aku chi

Maybe Anouleth is attempting to establish facts and make an objective comparison as opposed to making an irate 1-sided argument.

My bad, Haar does just barely get 2HKOed by the Ballistae in this chapter without the Full Guard. So he can only tank one hit. With the Full Guard, they barely scratch him, but that's not much of an accomplishment.

I didn't intend to imply that Haar's durability lead was large (over Jill). But unlike Geoffrey, Haar does have a meaningful advantage over all of the other units that share his movement. Geoffrey is filler - good filler - but filler nonetheless. A trained Oscar is likely to best Geoffrey in every way (while a 20/9 Oscar doesn't quite match Geoffrey's base Defense, a support with Ike makes him effectively invincible). Only a very well-trained Jill can match Haar's durability, so he has his uses even in an optimal deployment setting (chapters 25 and 28). And if Jill isn't trained, Haar's durability advantages are even more important. It's certainly possible, and probably realistic for units like Oscar or even Kieran. But Jill joins at a lowly level 8 near the end of Chapter 12, so it takes a lot more to get Jill to 20/9. We probably want to Bexp dump and promote Jill by Chapter 17, so then she needs to gain 8 levels in ~7 chapters. That seems somewhat reasonable, though 20/13 seems out of reach.

Jill can be pretty durable, but she needs to be ~level 20/13 to match Haar's base durability (due to his HP lead). With a Seraph Robe (which is more realistic and more helpful than a Dracoshield), Jill can almost match Haar's base durability at 20/9, which is pretty impressive. I question if Jill can realistically reach those levels by Chapter 23 (especially 20/13). Haar's defensive growths are a little better, as well. Marcia and especially Tanith lose Defense and HP really hard to Haar. They certainly don't have enough to avoid to be relied on, especially without supports - as is the likely scenario whenever drops are considered. They do have a resistance lead, which is worth something in Chapter 25. I like to use one of the Falcon Knights to lure and kill Gromell. Regarding being doubled, it takes a while before any enemy threatens to double base Haar, and Haar can generally gain enough Speed to avoid being doubled by every enemy except, perhaps, a Swordmaster or two in Endgame.

Haar > Geoffrey? Geoffrey's only advantage over Haar is a little Speed. Haar flies, has an availability lead, has better attack, and offers some unique utility as your most durable flier. Chapter 24: Geoffrey isn't a PC here. Haar can help out in a variety of ways. He can contribute to the main charge to Arrive: he doubles (and ORKOs) more than half of the enemy units at base, including the tough Wyvern Riders/Knights. He could also head north or west to visit the houses for treasure. Haar's great durability will allow him to tank some Ballista attacks without the Full Guard (he still needs to be careful in the west, like everyone). Chapter 25: Geoffrey has poor movement here and is not rescuable, so he's effectively trapped at the bottom of the trail. This is arguably Haar's best chapter. As the most durable flier, this puts him in an excellent position to rescue/drop someone at the top of the trail or just head up there himself to take care of business. Haar still doubles most of the enemy units, and can ORKO many more with a Brave weapon (of which he can wield 2 at base). Chapter 26: Haar has no real mobility advantage here, so both Haar and Geoffrey will contribute to the same role. Let's compare their stats, assuming Haar's gotten 3 levels in Chapters 23-25 and Geoffrey's gotten 1 level in Chapter 25: Haar - Level 14 48.95 HP, 22.8 Str, 8.15 Mag, 20.8 Skl, 18.05 Spd, 12.45 Lck, 21.35 Def, 10.6 Res Geoffrey - Level 12 43.65 HP, 18.5 Str, 9.25 Mag, 17.55 Skl, 19.55 Spd, 12.2 Lck, 21.45 Def, 9.45 Res Both units double all Warriors, Generals, Wyvern Lords, and Sages. Geoffrey can double a couple more Halberdiers and Paladins. Geoffrey might fail to 2HKO some Generals and Wyvern Lords, even with a Silver Lance forge. Haar probably needs an Arms Scroll to wield Silver weapons, but if he gets it, he can 2HKO everything. Haar can also pull off more 1-2 range 1RKOs thanks to a 4 Att advantage over Geoffrey (3 Str and 1 Mt). Chapter 27: Again, Haar has no mobility advantage. Both units can either charge up the center or try to help get some treasure. The enemies are similar to those in chapter 26, though Geoffrey might be able to double a few more enemy types if he gained a few levels in Chapter 26 (especially if the Knight Ward was involved). Chapter 28: Being the most durable flier, Haar is an excellent candidate to Rescue/Drop Ike over the trees. Geoffrey can be some help clearing out the starting area, or contributing to a non-flier clear of this chapter. Endgame: This chapter is all about Ike, but Haar and Geoffrey can both be a help clearing out enemies. It's hard to say whether Geoffrey's Speed lead (which might be very large with a level lead and Knight Ward use) is more important that Haar's attack lead here. The enemies are mighty fast here, but Haar can wield a Brave weapon to pull off some 2HKOs. This comparison seems pretty clear-cut. Haar is clearly more valuable in chapters 24, 25, and 28 and approximately equally valuable in chapters 26, 27, and Endgame.

Isn't Elincia's Rescue staff use critical for a 1-turn clear of 4-5? She also has pretty unique Rescue staff utility throughout 4-E, what with her 9 mov and all. Edit: She is pretty high up, though.

Haar and Jill can't deal anywhere close to the amount of damage to Deghinsea that the Lions can (maxed Jill deals 20 with Urvan and Ena, base Caineghis does 42 with Ena). Neither Haar nor Jill can ORKO Sephiran like Giffca can at base. Haar also can't double Auras, so his 4-E-5 is far inferior. And while Jill can pull off a ORKO on a Wardwood Aura, she needs all three Dragons, whereas the Reavers and max-strength Caineghis and Giffca can pull it off with only Nasir and one red dragon.

