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Which is inefficient... It is enough to hit 75% of the time... If you are depending on that hit to clear the chapter and you will otherwise lose if you miss, that 75% hit is indeed concerning. If, on the other hand, that 75% hit is not critical to the chapter's completion (or you have a contingency plan in the event of a miss), it is not concerning. This is pretty elementary risk management. I believe I've made myself very clear with respect to difference between reliability and risk. You are being obtuse. Are you talking about Chapter 15? My intent is not to argue that the ~75% reliable 2-turn Marcia Laguz Lance strategy should not be considered for an efficient run. My intent is to suggest that that strategy is not necessarily preferable to a more reliable 3-turn clear (of which there are many). It depends upon how we evaluate risk, and also any additional benefits we can gain from an additional turn (an extra treasure or two, perhaps). In my opinion, 4-turn clears that recruit Stefan should also be considered. My intent is to increase the scope of discussion, not diminish it. Marcia should be credited for enabling the most reliable (albeit ~75% reliable) 2-turn clear of C15. But units that can contribute significantly to more reliable 3-turn clears or 4-turn clears that recruit Stefan should also get some credit. You were training a non-optimal number of combat units. It's trivial to have 6-8 combat units at 20/7 by C22, just as it's trivial to have 6-8 combat units at 20/15 by Endgame. As for "proof", "proofs" are used in deductive reasoning. I think the word you're looking for is "demonstrate". I'm not quite in the mood to play 22 chapters of PoR to demonstrate how an optimal number of combat units can be 20/7 by C22. You can probably search for past HM efficiency logs to satisfy your desire for such data. I've demonstrated how Soren can benefit from Bexp. If Soren is leveled to 20/7 and given a Spirit Dust, he can 2HKO Schaeffer with Meteor in C22 and OHKO Ballista operators with Bolting in C23. It is suspicious that your perception of how much Bexp is available differs depending on the argument you're currently making. 1) I believe I've already addressed this specific criticism repeatedly. 2) That last sentence makes no sense. You are committing a couple fallacies, I believe. The first is assuming that all efficient runs feature resource distribution similar to your own. There is no one definitive efficient run (if there was, this tier list would be dull and devoid of controversy). There are a variety of efficient strategies, which require different units to be deployed and resources to be distributed differently. The second is that of begging the question. When arguing that a unit shouldn't receive certain resources you are assuming that they don't receive those resources. Consider yourself reminded. Marcia has 11 extra chapters of availability over Reyson, several in which she can make very significant contributions. I think it's pretty obvious that Reyson is the best unit in the chapters he is in. Again you misunderstand/misrepresent my argument. It is not that Reyson is a considerably better Boots candidate than Marcia. It is that Reyson is an excellent Boots candidate (as is Marcia) and can provide unique contributions. He should be considered as a Boots candidate, along with Marcia (and probably Jill). Again, my goal is to increase the scope of discussion, not reduce it. Titania does not have perfect hit with the Hammer. And we were talking about C10, where there are no Vigilantes. We were talking about a non-stealth clear of C10. If we want to 3-turn it, we need a 9-mov unit to basically solo the chapter and clear the path to an Escape square and another 9-mov unit to rescue Ike and ferry him to the Escape square. I was suggesting transformed (via laguz stone) Mordecai as a potential 9-mov destroyer in this chapter. It isn't the only way to acheive this clear (promoted Oscar works even better), but it is (I argue) the best use of a laguz stone on a unit not named Reyson. It is trivial to stay safe and leave enemies to kill on each of C17-3's ten turns. This is not a matter of reliability, it's a matter of making the best use of ten turns that are going to transpire no matter what we do. Getting the Rescue staff is not a minor thing: it contributes to saving 2-3 turns in future chapters. And only a very durable, very offensively profficient 9-mov unit can get the C20 Rescue staff in 2 turns. I would certainly agree that Marcia's contributions are greater in C20, but Oscar can still make a very significant contribution in the chapter. It matters because you made a statement that I disagreed with. You're still making that same statement. Allow me to retort. First, let me clarify that I'm considering only performance in chapters 18-Endgame. Therer is no debate that Marcia is more valuable than Tanith in chapters 10-17. In a particular efficiency playthrough, there is some resource bundle, MBundle, which it is optimal to give Marcia. This might include ~1000 Bexp, a Dracoshield, a Seraph Robe, maybe an Energy Drop, a near monopoly on the Full Guard, and maybe the Boots. Because MBundle is Marcia's optimal resource, Marcia is most valuable when we give her MBundle. Assume, for this argument, that Tanith receives MBundle. Now we consider a Tanith with ~1000 Bexp (instant 4 levels) and all of the stat boosters and other resources we discussed as being in Marcia's optimal resource bundle. Marcia with MBundle doesn't have any notable leads over Tanith with MBundle except a couple points of Strength lategame after Tanith caps level. Tanith, meanwhile, can wield all of the magic weapons to grab difficult ORKOs against Wyvern Lords, Tigers, and Cats; double the very fastest enemies (like Homasa and Petrine) with ease; has a small durability advantage at first; and has the very useful Reinforce skill. I think it's easy to see that in this theoretical comparison, Tanith with MBundle is better than Marcia with MBundle in chapters 18-Endgame. Because they're taking the same set of resources (MBundle), Tanith is also more valuable (distinguished from better by taking into account opportunity costs). But MBundle is not Tanith's optimal resource bundle. Therefore, there are other units that can derive more value from some of these resources. So by distributing MBundle to units who make better value of the resources, like Marcia, we can actually improve Tanith's value to the team. Tanith is no longer quite as good, but she allows other units to put some of those resources to better use. Via the transitive property of comparisons, Tanith is therefore more valuable than Marcia in their shared chapters. This is tha case even when Marcia is better than Tanith because of the resources she has taken, quod erat demonstrandum. It's quite simple, really. You've written a lot of different things I've disagreed with. I've retorted. There is no higher purpose. Don't feel compelled to respond to every paragraph I type.

Fire Emblem games have subtitles. We should just use them. Once a non-numbered series gets too many entries - including remakes and such, it gets cumbersome to apply a number as shorthand. There was a time when The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time was commonly referred to as Zelda 5. But Link's Awakening DX and the two Oracle games made numbering future Zelda games contentious or at least confusing, so we now use LoZ:OoT, or just OoT as an unambiguous shorthand. I see no reason why Fire Emblem should be different. Certainly, FE7 is a tricky issue, but using the translated Japanese subtitle is a sensible solution.

