[Who are your least favorite 3H characters?]

6 hours ago, RainbowMoon said:

Except that's literally not what racism is. Ingrid's anger towards the people of Duscur isn't based on race, it's based on the country's actions. That's why she phrases it "people of Duscur". Hell, we don't even know enough about Duscur to call it a race. Dedue's the only person from Duscur we actually see. It could've been home to any number of ethnicities. I mean, if you say "people of America" or "people of England", there's no way you can be talking about one specific race.

Islam is a religion, not a race. That comparison isn't exactly helping your argument.

Where are you getting this? The entirety of Duscur was just a plot device meant to give the Blue Lions a tragic backstory and fuel Dimitri's hatred towards Edelgard. Other than that, Duscur amounts to squat in the actual story. Like I said before, we don't even get to see Duscur or any of its people besides Dedue. Are you sure you're not thinking of Almyra, which I'll admit is a pretty clear Mexican border allegory?

I never said Ingrid's anger towards Duscur was justified or right, I said it was understandable. She's not hating blindly, that's the point. There's a clear reason behind her feelings, and it's not petty racism or "them's not from 'round deez parts", it's a tragedy that caused her personal loss and suffering. A tragedy that, as far as she (and most people in Faerghus) knows, the people of Duscur were directly responsible for. So yes, maybe in her anger and grief she convinced herself that Duscur deserved its punishment. After all, if it wasn't for their actions, her beloved Glenn would still be with her. It makes perfect sense that Duscur made its lasting impresson on her as a nation of heartless killers above all else. I mean, think about how someone who lost a loved one in WW2 would've thought about Germany after the war ended. It's the same exact feeling. And it's perfectly understandable. It isn't right, but it's a far-cry from the blind hatred of racism.

And like you said, she learns to let go of her anger through her supports with Dedue. The truly racist characters (like TWSITD) die, as they should.

...you don't really know what racism is, do you? If she hated the country she would just say, "I hate Duscur." But she doesn't. She says she hates the people of Duscur. There's a far cry difference from saying, "I hate China" and "I hate the people of China". One is considered racist, is it not? Your entire argument is rooted on the idea that you're personally unsure if Duscur is home to multiple ethnicities or not, but from what we know and what is implied, it isn't. It's not like America or England, so that's a pretty bad comparison. If you hated the people of India based on their actions, you'd be hating on Indians, which is ... lo and behold ... racism. Versus hating on the COUNTRY itself, has no effect on the people.

I didn't say Islam, now did I? I said "Muslims", which is indeed ... a race. The point where people conflate Islam the religion and Muslims is a whole other issue. But Islamphobia quickly turned to racism against Muslims, so my point is actually perfectly valid.

Second, we do see other people of Duscur in Dedue's paraologue, where they are generally designed to be darker. Almyra was also another allegory for race and racism. But by YOUR definition, Almyra isn't an allegory for race or racism either because it's ALSO a country. I'm not saying the game wrote it the best they could, but a lot of times in media (specifically video games and novels), use countries hand in hand with race. Not necessarily always correct, but it's what they do. In this case, the "people of Duscur" are referred to as a race/ethnicity. From what we see, people can define Dedue as someone from Duscur by his appearance alone. Which would suggest the people look like him. It's the same way people see a specific shade of dark skin and think (from appearance alone) they must be from India. Or they see angled eyes and assume, "Asian". 

I actually would argue that she is hating blindly. I never said her blind hatred WASN'T understandable. But it was indeed a blind hatred. Anger and tragedy do that to people. It can create a blind hatred that no longer sees people as individuals but as a group. And it's that lumping of an entire group of people that is racism. You act like racism is just black and white, when it's so much deeper and multi-faceted than that. Racism doesn't have to be petty or random. It can be rooted in things. Anger. Grief. Pain. But at the end of the day, racism IS blind hatred. And that's what Ingrid faced, and had to overcome. Racism can be overcome. People can change. I don't understand what's so wrong about admitting that she was racist and overcame her grief, sadness and the blind hatred she felt toward the people of Duscur (aka: racism). 

[Who are your least favorite 3H characters?]