It's only Wrath, which I'm sure Repulsif would be aware of. The class crit bonuses are displayed (and aren't skills in PoR). I'm not sure if Bond Support crit bonuses are displayed, so that might be relevant (http://www.serenesfo...pport_bonus.htm).

Be aware also that if your 25% crit unit doubles he/she will have a 44% chance to crit at least one hit.

I previously addressed Skrimir's performance in a few posts starting here. I suppose I should clarify that Skrimir does need to take a Speedwing to definitely be one of our three best units in 4-3 a particularly good 4-E candidate: he makes great use of the 3-9 Speedwing.

I don't know why you're grouping Skrimir with Caineghis and Giffca: they have different availability. The way I see it (high-level): Kieran and Geoffrey basically have two average-length chapters where they compete for being the best units (they are hands down the two best in 2-3 and only Marcia can make a case for being comparably useful in 3-9). Kieran also has the slim potential to do something useful outside of those two chapters. Skrimir, meanwhile, is one of the three best units in an average-length chapter (4-P) and a lengthy chapter (4-3). He's also a good endgame candidate. Caineghis and Giffca are some of the best units in 4-E-1, 4-E-3, 4-E-4, and 4-E-5 (the latter three being very short chapters). They can do some things that only a very well-trained Skrimir or Reaver can match (sans the movement for the Reaver). But there are a multitude of great units available in endgame, such that ignoring the two royal Lions doesn't hurt us terribly (it probably only costs a turn in 4-E-3 if we bench both of them).

They can be dropped such that only one of those Tigers can attack the Sage. I think a Raven might also be able to attack, hence the need for the extra durability, but I'm not sure (actually, the Raven could undoubtedly be lured away if he was an issue). The Sage's 6 mov might be needed for that safer drop position I'm talking about. I'm positive that a 20/1 Soren can safely be dropped on turn 3, and I'm pretty sure that trying it with an unpromoted Mage is just asking for trouble. Calill can ORKO at 1-2 range, that is true. But that isn't relevant if she can't get to any enemies with her 6 mov. Soren and Ilyana face the same problem. After Chapter 20, they might be able to get a 1-2 range attack on turn 1 if they're lucky, but then they're too far behind to do anything except siege or use staves. Chapter 25 is the most likely showcase for their 1-2 range combat, because the Paladins have crappy mov and it's a rout chapter, but it's also a chapter where siege magic and healing are very valuable. Calill might be able to contribute with 1-2 range attacks for a secondary objective (getting treasure) in chapters 20, 21, 24, and 27, but only if the group she's with is all <=7-mov. And while Calill (and Soren and Ilyana) can ORKO, so can a bunch of other units with better movement and durability. The unique utility they offer is siege magic and (in Soren and Ilyana's cases) staff use.

Well, it all depends on how much Bexp you feed them. I was supposing ~850-950 Bexp to have 20/1 Soren/Ilyana by Chapter 15. They really need to be promoted to be able to handle a drop scenario in Chapter 15 (for the durability as much as anything). If you don't want/need to drop Soren/Ilyana in Chapter 15, you can cut back on the Bexp and promote them in Chapter 17's base without much loss otherwise. Calill is so hard to compare to the other Mages, because she's played so much differently. To even compare with no-resources Calill, the Mages need a bunch of Bexp. But they have more availability and other advantages (staff utility and movement in Tormod's case). Calill is pretty much all siege utility (which I love), which is hard to evaluate in comparison with the more robust, if costly, performances of the Mages. If we make strong optimal deployment assumptions (which I'm against), Calill is the only Sage that gets used, so she is clearly the best. But the fact remains that the Mages (even Ilyana) can contribute more in a playthrough if we give them the resources they need. To be honest, I believe that Calill is more comparable to the likes of Haar and Volke (who are too low, in my opinion) than the Mages. All three are low-resources, special-purpose units with a couple notable chapters where they can make big contributions. I'm certainly comfortable with Calill being higher than Devdan, Brom, and Geoffrey, who offer nothing vaguely unique, but I'm undecided about how to compare Calill with the Mages and Rhys.