Remind me what Tormod does in those chapters. Not while ferrying Ike. And Titania can actually struggle with 2HKOs on the Knights (blocking the Escape squares) that base Mordecai ORKOs with ease. You can't seem to make up your mind between there being plenty and Bexp and not enough. Wrong chapter, bub. 25% of the time... ? Again, I'm not sure how you're using the word "easy" such that it has any meaning in this context. In the event that you lost track, we were comparing Marcia vs. Oscar's performances in the chapters. There are only a few units that can get the C20 Rescue staff on turn 2. A well trained Oscar is one of them. So he can be very valuable in this chapter despite not being involved in the chapter clear. I'm thinking that it's plenty easy to have all of your combat units at least at 20/7 by C22, Soren included, if you train an optimal number of combat units (5-9, most likely). Soren might actually prefer the Bolting because it's easier for him to 2HKO Schaeffer, even if it's 5% less accurate. You seem to be very confused. First of all, a 20/7 Spirit Dust Soren 2HKOs Schaeffer with Meteor with ~85% displayed hit. So, in the median case, Soren has a 91.5% chance of connecting with both hits and killing Schaeffer. In the 8% chance that Soren misses one of those hits, he still has a 25+% chance to kill Schaeffer via Adept or a crit. So his fail rate is close to 6% in the median case. Secondly, I emphasized that even if this 1-turn clear were considered unreliable, it is nevertheless not risky. If we miss killing Schaeffer on turn 1 with this strategy, nothing bad happens. No units die and no Bexp is lost. We shrug and kill Schaeffer on turn 2. This is distinctly different from most of the fast clears whose reliability I 'harp on' (harpoon is not the word you're looking for), where failing the early clear usually results in Marcia's death. Which is the accurate way to measure which unit is more valuable. If you merely want to claim that in a playthrough where you give Marcia 1500 Bexp, the Boots, an Energy Drop, a Dracoshield, and a Seraph Robe, she is better than Tanith in their shared chapters, I would agree. But that does not mean that Marcia is more valuable than Tanith in their shared chapters. If this sounds funny to you, I would be willing to elaborate. You are speaking from a lack of experience and a desire to disbelieve. I'll be sure to make a public log the next time I perform a HM efficiency run with Boots Reyson to demonstrate the early clears he makes possible. Strange, I wasn't aware that Soren took more Bexp than other units to level up. You can do whatever the hell you want in C17-3. That's the point. If you want to develop Soren's Thunder rank, you can nearly get it from D to C in this chapter alone. If you work towards it (mostly in C17-3), Soren has no problem reaching C Thunder by C22. I've already enumerated the chapters where Boots Marcia might save one turn over Boots Reyson. Would you be so kind as to provide examples? Consistency is a goal of mine.

I actually said that Soren's contributions before Tormod joins are the prime reason why he is > Tormod, so I obviously don't find them insignificant. Soren helps with routs in C7 and C13. He can help accomplish secondary objectives in C9, C11, and C14. He can be a crucial element in a 100% 3-turn clear of C15. Considering that Soren retains some advantages over Tormod in their shared availability, I have no doubt that Soren > Tormod despite Tormod being better in several of their shared chapters. You know those enemies that show up when you don't go stealth? Yeah, there are a lot of them and they block the way. Transformed Mordecai can help enable a 3-turn clear of C10. Is it the best use of a laguz stone? No. But it might be in the top 4, especially if we aren't giving Reyson the Boots. [devil's advocate]I thought we had plenty of Bexp?[/devil's advocate] I didn't mean to imply that Marcia was worthless in C11, it just isn't a big win for her over Oscar or Titania, if at all. Again, I didn't mean to imply that they were useless, just that they aren't particularly more useful than their grounded counterparts in C13. Harpoon? I'm admitting that Marcia is an integral component of a 2-turn clear of C14. But the caveat is that it has an ~80% reliability (where failure means a dead Marcia) and misses out on Makalov, his Red Gem, a Secret Book, and Vantage. A 3-turn 100% clear which grabs all of those spoils might, therefore, be preferred. Does reseting change biorythm? I don't think any kind of reset manipulation is efficient. And while 87.75% may be the median true hit, 59.95% is the minimum true hit, so the mean true hit is actually lower. And I wouldn't consider 75% especially reliable. If we fail, we certainly sacrifice the pacifist clear and might lose Marcia in the process. I don't think it's unreasonable to consider more reliable 3-turn clears, especially considering we can get a couple more treasures in the extra turn. We can get Stefan (and a chance at the White Gem) in 4 turns, so I don't think that should be discounted either. I know it's possible, but it's not easy. So while a Paladin isn't directly influential to a 2-turn clear of C20, they can be instrumental in obtaining one of the most important valuables by the second turn. Something that not any old unit can pull off. That's an immature sentiment. A more mature sentiment might be that you have no particular reason to disbelieve that it would be possible in Hard Mode, but you aren't completely convinced. The differences between the chapter layouts in NM and HM are often trivial; the biggest exceptions are C28 and Endgame, I believe. There's an extra siege tome user in C18 and an extra Sleep Bishop in C21, but I can't think of any other significant differences. Of course, Silver Forges are available earlier in NM, so any strategy that relies on them when they wouldn't be available in HM is suspect. It's possible for a trained Sage to 2HKO Schaeffer, as you'd know if you actually read my Mage analysis. That can give us a little more leeway. A 20/7 Soren actually averages 85% displayed hit with Meteor against Schaeffer on average. He also has a 24% Adept activation chance and a small crit chance, so the odds of a 1-turn clear are quite high indeed. And if we miss the 1-turn clear, nothing detrimental happens. We finish off Schaeffer on turn 2 and are just as happy. Unlike other unrealiable fast clears, this one has no risk. There's no reason not to go for it, unless you're haven't trained a Sage. I've been arguing that Tanith is better than Marcia in their shared chapters. Obviously, Marcia's large availability lead makes her better overall. Actually, I just did that at your request... In general, you're correct, but C18 is so delightfully linear and easy to wall off that moving a full 9x2 spaces is actually possible. But even if you can't transport Reyson all the way to the front, the +2 mov always lets multiple units move 2 tiles further each turn (when Reyson is transformed). 1) Try training less than 15 units. Promoting all of your combat units (with the possible exception of Tormod) before C17-1 is standard. 2) Promoted Soren loses 3 AS from Elthunder on average and can double almost everything with his 15 AS. 3) There is absolutely no reason to rout C17-3 early. It's a playground with which to train whichever units we want and the perfect place to raise weapon levels. If I had a C18 HM save on hand I would gladly demonstrate my strategy, but I'm not in the mood to spend 15 hours to satisfy your doubts at the moment. As for Boots Reyson only being awesome in 4 chapters, Boots Marcia can only save a turn (over Boots Reyson) in 4-5 chapters maximum. Presumably the 2-turn clear of C17-2 is out of Boots Jill's reach (since it requires every shove in the book and more). I'm not sure about the C18 1-turn clear, but that might also depend on shoves that won't affect Jill. I don't know how I feel about the "tier list player" seeking extra-game information. The puzzle of C17's deployment is not easily discovered in the game itself. Nor are the locations of the hidden treasures in C15. Should we assume that those things are always known?