6 hours ago, RainbowMoon said:

She's not exactly "racist" like a lot of people say. She holds a grudge against Duscur as a country purely because of the Tragedy, which led to the death of her fiancé Glenn and nearly killed her best friend Dimitri too. Her anger's totally understandable, but naturally makes things uncomfortable between her and Dedue at first. As far as actual race goes though, she doesn't really care. The whole "Ingrid is racist" thing was started as a joke because of Dedue's dark skin (like the "Dimitri murders woman" meme), but some people took it a bit too seriously.

 

1 hour ago, twilitfalchion said:

I'm glad to see this be pointed out. How anyone could interpret her mindset as racism (beyond the joke, as you mentioned) is something I fail to understand, when the events and dialogue of 3H clearly explain why she feels the way she does about Duscur and its people.

Ummm ... this is literally what racism is. In her actual support she says "The people of Duscur..." Not the country, the people. That's exactly how Americans held a hatred for Muslims after 9/11. That hatred is called racism. So yes. She is racist. Look at her later support. "I thought the people cruel and heartless, deserving of the tragedy that befell them." 

It wasn't a joke because of his dark skin. It was the fact she clearly held hatred for a whole people without actually considering things. The entirety of Duscur is an allegory for racism, it's plain as day. People hate blindly. People are racist, blindly. Tragedy does not justify racism, which was the entire point of her supports and her overcoming it. 

So it's not an 'interpretation' that her mindset was racist. She just actually was. Wishing death and genocide upon an entire people is racist. 

 

1 hour ago, Sooks1016 said:

How so :00

For reasons mentioned above. And boring because I felt they didn't give her much in the way of being her own person beyond being the 'mom' friend of Sylvain, Felix and Dimitri. My favorite supports of her are with Ashe (and her moments with Mercedes). I just felt there was so much more that could have been done for her, and against the rest of the Blue Lions cast, she (and Dedue) fell flat to me.

[Who are your least favorite 3H characters?]

On 9/6/2020 at 5:35 AM, haarhaarhaar said:

On a tangential note, scanning through this thread it seems like nobody so far has called Ferdinand, Ingrid, Alois or Shamir their least favourite character. I wonder if that's because they're generally popular, or they're just inoffensive and nobody has decided they're the most dislikable. Not complaining either way, but I am curious. 

OMG I forgot Ingrid even existed.

She's definitely on my dislike list, but she is so forgettable. XD I dislike her mostly for how boring she is as a character. The racism also rubbed me wrong even though 'she got over it', it just was blah to me. Her best moments were her running away from Mercedes. Lol. I definitely was upset about it, because I love Ingrid's design, and I really wanted to like her!

[Who are your least favorite 3H characters?]

Hmm only participating because I did the ones I liked.

I think the only character I truly hate to the core is Rhea. And not even because I don't think she's well-written, because I think she's incredibly well-written which is WHY I hate her. Because I hate her motivations and have 0 sympathy for her, but I understand why she did everything she did. But I also just hate religious extremism, so I was pretty much destined to hate the church. 

Leonie, Seteth, and Catherine definitely round out my top 4 tho. I just really don't like their characters/archetypes/tropes. I will complain about them all the time and I took pleasure in killing them in-game. XD Is it surprising 2/3 are church loyalists? No. Did I almost add Cyril to this list because of his undying, boring devotion to Rhea? Yes.

And then there's the characters I don't care about, because I just don't think they were well written or very nuanced. They didn't do anything for me personally. Ignatz. Raphael. Lorenz. I honestly forget these 3 were in the game (also they were just ugly designs, RIP).

And then there's these characters who I don't hate or dislike, but I'm not exactly neutral. Linhardt, Cyril, Dedue, Flayn, Gilbert. Each had a few supports I liked and a few I didn't, which left me mixed neutral on them. Maybe we should call this group my "Lost Potential" characters.

[Top 10 Characters]

5 hours ago, Anacybele said:

Sure, but there's always going to be the chance that a baby is made anyway, even with birth control. It isn't 100% effective. And simply due to that studhorse line, I can't imagine Sylvain wanting to risk it.

Even if he doesn't want to risk it, there are still intercourse/sex methods you can do that do NOT result in a baby and are still sex, sooo....you're right. Sylvain confirmed to be kinky. XD

This almost makes me wanna move him up a spot in my favorites list, because I just have such appreciation for him.

[Top 10 Characters]

6 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

But why would this be the case when like I said, he says he doesn't want to be used for making Crest babies? Surely he knows how babies are made and I don't think condoms and whatnot exist in Fodlan.

