Eryon

In regards to the persecution point, I'll note that while it might work for Deirdre and Arvis as an element to make them sympathetic it doesn't really work for the Loptyrians overall since they're toadies of a dragon who specializes in tormenting humanity. Manfroy in particular has way too much fun terrorizing the world for him to work as someone we're supposed to see as having once had persecution happen to him in his past and so he's pushed to wage war on the world out of revenge.

Do you have a link to that pitch? Just curious.

A key problem is that Fates Conquest's plot is structured so that Corrin both opposes Garon and also comes into conflict with Hoshido. They need to resort to shameless contrivances like crystal balls and bubble curses so that Corrin can help crush Hoshido in a way that lets him not only defeat Garon but still be framed as a paragon of virtue (or an edgy dark hero at worst).

My ultimate point is that Fates as claimed in the trailers was never said to be "grey." It was open about how Hoshido were peace-loving defenders while Nohr were glory-seeking conquerors. The choice was framed as between blood or loyalty. The choice as it is now is between justice (you know Nohr is badwrong so you'll fight them even though you at least see the royals as family) or loyalty (Nohr is badwrong but it's where those you grew up with live). Little to none of the problems with Fates' narrative stem in the game not being muh grey. Like: -Azura's obvious attempt to more or less be the Lewyn to Corrin's Seliph (that is, the dancer/singer who serves as an advisor/tactician who's not only more worldly but knows about the deeper elements of the setting) who fails at such since the plot needs to contrive a bubble curse for her to not just tell them all about the dastardly dragon trying to blow up humanity. -Iago being such a disposable villain. -Kaze not leaving Corrin when the Invasion Chapters start. -Outrealm Babies. -The game trying to make Takumi once he's undead look like a threatening force who needs to be stopped ASAP but for much of CQ he's either losing or otherwise failing to get the upperhand AND it's iffy to say Corrin's posse is less of a threat to the world. And so on.

The Black Knight helping Micaiah is no worse than Kurthnaga vouching for Ike or whatever. Zelgius even had an ulterior gain to doing so even. Face it, at worst both Ike and Micaiah get contrivances so that their mistakes or poor choices don't end the game. Need I remind you all how Ike mouthed off to Sanaki and she ended up not only letting him get away with but praising him for it?

That's not really "grey." That's just not being a cartoon villain. Ultimately the key problem with Garon's interactions is not that he's a villain but that he treats his birth kids as disposable lackeys like Iago is instead of his children. And sure, you can chalk that up to Anankos but that's no excuse since Sacred Stones had a similar plot point with Grado's royals except Fomortiis/Lyon at least bothered to act like himself around Eirika when manipulating her.

Again, he doesn't need to be more "grey." He needs to come off as someone the royals in Nohr could actually trust. As he is now, he does little to show that his own children aren't only expendable but are one wrong word away from getting executed. He can terrorize Hoshido since he wants their stuff. He can terrorize the Ice Tribe since they were caught petitioning Hoshido for aid. He can terrorize Chevalier since Hoshido was being proactive and were working with anti-Nohrian dissidents. None of it is really grey but is believable enough for a tyrant.

The problem with Garon isn't that he's not "morally grey." The problem with him is that he's a silly villain who's too much of a cackling cartoon villain that we're supposed to take seriously. He can be a brutal tyrant, but he needs to be more pleasant around his children and don't make his intentions on Corrin's life too obvious. Building on the above, Fates/Conquest's problem isn't failing to be "grey." Absent of a contrivance like amnesia to force in attachments to the Hoshidan royals, Corrin joining Hoshido is a matter of taking a stand against Nohr's imperialism. The trailers might have framed Da Choice as being between one's blood and one's bonds, but in actuality the Fates we actually got frames it as between one's justice and one's bonds. The 2nd could have worked if Fates had better writing that followed through what it was doing to the ultimate conclusion instead of chickening out. It would've much been better to have the two lands be one full on noble kingdom like Gallia or Renais and the other a full on empire like past villains with the games reflecting it instead of the wishy-washy campaigns we get. Nobody complained that Altea/Gallia/etc. should've been an grey countries and Nohr being a garbage dump looks more like it can be blamed on the inhabitants than their location.