I'm not sure how the word "easy" would apply to a particular strategy, but a strategy that depends upon: - Promoted Marcia with the Boots - Mordecai, Muarim, and Lethe - 2 of { promoted Oscar, promoted Kieran, Jill, promoted Makalov } - Perfectly planned deployment in C17-1 could be accurately described as strict or inflexible. I'll be responding to the rest this evening.

What? It's quite simple. When both Sages are trained, Tormod is better than Soren in their shared chapters. Considering that Soren has 11 more chapters of availability (a few in which he can make significant contributions) and takes a bit fewer resources to get ORKOing, Soren is the better unit on the whole. If this still bothers you, replace Soren with Titania and Tormod with Kieran to understand the general principle (obviously the details differ). Sadly, Marcia being easier to shove probably is her greatest advantage over Jill in their shared availability (Marcia's superior AS is the only other advantage). I really have no clue where this came from. But on the subject, the only chapter in which I would consider using a Laguz Stone on a unit not named Reyson is C10, because Transformed Mordecai can really tear that chapter up if we decline to go stealth. Or we can give Oscar 1000 Bexp and he can simply dominate the chapter with Titania. I know which I'd prefer... Uh, I said Marcia would need about 1600 Bexp to help 3-turn C11. For C12, she can make due with ~1200 Bexp total, because she doesn't need to promote, as you say. 1200 Bexp is a lot but it is a lot more reasonable than 1600 Bexp in chapter 11, especially considering just how substantial and unique Marcia's contributions are in C12. The most secure 7-turn clears have everyone routed and all of the chests opened before turn 7. You gain nothing by clearing the enemies faster except to make it safer to open the chests. And no fliers are necessary for that task. It's come to my attention that Marcia might be able to 2-turn this chapter if we forfeit Makalov and Vantage. I'm not sure how reliable this is. It looks like Marcia can just 2HKO Gashilma with a forged Steel Lance at 20/1, but she would need to dodge a 40% critical from a ~50% accuracy attack. 20/2 Marcia has ~75% (and as low as 55% with worst biorythm) displayed hit on Muarim with the Laguz Lance. It is not at all unlikely for Marcia to miss one of her 2 attacks. 100% reliable 3-turn clear strategies exist, so they shouldn't be discounted. Excepting the Super Soren clear, though, they all involve one of the fliers anyway. Does Marcia get the kill on player phase? I thought she had to survive several attacks on enemy phase for the clear (please correct me if I'm wrong). Bullshit. Getting Rescue in 2 turns requires a mounted unit that can survive a lot of enemy attacks (and if it's a Paladin, they need to clear the way to the house on enemy phase as well). I'd post my 5-turn NM draft clear strategy, but seeing as you didn't read the last one, I figure I won't bother. Getting the Energy Drop before the chapter ends requires increasingly high-mov units as you clear the chapter faster. For instance, I don't think it's possible for 7-mov units to get the Energy Drop in 5 turns (with no shove or chant help, of course, since it's a secondary objective). Base Calill + any promoted Mage will 3HKO Schaeffer with Meteor. It's also not impossible for a trained Sage to 2HKO Schaeffer with either Meteor or Bolting. And Bolting can be obtained by a mounted unit on turn 1. I've done it twice now in NM drafts, the first without a single flier (although I did use Tanith to cover up a pothole or two, she never even got attacked). And while increased enemy density on HM might make this more difficult, I'm confident that it can be done. Only because she has more availability. In their shared chapters, Tanith is better with similar resources. Irrelevant? Your fundamental inability to grasp how to use Transformed Boots Reyson, even after I posted a strategy detailing his use, is baffling. Jill does plenty better with 4 more defense and 4 more HP. No, it doesn't. The Boots are not needed for a 2-turn clear of C17-1. Nor does 2-turning C17-1 compromise your ability to 3-turn C17-2 or 2-turn C17-4. End of story. Boots Marcia can save a turn in C17-4. She might also be able to save a turn in C17-2 if you can work out a shove jigsaw puzzle of epic proportions. I'll give this explanation another attempt. A 9-mov unit with the Boots can mov 11 spaces each turn. Transformed Reyson can allow four 9-mov units to advance 18 spaces in a turn. This is impossible to do for more than 1 turn if Reyson does not have the Boots. But we can rescue/take/drop Reyson right behind a wall of mounted units. With 8 mov and Reyson protected from 2-range attacks, this lets us advance 7 spaces forward the next turn, killing any enemies in our way. Reyson vigors the 4. Now they can all move 9 spaces. 2 of them can clear out additional enemies while the other two rescue/take/drop Reyson again. So already we can move 16 spaces each turn, far better than if we just left Reyson behind after turn 1. But with 10 mov from the Boots, Reyson can allow the mounted units to advance a full 18 spaces each turn. Thats four units moving 2 spaces further each turn after the first. That is how he can save us at least a turn in long chapters like 18 and 27 (and maybe 21 and 23). Because of the way Raven reinforcements arrive, I suspect Transformed Boots Reyson can save us 2 turns in C18, but I'd have to verify. Excuse me, I just told you he can (and more). C17-3 is a playground to use however we wish. If Soren is promoted by then (he should be), he can start building up his Thunder rank. If Soren doubles with Elthunder, he gains 4 Wexp for each enemy he attacks. He only needs to engage one enemy per turn to secure C Thunder in C17-3 alone. In full fairness, Adept activation doesn't produce Wexp, so he'll probably need to engage in a couple more battles to get to C Thunder, but it is clearly in the realm of plausibility. Did you miss the part where we're bring four kick-ass mounted unit to clear the path and ORKO everything on enemy phase? As for siege tomes: do your homework - transformed Reyson has 25 Resistance. As far as I can tell, Boots Marcia can potentially save 1 turn in C16, 1-2 turns in C17, 1 turn in C24, and possibly 1 turn in C26. 3-5 turns total. Boots Reyson can save 1-2 turns in C18, 1 turn in C27, and can at least make 2 other chapters a more reliable clear, if not a turn faster (chapters 21 and 23 are most notable). Both Marcia and Reyson should obviously be considered as Boots candidates (as should Jill, who might sacrifice a turn in C17, but is more reliable in her fast-clears). You defended a statement (which Mercenary Raven clarifies was made in jest) that the fliers should have their own tier at the top of the tier list. Ulki is a flier. Titania is not. The statement you defended is absurd. No, I "complained" that low-reliability clears are not efficient. And I figure, if you're going to use unreliable strategies, you might as well make them faster than reliable strategies, no? But I was probably more angry than I should have been when I made my initial response, so I hope that Mercenary Raven will forgive me for that.

