samthedigital

If you're looking specifically for a speedrun: just note that it uses glitches and speedruns don't necessarily take turn counts into consideration even though there is some correlation between the two.

Yeah, playing the map "legitimately" is painful as is the case with most paralogues in my experience. My method of choice is using Astra Storm to bait him to run across the map while I sit at the start ignoring the ballista gimmick entirely (using rescue to get the items I want; don't have to go past the start really). It's not as good in terms of turn count as warping, but you don't need Micaiah for it, so Panette goes online sooner.

Ike!Panette, Warrior; finish the Ike paralogue once you have access to Byleth (that's when it becomes pretty easy to cheese) and Leif paralogue cheese once you have access to that. Vantage+ and Hit+20 or Canter depending on the situation and she becomes an EP machine even on Maddening with a Lyn forged Killer Axe and a crit forged killer bow depending on the situation. You might be able to get away with wyvern too depending; I haven't tried that yet.

She really wants the early game stat boosters to snowball and stay relevant later on. If you're not giving those to her you'll want some skills and a good emblem to help patch up her offense. Something like Roy, a crit build, etc would help if you want to keep her as a flyer. You could also choose to build towards a Martial Master instead if she's falling off because it doesn't require good stats, and her mixed offensive growths help her in the role somewhat also.

There's enough money to budget chest keys in there unless you're not sure what to buy and overkill on items; the argument that there are better things to buy with your money doesn't work if there's a surplus. You're free to disagree, but your experience might be different depending on how you play the game too. If you're not taking advantage of warp especially you might need the money given the additional enemies you're killing besides the fact that there's no time to get them when warp skipping anyway. I don't find it to be much of a problem though; as above it's only important if there's something to do with that money, and it's why I mentioned the post-game.

If I was going to point out every single detail I'd be here for ages; it doesn't change the fact that thieves are largely irrelevant for chest opening duties after the fact and my placement of FE7 thieves takes everything that they do into account.

That's probably the case with most chapters in Engage; you're likely going to have problems if your damage output isn't good enough. I don't know how that chapter plays out normally anymore though; I just lure Micaiah out with Entrap (Astra Storm might work too; I forget) and finish it from there rather than having to slog through it.

This is probably what is closest to my line of thinking. Lyn with a covert unit is really good situationally, but even then drawing aggro might be what's important rather than killing the enemy specifically, so damage doesn't always matter. If I don't have a specific use case for Astra Storm I'd rather give Lyn to a unit that can take better advantage of the stat buffs; Thieves have poor bases and Snipers are bow locked.

The ones that we can buy in the Dragon's Gate secret shop are the ones I was referring to. I just buy enough of them for what I need and don't use thieves from that point onwards to open chests. Sacred Stones just doesn't have many useful items in chests. One or two chest keys are probably enough for most maps (if you know item locations) unless you're doing post-game stuff and want to buy stat boosters (then the money is more useful), and that way we can use a unit with good combat. At worst it's a convoy trip, but it's better than lugging a unit with less move along that isn't essential to the map's completion.

If I'm being honest that and desert treasures escaped me when I wrote that; it's something that was a lot more important the first time I played compared to the countless replays where I have a better idea of where everything is. I don't think I mentioned desert items either which is potentially useful depending on the playthrough. I RNG abuse for that in the GBA games (and use Volke to get the boots in FE9, but I forgot to list FE9, and they aren't that useful in that game otherwise), but it might not always be applicable.

I don't really agree that either unit is better than Kagetsu, but it's something that we've talked about, and I don't think that there's any other productive ways of going about that discussion. I think that wee concluded earlier that it's ultimately a matter of how good they're going to get and how much they contribute before Kagetsu arrives which will vary depending on playstyle.

