, Spd), too! But that's even less consequential than Ilyana's transfers.

Let me take a stab at the Greil Mercenaries. Blimey, this is a lot of units! Top Haar Titania (T - Spd, Skl) Ike (T - HP, Str, Skl, Spd, Def, Res) Titania Ike High Mia (T - Str, Skl, Spd) Reyson Oscar (T - Str, Skl, Spd) Mia Shinon Gatrie (T - Str, Skl, Spd, Def) Boyd (T - HP, Str, Skl, Spd) Gatrie Nephenee (T - Str, Skl, Spd) Upper Mid Oscar Ulki (T - Str) Janaff Ulki Mordecai Ranulf Heather Middle Jill (T - Str, Skl, Spd, Def) Zihark (T - Str, Skl, Spd) Nephenee Leanne Tanith (T - Str, Skl, Spd) Marcia (T - Str, Skl, Spd) Boyd Soren (T - Mag, Skl, Spd, Res) Rhys (T - Mag, Skl, Res) Mist (T - Mag, Spd) Rhys Mist Lower Mid Kyza Sigrun Tanith Jill Marcia Zihark Rolf (T - Str, Spd) Soren Rolf Kieran (T - Str, Skl, Spd) Makalov (T - Str, Spd, Def) Low Brom Danved (N/T - Str) Calill (N/T - Mag) Kieran Bottom Ilyana Lethe Makalov Astrid (T - Str, Skl, Spd) Lyre Astrid I can't comment on all of the differences. But I made more of an effort to ignore part 4 performance than the OP seemed to. This resulted in Ulki and Janaff moving down quite a bit (very good units, but only in 4 relevant chapters), and Gatrie moving up (solid throughout Part 3). I also added all of the Transfer versions of units. I've never tried it, but it looks like Jill (T) and Zihark (T) would be decent enough to consider using in the latter half of part 3. The other transfered fliers are where they are just for their performance in 3-11, which indicates just how crappy low-mid and beyond are. I'm not too satisfied with the lower tiers either, because the units' contributions are so minimal/non-existent.

At first, I wasn't going to consider your post - but then I saw the caps lock and knew you must have a good point.

If you're referring to 3-6, a modestly trained Aran (17/1) is in competition for the second best durability in the chapter (inferior to Volug, in competition with Nolan).

I believe the Black Knight arrives around turn 5 in 3-6. He will need to be ferried to the front to make a big contribution, but he is a god unit once he gets there, with all the utility that implies. The Black Knight's position is heavily dependent on how you evaluate his 1-9 performance. It is the most important performance of any single unit in all of the DB chapters, but we obviously don't want to award near-infinite utility for this one chapter. So I could see the Black Knight below Zihark and Jill. But I think he must stay above Nailah, because he is almost as valuable in 1-E, his 1-9 blows away her 1-8, and he has 3-6 to boot. Micaiah has important chip damage in the early part 1 chapters, especially 1-P. Micaiah can nab several important 1HKOs with Thani throughout Part 1 - most notably against Burton in 1-3. She can also heal in a pinch with Sacrifice. Micaiah is very important in 3-6 with Physic, where she has more range and heals more than Laura. Healing/Purging in 3-12 and 3-13 is less impressive, but still valuable. It's hard to compare the myriad of Micaiah's small contributions throughout her 14 chapters to the god units in their 2-3 chapters, but I lean towards Micaiah delivering more total utility. I'd prefer not to make that assumption. Training a third tier 1 DB may not be most efficient, but it also isn't damaging, especially if that third DBer is Aran or Edward. Training them will lower Nolan and/or Jill's level going into Part 3, but their contributions have the potential to justify that cost. Even if you ignore Aran's potential to be trained (which you shouldn't), he's still superior to Ilyana. While he can't deal as much damage at 2-range, he can deal at least as much damage at 1 range with an Iron Lance forge and can provide walling utility, most notably in 1-4. And he has part 3 to potshot, unlike Ilyana. When compared with Leonardo, untrained Aran lacks Leonardo's early chip and has an inferior part 3, but he is better in their shared part 1 chapters. I disagree. Laura should at least be tiered above Leonardo. Her healing effectively allows Nolan or Sothe an extra player-phase action whenever they're injured enough to need to use a Vulnerary (quite often). I'd take an extra player phase from Nolan or Sothe over a player phase from Leonardo or Ilyana anyday. And the potshotters don't have enough of a durability advantage over Laura for that to be relevant - they must all be protected. Whether or not Laura's healing is more valuable than Edward's early utility or Tormod and Vika's good few chapters is harder to evaluate. Meg can chip against laguz in 1-4 (lower gauge and damage), unlike Fiona. She can also shove a handful of units in her free deployment. She can perform many of the same utility roles as Fiona, like chipping at laguz in 3-6 and ledge blocking in 3-13. Fiona's canto and rescue utility might give her a slight edge over Meg, but not enough to save her from Bottom Tier.

