HeoandReo

He could sub in Ricken for Panne to free up Stahl for Severa. It sounds weird, but it's basically Stahl!Yarne that lets you put Stahl elsewhere if you need to and the only other kid who would really like to have him would be Owain,(maybe Inigo/Severa too) and I see he already has plans for that. Doing that can let you do a shuffle of Vaike to Cherche and Henry to Sumia if he wanted, (and I guess Fred/Panne if Ricken's low strength is a dealbreaker) though I don't know if he specifically wants Cynthia to have Pavise/Aegis. Kind of tempted to say that it's a waste there since she already has Luna and Fred kills her speed, but it's still pretty good.

I tend to prefer Lon'qu!Laurent!Morgan over Ricken!Laurent!Morgan mostly because 3 more skill and speed is quite a bit more significant to him than 2 more magic, and Sorcerer becomes a lot more viable for him since the class suffers otherwise from its low speed cap.

Brady's one of those kids along with Cynthia and Inigo who you could give even a garbage or leftover dad like Virion and he'll still turn out fine, so I'd put him as lower priority than Gerome and Laurent. For Gregor!Gerome vs. Gregor!Brady, both like Vantage and Axefaire, although Gerome already has Hero so he doesn't really care too much about Mercenary. I'd probably say that Gerome would prefer Stahl over Gregor if he's doing frontining or backlining, but it depends on who else is around. (Well, that and everybody wants Stahl so it's no guarantee) As for Lon'qu!Brady vs. Lon'qu!Laurent, while I personally prefer the latter, I have to admit that Brady probably makes better use of Lon'qu overall. Laurent only really wants Vantage and speed. The rest is gravy and can work well with a support set since he already starts with Barbarian and Hex/Anathema and is likely to inherit Dual Support. As for Brady, he likes Deliverer/Movement+1 for Galeforce offense and gets a whole horde of support options to work with in addition to what he has. (Galeforce, Aggressor, Dual Guard)

A few days before Maribelle. Which is pretty cool, I guess.

Stahl's actually a Chrom (and arguably Ricken) replacement for Inigo, of all things, since both pass the exact same class set, Cavalier and Archer as well as decent physical modifiers. Fred gives Knight for Pavise to work with his natural AT/Sol/etc. while Ricken gives what Stahl and Chrom do, but also Sage so he can Celica's Gale some fools. I think it's actually one of the best uses of Ricken along with Owain and Yarne, if I might say so myself. The way that I see it, it's Ricken and Kellam that are usually the replacements of Stahl and Fred respectively, because all Great Knight fathers are the same although there are a few kids that can take fuller advantage of what the replacements offer, Inigo being one of them.

I think the changes would be a lot more significant than that. Giving Donnel Cav over Fighter pretty much turns him from one of the worst fathers in the game into one of the best. Cavalier and Knight are two of the most powerful classes you can get because Great Knight inheritance is so broken it's not even funny. Just to see what each kid gets if Donnel got Cav instead... Severa/Inigo: Gets nothing but Luna, but even so Luna's all that Inigo really needs and it's one of the things that Severa really wants along with Myrmidon. Aegis is a bonus. Gerome: Suddenly Donnel!Gerome is upgraded from joke character to arguably better as a physical support than Ricken!Gerome, and he now gets Aegis to deal with his flying weakness. Stahl/Fred/Kellam would still be better, but hey, Donnel's viable now. Brady: No significant changes, but hey. Brady already gets everything he needs. Owain: Still gets Vantage/Armsthrift/Sol, but also Luna which he really wants since he has Galeforce. Also makes up for the lower strength should he decide to go physical. Yarne: Still good as a throwaway with Paladin/Dual Guard/whatever, but can still be a decent frontliner with AT/Sol and Hero access. A nice hybrid of frontlining and backlining Yarnes. Laurent: Armsthrift/Sol is alright for a Sorcerer, but now he gets Armsthrift/Luna and Aegis to reduce magic damage. Noire: Trades Troubadour for Aegis, which might be nice to become a more tanky Sorcerer with since she starts with getting Pavise. Nah: Also trades Troubadour for Cav, which is a winning trade all around. Galeforce/Luna, Dual Guard and Aegis for defensive purposes, etc.

Libra!Brady isn't the best you can get, but it's good enough for his purposes. Just dark magic access in general is a better haul than say, what Ricken or Chrom give him. Between him and Virion, I'd go Libra in case you need to have another Mire abuser or something like that. As for other kids who make good use of him, Inigo likes him for Sorcerer access, since he gets Vantage and Armsthrift right off the bat. Along with other fun things like Sol, Astra and Galeforce. Kjelle, of all people, surprisingly makes pretty good use of him too. It's not as crazy as it sounds. She starts with Pavise/Aegis, Luna, and Vantage right off the bat, so she can become a pretty reliable Sorcerer tank. Gets things like Miracle and Tomefaire to work with, too.