We have 3 fliers at this point to chase down and kill uncooperative Ravens in their spawn locations. I'm not positive, but I suspect a 5-turn is possible with Transformed Boots Reyson. Getting Bolting in C16 costs us 1-2 turns and stealling the Meteor in C17-4 seems like all kinds of inefficient, so that 4-turn clear strategy can be safely ignored. As for wielding siege tomes: so long as Soren is promoted before C17-3, he can be trained to C Thunder to wield Bolting before C22. In another draft I actually got Soren to C Fire by C20 and C Thunder by C23 without Arms Scrolls, but I admit that this is not practical under normal conditions. Doubtful. It's a very linear chapter and our 4 mounted units can kill 6 units per player phase while rescue/take/dropping Reyson. The only thing that might impede a fast clear in Hard Mode is differences in the Raven reinforcement number and timing. Looking at the enemy stats data, it looks like it should be possible, but I wouldn't mind verifying. Your turncount was 7, which is the best you can get without Boots Reyson, I believe. I don't understand what your problem is understanding that Transformed Boots Reyson saves turns that Boots Marcia does not. Do you not see how letting 4 mounted units move 2 spaces further each turn (other than the first) would be more valuable than letting 1 mounted unit move 2 spaces further, especially in a rout map? Don't feel obligated to respond. We've both had our say.