They're just a composite of European empires/invaders/pillagers across history as a foil to Hoshido.

Keep in consideration that this bounces back onto the problem where the devs try too hard to establish Hoshido as peace-loving victims with royalty who adore Corrin so hard they all more or less accept what kind of dragon he/she is. To the point only Takumi and that one boss making a beeline for Garon are like the only Hoshidans acting like they're in a state of war with Corrin as an agent of the imperialist power trying to steal their land. There would have been no need for the ridiculous throne plan if the devs just established Hoshido as more open to wreaking righteous vengeance on Nohr (if only under Takumi, possibly after Ryoma is killed earlier in the story). Corrin would invade Hoshido not out of some silly plan to somehow save the world but since Nohr is his/her home and he/she won't let Hoshido/Takumi smash it up.

The ultimate problem with Betray!Takumi is that he's just an excuse for Corrin to face one of the Hoshidan royals as CQ's final boss without becoming unsympathetic. Except he gets a forced "fall from grace" arc that fails to have him do anything remotely as heinous Corrin's posse does. When I face Takumi, I fail to buy him as the next great threat when I've been playing as the likes Xander, Peri, Niles, all easily just as vile as Betray!Takumi is (at best). For this scenario to be close to working properly, Betray!Takumi needs to actually do heinous acts. Otherwise he is forced.

We're obviously meant to see Corrin as a paragon of virtue. He always get a way to not really be accountable for the atrocities (it's always the dastardly Nohrians like Iago doing them or her siblings like Ryoma excuse him). She gets a silly plan to save the world by terrorizing a peace-loving kingdom so that he can invade Hoshido but still not be an outright villain. Then her little brother gets a forced "fall from grace" arc in order for one of Hoshido's royals to be CQ's final boss but Corrin can still be sympathetic. Looked critically, Corrin would be down there with past villains like Michalis (or Hetzel if you want to play up the cowardice). The game doesn't have the strength to admit to this.

Conquest isn't really a villain campaign. At least, it's not in that the developers were too cowardly to take a villain faction like Nohr and follow through serving her to its ultimate end (see Corrin always getting excuses or some way to win without getting his hands too bloody when it counts at that time).

Nobody has told me how Nohr being shown as the obvious aggressors against the Hoshidans without saying the latter somehow provoked that is a problem. We have plenty of examples of humans brutalizing each-other unwarranted. If anything Fates would be a far stronger plot if they did just go with what pre-release info suggested what the games' conflict would be (a war between a warmongering/glory-seeking country against valiant defenders where Corrin is siding with one out of loyalty or the other out of blood). Axe or seriously revise all Silent Kingdom elements (namely Azura). Maybe make core cast smaller.

He told Corrin he'll have Elise treated if he goes with him to Nohr. He's being lenient by holding his war effort up to let his enemy join for a way to cure one of her little sisters.

I won't worry too hard as long as Three Houses doesn't make us play as the imperialists and yet still try to make the Lord's actions look needed to save the world or whatever. And get a dragon thrown in to remove responsibility.

Birthright's plot isn't even atrocious by Fire Emblem standards. Conquest and Revelation are, but they're both obviously trying to be something other than the classic FE plot structure. Fates should have just abandoned the obvious marketing gimmick and had the narrative start off with a much shorter version of Conquest where Corrin bails out once the mass murder starts and heads to Hoshido where they meet up with the Ryoma/Takumi Crew. Then Birthright happens more or less until Garon is beaten. Then the joint army heads up to Valla to stab Anankos to death.