I would now like to analyze the chapter-by-chapter contributions from the Mages when we invest in them enough resources to ORKO and make other relevant combat contributions. This will probably take around 1000 Bexp, 2-3 forges, and maybe even an Arms Scroll. Some of this analysis will be redundant with my previous post, but I hope enough is novel here to be worth posting and reading. Chapter-by-Chapter Contributions: Chapter 4: Soren can chip here and there, but probably isn't contributing much towards completing the chapter (he can deal good damage to the boss, but gets 2HKO'd in return). Chapter 5: Self improvement for Soren. He can reach level 3 by the end of the chapter. Chapter 6: Soren is a deadweight here. Chapter 7: This is a rout, and Soren can contribute by teaming up with Mia or Oscar or Ike or Boyd for kills, because they aren't (with the possible exception of a blessed Boyd or Ike) ORKO machines at this point. Soren can easily get to level 5 by the end of this chapter. Chapter 8: Well, Soren can take ~800 Bexp to ORKO everything in this chapter, but that won't notably help our efforts, so Soren can just use this for self improvement to get up to level 7. Ilyana can chip a few rounds for some Cexp. Chapter 9: Soren and Ilyana need to be around level 9-10 (200-350 Bexp) to double the non-Myrmidons on the beach. They won't be able to ORKO without a forge (not affordable at this point), but they can help out a little. Chapter 10: If you stealth, the Mages do nothing. If you brute-force, they still probably do nothing. Chapter 11: Again, with enough Bexp and a forge, Soren and Ilyana can become ORKO machines, but this won't much help our efforts. At level 11, Soren/Ilyana can still double and 3HKO most enemies, so they can contribute a little getting to the south or north houses. Chapter 12: Unless we early-clear with Super Marcia, we have several turns for our Mage to chip against Ravens for self-improvement. Hardly anybody can double the Ravens, so Soren/Ilyana's contributions on player phase are as good as most (Soren can almost 2HKO with Elwind). Of course, they can't tank the Ravens, so they need to be kept safe (trivial). They can reach level 13 or 14 here. Chapter 13: To early-clear this chapter, we need to rout the enemies, and Soren/Ilyana can help here. With a Fire or Thunder forge, a level 14 Soren can ORKO everthing he doubles (he misses the Ravens, the Halberdiers, and most Myrmidons). A level 14/15 Ilyana misses out on a lot of doubles. If we give her a Speedwing, she can match Soren's performance with a Thunder forge. Chapter 14: Soren/Ilyana are likely to get left behind here. They can contribute on turn 1 by granting vision (Mages have better vision than most). Chapter 15: Soren/Ilyana can deal great damage to Muarim while avoiding his counter-attacks, so they are worth considering as a drop candidate for a 3-turn clear. We will almost certainly want to promote them for this strategy. From level 16, it will take ~650 more Bexp (or 500 and a Seal) to get them to 20/1. With a fire forge, Soren can deal 19 damage, 21 with a Spirit Dust. Ilyana can deal 17 or 19. All at 100% accuracy. This is enough to let your trained flier 2HKO Muarim (player phase and enemy phase) with a Steel forge or maybe even OHKO with a Laguz Lance if you want to risk the inaccuracy. With even more resources (20/5 + Speedwing + Spirit Dust), Soren can pull off an impressive ORKO of Muarim, but that's probably only relevant in draft play. Chapter 16: If we give Tormod 977 Bexp, he can get up to level 16. Now he's received about the same resources as Soren/Ilyana. He's received a little more Bexp, but received it later when it isn't quite as valuable, and hasn't needed any Cexp (some of which other units were deprived of when Soren/Ilyana received them). In this chapter, Soren and Ilyana are going to be left behind, in all likelihood. They can stay behind and pick off the reinforcements for no reason other than self-improvement. Tormod might also struggle to keep up here with only 7 mov. He can't double the Myrmidons or even all of the Mages, so he can't do much either (if he gets to the Knights, he can 2HKO with a forge). He might want to just wait for the reinforcements for Cexp. Chapter 17-1: A rout chapter where the Mages might be able to help out a little. Let's take a look at their stats: 20/2 Soren 31 HP, 3 Str, 19 Mag, 21 Skl, 18 Spd, 11 Lck, 7 Def, 20 Res 20/2 Ilyana 30.75 HP, 6.75 Str, 16.5 Mag, 18.75 Skl, 15.5 Spd, 12.75 Lck, 7.25 Def, 19.5 Res 17 Tormod 25 HP, 4 Str, 14.5 Mag, 13 Skl, 13.5 Spd, 11.5 Lck, 6.5 Def, 13.5 Res Soren is in great shape, being able to ORKO every enemy except the reinforcement Myrmidons (who are devilishly fast). Ilyana with a Speedwing is almost as good, but Tormod and sans-Speedwing Ilyana are just going to be able to chip here (Tormod with 1 extra mov). Chapter 17-2: All three Mages are likely to get left behind in this race to the finish. Chapter 17-3: Defending is trivial, so this is the longest self-improvement chapter in the game. In addition to getting a bunch of Cexp (Tormod might even promote here), the Mages probably want to focus on improving key weapon levels. Soren and Ilyana want to get C Fire (ideally by Chapter 20 for Meteor), while Tormod might want to work towards C Thunder (by Chapter 23 for Bolting), but only after he's promoted. Thanks to the vast amount of enemies and Venin weapons, it also shouldn't be difficult for Soren/Ilyana to find a healing targets. Soren/Ilyana might even reach D Staves during this chapter if you've been taking advantage of every healing opportunity. Chapter 17-4: I don't see any of the Mages doing much here. Chapter 18: If Tormod hasn't promoted yet, we should Seal / Bexp (<100) him. Soren/Ilyana will be left behind in this race while a newly promoted Tormod just might keep up. Soren/Ilyana are destined to stay behind and help deal with the reinforcements. A promoted Tormod can double most of the enemies here, and with a forge and Spirit Dust, he can 2HKO them all, so that's nice. Chapter 19: It's over before the Sages can do much. Chapter 20: If your Sages have C Fire, they can siege bomb Shiharam. They're likely to do at least as well as base Calill, but not much better... They can also help visit houses, but they need to be careful because the Wyvern Riders here can easily kill the Sages if they have the opportunity. Chapter 21: Soren/Ilyana's poor movement definitely hurts them here. The best they can hope for is to accompany some units up north on a chest looting