I think this is a good idea. I've got a lot of issues with the various tier lists though. Allow me to start with my proposed tier list for the Dawn Brigade: Top Sothe Volug Nolan Jill (T - Str, Skl, Spd, Def) High Black Knight Micaiah Zihark (N/T - Str, Skl, Spd) Jill Tauroneo Mid Muarim Nailah Laura Rafiel Edward Tormod Aran Low Vika Leonardo Ilyana Bottom Fiona Meg The only part of the list I have no problems with is Top. Moving down, let's consider the god units first. The Black Knight is probably soloing 1-9, is one of three god units in 1-E (but the only one with 1-2 range), and joins part-way through 3-6 as the only god unit (in a very tough chapter). Tauroneo is a the sole god unit in 1-6-1 and 1-6-2 where he is very helpful. He also has some value in 3-12 and 3-13 as a mortal, but still competent, unit. Muarim is the sole god unit in 1-7 (and starts with a full guage, and so probably doesn't need to use Olivi Grass), a help in 1-8 (dominates his part of the map with some Olivi Grass), and one of three potential god units in 1-E (but needs to be transformed unlike Nailah). Nailah is just slightly better than Muarim in 1-8 and 1-E because she doesn't need to use any grass, but this isn't enough, in my opinion, to outweigh Muarim's 1-7. In between the Black Knight and Tauroneo, I saw fit to place Micaiah, Zihark, and Jill. Micaiah has the most availability and is a meaningful contributor throughout via Thani-bombing and healing. Zihark has almost as much availability as Volug and actually has better combat throughout Part 1 (minus the move). Zihark is can also be a big help in 3-12 and a smaller help in 3-6 and 3-13. He doesn't need any resources to contribute, unlike our friend Jill. And while Jill can end up contributing more than Zihark, it is only with a host of valuable resources that she must be penalized for taking. Below Nailah are a couple utility units. Rafiel, I saw as less valuable than god units. He need not even exist in 1-8, because Nailah can solo that section of the map by herself, but he can be very helpful in 1-E - if we dedicate some units to ferrying him. Laura, I deem, is more valuable overall as a staff user in almost all of the DB chapters. Below them I place the other two LEA members and the two middling tier 1 DBers. Edward, I think, is most valuable for his contributions early in part 1 (especially in 1-P). Training Edward won't pay off in Part 1, but can be potentially helpful in part 3. Tormod is quite helpful in 1-7 and 1-8, possibly the best non-god unit. Aran, like Edward, can be trained in Part 1 to help out in Part 3. When compared with Edward, Aran's probably a little more valuable in Part 3 when trained, but he lacks most of Edward's early-game utility. Vika might have some contributions in 1-7 and 1-E and is a big help in 1-8. Two pot-shotters follow Vika. While Ilyana is the superior pot-shotter in their shared chapters, I give Leonardo the nod due to his greater availability. Fiona and Meg are rightfully together in bottom tier. They're likely to just chip and perform utility roles in their free-deployment chapters. Meg has better chip and more free deployment chapters, but Fiona has better utility thanks to superior mov and canto.

- Last I heard, this was not an optimal deployment list. If it were, more than half of the units would be in a tier called "Unused". - Vantage/Wrath Nephenee is arguably the very best drop candidate for C25. The only real competition is Vantage/Wrath Boyd, but he has a harder time surviving. Nephenee has more durability naturally and can equip the Knight Ward when in Wrath range as an added bonus. Ike, with his lack of 2-range, is far inferior. With more AS and 1-2 range. And considerably more 1-range Atk. with a Silver Forge.

All Nephenee (or Marcia) need is Bexp. They need quite a lot to start ORKOing, but we have quite a lot. Their use of the Bexp is not costless, but it also is not crippling. Obviously, Marcia helps us more if she gets Bexp, but Nephenee also develops into a useful combatent. Nephenee can have trouble reaching the action in many chapters, but she is one of the best rescue-drop candidates (competing with Boyd and Ike) and can be especially helpful in C25 with Vantage/Wrath.

Or not. Base Oliver has 31 Magic. Laura needs to be 10/10/10 or equivalent to match that. Not happening. Mist needs to be 20/18 to match that. Not happening. Rhys needs to be 10/8 to match that. This is theoretically possible, but unlikely. Micaiah absolutely cannot exceed 32 Magic before 4-E and needs to be 17/11/1 to reach 31 Magic in the first place. Elincia cannot exceed 30 Magic and doesn't reach 25 on average by level 20. Of the Mages, only Pelleas can wield Fortify (and he'll need two Arms Scrolls). He needs to be 15/7 to have 31 Magic. Highly unlikely. Oliver is a perfectly fine staff-bot. The problem is that we already have a sufficient staff-bot in Micaiah and if we want another, it's for Rescue - which Elincia and Mist are better suited for.

Actually, I was being generous to Muarim. A 20/1 Nephenee with a Steel Lance forge has ~30 Atk and ~20 AS. Demi Band Muarim has 29 Atk and 17 AS at base. Obviously, Nephenee needs more resources to get to that level of combat, but she can get there pretty soon after Muarim joins. Muarim won't enjoy combat leads over Nephenee for any significant length of time. His value must come from 9 mov and shove/smite utility.