You started it. This response seems to have come out of nowhere, but I'll respond anyway... There are no mounted units with equal or better availability below Nephenee on the tier list (unless you count Mist, who's right below Nephenee), so I think it's already clear that Nephenee is inferior to the mounted units. But Nephenee is, alongside Boyd and Ike, one of the best non-mounted combat units. Nephenee can help with routs, especially C17-1 if we've promoted her. She is one of the best rescue/drop candidates. And while rescue/dropping doesn't seem to be your style, I assure you that it is a viable strategy in a few chapters (15, 20, 21, and 25 seem most notable for Nephenee). When we consider playthroughs that don't involve so many mounted units (for whatever reason), Nephenee's value increases further. I don't mean to compete. I'm just trying to point out that there are numerous strategies for completing chapters efficiently. You undoubtedly attempted some of them. There are others that were either impossible based on your resource use or simply didn't come to mind. I'm merely suggesting caution in assuming that your particular LTC run is an exhaustive examination of efficient chapter completion strategies (no single run could be). That is precisely my point! If you had given Jill the exact resources you gave Marcia, you would undoutedly have used Jill much more prominently. Your run demonstrates just one possible resource allocation space. There exist many others that would allow equally efficient play (or better). You gave Tormod more Bexp (he needed more to match Soren's Mag) and the better siege tomes. You deployed Tormod alone in several chapters. Based on your resource use, I don't blame you! Once you've trained Tormod, he is the superior Sage due to his extra movement (the durability argument is really weak, considering that both are squishy and Soren dodges more with an Ike support). But if you hadn't trained Tormod, you would have made the best of Soren and come to a more accurate judgement as to when Tormod's extra movement mattered. On shoving the mounted units: There is no unit that can shove Marcia that fails to shove Titania and Astrid unless we consider Statue Frag'd Brom or Gatrie (and I believe they need to take 2 Statue Frags, neither of which are efficient to get). I suppose it's worth noting that Ranulf doesn't need to be transformed to shove the Pegasus Knights (he does to shove the Paladins). Muarim needs to be transformed to shove the male Cavaliers and Paladins. Lethe is unable to shove the male promoted Paladins. Untransformed Mordecai and transformed Ranulf are unable to shove promoted Jill. I believe transformed Muarim can shove Haar, but I'm not positive. Transformed Mordecai certainly can. Chapter 10: Unless we've given Marcia over 1800 Bexp (pretty much all we have), she will not be promoted in this chapter, so Titania and Lethe have a movement advantage over her. Oscar (if we've promoted him) and Mordecai (if we use a Laguz Stone) might also best her movement. So Marcia isn't even one of our best units here; if we go brute-force she needs a bunch of Bexp to be durable enough to be useful at all. Chapter 11: A 3-turn strategy requires feeding Marcia over 1600 Bexp and is not very reliable. Any two Paladins can get a 4-turn clear with fewer resources expended and greater reliability. But if we want to recruit Jill or Haar, we need to wait until turn 5 to clear anyway. Chapter 12: This is Marcia's big chapter if we give her a large Bexp dump. We can save 6 turns if we don't care to lose Jill, Haar, the Brave Axe, a Seraph Robe, and a Secret Book. As you demonstrated, Marcia can still save us three turns while still letting us recruit Jill, which is pretty cool. It does depend on Jill going directly to Ike, I reckon. Chapter 13: The fliers can be helpful here if we gave them some Bexp, but they aren't required for a 7-turn clear. Titania can continue to dominate here. Chapter 14: Flying doesn't help us complete the chapter any faster, but Marcia does help us recruit Makalov and get Vantage in 3 turns. Chapter 15: Flying is obviously helpful here. Bexp infused Marcia or Jill can get us a somewhat unreliable 2-turn clear or a more reliable 3-turn clear (with some help or without). The Paladins are clearly worthless here. Chapter 16: Flying doesn't help us a lick here. The Boots aren't even necessary for a 5-turn clear, but they might be for a 4-turn clear (which has a harder time getting the Full Guard). Chapter 17-1: It's a rout, so everybody can help out, but Marcia or Jill can help us achieve a 2-turn clear by flying directly north. Boots are most definitely not required (I've done it without). Jill has an easier time ORKOing the northern enemies at 1-2 range. I believe it's possible for a Paladin being shoved by all of the laguz to also clear the northern enemies on turn 2, but my confidence in that possibility is not 100%. They might have needed the Boots. Chapter 17-2: Paladins are close to worthless. Marcia or Jill save a turn or two over the laguz. Chapter 17-3: Whatever. Chapter 17-4: With the Boots, Marcia (or Jill, I believe) can secure a moderately reliable 1-turn clear. Or they can secure a slightly more reliable 2-turn clear with or without the Boots. The Paladins take 4 turns to go the long way around, I believe. Chapter 18: Flying helps very little. Transformed Reyson is the real star of this chapter (especially with the Boots). Marcia and Jill can kill the untrasformed crows off-terrain at the end of the race, letting the transformed ones suicide on enemy phase. Chapter 19: Almost any unit that can ORKO Homasa can 2-turn clear this chapter (with Reyson and shove help). Janaff or Ulki can help us get the Knight Ring for a 3-turn clear. A 1-turn clear might be possible with Boots Marcia (or Tanith) if she and Reyson get super-shoved, but I'm not positive. Chapter 20: The fliers can help us 2-turn this chapter with decent reliability. The Paladins (and any leftover fliers) can help us get Smite and Rescue (very important). Chapter 21: The mounted fliers are very helpful here for being able to traverse and rescue-drop over the moat. Transformed Reyson is the real star here, though. With the Boots, he can help secure a 5-turn clear. The Paladins can help get the Energy Drop treasure and whatever other spoils they can garner. Chapter 22: Siege tomes make this an easy 1-turn clear. Any mounted unit with decent 1-2 range combat can nab the Bolting here. Chapter 23: Fliers definitely have some mobility advantages here, but the chapter can be 4-turned with no combat fliers, just Transformed Boots Reyson and a couple good Paladins. Plus, the fliers need to be extra careful with the Ballistae here. Chapter 24: You keep getting this wrong. There is nothing stopping a competent Paladin from doing exactly what a competent flier can do on this level. I have 4-turned this twice now with a Paladin solo. With the Boots, they can 3-turn it just like Marcia. The bridge chokepoint can be cleared of enemies on turn 1 and a competent Paladin will ORKO all of the rest of the enemies on enemy phase with a forged Hand Axe. They will have considerably better durability with the Knight Ward than Marcia with the Full Guard. Anyways, even if you gave Marcia or Jill the Boots, the Paladins can make themselves useful by securing Savior. Chapter 25: Fliers are very useful, especially the durable kind (Jill and Haar). They can both kill units at the top of the mountain themself or ferry up a better combat unit to help out. The Paladins can do nothing more than kill some enemies at the starting point. Chapter 26: Flying doesn't help here. Extra durability does. Obviously, if Marcia or Jill has the Boots, they can can help get a 3-turn clear, but Marcia in particular has durability issues. Chapter 27: Again, flying doesn't help here. I don't think Boots Marcia/Jill can get a 3-turn clear. Transformed Boots Reyson with a trio of competent mounted units can. Kieran has the best chance of being able to ORKO Hafedd, but it's a stretch even for him. Chapter 28: I need to play this again on Hard Mode to refresh my memory. I know on Normal Mode a risky 2-turn clear exists which only a well-trained Jill or Haar is likely to pull off. This might not be possible (or plausible) on Hard Mode. I've used Transformed Boots Reyson to get a 3-turn clear without any fliers on Normal Mode that I suspect is also possible on Hard Mode. A 3-turn clear without a Laguz Stone is possible with the mounted fliers, so it's at least a small win for them. Endgame: I'm not familiar enough with Hard Mode efficient clears on this chapter to comment. I suspect that the mounted fliers might be slightly more helpful in more reliable clears (being able to ferry Ike around the Bryce/Dragon obstacles), but I could be wrong. ... If the absurdity of this argument is not evidently clear to you, I'm not sure what I can do... If you assume that Marcia is getting a bunch of resources and Tanith isn't, it isn't very surprising that Tanith isn't as good... If you gave Tanith the same set of resources you gave Marcia (including the 1000+ Bexp) for comparison's sake, she would clearly be a better unit than Marcia in their shared availability. That Tanith isn't as good a Boots candidate because she doesn't exist in Chapters 16 and 17 is irrelevant when comparing the two in their shared chapters. And you're wrong, because you haven't considered how helpful Transformed Boots Reyson is on certain chapters, as I've been explaining. Marcia's durability can be a problem in chapters 20, 23, 25, 26, 28, and Endgame. I should know, I used Marcia in a recent draft. She was extremely overleveled, took a Seraph Robe and Dracoshield and yet I still had some problems with her durability - and it was only normal mode. I think Titania is considerably more valuable than Jill or Marcia, but I wouldn't really care if she lost her own tier (I find it mostly cosmetic) so long as she clearly owned the top of top. That seems contradictory. Maybe it's just a matter of semantics, but I don't see how "There is plenty of BEXP to go around" and "you still can't overuse BEXP" can both be true at the same time. On a more practical point, there is more Bexp to go around if you're only training one of {Marcia, Jill}. Oh, I think I misspoke. The Boots might be essential to a 4-turn clear. But it's much more difficult to get the Full Guard in 4 turns, and I don't think it's possible to get the Dracoshield also. No, Marcia only needs a single shove to 2-turn clear of 17-1 without the Boots. Though that might be from a non-optimal deployment slot (for 17-2 and 17-4). Regardless, if you have some other decent combat units (like Titania and/or Oscar), you don't need Lethe or Muarim's combat here anyway. Also, I'm very reluctant to give much credit to a 2-turn Boots Marcia clear of 17-2 because of how insane the shoving involved is. So, Boots Marcia saves 1-2 turns in C17. I performed a 6-turn clear of C18 in a recent Normal Mode draft with Transformed Boots Reyson recently. I might have been able to pull off a 5-turn clear if I didn't re-recruit Shinon (and had a few more shovers). I'm not aware if anything is different on Hard Mode that would prevent a similar strategy. Here's what I did (note that I discovered the magic of rescue/take/dropping Reyson part-way through the chapter): But that's not the relevant argument, because Soren exists and is useful in the second half of the game. You need to demonstrate that Tormod is more useful than Soren in their shared chapters. More than that, you have to argue that the magnitude of this difference in usefulness can completely offset the utility Soren brings before Tormod even exists. I will be making a detailed argument for Oscar > Marcia one of these days.