quest. Tormod isn't much better, because while he can keep up for a few turns, he's unlikely to be ferried to the throne room, so he might also be helping to loot some chests. Chapter 22: So, there's this guy named Schaeffer that we might want to siege-bomb. Let's take a look at the stats now, assuming 7 levels for Tormod and 5 for Soren/Ilyana since Chapter 17-1: 20/7 Soren 33.25 HP, 3.25 Str, 22 Mag, 23.75 Skl, 20 Spd, 12.5 Lck, 7.75 Def, 22.75 Res 20/7 Ilyana 33 HP, 8 Str, 19 Mag, 21 Skl, 17 Spd, 15 Lck, 8 Def, 22 Res 20/4 Tormod 32 HP, 7.2 Str, 18.2 Mag, 17.4 Skl, 18.2 Spd, 13.6 Lck, 10 Def, 18.2 Res To 2HKO Schaeffer, our Sage needs 24 Magic. Soren gets this with a Spirit Dust (a B Ike Support gives him +1 attack in case he is slightly Mag-screwed). Tormod, interestingly, can have up to +5 attack from his supports at this point, so if you've been fielding Devdan, Calill, and Reyson, and gave Tormod a Spirit Dust, he can pull off the 2HKO. If Ilyana has fully supported with Mia and Mordecai, and taken a Spirit Dust, she too might be able to pull off the 2HKO. It's not a huge deal if the Sage misses out on the 2HKO; they can always tag-team with base Calill for the kill, at the expense of an extra Meteor use. Of course, Soren and Ilyana need to develop C Fire for this. While this isn't too hard, Fire magic does have to be purposefully used, which isn't necessarily optimal for Soren and Ilyana. A single Arms Scroll will work as well if they don't have C Fire. Chapter 23: I like to siege the Ballistae operators in this chapter (to clear the way for Reyson). With Bolting (easily obtained in Chapter 22), Spirit Dust Soren can OHKO all but one of the operators. Bolting requires C Thunder, which isn't trivial to get along with C Fire, so it might be necessary to use an Arms Scroll for one of them. Ilyana and Tormod need some lucky level-ups and/or both Spirit Dusts (the latter of which is generally inefficient to get) to have a chance to OHKO the Ballistae operators here. However, with a Speedwings or Energy Drop, they might be able to double some of the operators with Meteor, which is pretty cool. All three Sages, but definitely Soren and Ilyana, may need to be ferried to get within range of the Ballistae. Otherwise, the Sages can't do much in this chapter except inconsequentially fight reinforcements. Chapter 24: A race to the finish will leave Soren/Ilyana behind. Tormod can mostly keep up and heal/attack as needed. Chapter 25: The last rout chapter, so let's take another look at stats, assuming 3 levels for Soren/Ilyana and 4 levels for Tormod (a bit generous, but maybe we throw them a little Bexp): 20/10 Soren 34.6 HP, 3.4 Str, 23.8 Mag, 25.4 Skl, 21.2 Spd, 13.4 Lck, 8.2 Def, 24.4 Res 20/10 Ilyana 34.35 HP, 8.75 Str, 20.5 Mag, 22.35 Skl, 17.9 Spd, 16.35 Lck, 8.45 Def, 23.5 Res 20/8 Tormod 34 HP, 8 Str, 20 Mag, 19 Skl, 20 Spd, 15 Lck, 11 Def, 20 Res Soren and Tormod can double all of the enemies except the Swordmasters and fast laguz. Ilyana struggles to double a lot of enemies unless we gave her a Speedwing. 20/22 Magic and a Fire/Thunder forge is generally enough to 2HKO most enemies, but Soren's extra Magic and Adept can come in handy against some of the foes. Of course, we're going to have trouble getting Soren and Ilyana to reach many enemies in the first place. If they have C Staves (possible if healing was a priority), they're probably best off healing with Physic. Soren, in particular, is pretty impressive with his 12-13 Physic range, letting him heal across the map. They can also use siege tomes to clear out some of the more pesky enemies. Doubling with Blizzard might be possible here, although Ilyana and Tormod might need an Arms Scroll to weild it. Tormod can keep up on the mountain trails, healing and attacking as needed. All of the Sages can tank and deal decent damage against Gromell, if he can be lured to them (Soren being the best for this task). Chapter 26: The Sages probably won't be doing much to help in this straight-forward chapter. Tormod might be able to keep up and clear some enemies, but he has to be careful not to get swarmed. If they can get in range (easy for Tormod), they might be able to weaken Bertram with siege magic. Chapter 27: Tormod can keep up and contribute offensively here. Soren/Ilyana probably won't be able to do anything except Physic and siege (hopefully Hafedd). Chapter 28: Tormod might be able to keep up and help on offense (especially with a Fire forge against beast laguz). Soren/Ilyana can siege if any uses are left. Endgame: The Sages probably aren't going to make big contributions in endgame. They can use up the remaining siege tomes to help clear out Dragons or Bryce. If they have C Staves (trivial for Soren/Ilyana, possible for Tormod), they can help heal during the Ashnard fight. They should all have the Physic range to stay out of Ashnard's range while they heal. In summary: Soren and Ilyana can make some minor contributions in the early-mid game, possibly a significant contribution in Chapter 15. Tormod needs to promote before he can gain any noticeable advantages over the other Sages. Once promoted, he can make better contributions in the chapters which are a footrace (18, 21, 24, 26, 27, 28, and maybe 23 & 25). Soren's greater magic can help secure more impressive siege tome performances in chapters 22 and 23, if he gets the weapon levels. Ilyana's poor Speed is noticeable throughout the game. A Speedwing really helps out in that respect, but it is a high-competition resource. Having done this examination, my general impression of the Mages' potential performances: Low-resources / Staffbot: Soren > Ilyana >> Tormod High-resources / Trained: Soren ~= Tormod >> Ilyana I wouldn't use Tormod as a staffbot. I can't use him as my only staff user (due to staff level), and I really don't need a second staff user. Even 300 Bexp and a Master Seal isn't worth what I get. Training Tormod, on the other hand, is costly, but it does result in a pretty good combatant with siege and healing utility. With Ilyana, I'm not sure it pays to train her. Even after investing almost 1000 Bexp and a Speedwing, Ilyana is just a decent combatant with poor durability and movement. Her only real value is in staff use and siege magic, which I can get sufficiently with staffbot Ilyana and base Calill for a lot lower cost. Soren, I can use competently as both a staffbot and a trained fighter/sieger, with the only downside (compared with Ilyana) being that I need to keep him alive and feed him some kills in chapters 4-8.

