samthedigital

I don't want to get too off topic, but Franz can hurt Seth and some of the other units in the long term. Imagine you give Franz a kill on a boss instead of Seth. Seth then has less chances of gaining stats that will help him survive and carry later on in the game. I am not that well versed in Sacred Stones, but if people say that he's not worth it that's what they would have determined. To be brief I think that S tier should be reserved for the units who have combat that eclipses every other unit or who have incredible utility. If you don't factor in join time or whatever Panette and Seadall come to mind since Panette is pretty much the most consistent EP unit in the game regardless of investment as long as she has Ike, and Seadall is a dancer. A tier would be reserved for units that can snowball really early or who have good if not exceptional utility. Lapis would fall just short of that because it takes can be more difficult for her to inherit things like Canter and the like.

It depends on the context. In an LTC context she's a lower tier unit. In an "efficiency"* context she might bump up a tier, but I'm not sure; she still has the experience problems that I've mentioned and won't really have the time to be a carry. In a context where you're killing every single enemy on the map and complete most side objectives and the like I would bring her up to a B tier or something like that. She can contribute in the way you've described throughout the topic in this context, but there are some other combat and utility units that are better (and I'm not talking about Chloe here), and units tend to stand out less since they can all get fed exp far more easily. Efficiency is kind of a vague term, and I'm not sure I like it much, but it is generally closer to LTC while focusing more on making the clears reliable. If there's a disconnect between your view of where Lapis should be in a tier list and where people place her it's because they are not evaluating units the way you are. In an LTC context he's nearly redundant from what I remember. In an efficiency context he's one of three cavaliers that can get to promotion and contribute a bit, but his role is not comparable to Seth's whatsoever. That's why some people would say that he's "not worth it".

Alear can use her full movement every turn and not die provided that someone baits the archer. Their stats should be relatively similar to Lapis, and they should be a flier. There is no reason for you to have Lapis in front in this map if you're trying to play quickly. In a quick clear a unit is going to one area and not going back and forth through the map.

If you're trying to clear that chapter quickly you should have Alear in front because she is closer to the objective and should have priority in max moving every turn. If you're trying to clear the chapter quickly you need to have units spread across the map else you spawn reinforcements and clear the map more slowly. I could go on, but I hope you get the point... In an LTC context she's much closer to her bases, and the more resources you dump into her the less that go into more important units.

I'm going to remove the Kagetsu comparison for now and really focus on exactly what I mean when talking about clearing maps quickly. If we want to cheese chapters then we've established that we don't really have the time to train Lapis in any meaningful way. That's what makes Chloe better in that context; you can snowball her when chapters can't be cheesed as easily and she has the time to grow. I guess it's also worth mentioning that Lapis has a personal that is actually harmful at times and unimpactful at best, but it's probably not that relevant. Suppose we don't cheese and take some more time to train Lapis and still clear maps relatively quickly. Lapis can go grab a Tomahawk in chapter 11 or divert some enemies from Alear so that they can get to the objective more safely. It would be difficult for her to get a lot of exp unless you slow down some, and you can't really give her any credit for that. In chapter 12 if she's sufficiently trained she can kill a handful of enemies to clear the map before reinforcements come, but that will also cut on her exp rather significantly, and you can extend that to the rest of the game. I could provide a few more examples, but the line blurs quickly when trying to determine what counts as cheese and what doesn't. I'm not sure exactly how much I like the term either because it's clearly intentional on some level.

Yes, this is the exact point I was making; she doesn't offer any unique utility at any point in the game. I wasn't necessarily saying that she was better or worse than Diamant. If you can offer me your character's levels and the other skill that she was using that might help, but if you're going for crits you have to accept that Lapis is not the only one that can reach high crit numbers to kill enemies consistently. Some units can reach a higher crit rate to do it more consistently even since you won't be getting the 90%-100% that you would with Wrath. I'm also not sure on the numbers for her chance of survival or chance to kill, etc, but my numbers would not be accurate given that I don't know exactly how much experience you've put into Lapis on each of your playthroughs. If you're really playing through the game quickly and Lapis is doing her job then she will probably be behind him at that point in the game, and Lapis is not uniquely able to clear up to that point easier and faster. They're not considered in the same ballpark specifically because you have to actually use Lapis quite a lot for her to be as good Kagetsu is, and her strength stat should basically never outpace his unless you use stat boosters on her.

Ike gives +6 attack on forced doubles, sometimes +1 per hit on things like Astra Storm and Marth's engage attack, +9 on effective weapons, and +3 on any random emblem attack that isn't hitting for effective damage. It's pretty good, but the use case is specific. The DLC probably adds too many of these kinds of engravings, but it's definitely strong depending on what it's being used for.