Well, he shares the relatively rare siege utility with the rest of the Sages. But Tormod is being overhyped as of late, I deem. I think it's worth pointing out that there are 0 units above Tormod on the tier list that have neither a movement nor an availability advantage (except Reyson, who's Reyson). I've already explained in great detail why I believe Soren > Tormod. Tormod vs. the Swordmasters is definitely a difficult comparison, so I'm not too concerned with their relative placements.

With respect to iron forges, I agree. We should have no shortage of generic steel weapons, which have only 2 Mt less than a max-Mt iron forge. By the time C13 rolls around and we've made 5 iron forges already and steel forges are just around the corner, there's little demand for another iron forge. The cost of Soren taking a Thunder forge is minimal.

I apologize in advance if I respond to your posts with undue hostility, but I believe that you're making a huge logical blunder. You are basing your judgements almost primarily on one particular LTC run that you are completing. You have, therefore, intimate knowledge of what can be accomplished with the units you deployed and the strategies you used. However, you do not, on the basis of this one run, have any first-hand knowledge of what is possible with different units or different strategies. This has lead you to many false conclusions, in my judgement - a couple of which are represented in this paragraph alone (and I'll be pointing out more as we go along). In general, you need to be more dedicated and creative coming up with counter-factual clears that differ from your own. It is also not a safe assumption that your clears were all optimal (I know for a fact that several were not). How often you used Titania, Marcia, and Jill is not at all a comprehensive indication of how valuable these units are to efficiency runs in general. I'm confident that I could use Titania plus two of: { Oscar, Marcia, Jill } and accomplish more efficient clears than you. I could use Jill not at all and Marcia sparingly and vica versa. You chose to use Marcia in situations where a Paladin would have done better with similar resources. I could have used Oscar (or Kieran) instead. You chose to use Marcia in situations where Jill or Tanith would have done at least as well (with similar resources). Likewise, you used Tormod from C18 onward: you did not use another Sage. You have first-hand knowledge what Tormod can accomplish but no knowledge (from this run) what Soren or Calill could accomplish in Tormod's stead. You claim, for instance, that Tormod can reach relevant siege targets that the other Sages cannot without ferrying. Your basis for this is that Tormod can reach them. This is half an argument. You also need to demonstrate that Soren cannot (without ferrying). You are quite late in the realization. Take a look at the current tier list. Notice that only three mounted units, Geoffrey, Haar, and Elincia, are lower than High Tier. Also notice that Haar, Geoffrey, and Elincia are still higher than any unit with equal or lesser availability. In fact, the only mounted units that are tiered below a non-mounted unit with equal or lesser availability are Astrid, Makalov, and Tanith tiered below Reyson - the best utility unit in the game, hands down. Also note that no Paladins are tiered above mounted fliers with equal or more availability. So before you propose changes stemming from your newfound realization, understand that you are not alone in realizing how valuable mounted units are in this game. Here, you assume that Marcia or Jill need to ferry Ike to the seize square, when any trained Paladin is at least as well suited for the task (and better than Marcia). Again, this is flatly incorrect. Any durable Paladin can solo this chapter in four turns (with an initial vigor from Reyson). Any durable Paladin with the Boots can pull off a 3-turn clear just like a flier with the Boots. Flying only allows one to avoid fewer enemy attacks on route to the Arrive Square. And even with that advantage, Full Guard Marcia undoubtedly has more durability problems than any trained Paladin with the Knight Ward. And while it is less realistic to give a Paladin the Boots, it is worth pointing out that on Chapter 24: flying is not essential to an efficient clear. Also, there are some valuables in far away houses that we want to get to, so durable units are helpful to get Savior in the north and (less importantly) a durable flier and durable cargo is useful for getting Nihil to the west. Then you should be extra careful not to exaggerate. That there is a lot of Bexp available and enemy units aren't terribly deadly does not mean that taking Bexp is costless or that durability is irrelevant. I would have hoped that your ongoing LTC run would have demonstrated this to you: your units were perpetually underleved despite using up all your Bexp and you frequently restarted due to certain units dying. That is not true. Jill has some combat leads over Tanith, most notably in the physical durability department. Even with significantly more resources, Marcia only leads Tanith by a couple points in Strength. But Tanith has an important advantage by being able to ORKO tough enemies with the magic weapons (Wyvern Lords with the Sonic Sword, Tigers & Cats with the Flame Lance, and some Generals with the Rune Sword). These are enemies that even Jill needs a Silver forge to 2HKO, Marcia might miss altogether, but Tanith can ORKO at 1-2 range. Tanith also has a Speed lead over Jill that lets her double the fastest enemies with very few resources. Tanith also has Reinforce, which is almost always handy and very helpful in C25 in particular. Marcia, Jill, and Reyson are all realistic Boots candidates. But if I were training both Marcia and Jill, I'd prefer to give Jill the Boots. Jill can double everything with a Speedwing and a healthy level lead. Marcia's poor durability is much harder to fix. Even with a Seraph Robe and Dracoshield and the Full Guard, Marcia has durability concerns in the later chapters. On the other hand, Marcia can be shoved by a couple more units, so that might help us pull off some aggressive early-clears. Stop spouting this nonsense. If you give Jill the