It would take at least 2-3 extra turns to get the Chapter 16 Physic and Bolting; they're way out of the way. That might even put us past the Bexp turn limit, so we would have to sacrifice some Bexp, too. As for Chapter 20, I haven't attempted a 2-turn clear, so I'm not sure how practical it is to get the Rescue Staff, Smite Scroll, and steal the Physic in 2/3 turns. Physic can definitely make Chapter 25 easier; it might even be able to save a turn, so I think spending an extra turn to get a Physic is reasonable, if you can't make the Chapter 15 Physic last. You might also be able to save some Meteor uses that the 2-turn strategy requires, and maybe get Shine and the Provoke Scroll drops. A 3-turn clear sounds very reasonable to me. In general, I think spending an extra turn to get a treasure rarely pays for itself later: the Boots, Rescue Staff, and Resolve Scroll are probably the biggest exceptions. But on the other hand, there usually exist (N+1)- turn strategies that are less risky/costly than N-turn strategies, so if you can combine a valuable treasure or two with a less risky clear, that seems worthwhile to me.

First, to be clear: my focus in this topic thus far has been on the staffbot, or low-resources, use of the Mages and Mist. With this playstyle, there are two big reasons why Mist's movement advantages are more important than Tormod's: 1) Canto is a huge advantage. Mist/Tormod can still fall behind in straight-up race maps due to 9 mov units. Mist can take her action first each turn, moving to heal and cantoing up her full 8 movement and so will always have a staff target for the first 8 turns (the whole chapter, essentially). Tormod cannot do this, so if he can't reach the frontline units after their turn actions, and must therefore heal before they move, he cannot take advantage of full movement, and will fall behind in 2-3 turns. Canto also helps Mist reposition herself to a safer location after healing (particularly important in Endgame if she doesn't have the Physic range to outrange Ashnard) 2) Mist has a higher staff rank than Tormod, which means that she can use Restore and Ward well before Tormod (which need to be used at 1 range, and therefore require more movement). She can also use Rescue (more movement = more effective) and Sleep (closer = better), which Tormod probably cannot. Mist is a better staffbot also because she exists during chapters 9-15 (even if she isn't anything special). Tormod does have better movement in Chapter 25, better offense, siege magic, and can be rescue-dropped, which is worth something. But Tormod's poor availability and staff rank result in him being the worst staffbot, in my opinion. Mr. Anouleth's suggestion was to give Mist ~300 Bexp at some point during chapters 9-15 and then she will be Level 10 (through Sexp) at the beginning of chapter 16 to be given a Master Seal. Maybe it might take up to 400 Bexp, but not too much more than Tormod needs for an insta-seal. If you want a Mist that can hold her own in combat, then you will need to give her more resources, but that would be an unfair comparison with the staffbot Mages. Chiming in on the Physic availability discussion, I agree that many of the possible Physics are in inefficient-to-obtain locations (including the Chapter 16 treasure), but Chapter 15's Physic can take us a long way, so long as we use it conservatively and don't spam it for exp. It can probably take us up to Chapter 25, where it's plausible to nab another (it's a rout chapter so we need to reach each enemy, the Paladins don't race ahead of Volke here, and the Bishop in question does not weild Sleep or Purge). That will easily hold us until Endgame, where we can purchase another Physic.

1) I don't think it's so clear. Low resources Mist (<300 Bexp + Master Seal) has her own set of pros and cons when compared with staffbot Soren/Ilyana: + Chip healing in chapters 9 and 10. - Inferior performance in chapters 11 - 15 (or until whenever Mist promotes). + 2 more mov and canto post-promotion (huge advantage). Allows her to mostly keep up with the 9-movers and use 1-range staves, makes her better with the Rescue staff, and canto gives her more positioning possibilities. + A slightly higher staff level. - Inferior Physic range to Soren. - Inferior offense, especially to Soren (Mist can probably 2HKO Bishops and Sages with a Steel Forge but needs two Arms Scrolls and the Sonic Sword to do any kind of damage to other foes). - No siege magic. I could certainly agree that staffbot Mist's post-promotion movement advantage outweighs staffbot Soren's advantages, but it's still clear that Soren/Ilyana have some advantages. 2) I understood that this tier list did not assume optimal deployment, so staffbot Soren/Ilyana's performance should definitely be considered for playthroughs that don't involve Mist. I can agree with this.

I can't say I've actually executed this strategy before and I guess I didn't think it through enough. I thought Tanith would take a beating from the Wyvern Knights on turn 1 just getting close enough to the arrive square, but I guess she would be in Heal range at that point, so Physic wouldn't be needed. Physic might still be useful if you didn't execute this particular strategy for whatever reason (maybe you don't have a second flier durable enough or aren't deploying Calill or Tanith for some reason).