Well you can have recreational fun sex. Sex isn't only about making babies. And there are other methods of birth control that aren't condoms, and all manner of sexual things you can do that aren't directly related to intercourse. And condoms have existed for a very, very long time. Ancient Egyptians and Romans used condoms (they used to made out of animal skins and not rubber/plastic).

[Top 10 Characters]

15 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

One of Sylvain's advice box questions has him mention that he brings girls into his dorm room at night, and one of the possible responses is to have Byleth (who lives in the dorm under Sylvain) complain about the noise he makes whenever he does so.

I'm not saying that that's conclusive evidence, but it does make it easy to see why some interpret Sylvain as sleeping around.

I think it's pretty heavily implied that yes, Sylvain definitely sleeps around. I mean I'm sure they only went so explicit given it's a game, but I'd agree that this was one of the many moments that stuck out to me to show that Sylvain f***s. XD

My favorite character are (in relative order and separated by gaps in favoritism).

1. Edelgard
2. Dimitri

3. Sylvain
4. Dorothea
5. Felix

6. Hapi
7. Ashe
8. Yuri

9. Petra
10. I can't do it. I just can't choose. Claude/Annette/Mercedes/Lysithea. One of them.

[Anyone else feel these are by far the most boring CYL winning units we've gotten so far]

8 hours ago, Yexin said:

point is, that's what Legendary Heroes are for

CYL has never been about characters "being at their final forms", except for Alm, Celica and Micaiah

that's partly why more people aren't happy with this year's CYL, they look like Legendary Heroes

You can't say it's not and then say 'except' and name 3, because that proves it's not a rule.

Also, they don't look like Legendary Heroes, because clearly the Legendary Heroes for them would be their first tier time-skip promoted looks. When they've each done 'legendary' things. And then Edelgard's Legendary was exactly this. Her first time-skip look, as it should have been. Dimitri is also going to be in that look when he gets a Legendary Hero. 

So when they already have clear legendary hero forms, I'm not sure what's surprising about them using the next stage for CYL? Unless you want like 4 alts of the character? I could never see them making the 3 Lords first time-skip looks, just normal units. 

[Anyone else feel these are by far the most boring CYL winning units we've gotten so far]

It's my personal favorite of the CYL's so far. It's just a popularity contest, and 3 Houses was the newest shiny toy, so it's not really boring to me by any means.

I am also a personal fan of canon when it comes to CYL units (aka: heroes wielding their most preferred weapon). I love Lucina for example, but I didn't love the fact she was wielding a Lance, I'd rather it have been a sword. I'm okay with alts (especially seasonal ones), giving characters uncharacteristic weapons and move types, but I've never *loved* CYL being them wielding different weapons. I didn't mind it, but seeing these classic characters with their classic weapons really gave me so much heart because they FEEL like their characters.

So to me none of it felt 'lazy' or 'uninspired'. It felt truly top tier. These are their "final forms" so to speak. Their most powerful, at the top of their game outfits. So I guess I wanted to see them represented and CYL seemed like the perfect place for it. I think we can say we all have different preferences on how CYL is treated, but it feels a bit much to say because you don't like something it's 'lazy'.

3 hours ago, DefyingFates said:

I hope we get something better next year onwards - along with a hard limit on how many reps each game can have.

I hate this idea of an imposed limits on rep from the game. That completely takes away the point of CYL. It's a popularity contest. It's about who the fans think is most popular at that given moment. It's not truly fair if fans think one character is more popular, but they impose a limit that suddenly means that the one people voted for, doesn't get in. It could literally be all Fates (my least favorite game) and that still wouldn't make me say "Let's put a hard limit on rep", because if people voted for an all Fates sweep, that is entirely their prerogative and means those 4 characters are the most popular.

[If you were the only person voting in CYL5, who would win?]

Easy. 

Men:

Robin - He's still my favorite character, so I love him. I'd love him wearing Chrom (that one cipher card with him as king with the long cape/crown) garb, wielding the (first) Levin Sword. Some alt timeline where he and Chrom get married and both become kings. XD OR artwork of him in his Grandmaster outfit, but with his special being him (full red eyes/marks), tapping into the power of Grima.

Yuri - He's a Lord-adjacent character. I also just really liked him in Cindered Shadows, so he could be 2nd place. They could design him however they want.