Chloe doesn't have to be the most useful unit or save turns in an efficiency context. If she has a positive contribution that automatically puts her over any unit that doesn't exist yet until their utility can outweigh hers. It's the argument you'd make for Lapis over Kagetsu, and it should apply for Chloe also. It's not so much about ranking similarly so much as how much credit we're giving to the units when they exist and other units don't. Seadall obviously gets a lot of credit for being a dancer when he's the only one whereas on the other extreme end Clanne wouldn't be given a lot of credit for being able to chip enemies or to use Great Sacrifice. It ties to the point above; you have to give Chloe some amount of credit for her contributions before Lapis exists. How much we're giving her exactly will vary I guess, but it would be disingenuous to give her none.

I'd potentially bump it up a tier then.

There are plenty of other classes that can also double without having the problems that I listed. Wolf Knight is better in just about every way outside of the covert tag and has the same base speed (not 100% sure on that at the moment, but it should be close) for a direct class comparison.

There isn't any strong competition for the second hero crest other than just selling it, and Gonzales is an example of a unit that actually appreciates the levels before promoting. He might not see play during a completely optimized run, but that's also true of a lot of otherwise good units too.

Here are my rankings (relative to how necessary they feel to their respective games): Top: Radiant Dawn, Thracia I'm not considering Lara's promotion; I feel that Thracia would top the tier lists if we did include it though. I feel that these are somewhat similar in that the units are invaluable for a period of time before dropping off completely. Perne has the combat to extend their life cycle in Thracia, but I don't find that it's enough to justify a tier difference. Sothe is the best combat unit for a short period of time whereas Lifis and Lara can steal random things while making Manster much more manageable by being capture bots. High: Binding Blade, Blazing Blade I would definitely choose Binding Blade over Blazing blades simply because thieves are relevant for longer and the value of gold is quantifiable. Generally speaking I find that thieves fall off after we get chest keys in FE7 outside of the random steal. It's similar in FE6, but random gems and the like are that much more important to steal in the game. FE7 is still here because of the promotion items that we can steal on top of the chests earlier on in the game. The silver card and such are decent enough too. Mid: Genealogy If I was including ranked runs this would be higher. As is transferring money between units is useful, but the better units don't really have problems with money in my experience anyway.. I don't know this game that well though, so maybe there is more use than I give them credit for. Low: SS, Engage There isn't really anything terribly useful to steal in Sacred Stones. Maybe I'd bump them up a tier if I could remember anything that Thieves get that's good early, but it's been too long since I've played. I'm not sure if Engage is a controversial choice or not, but Thieves are actually not so good in my opinion. Covert is only situationally useful, and they have 5 move, are dagger locked, the class base stats are bad, and anyone who starts as a Thief has to wait until level 21 to change into something else.

The thing is that we can't give her a lot of credit when a lot of other units can do the same thing. She might be a good long term investment, but that doesn't mean she's helping out a lot more now relative to other units. I wasn't so much going for turn counts rather than general utility. If Chloe=Lapis when they are both around and Chloe>Lapis when Lapis doesn't exist (and it doesn't take much, Etie is better than Lapis because she can kill fliers for example because Lapis doesn't exist... don't take this as a general argument for Etie though; just until Lapis joins) then Chloe>Lapis.

Difficulty is fairly subjective, but the point is that fielding Lyn actively makes your roster worse whereas the same can't be said for Bartre. FE7 is a game where it's hard to get a unit as good as Raven to promotion because of deployment slots much less one of the worst units in the game. The same can't be said in FE6; we often "waste" a slot on Fae who does nothing except absorb status staves; fielding Bartre is no problem when there are 10 available slots to get things done. edit: If you really want to make the game a cakewalk you don't invest in Matthew or Lyn. You want to pump as much experience in Kent/Sain and Florina as possible. The other thing is that for an experienced player LHM is kind of a waste of time; it makes the game easier, but chapters can still be cleared reliably without it. You can think of it as an opportunity cost scenario if you like. If you personally want a better weapon (of a weapon type that you claim is garbage, but...) that's fine, but if we manage our resources effectively it's not necessary. The game gives us one in a chest. If you want to argue that maybe one extra killer axe (any more and we're getting close to stat booster territory especially considering our budge for better weapons) is worth ditching Bartre sure, but I don't find this to be a compelling argument when we're comparing it to using bad characters.