Mostly because Noire has other parents who tend to be more common and arguably more useful, namely Donnel and Gaius. Gregor's easily her best non-Galeforce parent, though. As for comparison, Gregor!Noire is Gregor!Laurent but better, since in addition to Dark Mage, she also has Knight for Pavise/Luna/Dual Guard. Only downside is no Galeforce and it kinda screws other kids over who might want him like Laurent/Yarne/Gerome. You could make an argument that Noire's just as wanting as any of those three, though. She gets some pretty solid modifiers that make her good for a mixed unit, since Tharja's mods are boss and Gregor doesn't hurt them too much. (3 str/mag, 2 skl/spd, 3 def, only really bad stat is -3 luck but whocares, it's a dump stat)

Fair enough. Stahl!Severa and Vaike!Severa are similar quite in a few ways, both having Great Knight & Assassin access, both get a relevant faire and both get some pretty crazy physical modifiers. The only downside I can think of is again, the lack of Vantage, but she'll probably be fine without it if she's going the Galeforce offensive route. Between Ricken and Stahl for Gerome though,(forgot Ricken was free there) I'd go Stahl if you're specifically using him as a bow knight support. Both get Cavalier + Archer, but Gerome also wants Vantage and maybe Swordfaire and Assassin. I actually prefer using Stahl!Gerome as a bulky frontliner with Vantage/Sol and Aegis, but he does support exceptionally like, well, pretty much any Stahl kid.

I might suggest Sumia for that, actually. Her speed is fast enough to avoid getting doubled by things, which is good defensively. Sully works too like what Meteor said, but it kinda screws Lucina/Kjelle over compared to their other dads so I'm not really sure about that. Haven't played Lunatic though, so I'm not really sure. If you're not using Nah, yeah I'd agree that Kellam would be the best of what we have left. But if you still wanted to do Vaike!Nah, you could do a shuffle of Stahl -> Severa and Kellam -> Gerome. Severa loses Axefaire but gains Vantage/Swordfaire/Assassin/Archer, while the drop from Stahl to Kellam for Gerome is basically Pavise instead of Aegis, no Bowbreaker/Bowfaire, and running Assassin as a potential physical support instead of Paladin. Could also further shuffle that with Frederick -> Gerome and Kellam -> Yarne, but it depends on what you're looking for. Looks good to me. Only thing I might be a little iffy on would be Gregor for Brady if he's going Sage instead of War Monk, but if you don't need him elsewhere it should work out. Kind of tempted to move Gaius to Tharja since Noire gets Galeforce in addition to all the good stuff she gets from the Myrmidon tree, but it would be a bit of a domino effect and might mess some of your other pairings up, so I'll leave it alone for now.

Vaike!Brady's pretty good. Most of Vaike's sons are basically slightly worse versions of Henry's sons, but Brady still gets what he wants out of him. (Barbarian access) For Nah, she doesn't really have good selection out of who's left, although Fred's probably the best thanks to Pavise/Aegis access. For pairing Nah, I usually give her to someone like Assassin!Yarne to boost up her speed. You could also do a shuffle of Frederick!Yarne and Kellam!Nah if you wanted, though. Yarne gets Aegis and Wyvern, while Nah trades Aegis for Cleric + Thief. Could be useful depending on what you want to do. As for Inigo, Chrom!Inigo is arguably one of the best ones you can get, thanks mostly to Galeforce + Great Knight, but also because he gets more speed out of the deal. He can run something like Galeforce/Luna/Limit Break/fillers and he'll do fine regardless of class.

Henry!Gerome is Vaike!Gerome with Dark Mage, so he's basically a physical beater who can run Hex/Anathema for critical support. Don't think it's the best Gerome myself, but it's one of the better ones. Personally I wouldn't swap them since I'd say that Henry benefits Cynthia just as much, but it depends on what you're looking for.

Yeah, I know that he has Tomefaire and all that. Ricken!Gerome is mostly for magical modifiers along with all the other cool stuff Stahl gives him, rather than just a magic focus. I think the best magic support that males can get would actually be Trickster,(2 mag, 1 skl, 3 spd, 1 mov) but only Kellam gives him that and Dual Guard at the same time. It would give guys like Gaius/Lon'qu an extra niche, though.

If you really want Dual Guard along with that, I'd actually recommend Stahl out of those four Dual Guard fathers. Ties with Frederick for the highest attack out of them, and he also gives Swordfaire/Bowfaire to work in a variety of support classes. (Paladin, Assassin, Warrior) Alternatively, I guess you could also do Ricken!Gerome if you're doing magic support too. It's Stahl!Gerome minus Swordfaire/Assassin and with higher magic mods, though as Skarthe said it really depends on what you're doing with him.