They can both reclass to the same classes, and it still takes an appreciable amount of time for her growths to make her really start to outpace him. As a level 20 Swordmaster (promoted at level 10) in chapter 20 she has 31 speed (33 with a tonic). To double she needs 39, and I feel that level 20 is a little generous if you're clearing maps quickly (which is something people factor in when making tier lists). She also needs at least 48? or so atk if she wants to kill without relying on a crit. With a level 10 Roy she reaches 37 speed and uh... 42ish? atk with a forged silver sword which will also weigh her down. With speedtaker she can start doubling them eventually, but not the ones at the start of the map. With Speed+4 she needs to use another weapon, and we would still need to get more attack with another skill even with the silver sword. Maybe you can offer a solution for me where she does indeed double them, kill them, and still reliably takes hits on enemy phase at this level, but even if that is the case then the benchmarks are still far higher than the benchmarks required for someone engaged with Ike using a Lyn engraved Killer weapon to one shot them with Vantage+. edit: Something to note is that Kagetsu can reach those benchmarks earlier.

They have a 1 point difference in speed at base, so unless she grows out of that extremely quickly then she isn't doubling enemies that he can't early on. If she is indeed doubling them throughout the game and is indeed at a reasonable level she needs a crit which probably necessitates Ike or Wrath for consistency, and literally any unit can one round swordmasters that way without the need for doubling. If that's the case if you aren't getting speed blessed you are not doubling and one rounding swordmasters without speedtaker especially since you've stated that other units are getting kills. I'm not sure if I see any point in further debate though; your statements just don't make sense to me unelss you're really just feeding her kills or playing on a lower difficulty.

If she's the best unit in the game at that point her stats should reflect that, right? Her bases are all worse than Diamant (outside of one point in speed in exchange for 4 in build) who joins one chapter later and has 300 more SP. Unless you're feeding her a lot of exp through her join chapter (where she isn't gaining any SP) she's going to have just about the exact same performance as him for several chapters until her speed is enough to let her double some enemies that he can't assuming that the build isn't a problem. By the point their stat differences might matter we're at a point where we get some strong units for free that will likely have better stats than any of the early game carries. Otherwise the disconnect might just come from how you're clearing maps exactly. If you're killing every single enemy on every map and feeding Lapis a bunch of kills I can see you being able to double swordmasters throughout the game, but otherwise it's not likely, and that seems slow to me. Not that it's necessary to double swordmasters to one round them mind. Louis isn't really a carry specifically because he's not that great at killing things later on in the game, but if you really want him to he can take advantage of a Lyn engrave and Ike to one round some swordmasters; it's just that other units can do it more effectively when these options are available. He's just one example though, and I'm only using it to show that Lapis is in no way unique in that regard.

A lot of the early investment units (including Chloe depending on investment) start to fall off when compared to units that we get in the mid-game; the only thing that really makes them stand out is Canter access, and Lapis doesn't have that much time to get the required SP. If your argument is that Lapis can be a good unit that's a perfectly reasonable one. It just gets shaky if you try to compare her to other units given that she's not exceptional at her join time; she's an investment unit at the end of the day. If you gave other units with a similar level of favoritism you'd probably find that their performance isn't all that different. If you've played through maddening three times and played the early game similarly each time there's not a whole lot to take away from it. The strategy you posted originally is only one of many that can lead to having a unit that juggernauts and has a strong enemy phase as long as you're creative with emblem use and such. I do have some reservations though because Lapis has to be fed a lot of kills for her to match units that aren't even that strong on enemy phase.

2. This is correct; your units will always have their average stats on the first playthrough. 4. I'm not sure that they're necessary exactly, but using some key ones will help for the more difficult chapters. You should probably cook every time you go back to the Somniel anyway; it doesn't take a lot of time, and it increases everyone's stats. Note that you can only get a set amount of stats from activity, so using both the temporary stat boosters and cooking can potentially be redundant.

No, it's not. The argument in favor of other units is generally that they're better without investment or that they join earlier and it is therefore either more efficient or more worthwhile to pump resources into them because it makes the earlier chapters easier while there is a nominal difference in performance in later chapters. To go back to an earlier point though; she exists in a game where even the worst unit can be effective and trained without all that much effort. To use another FE game as an example to train Nino it requires being careful and spending a lot of time to get a unit that is about as good as both a pre-promote and another growth unit that we have had at least a dozen chapters to train already. There's no comparison between Nino and a "bad" unit in Engage. If you give Panette Ike and Vantage she can one shot just about everything with her 100% accuracy and a 100% crit rate on enemy phase. Most magic users can fight on enemy phase with help from Bonded Shield. That's a little more limiting in terms of how many enemies can be in range, but the upside is that a single tome is more broadly useful than any single given physical weapon. Kagetsu is the easiest example to bring up because his base stats are competitive with a Lapis who has gained 15 levels or so. Otherwise there several units that are similar to her that will perform just as well given the same level of investment; it might take a little less effort to get them to 1k SP and the like though.