Women:

Hapi - I adore her. Her personality consistently made me laugh, her supports made me love her even more. Also I share her disdain and hatred of the Church, and I loved how she didn't even try to hide it. Edelgard was (relatively) subtle, but Hapi was like, "These guys suck and I should say it."

I literally don't care who is second - I can't think of any other girl character I want in the game/alt, tbh.

Others I would want to see:

Ashe.  That's it. That's all.

[Hapi for Next Choose your Legends?]

9 hours ago, Diovani Bressan said:

The problem was that CYL was always that event where different heroes would appear with specials attires. Each CYL banner in previous years had heroes from different games. Never 2 heroes from the same game.

CYL 4 looks more like a normal New Heroes banner than a CYL banner, because they are all from the same game, using attires from their promoted classes. Not for you, but for me and a lot of other people... it was not that exciting.

Yeah, I can see this, but I also disagree. CYL was and has always been, just a popularity contest. Of course it was split between different games originally. There weren't any brand new games out, and there weren't that many alts. 

CYL4 came at the heels of Three Houses, so the clean sweep was expected and completely in line with what a popularity contest is. This CYL feels just like the other ones to me, just with 'grouped' heroes so to speak. And with the nature of Three Houses having all these promotions/looks, I kinda thought it was a very smart way to incorporate those final looks, since it was pretty obvious we'd get their timeskip ones as Legendary Heroes. 

I agree maybe it's not 'exciting', but when has a popularity contest ever been exciting? And with a shrinking pool of top contenders, I think every year is bound to get less exciting, barring a remake. But then again (personally) I don't think a sweep from any game is boring. I'd be fine with other games sweeping in similar fashions for CYL5. I'd even be fine with another 3H sweep. I feel like when Chrom finally gets it (if we're still doing it by then), Robin will probably be with him, for an Awakening Male sweep. 

-

And on 'topic', YES to Hapi. XD Was literally not interested by her at all, and then was like, "Oh, I love her". I'd love to see her win. Yuri too. I'd be fine with Cindered Shadows taking home a win with either of them in the next one. 

[Official Pull Topic]

Broke that awful pity rate with another pull and got Lysithea!

So now officially have all 4 CYL heroes! Done pulling, though if I gather enough orbs in the next 20 days and nothing else interesting comes out, I might dip back in for the 80 pull spark in hope of some merges!
 

[Official Pull Topic]

Okay, well I ended up with all 3 of my bby's, so that's good, but now have a 4.75% pity rate I need to break and I'm out of orbs. Gah. 

Pulled L!Dimitri in one of the original 40 pulls (round 4) (+Atk/-Def), and then because I had maybe a total of 2 green orbs in ALL of the 40 pulls, chose L!Edelgard as my first spark pull. And then went to the free summon to choose Claude!

Now I need to break this unfortunate pity rate...hopefully I get a merge for one of the three...

 

[Forging Bonds: A New Future! (August 18th)]

No, I do not take criticism.

Spoiler

I just grinded to get all the summoning tickets, but I think all their different convos are very interesting (Claude's is unfortunately the weakest imo). But I like when they're all together interacting!

[Three Houses has now been out for one year! How have your opinions on it changed since release?]

5 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

While I'm not a fan of Kris, Corrin, or Byleth, I actually like Robin because he is still his own character. And frankly, I don't find him being the vessel of a evil god dragon to be bad writing by any means. If anything, it's more potential that would have been explored well if they tried more. 

It isn't like Awakening had the entire story revolve around Robin. It didn't. Its issue was that it crammed three arcs that could be its own game into a single game. It feels rushed and needed more work. 

I agree with this mostly. Robin was the least 'avatar' character because he had a very distinct personality and just felt like a character to the game, rather than "my" character. I got to control him a bit more than the other characters but he wasn't "me". So in that respect he's actually my favorite, because it felt okay that story did end up revolving around him at the end.

Whereas Corrin was written to be specifically 'me' and had a weak, grating personality in turn and the story revolved around them from start to finish, which made them an even worse character.

Byleth (as a silent protag) was fine, because he lacked ANY personality, which to me is better than a character that has a bad one, but out of the ones mentioned, I think Byleth does the whole avatar thing the best in terms of being a literal blank slate, because if we're going to have an avatar character, I think it works the best. The weird part about Byleth was that their decision essentially determines the outcome of everything and the 'bonds' they create, which seems silly since they have 0 personality.