I'd say the same thing. I've had both Pavise/Aegis units and Vantage units be able to solo maps and get killed by certain things depending on how things have gone. Enemies with things like Luna/Luna+ and Vengeance can blast through the former, while things like Brave weapons, Vantage+ and Longbows can go through the latter entirely if you're unlucky. I personally find Vantage better, but I think it's a matter of preference and situation. I find that they function better on certain types of maps more than others, which is why I'm hesitant about bringing Apotheosis into this. I find that they tend to work better on maps with heavy enemy density, like Priam's paralogue or Rogues and Redeemers. Apotheosis, I'm not sure if it's quite the same situation, and even then there's enemies that can go through the former, at least.

Well, the time when I saw it and when it was posted was back in mid-to-late April, but I think it still makes quite a bit of sense and is pretty interesting to read even if it's not quite up to where min-maxing is currently. It's from Nakar, (of Ultima LP fame) and the context is that he's using a female Avatar for a third generation Morgan, so a kid has to be screwed out of Galeforce. It's basically trying to figure out the Vaike Triangle before it was even given a name, so here's the post. --- Nakar: Basically my current analysis is that one of Vaike/Donnel/Gaius goes to Tharja/Sully/Nowi, and it's a pretty reasonable conclusion: * Two of the fathers pass Armsthrift (Vaike, Donnel). Two pass Galeforce (Gaius, Donnel). All pass Sol, but Gaius must pass Sol; Donnel and Vaike can pass Counter or Rally Strength, Vaike can pass Wrath and Axefaire, and the child can still go Hero for Sol. * Two fathers pass Thief (Vaike, Gaius). Thief isn't that useful but Locktouch, Movement+1, Lucky Seven, and Acrobat are all decent. Acrobat is actually good for a General, which Kjelle and/or Vaike's daughter can do. * All three girls presumably want Galeforce, but only two will get it because Vaike doesn't pass Pegasus Knight. * Two of the three girls desire Armsthrift (Kjelle, Noire). Nah can roll as a Manakete with Dragonstone+ which is infinitely purchaseable, quite strong, and doesn't need to be forged (nor can it be). * Other skills: Vaike passes Luna and Pavise, which Kjelle already has. Gaius passes Astra and Vantage, which Kjelle already has. * Nah has the worst SPD modifier. Gaius passes the best SPD modifier. * Kjelle is faster and has better SKL as a Hero than Nah, and is more likely to want and need Axefaire/Armsthrift/Helswath than Nah, who has Manakete. As a Hero Kjelle also has no weaknesses; Nah always has a Dragon weakness. * Noire has the best MAG modifier and will probably be a Dark Flier support unit since she lacks Aggressor or Tomefaire. Therefore, she benefits most from the Troubadour tree, and is hurt the least by Donnel's middling SPD (Vaike and Gaius both pass excellent SPD modifiers) since SPD does not matter in Pair Up. * Noire is the only one of the three who can be a Sorcerer, and thus benefits the most from Armsthrift because Aversa's Night basically requires Armsthrift. It would also mitigate Tomefaire's loss (because Tomefaire would often get bumped for Armsthrift/Limit Breaker anyway). Kjelle benefits second-most due to Helswath/Brave Axe, but both of those are easily bought or farmed. * Noire is either blonde or a ginger with Vaike or Gaius as a father; Donnel gives her blackish-purple hair. Obviously this makes much more sense! Kind of a tough call, but my thought now is Sully x Vaike, Nowi x Gaius, and Tharja x Donnel. --- A lot of my thoughts kind of echo his, though I'd usually prefer Noire not just being a Dark Flier. Great Knight access is quite a bit more important now though, so I'm thinking that it could affect some of the theory of this.

Paladin works. It's what I usually make her. Can fight well with Galeforce/Luna, mobility and weapon selection, and can tank well with Pavise/Aegis/Sol, balanced defensive stats and Ragnell/Gradivus. Have to change the skillset depending on what you want to do, but it's not a huge issue if you plan ahead. I sometimes make her a Dark Flier but only if I need her to support a Sage or Sorcerer, which is surprisingly more often than you might think. Donnel!Kjelle's still pretty good as a tanking General, and she can still hit 66 speed if for whatever reason you're using Generals on Apotheosis. (Don't do this, by the way. Generals suck on that map.) The only time when she doesn't is if she's running a pair up that doesn't give at least a 2 speed bonus in which case she really has no business being a General regardless of father. If you're doing Vaike!Kjelle, though, she's better off as a Hero imo. Those stats are crazy. For the most part, though, I usually advise Vaike!Kjelle in a situation where Male Avatar is absent or elsewhere and only 2/3 Galeforce-less girls can get it. I saw a pretty good argument a while ago for Vaike!Kjelle that went along those lines, (not on Gamefaqs, but SomethingAwful, so there's none of that skirmisher or bringing Generals to Apotheosis or "mods are ****" or any of that crap) so if you're interested, I could repost it.