Regarding Tormod vs. Soren/Ilyana, I've posted extensively in this topic already, but I'd like to do a chapter-by-chapter comparison of the Mages' contributions. The way I see it, there are two relevant approaches to using the Mages. The low-resources approach involves giving the Mages about 300 Bexp and a Master Seal and using them primarily as a staffbot. The time to promote Soren and Ilyana with this approach is Chapter 11 (right after you get the first Master Seal). Tormod should be promoted before Chapter 16. While they are primarily staffbots, the Sages still have some offense, and can contribute here and there with regular 1-2 range magic (with one forge, perhaps) and siege magic. The intention of the staffbot Sage is not to supplement another staff user (Rhys or Mist) but to be your sole staff user. Chapter-by-Chapter Contributions: Chapter 4: Soren can chip here and there, but probably isn't contributing much towards completing the chapter (he can deal good damage to the boss, but gets 2HKO in return). Chapter 5: Self improvement for Soren. He can probably reach level 3 by the end of the chapter. Chapter 6: Soren is a deadweight here. Chapter 7: This is a rout, and Soren can contribute by teaming up with Mia or Oscar or Ike or Boyd for kills, because they aren't (with the possible exception of a blessed Boyd or Ike) ORKO machines at this point. Soren can easily get to level 5 by the end of this chapter. Chapter 8: Self improvement for Soren. He can probably get up to level 7 here. Ilyana can chip a few rounds for some Cexp. Chapter 9: Bexp Ilyana or Soren to level 9 (200-250 Bexp) and they'll be somewhat competent helping out on the beach. They tank magic attacks but are otherwise 2-3HKO. But they can double the Mages and Fighters and 3HKO them. Nothing special, but it helps Mia or whomever else you send to the beach. Chapter 10: If you stealth, the Mages do nothing. If you brute-force, they still probably do nothing. Chapter 11: Bexp up to level 10 (<50 Bexp) and seal Ilyana/Soren. In addition to gaining staves, promotion improves their offense, durability, and movement. In this chapter they can heal when needed and still deal decent damage if attacking/attacked (they double and 3HKO most foes: Adept lets Soren turn some of those into ORKOs). Chapter 12: Unless we early-clear with Super Marcia, we have several chapters for our Sage to heal or chip as needed: self-improvement. Chapter 13: Soren/Ilyana can heal when needed and also chip in when needed. Their offense could come in handy if we're trying to get an early rout-clear (still mostly doubling and 3HKOing, though they can pull off 2HKOs with a forge). Chapter 14: Soren/Ilyana should have D Staves by now, so they can light the way with Torch. Chapter 15: Staffbot Soren/Ilyana can deal decent damage to Muarim, but it probably isn't worth risking their poor durability with a rescue-drop. So they don't do anything here. Chapter 16: Tormod can be given 301 Bexp and Master Sealed. Soren/Ilyana are easily 10/3 by now, and they will at least keep this level lead over Tormod because they're getting the bulk of their exp from staves. They might even extend the lead thanks to having access to higher-level staves, which award far more exp, but I'll assume a constant 2 level lead. Let's take a look at their stats: 10/3 Soren 26.95 HP, 2.55 Str, 13.6 Mag, 16.05 Skl, 14.4 Spd, 8.3 Lck, 5.65 Def, 15.05 Res 10/3 Ilyana 26.7 HP, 4.5 Str, 12 Mag, 14.7 Skl, 12.8 Spd, 8.7 Lck, 5.9 Def, 15 Res 10/1 Tormod 25.5 HP, 4.6 Str, 12.35 Mag, 12.2 Skl, 12.35 Spd, 9.05 Lck, 6.75 Def, 12.35 Res Their stats are pretty similar, the only notable advantage is Soren's +2 AS when he isn't weilding a heavy tome (plus Adept). In other news, Tormod starts with E Staves while Ilyana and Soren are at D and are working towards C. Tormod does have a nice movement advantage, which will give him more healing options before Soren/Ilyana get to C Staves. Tormod's movement advantage is pretty important in Chapter 16. Soren/Ilyana will get left behind after a few turns if not rescued. Chapter 17-1: A rout chapter where the Sages might be able to help out a little. Only Soren is likely to ORKO, and only with an Adept activation. But if chipping is needed, Tormod has more movement to get where he needs to be. Chapter 17-2: Even Tormod is likely to get left behind in this race to the finish, the best the Sages can hope for is a couple turns of healing. Chapter 17-3: Defending is trivial, so this is the longest self-improvement chapter in the game. Thanks to the vast amount of enemies and Venin weapons, it shouldn't be difficult for any of the Sages to find a healing target for 7-9 turns. Soren/Ilyana will likely reach C Staves during this chapter, just as Tormod reaches D Staves. Chapter 17-4: I don't see any of the Sages doing much here. Chapter 18: Similar to Chapter 16, Soren/Ilyana will be left behind in this race while Tormod just might keep up. However, Soren/Ilyana can still heal your advancing line with Physic if needed. Or they can stay behind and help deal with the reinforcements. Chapter 19: It's over before the Sages can do much. Chapter 20: Physic is might be important in this chapter if you send fliers up to the Arrive square. They can take a beating and might need healing. Tormod can't weild Physic yet. He can help in the north or siege-bomb to weaken the Wyvern Riders, but so can Soren/Ilyana. Chapter 21: Sleep Bishops are a big threat in this chapter, so having a staff user with Restore is wise. Tormod can't weild it, but Soren/Ilyana can. They probably need to be ferried to keep up, but it's worth it lest Ike or someone else important succombs to Sleep. Tormod can maybe help get a treasure in the north (Energy Drop, perhaps). Chapter 22: So, there's this guy named Schaeffer that we might want to siege-bomb. Let's take a look at the stats now, assuming 5 levels since Chapter 16: 10/8 Soren 29.2 HP, 2.8 Str, 16.6 Mag, 18.8 Skl, 16.4 Spd, 9.8 Lck, 6.4 Def, 17.8 Res 10/8 Ilyana 28.95 HP, 5.75 Str, 14.5 Mag, 16.95 Skl, 14.3 Spd, 10.95 Lck, 6.65 Def, 17.5 Res 10/6 Tormod 28 HP, 5.6 Str, 14.6 Mag, 14.2 Skl, 14.6 Spd, 10.8 Lck, 8 Def, 14.6 Res --/6 Calill 32 HP, 8 Str, 19 Mag, 18 Skl, 18 Spd, 16 Lck, 8 Def, 17 Res I include Calill's base stats to demonstrate that she is clearly the best siege tome user. With Meteor, Calill can deal 21 damage per hit. So if we vigor her, she leaves Schaeffer with 9 HP, which any of the other Sages can finish off with a single Meteor use. Tormod can weild Meteor at base, but Soren and Ilyana aren't quite so lucky. Blizzard isn't available and the Chapter 16 Bolting isn't efficient to retrieve, so Soren and Ilyana need C Fire to siege Schaeffer. They get D Fire when they promote in Chapter 11, so they would have needed to use Fire 50 times or Elfire 25 times to reach C Fire. It's certainly possible, but not likely to happen accidently (especially considering that Ilyana would prefer to weild (El)Thunder and Soren would prefer Elwind or a Thunder forge.) If we don't want to use Calill for some reason, Soren is the only one who has a chance to kill Schaeffer on turn 1. He 3HKOs Schaeffer, so he needs to activate Adept once in addition to getting vigored by Reyson. He has a 34% chance of doing so. Chapter 23: I like to siege the Ballistae operators in this chapter (to clear the way for Reyson). Unfortunately, staffbot Sages can't ORKO any of them, so that reduces the appeal of this strategy. Otherwise, the Sages can't do much. Chapter 24: A race to the finish will leave Soren/Ilyana behind, but they can heal with Physic if need be. Tormod can mostly keep up and heal/attack as needed. Chapter 25: I find that Physic users are pretty valuable in this chapter. The stones deal a bunch of set damage, and sending a flyer (with or without cargo) up to the top can put units in danger far away from your starting point. Staffbot Tormod might just be able to weild Physic here. If he can, he can be a big help with his extra movement. If he can't he can still climb up the trail and help out with 1-range heals. Soren/Ilyana will probably be able to reach to the top on turn 2 to heal flier or cargo, though Ilyana might struggle with Physic range. Chapter 26: The Sages can heal if needed, nothing special. Chapter 27: Tormod can keep up and contribute offensively here if needed. Soren/Ilyana, meanwhile, will probably have B Staves, which opens up some Rescue/Sleep possibilities which may or may not help. Chapter 28: More of the same, Tormod might be able to keep up and help on offense (especially with a Fire forge against beast laguz). Soren/Ilyana can try to put pesky enemies to Sleep or Rescue Reyson or a flyer forward a little. Endgame: The later staves give a bundle of exp, so here are the staffbots' expected ending levels: 10/14 Soren 31.9 HP, 3.1 Str, 20.2 Mag, 22.1 Skl, 18.8 Spd, 11.6 Lck, 7.3 Def, 21.1 Res 10/14 Ilyana 31.65 HP, 7.25 Str, 17.5 Mag, 19.65 Skl, 16.1 Spd, 13.65 Lck, 7.55 Def, 20.5 Res 10/12 Tormod 31 HP, 6.8 Str, 17.3 Mag, 16.6 Skl, 17.3 Spd, 12.9 Lck, 9.5 Def, 17.3 Res Physic range is key in this chapter. Soren shouldn't have much trouble being able to heal Ike/Royal while staying out of Ashnard's range, but Ilyana/Tormod might not be so lucky. They might need a Spirit Dust and/or extra Bexp for this role. In summary: Soren and Ilyana can be effective as your sole staff user from Chapter 11 onwards with an early seal. Soren, in particular, can also contribute a little in combat. Staffbot Tormod, on the other hand, can't sufficiently operate as your sole staff user. He doesn't exist during Chapters 11-15 and can't weild Restore in Chapter 21. He can contribute a little offensively, though, and so might be considered as a secondary staff user. The second way to use the Mages is to train them so that they can consistently ORKO, use siege tomes in key places, and use staves occasionally as an added bonus. This approach is more Bexp intensive, but the Mages can contribute more. I'd like to do a chapter-by-chapter analysis of this approach later (perhaps tomorrow), so stay tuned...