Certainly. Titania has similar Skill to Mia and misses a fair number of 2HKOs (especially at range) in C18 and beyond (at least until she can get a Silver Axe forge) - but she can 3HKO most everything.

I would think 9 mov + shove utility are more important than Demi Band Muarim's temporary 1-range combat leads over Nephenee. Edit: But it's not at all obvious which unit is more valuable, so a more detailed comparison might be fruitful.

What's laughable about giving Mordecai some Bexp? Bexp for Mordecai is cheap (starting out like a level 4 tier 2 beorc). Resolve Mordecai is a viable combat unit throughout Part 3. While Mordecai probably doesn't need the Bexp level-ups (he has enough HP, Lck, and Def), bexping him to 99 before 2-E (and maybe 2-2) doesn't seem like an especially bad idea.

Don't forget Oliver, Duke of Tanas.

I'm sorry for any confusion my use of the word "generous" caused. Considering I was arguing against Mia, I wanted to make sure I was being suitably generous in the comparison - to avoid the very criticisms you levelled against me. I'll name two: Marcia and Titania.

I didn't explain my point fully (in this topic - I believe I covered the same point in greater detail during the Haar vs. Geoffrey discussion in the PoR tier list). The fully accurate and realistic way to compare units with different optimal resource bundles is through net value with their optimal resources using opportunity costs. This is difficult to do. Occasionally we can simplify the comparison - as I suggested with Titania vs. Oscar. It is only because Titania is better with and without the Speedwings that this simplification is comprehensive. This doesn't always work, especially when comparing units with very different optimal resource bundles, like Jill and the Black Knight. In such cases, we must perform the "realistic" comparison and approximate the opportunity costs of the units' resource use. Certainly, it does. Just in case you interpretted otherwise, I'd like to clarify that all of my recent posts have been made from the perspective of assuming optimal resource distribution. There are still opportunity costs that need to be taken into account. The upside (from a simplicity perspective) is that the optimal resource bundle for each unit is not stochastic (an awesome word, IMO).

You seem to have a reading comprehension problem. If a paragraph is too difficult for you to work through, maybe a sentence will suffice: Haar and Titania being the best Speedwings candidates (even by far) does not imply that there are no costs associated with giving them the Speedwings. I think this is a potentially dangerous way to view resource costs and will result in overvaluing units who make the best use of valuable resources. When judging Titania's worth, we cannot simply evaluate her performance with the 1-E Speedwings, even if she is the best candidate. To accurately measure Titania's net value, we must take into account the opportunity cost of that Speedwings being used on another unit. Not just any other unit, but the unit who would provide the second highest benefit. This can be difficult to do in practice, but there are some ways to more easily compare units without sacrificing the accuracy of the more realistic comparison. If we were to compare Titania with Oscar, for instance, we could compare the two units both (a) under the assumption that they both get the 1-E Speedwings and (b) under the assumption that neither gets the 1-E Speedwings. If Titania is better in both comparisons (as she clearly is), then we can say with complete accuracy that Titania w Speedwings has more net value than Oscar w/o Speedwings.

I don't think you understand the principle of opportunity cost. Let us suppose that Oscar is the third best candidate for one of the 1-F or 2-3 Speedwings. By using the Speedwings on Oscar, our team benefits from Oscar being able to double a great many more enemies than he could without it. That benefit is forgone when we use the Speedwings on Titania or Haar. That benefit forgone is the opportunity cost of using the Speedwings on Titania or Haar. The benefit of giving the Speedwings to Titania or Haar is larger that the benefit of giving it to Oscar (so our assumptions go), so it is optimal to give the Speedwings to them, but that doesn't make them "free" in any meaningful sense. Edit: While we're discussing it: Oscar, Nolan, Boyd (T), Soren (T), and Kyza can all benefit greatly from those Speedwings. Skrimir and Tanith also benefit greatly from Speedwings, and we'd need to save one of these if we want to give Speedwings to both of them.

Pardon? The economic principle of opportunity cost indicates that the cost of Titania and Haar getting the 1-E and 2-3 Speedwings is precisely equal to the benefits of giving the Speedwings the the next best users. Those Speedwings are far from valueless: many, many units would like the extra Speed for doubling. Concerning Oscar v Nephenee, I can't figure out if people are comparing their transfered or non-transfered variants. I think that in both cases, Oscar is slightly more valuable than Nephenee outside of their forced chapters. Nephenee, however, is more valuable than Oscar in their forced chapters (almost entirely due to 2-1). Because neither Oscar (N) nor Nepehenee (N) are terribly impressive outside of their forced chapters, Nephenee (N) > Oscar (N) might make sense whereas Oscar (T) > Nephenee (T) might not.

Yeah. With Oscar (T)'s merely average Strength and no access to Hammers, his performance against armors is nothing worth mentioning. Mia, with her increased crit, is probably at least as good.

Oscar (T) definitely leads Mia in 3-P and 3-1, but he needs an early crown (he can probably tolerate the 3-6 Master Crown) to unlock his tier 2 Speed cap and double for the rest of part 3. With it, I don't see Mia really beating Oscar (T) until 4-E, so I'm receptive to them being closer (if not Oscar (T) > Mia).