I'd run Sol if tanking, Astra if not. And I'd probably also stick Vantage in there. If I had to drop a skill though, it would be Swordbreaker. I barely even remember the last time I had a Manakete get hit by a Wyrmslayer, and those are so rare anyway that I don't really think it's worth it.

70, which means that the main benchmarks to get around it are 75 to double and 66 to avoid getting doubled, and it's actually not too hard to hit the latter. I think the only character I know of offhand who can't hit 66 is Kellam!Nah!Morgan with a -Speed Avatar father as a Manakete or a General. (Even then she could reclass to Assassin or something so she still might be okay) And from what I've seen, proper pairings are important but not overly so. The main difference between an 'optimized' party and a non-optimized one is that you'll break things like Apotheosis in half rather than just be able to beat it. As long as you have the right selection of classes you'll do fine.

Just taking a look at some of the other ratings, I'm tempted to make a case for Buizel going up a bit, mostly because the lack of STAB is made up for a bit for having a lot of coverage that hits super-effective on lots of things. Crunch comes right on time for Fantina, and Brick Break/Dig hits Lucario and Byron hard. Pretty much nothing resists the Dark/Fighting combo, and even without STAB coming off of 105 attack is pretty good. The only other coverage option Shellos really has over that is Rock, and even then Ice arguably obsoletes it. Only thing is that it's a bit of an opportunity cost to give him all those TMs, so I understand if that's the case. Both can hit pretty hard on both physical and special sides of the spectrum, so it's basically bulk vs. speed.

For the most part I meant that they're bad for Inigo class-wise, but yeah Inigo's pretty hard to screw up intentionally. Demise/DB covered Cynthia and Brady, who are probably the most expendable parent-wise since they already start with everything they need to be good offensive casters and supporters. (Galeforce + Great Knight, pretty much. Tomefaire is gravy.) Even a hypothetical Virion!Cynthia would still turn out amazing because of that.

Don't forget Kellam and Virion. Kellam gives him Great Knight for Luna/Dual Guard/Pavise along with Sage access while Virion gives him speed, breakers and faires. I know people don't like Virion!Inigo as much but I think he's still pretty cool. I'd say that the only dads that are definitively awful for Inigo would be Gregor and Donnel. Gaius and Vaike are probably second-worst imo, but Inigo still likes the mods and can sort of make use of Thief's Trickster as a magic support.

I don't think Dawn Stones are really easy to find in Platinum, though. I'm pretty sure the first one comes around Pastoria City, which is quite a while to go to. He can probably gain some levels against Maylene thanks to type advantage, and Ralts' midgame is a little stronger thanks to higher special attack. Both can run something like Zen Headbutt/fighting STAB/other stuff for a good chunk of the game IIRC.

Ricken!Inigo is hilariously good. Does everything that Chrom!Inigo does except he can do stuff as a Sage, too. It's pretty amazing how many awesome Inigo pairings there are that nobody notices.

I'd actually argue that speed is kind of useless too, since while 75 speed is good for characters to hit, 66 is probably the more important number since it ensures that you'll never be doubled, ever. (And the only things that hit 70 speed IIRC are Anna and 2-3 boss Snipers in Apotheosis so as long as you have at least 1-2 units who can hit that you're in the clear.) Kellam!Nah can actually hit that as a General, granted you have to stack on the highest boosts possible. (Cap is 32, 42 from LB, 44 from tonic, 46 from AS+2, 56 from rallies, 66 from Swordmaster pair up) It's impractical, yes, but it is possible, and from that it's very doable with any unit with even a slightly higher speed cap. I'd argue that the main function of speed is to make your unit more flexible with pair up buddies, since 2 speed might mean you can run a Paladin over an Assassin for example. --- To get back on topic, Sumia!Lucina is probably my favourite Lucina overall, because she gets a lot of neat things to play with. Pavise/Aegis/RK/Aether to tank, Galeforce/Luna and/or Aether as offense, access to Sage to do magic (and a good magic cap to work with) and she still gets a relevant ingame faire with Lancefaire as a Great Lord. It's just that I usually do Olivia!Lucina because in my eyes it benefits Inigo and Cynthia a little more and makes them more suited to what I'm looking for in them, kind of like a little system of checks and balances. That and I like Chrom/Olivia as a pairing better than Chrom/Sumia. If I'm doing no-grind though it's Sumia!Lucina all the way.