- The big benefit, as I said, is availability. Healing in chapters 11-15 > not existing. - Another benefit is the higher staff level. Crucially, staffbot Tormod can't weild Restore in Chapter 21, probably can't weild Physic in Chapter 25, and probably can't weild Rescue at all. - Yet another benefit is a higher level. If Ilyana gets sealed at level 10 before Chapter 11, she has 5 chapters in which to gain Sexp, so she'll probably be around 10/4 when Tormod gets sealed. This higher level slightly improves staff range, durability, and offense. - Staffbot Tormod's only advantage is movement, which is almost completely negated by the other Mages and Rhys using Physic. (I guess he also has C Fire by default, but it isn't unrealistic for Soren to have C Wind and Ilyana C Thunder in time for siege tomes.) Why? From Chapter 11 and beyond, sealed Soren and Ilyana are at least as good as Rhys. Mist can be better, but she needs more resources to get there. You mad. If you blaze through Chapters 11-24, you still have 80 turns. With some modest Physic/Restore/Ward use, gaining 9 levels in that time is trivial, even if there is no staff target some of the turns. Not to mention, your staff bots can engage in combat on occasion if there is no need for their staves. Your Sages can advance 12 spaces on their own in 2 turns; it can definitely be done. Then you're stuck with an inferior healer in Chapters 11-15. Un-promoted Mist has 1 less mov, paper durability, no offense, and insufficient Magic to heal serious injuries. Also, Mist needs C Staves to use Ward, which is unlikely before Chapter 16. Torch is a possibility, however. Hmm, Rhys does get a pretty snazy Magic promotion bonus. But Soren/Ilyana can hit weaknesses and double more often (especially Soren). Soren also has Adept to get more ORKOs. Forges are also a more realistic (cheaper) choice for the Sages. Soren, in particular, soundly beats Rhys in offense with a Thunder forge. I can actually agree with staffbot Rhys > staffbot Ilyana. I've outlined the advantages of staffbot Soren/Ilyana over staffbot Tormod above. As for the second, more complicated comparison, I would like to post my thoughts later this evening in the tier list topic (I'm hoping all of these posts get moved). (Edit: Or... this morning.)