same amount of Bexp you would give Marcia, she will be at most 1 level behind. Jill is just plain better than Marcia with similar resources. Marcia's big advantage over Jill is C12, which is severely lessened if you're recruiting Jill anyway. Titania can perform at least as well as Marcia, with fewer resources, in many chapters in their shared availability. Chapters 12, 15, 17-2, 17-4, 20, 21, and 25 are big wins for the fliers. Chapters 13, 17-1, 18, 23, 24, 28, and Endgame are potential small wins for the fliers. Titania is at least as good as Marcia (and often better) in Chapters 10, 11, 14, 16, 19, 22, 26, and 27. And then there's the little fact that Titania is by far the most important unit in chapters 1-9 with unique utility. Oh, and lets not forget some thing very important. Titania requires almost no resources to dominate more than half of the game. Marcia and Jill both need a bunch. Let me get this straight... When Marcia needs 1000 Bexp to be useful, there's plenty of Bexp to go around. But when Boyd wants 500 Bexp, that's "ridiculous"? I don't disagree that Marcia makes better use of Bexp, but the costs are also obviously higher when Marcia takes twice as much. My preference is for all unit deployment possibilities to be considered. I think we should consider Marcia's potential 2-turn clear of C12 despite missing out on Jill (and some stat boosters). We should also consider 5-turning C9 despite missing out on Marcia. We should consider both units being recruited and deployed, and we should consider playthroughs where neither Marcia nor Jill are being trained. I realize that this is not a popular position, but I find the alternate (making unit deployment assumptions) dull and ill-suited to tier list debate. It costs us more than just turns: it costs us Resolve at the very least. Transformed Ena without the Demi Band deals 0 damage to Ashnard at base. Even a level 20 Ena deals ~3-4 damage on average. Ena needs Resolve to be able to deal more damage than Ashnard recovers each turn. But Ena is also 2HKO by Ashnard at base, and needs Resolve to avoid being doubled. With a few levels, Ena can double Ashnard herself when in Resolve range, but then Ashnard fails to put her in Resolve range in one hit, making it hard to manipulate. Ena needs to be fully transformed to do anything worthwhile, so we also need to reserve for her a couple Laguz Stone uses, most likely. Defeating Ashnard with greater ease is a big win for Ike, in my opinion. Though, we should also consider Nasir, who can perform decently against Ashnard at base with just Resolve (though he still appreciates the Laguz Stones). LOL! This is the biggest example of your complete inability to consider the counter-factual. In actuality, Boots Marcia/Jill does not save a single turn in C16. A 5-turn is more than possible with just a couple 9-mov units. To be fair, a mounted unit with the Boots might help secure both the Dracoshield and Full Guard in 5 turns, which might not be possible otherwise. As for Chapter 17, the Boots help save 2 turns at the very most. C17-1 can be 2-turned without the Boots. On C17-2, I believe, it is possible to 3-turn without Boots Marcia/Jill, but it requires perfect deployment (which you have to pre-plan) and a lot of shoves. But I also hear that Boots Marcia can 2-turn C17-2 if you get her in perfect position, shove her with all of the laguz plus Statue Frag'd Brom or Gatrie. I'm prepared to give the Boots credit for making a 3-turn easier and a 2-turn theoretically possible in C17-2. C17-4 can be easily 2-turned without the Boots. The Boots make a 1-turn possible, but you forfeit Adept and it's a little more dangerous as a downside. You don't understand how best to take advantage of Transformed Boots Reyson, evidently. If you rescue/take/drop Reyson as you advance, the Boots let 4 9-mov units travel 2 spaces further each turn (18 spaces total). Transformed Boots Reyson can save 1-2 turns in C18 at the very least and makes three other clears more reliable, if not a turn faster (for instance, he can secure a 3-turn of C27 (but perhaps not with Resolve) and a more reliable 4-turn of C23 and a much more reliable 3-turn of C28). C21 is also a good showcase for Transformed Boots Reyson. He can enable a reliable 5-turn clear, but I'm not sure if that's also possible with Boots Marcia/Jill. On the other hand, I think Boots Jill/Marcia can save a turn in C24 and C26. There are certainly pros and cons to giving the Boots to Reyson, but he can make unique turn savings when transformed and therefore cannot be discounted as a Boots recipient. If you give Boyd Wrath and Vantage, he is one of the best units in C25. You can drop him at the top of the mountain with a forged Hand Axe (+crit) and watch him solo it all with high reliability. Without Wrath/Vantage, Boyd doesn't have the durability for a rescue/drop but can still tear up the right or left trails by himself. I don't have strong feelings about Ike vs. Boyd overall, but C25 is clearly one of Boyd's biggest late-game wins, assuming you're training him (which you gave up doing). If you actually read the post I linked, you would see that you are wrong. I compared both the low-resources "staffbot" use of the Mages (earlier in the topic) and the high resources, more combat-focused use of the Mages (in the linked post). My conclusion was that Soren was clearly a better staffbot than Tormod and of very similar utility when given the resources needed to be a capable combat unit. So even if you use Soren's staffbot utility soley as a tiebreaker: Soren > Tormod. I have not seen any new evidence to make me reconsider my earlier evaluation. Soren has some utility before Tormod even joins. Soren still has slightly better offense than Tormod in their shared availability. Tormod's extra movement is helpful in several chapters which is just enough to compensate for Soren's availability leads, in my judgement. Who would laugh, I wonder? You seems motivated to make changes to the tier list based on a newfound realization of just how valuable the mounted units are in efficient PoR play. But the tier list already reflects this realization. So your efforts seem misdirected. Don't exaggerate unless you're prepared to be called out on it.