That's effectively what Lapis is doing too until chapter 12/13. edit: I'm going on vacation for a week and I won't be looking at this while I'm gone (you can probably find me on discord if you care; I'm not that difficult to find there), so a few more things to outline before I go. 1. A lot of units can help kill bosses in the warp skip chapters from 8-10. The only reason we'd prefer one over the other early on is for future investment. 2. Units should get credit for any positive thing they can do as long as it's not a detriment to the team. This means that Chloe killing enemies is for her benefit, but it also helps with chapter clears. It also means that she is better than a unit who doesn't exist yet in the same way that Lapis is over Kagetsu for a few chapters. ColonelM outlined a few things that Chloe does in the context of his playthrough, so I won't go further into it. 3. That's also the case for Lapis (it's an argument a lot of people would make for Chloe>Lapis), but Kagetsu is basically a fully fed Lapis/Chloe that we get for free.

To be sure I don't see the reason to have a dedicated tank either, but I think that the difference might be in our playstyles and character selection. I make liberal use of the engage mechanic to maximize EP output. Draconic Hex can be useful on occasion, but even that wasn't consistently useful by my second Maddening playthrough. Ike and Bonded Shield (not combined together mind) in particular are what I use, but there are a handful of units that don't need either of those to be effective. Also this; chapter 17 and pact ring paralogue are the only chapters that come to mind that I can't cheese where there there's a possibility of threatening enemies being left alive on EP. In any case I'll refrain from adding more on this so as to not derail your topic too much more.

Deployment slots are not really that much of an issue for them. FE6 is generous with that even on hard mode. Axes are something of a problem when not fighting lance users, but the bigger issue would be Garret's speed and Gonzales being crap before he promotes and then being too heavy to pick up once he does.

Earlier on I would probably prefer to have a sage because there aren't that many staff users to go around. Once Hortensia and Ivy come around though I don't see the need to have more staff users, and Mage Knight is by far the better offensive option. I might be using a Martial Master and/or a Griffin Knight, Micaiah exists, etc. In short I guess that it depends on team composition, but I'm more likely to have staves covered by other units. Skill choices are a thing too; it's easier to stick DP+ on a support character, and I want my magic unit to primarily be dealing damage and attacking. You've already addressed all of the other things that I'd have to say about Sage; a lot of the benefits you mentioned are minor at best. This is something I don't necessarily agree with though. I find that Obstruct is useful situationally, but generally speaking I want to be performing actions that maximize my offensive output. That means attacking on player phase or setting up situations where I can deal as much damage as possible on enemy phase. Obstruct can work to block an enemy so I can set up instances where I'm dealing with one less enemy when I otherwise wouldn't be able to send my unit in safely, but more often it's just not doing much for me.

I have not played with the DLC stuff, but Panette reaches guaranteed hit+crit with the vantage+wrath setup; not sure if Jean does that.

The pact ring paralogue is far more difficult than chapter 24 in my opinion. Your entrap idea is how I've tackled the chapter every time I've played after my first run. You can safely ignore a lot of the enemies and the second half of the map that way while still getting all of the items if that's what you want. I honestly don't remember if any of it is good though, so you could even warp cheese in a few turns if you like too; you could do that for the rest of the game =P. If you're having troubles surviving you can swap Lucina to Chloe so that you have a 100% bonded shield for any unit to tank and kill units on enemy phase. I like having Panette!Ike with Vantage so that I have even more EP options too.

It's not necessarily about carrying so much as doing work that Lapis can't do because she doesn't exist yet, and she's more useful relatively speaking because there aren't as many units. During the warp chapters anyone can use warp, and there are multiple setups to kill bosses where neither unit is required, so their contributions aren't as valuable. Chapter 11 is much the same without warp. Chapter 13 is the only one where they're going to hard carry the run where Kagetsu doesn't have wings, and then I'm not sure on the reliability. edit: naming error