I've done no such thing. The way I see it, Soren and Ilyana can be used in two ways. The first is to get them the level ten, feed them a Master Seal, and let them primarily be a staffbot like Rhys. This requires minimal resources (the Master Seals are not in high demand and they don't need much Bexp or kill favoritism to reach level 10 before Chapter 11). The second involves feeding them about as much Bexp as you would feed Tormod, only a little less, and a little sooner, and use them primarily as attackers/siegers, with some staff utility on the side. Tormod also has both of these options, but staffbot Tormod is very underwhelming compared with staffbot Soren/Ilyana/Rhys, entirely due to availability. Okay... so you need a Restore staff user. Rhys or Mist qualify, but so do Soren and Ilyana. Tormod does not. Let me repeat myself: when discussing staffbot Soren/Ilyana, the intent is to use them as your sole staff user. In this response, Soren/Ilyana gain only 9 levels in 17 chapters of staff use, Spirit Dusts don't exist, Sages can't climb the mountain trail to get closer to the top, and Anouleth never wants to heal units on the other side of the mountain (who will get injured, due to set-damage rocks). So, a difference of 5 levels worth of Bexp (445 to be exact) is not significant? Interesting. - Soren/Ilyana can reach B Staves. They miss out on Fortify and the Ashera Staff, so that's a minor endgame con. - I've already mentioned that Rhys has a small window of time where Physics are available, he can use them, and staffbot Soren/Ilyana cannot. That counts for something, but not much. - But Soren/Ilyana have better durability and offense than Rhys (and more advantages if you don't seal Rhys for some reason). <sarcasm>You're right, we shouldn't analyze the costs and benefits of Bexp for the Mages, all we need to do is trust in the divine, self-evident knowledge that Tormod is worth the Bexp and Soren and Ilyana aren't.</sarcasm> I can't say that I'm impressed with that 1-phrase argument; I was expecting something more. Eh, I'll do it myself in the tier list topic this evening. I haven't made a single assumption. I would like to analyze the costs and benefits of Bexping all three Mages. If this were truely an optimal deployment tier list, we wouldn't be considering training Soren, Ilyana, or Tormod. We are, so it is not. BTW, such a "tier list" would be pretty uninfomative: more than half of the cast aren't worth deploying in PoR assuming optimal deployment. You made either a factual mistake or a disingenuous comparison. I pointed that out (apparently in a non-obvious manner). See my revious reply here.

- Marcia takes at least as many resources as Soren and Ilyana to start ORKOing. I thought it was obvious. If we have enough Bexp to make Marcia and Boyd ORKO everything, we have enough Bexp to make Soren and Boyd ORKO everything. It was a simple factual clarification, I am amazed how it could be misunderstood to imply that I believe that Soren should be given as much Bexp as Marcia.

Unless I've been misunderstanding you, you've been assuming the 'if clause' here, that giving Soren Bexp results in a negative net impact. That was your argument, no? I'm not assuming it at all. I presented three scenarios to you, which you ignored. I suggested that we analyze all three (preferably in the tier list topic). Making assumptions about unit deployment and resource use limits the scope of the discussion. I prefer not to do that. Your preferences may differ. No. I made a factual statement: that Marcia takes at least as many resources as Soren or Ilyana to start ORKOing. Any conclusions you draw from that observation are your own.

There are several instances where Cexp is free, and others where Soren and Ilyana can actually contribute, but I'll save the analysis for the tier list topic. But Sexp is free, and Soren and Ilyana can early seal to get it before Tormod. Ignoring the exaggeration, why is this relevant? Tormod without Bexp is at least as hopeless, so let's compare relevant scenarios. Restore is pretty crucial in Chapter 21: it has 3 Sleep Bishops. Physic is pretty crucial in Chapter 25, especially if you send units up to the top early. Soren and Ilyana are better staffbots than Rhys, if you early-seal them, and they're much better staff-bots than unpromoted Mist. Promoting Mist in a reasonable timeframe takes more resources than early-seal Soren and Ilyana. Well, he assumed his conclusion: that Soren is a poor Bexp candidate. Demonstrating that as a conclusion would involve analyzing Soren's performance with and without Bexp, which I haven't seen. If I ignore that you're assuming your conclusion again, I'd like to ask the relevant question: what makes Tormod's situation any different, if different they are? Tormod has even more competition for Bexp, considering that Jill, Astrid, and Makalov all joined recently. If neither makes positive use of the Bexp, how is Tormod better than Soren with no Bexp? - Marcia takes at least as many resources as Soren and Ilyana to start ORKOing. - Assuming we're using Marcia and Boyd makes assumptions. I don't know where you got this from.

Maybe dondon should talk about that, instead of Soren's bad start? Maybe I'm not as effective at communicating as I thought. Let me be as direct as possible: Soren's poor start is irrelevant as to whether or not he's worth a Bexp dump. What is relevant is how much he benefits from the Bexp and how costly/valuable the Bexp is.