You heard it here first! Ulki > Titania! And that's only the half of it. Mercenary Raven isn't even getting super-low turncounts. And if your intuition tells you that restarting a chapter multiple times is efficient, you might want to have your intuition checked for faults.

As a point of interest, how does a failed Tormod > Nephenee argument lead to Tormod > Soren (who hasn't been mentioned)? We've been over this in great detail in the recent past. I've only seen one new fact been brought into consideration: that Soren cannot reach relevant siege targets without ferrying that Tormod can - which has not be substantiated (aside from a dubious Meteor use late in C21). Go ahead and make your own tier list, then. You can call it: I tier the units - without a proper sense of costs and benefits - based on a single LTC run where I didn't play very efficiently: and still come to the wrong conclusions. I'm sure it will be a popular topic. I plan to respond to some of the rest of Mercenary Raven's outburst of posts that materialized overnight (my time).

But that's not particularly high praise, especially in Radiant Dawn.

[mock concern]Oh, is Marcia's durability causing you grief?[/mock concern]

Untransformed Leanne is not supposed to trigger pitfalls in 3-11, right? Well, I just happened to rescue/take/drop her into a pitfall which activated.

I thought it self-evident that a game which heavily features randomness is meant to be played with acceptance of that randomness. After all, if IS wanted you to be able to crit bosses every time, they would simply design it such that you could crit bosses every time (unless they're sadistic, which can't be ruled out...). I was under the impression that the early portions of the game were at least as important as "enough later on" when it comes to draft performance. Not if you possess sufficient patience. Then you can just reset until your less durable units dodge all of the attacks they need to survive. "You speak of knowledge, Judicator? You speak of experience? I have journeyed through the darkness between the most distant stars. I have beheld the births of negative-suns and borne witness to the entropy of entire realities... Unto my experience, Aldaris, all that you've built here on Aiur is but a fleeting dream. A dream from which your precious Conclave shall awaken, finding themselves drowned in a greater nightmare." I didn't. You should measure the riskiness of all relevant strategies and make the choice with the lowest expected turn count (factoring in the reset penalty). If you make the correct risk-neutral choice, you have have optimized your expected turncounts. If you get unlucky in a particular instance, so be it. Everybody else in the same situation faces the same risk. It is fair. What flaw were you referring to, then? To expose the absurdity of something, it is often best to take it to its logical extreme. When you do so with reset abuse, you get perfect level-ups, perfect durability, and 100% crit and skill activation rates. Drafts most certainly should be played for fun. I don't find it fun to employ reset-abuse. If somebody else does, then they gain a comparative advantage over me. Why must that be? Can't we have both LTC draft runs which tolerate reseting and efficiency draft runs which use my proscribed rule concerning reseting?

You take a person at their word, just like every other draft rule... I'd say that needing to restart the chapter from the beginning is indeed a penalty. This could be incorporated into the restart penalty where any time you restart you're penalized by the number of turns you had just played (perhaps plus an additional turn penalty for extra-chapter inefficiency). I admit that Fire Emblem games that allow saving mid-battle do encourage reset abuse. There is still a penalty for restarting, it's just minimized (occasionally to triviality). Am I really the only person who detests draft runs rewarding risky low-turn strategies and patience with the reset button as opposed to more reliable, efficient strategies? Am I the only person who actually considers risk mangement an essential skill of the proficient Fire Emblem player? (A skill that is not tested when reseting is not penalized.) Am I the only person that respects the design decision that occasionally player-controlled units miss and occasionally enemies hit and even crit?

Obviously. If there is a 99% chance of happening, you only need concern yourself with it not happening 1/100 times ex post. Playing the game as intended and taking life as it comes are also virtues. Virtues I tend to value a whole lot more than the patience to repeat the same tedium until fortune favors me. You say you like Fire Emblem games, but you don't seem to like them as designed. If you're going to play as if every unit has perfect durability, you're rejecting the game design decision that your units can actually be killed. Availability and movement are extremely valuable without needing to trivialize durability and accuracy artificially by encouraging reset abuse. Everyone executing the same strategy faces the same odds. Your options a priori: execute that strategy under the full understanding and acceptance that you may need to take a restart penalty if the worst happens, or choose a less risky strategy (if possible) to employ. I don't believe it's a flaw for a strategy game to have random elements. Randomness is built into the fabric of the FE games at so many levels. Accept it or don't play.

I have a radical solution to pull off the same thing with Soren: deply him two spaces forward instead of a dedicated shover or somebody who's going to hang back anyway (like Jill). Which is an entirely different, and valid, point.

Bullshit. They are siege tomes. They have frickin' 10 range. That Tormod would be able to hit a relevant target that the other Sages couldn't is really hard to believe. It would have to be a really long, really large chapter. The only one that comes to mind is C21. And siege tomes aren't even that useful in C21. But if we really need a non-Tormod Sage to deal ~5 damage to Ena, we can just use some scrub flier like Janaff to ferry them over the moat. Hell, I'd rather ferry over Soren and Ilyana if they have C Staves because then they can Restore Ike (or whomever) if they get put to Sleep.

Play another draft. The more you play, the less likely you are to get uniformly lucky/unlucky. In fact, it's almost unfathomable to be uniformly lucky/unlucky in a single playthrough. My turn. What happens when a "not so good" patient player reset-abuses so that they complete risky, unreliable strategies and the "legitimately good player" limits themselves to a single playthrough with much more reliable, but occasionally lengthier strategies? What was the point? Exactly. That's why the god units are better. But if you can reset as many times as you want with no penalties, all but the very worst units can perform like gods (by dodging and crit-killing everything). That minimizes the importance of everything that isn't availability and movement (and enough offense to crit-kill). Theoretically, it's identical. But by allowing reseting on the main file, you allow much more than reseting "to find a good strategy". Because if somebody finds a good strategy and executes it flawlessly, they save. If they get unlucky, they can retry the exact same strategy. Or they can just reset if they didn't like their level-ups. So practically, it's very different. That's not nearly good enough, in my opinion. Play the game. If you get unlucky, deal with it. Everyone else will do the same. If you don't like randomness, play a different game.

That all depends on the purpose of the draft. If the purpose is to determine the lowest possible turn counts for different unit configurations, then reseting should be encouraged. If, instead, the purpose of the draft is to determine which set of units as played by a particular drafter is most efficient, resetting should be heavily discouraged. While reseting to discover new strategies is unambiguously good, reseting to undermine randomness is unambiguously bad. Randomness is an integral part of the Fire Emblem games. Both combat (hits, misses, crits, and skill activations) and progression (level-up gains) are all determined by chance. Taken to its extreme, reseting causes durability and growths to be completely worthless because one can simply reset until the unit dodges and levels perfectly (this also applies to reseting for skill activation and/or crits). A draft run with no reset penalties (explicit or otherwise) becomes a competition of patience with the reset button as opposed to a competition of efficient strategy. There is a solution, I think, that allows only the good kind of reseting and not the bad. When you want to experiment with strategies for a given chapter, make a copy of your current save. Test out strategies for as long as you want on this duplicate save, but do not save any of your progress. When satisfied, delete the copy and play the chapter once however you like from the main save. If something catastrophic happens in your main save and you need to restart, take a restart penalty of about 4 turns and try again. Thoughts?

I understand the concept of movement, thank you very much. I am questioning how often extra movment is needed when you are using a 10-range weapon in particular. Did Tormod go the long way around or did you ferry him over the moat? If you ferried him, then I don't see how his extra movement helped. If he went the long way around, I reckon you could have completed the chapter before he got within range to hit Ena. On a vaguely related note, did you consider using Tauroneo to weaken/kill Ena? If he gets into Resolve range (which you can manipulate before you recruit him), he deals 30 damage to Ena with the Laguz Lance at base.

How does extra movement help one siege? Are there some boss weakens that are out of reach of the other Sages (without ferrying) that Tormod can reach unassisted? Calill's Meteor is the first siege tome that's particularly efficient to obtain, but there is a Bolting in a C16 chest and a few siege tomes that can theoretically be stolen in C17-4 and C18.