I would say that it does, at least somewhat. If we assume that chests are valuable and that an Assassin should get a lot of credit for being able to open them for whatever reason then I do think that a unit like Joshua would be better relative to other games. I'd prefer a faster way of getting to the chests with a mounted unit or whatever with warp, but I'll try not to go on too much of a tangent.

If you're looking for an easy time just use whatever looks strong (Corrin with a good build, Silas, royals, and Hinoka off the top of my head) until you get Ryoma. He can pretty much solo the game from there.

That doesn't really matter, does it?. If you want to get technical about it though his thieving utility would be relevant to the discussion (assuming it was worthwhile) if we're comparing myrmidons from across the series. I haven't looked at a growths LTC in a while, but I have seen efficiency runs where he does see some combat. Seth does a lot, but he can't do all of the less important tasks or route every single enemy; Joshua isn't completely worthless. If we're strictly talking about an experienced player then it's hard to imagine them running out of money unless they're doing some kind of challenge run. If not then there are often a lot of outs via the tower and creature campaign (and convoy if you're really struggling with weapons I guess). What most players do or what is human nature doesn't necessarily correlate with what is best. A lot of players hoard their stat boosters, fight every enemy on a map, etc, but that isn't optimal. People do tend to move away from this especially as they play through the game more. To bring this back to the topic's intended discussion though; are we ranking units based on what the casual player thinks is best or are we ranking units based on what is actually best? If it's the latter then his thieving utility doesn't matter.

If we're discussing Joshua's promotion paths then it is relevant. Whether the tangent is relevant to the topic is more debatable, but if you didn't want to continue then you wouldn't be replying. I said that most chests weren't worth opening. If I took the remark about giving Joshua the Energy Drop at face value I'd say that I wouldn't be giving Joshua stat boosters anyway and that the crit is also a factor. For the players that see the value in opening every chest or alternatively don't want to use another unit for the job then yes, I can see the value. It's just that for an experienced player or for a playthrough that's more planned out there is inherently less value in that sort of thing (you'll find that most LTCs, efficiency playthroughs, etc skip a lot of chests and coincidentally promote Joshua to swordmaster), and Swordmaster becomes more valuable. You originally said that Swordmaster is the inferior ("mostly worse") class which isn't necessarily true. I don't really care if you value the lockpicking utility personally, but to say that it is inferior generally speaking is just not true.

The loot not being valuable enough is good enough of a reason to ignore it. Money isn't so useful that we need to worry about getting every chest that gives us money, random promotion that we get late into the game, or random weapons that aren't that useful. I would prefer the +1 base str and crit. It would take Joshua like 3 extra levels as an Assassin to have the same strength.

Most of the time chest keys will suffice, but most chests aren't really worth the time it takes to open in the first place.

Hero is a pretty decent class in Engage because of Brave Assist; it's one of the few good class skills when combined with Dual Assist. I would be a little hesitant to say that it's anything more than average though because it probably falls off on a team composition that can deal sufficient damage, and it takes a while to come online. Most units would prefer other classes too if they want more combat utility.

Panette can reach 80% crit with a +5 Brionac before factoring in skill (Yunaka works but is far more situational), so there's some potential for a 1-2 range enemy phase nuke. It's probably not all that feasible without hoarding resources, and bumping up the crit a bit more to make it consistent might also be difficult, but there is something there. Otherwise yeah, Ike is probably not the best fit since units who are using Ike shouldn't have issues one rounding enemies without Pincer attack.

I tend to use it when I need to refresh emblem energy and use a Goddess Dance on the same turn, and positioning units around emblem energy while also having a lot of enemies in range isn't always possible. It allows some other units with slightly less desirable engage effects to recharge more freely, and it doesn't help that the best rally bots are all foot-locked. That's a problem if you're using it on a combat unit that isn't a Thief, but there isn't much else you'd want besides Canter on a unit who is only really being used for Goddess Dance. To be fair I don't personally find it to be useful on any other class, but I can imagine someone else finding a lot of value in it if they struggle without having Corrin up at all times.

It's useful to boost various weapons primarily used for engage attacks and some other niche cases that allows double hits without factoring in AS also.

I'm not sure how it works on other difficulties, but on Maddening you get a fixed 10 exp per battle and 5 SP when using a bond ring; emblem rings don't provide SP because there's the potential to fight an emblem in the arena.

Hero is great as a support class with Dual Assist and eventually Dual Assist+. Martial Master works if you want to make use of Lucina's Bonded Shield, but in both instances her combat is not as important. If you want to strictly make her a combat unit Wyvern is probably her best option. Warrior and Swordmaster might be alright, but that's not something I've tested and I can think of some obvious flaws with both of those choices.