The lack of a story as you call it can be blamed on how much of the game has to account for the presence of two other games supposed to be self-contained enough to have complete stories yet needing to play more than one learn all the details. I have no doubt that content was cannibalized or left out, which applies to Conquest as well (see Azura not telling Corrin about Anankos when she is able to). As I said, if Birthright was cleaned up a bit to be a single story it could work.

Birthright isn't even all that bad by FE standards (Blazing Blade has a worse plot) and if cleaned up a bit to be the core of a self-contained story could work. The worst plot aspects of Fates come from Conquest and Revelation, both games trying to be something other than Classic FE. Hell no. Corrin's Hoshidan siblings were too trusting/lenient towards him to begin with. Takumi's the only one who recognizes a dragon freak who was raised by their archenemies isn't owed unconditional trust. They didn't even take Corrin's demonic sword away from her. All considered, he's the only remotely capable leader in war among the Hoshidan royal brats since he actually acted like he was a leader at war (Ryoma disappearing to do whatever, Sakura being Sakura, Hinoka being a bad sister and shill for Corrin). Ryoma and Takumi didn't actually do anything badwrong though (against Nohr anyway).

The Blood Pact's problem is that it's an excuse for Ike and Micaiah's armies to battle without either side being the "villain." They could have easily rewrote the plot so that the Laguz Alliance went to war on Begnion with Daein also going to war on Begnion to punish it for the last war. That wouldn't be able to show off the dual armies gimmick though.

I mean Micaiah's not even impressive in action. Both gameplaywise and storywise she pales to Ike. What with she's so behind Ike as a commander that she has to do war crimes just to keep from quickly losing instead of slowly losing.

In which case Micaiah would be no different from Marth, Gaiden's Lords, Judgral Lords, Awakening's Lords, and Corrin (okay maybe not a good example). She's both hardly the first to have magic from her blood and also doesn't get any favors from it when fighting Ike (she's LOSING until Ashera awakens).

That's addressed by her heritage. She's hardly the first Lord with a lineage granting magic (see Judgral). And it still matters less than you think it does. Few of her battles past the early point were settled by her future sight. It's more an afterthought if anything. That goddess is more like the portrayal of gods in pagan European stories rather than Yahweh (that is, more of an empowered human than an inscrutable and untouchable force). And even then, Micaiah benefits less than you think since having to share a body with Yune means she has to share screentime with not just Ike but Yune who's the one who takes initiative at enough points in Part 4. Look I'll be the first to admit the plotpoint of Micaiah being Sanaki's lost elder sister is poorly done (namely for how it suggests that Miacaiah is younger than what she's implied to be before the reveal since she doesn't remember her life in Begnion). That said, it doesn't amount to much anyway since she never takes Begnion's throne. Now let's compare her to Ike. Ike: -Gets to lead a credited mercenary company just for being the boss' son over more qualified individuals. With the one who points out how that's a problem being the drunkard who bashes Laguz. -Insults his world's pope and gets away with it. Praised for it actually. -Has both a super special sword that only he can use (if only in gameplaying) and a special swordfighting style shared only by his father and one of the lead villains. -Turns out to be a victim of amnesia thanks to Sephiran reminding him. Yeah that's right, he had memories of his past erased. -Has the distinction of being such a good Beorc that the Laguz leaders' respect him, Lethe is nicer to him than to other Beorc, and does much to fix relations between the races just by not being a cartoon villian to the Subhumans. -Is the one who's both singled out by the Goddess of Chaos to serve as her champion against Ashera but HAS to finish off the Goddess of Order for the game to be won.

Judah hardly bothers to hide being a cackling supervillain. If anything, the ultimate problem here is that they failed to both give enough depth to the Dumah Faithful AND provide more background to Judah's goals ("Like, is he honestly loyal to Dumah or is he just riding his coattails?"). That, and Alm being a character who does more or less nothing wrong. Except he got appointed Greil's heir for just being his son by blood and still gets breaks from the plot (see how he mouths off to Sanaki and gets no punishment for it, praised for it even).

They just wanted to have a Lucina analogue in Echoes to draw in Fateswakening players.