That being said, I definitely just want a customizable strategist character who participates in the wars/battles, but isn't even CLOSE to the main focus. So Mark, but playable essentially. Then the silent part would be fine for me, and it would feel like an impassive observer where they ask my advice.

Overall though, I think 3 Houses teeters on being my favorite FE game for sure. I've been replaying Dimitri's route again, and I still see the same flaws I did a year ago, but I think I appreciate the fullness and depth of the story even more this time around. I think the only thing that I don't particularly love IS Byleth, even though I think he was done the best he could have been with them making him essential to the plot.

[Fire Emblem Heroes - New Heroes (A New Future)]

I totally forgot about the free pick if you do full pulls! For some reason I was thinking I barely had 100 orbs, but I actually have 170, so this is perfect! I can just go through and see who I get and then probably pick Edelgard or Dimitri depending on who doesn't show up, since I *think* I've decided on Claude as my free pick.

[Fire Emblem Heroes - New Heroes (A New Future)]

This only made it harder to decide who I want. Claude or Edelgard? Claude ... or Edelgard? Edelgard ... or Claude?

Edelgard being a 2 move armor when above 25% HP is like ... amazing. She'll be the first armor I consistently use. On the other hand ... I have two flying teams, and Claude would be a great addition (and tbh I just love his artwork so much).

And I will naturally pull for Dimitri with the rest of my orbs. I have (generally) good luck with greens, so I'm thinking Claude to avoid the never-ending colorless pool, but I'm worried the ONE time I do that, I'll never get Edelgard. Ugh. I wish I didn't love Three Houses so much...

I've never had a banner I wanted every single unit. Lysithea I do want, but she's the only one I'm okay not getting this time around. I can wait on her.

 

[New Feh Channel!]

Oof, I love all of them so much, this is so difficult. Literally the WORST CYL because I can't PICK! While I'm literally obsessed with Edelgard, I also hate armored units. Literally on this Forma Unit round, I didn't even use Ike or Greil, because I hate them so much. And since they made all her other ones (save one) armored, I was really hoping they'd make her something else. Alas, I suppose I can knock her off, but also she has the best art of the all the Edelgard's, which hurts my soul, because I got her other one as a pity breaker and I had to fodder her, cause that art was so ugly...

Claude's art looks ... divine. Like truly, just ... divine. 

Lysithea's art also looks amazing. Truly stunning.

Dimitri's art looks good. Honestly if they had given him Claude-tier artwork, I think I would have chosen him hands-down, but his artwork is just merely good. But I love Dimitri as a character and his calvary version artwork is so hideous and this one is good.

So really I want all 4. Ugh. I might have to go with Claude as my actual free pick, and then pick Dimitri after all those other summons. And then just snipe for Edelgard & Lysithea. This is such a tough decision, i don't even know.

Dragonflower updates!! Yay! M!Robin prepare to be boosted again. I still use him a lot, but poor child just keeps falling behind. 😞 

I'm glad we can finally give Alfonse a boon! As well as all our Grail units!! That will be really nice. And I can finally edit up some of those +0 units I have with bad assets/flaws.

[Fire Emblem Heroes - Special Heroes (Overseas Memories)]

Wow my luck was so bad on this one. 180 orbs to get ONE 4* Sylvain. All I got were two green off-focus units (Sue and Micaiah) and lots of 4* other green characters. This was all sniping and with a suspicious amount of green orbs on each pull.

I was hoping for like one 5* Sylvain and 1 4* Sylvain so I could upgrade+merge to get rid of the flaw. But there's other banners I need orbs for, so I'll come back to this since it's 30 days.

But dang. I suppose this is what I get for getting all the characters I've been wanting in 15-25 orbs max on all the other banners. Hahaha. 

[Could Hubert actually be a believer of the goddess? (spoiler possible)]

5 hours ago, Timlugia said:

Could be, but it also seems strange to carry an icon if he states to hate the goddess.

It's just irony. I don't really think it's supposed to be a deep thing.

They probably just wanted to give him a drop item, and the Goddess Icon is kinda ironic and hilarious. I think it's pretty clear from his supports where he stands, so not really a point looking into something so surface level.

[Special Heroes: Bridal Beloveds]

I'll skip this banner, but wow....duo hero Micaiah/Sothe is temptinggg. I loveeeed them together when I played Radiant Dawn, like hardcore fanboy of them together, so my childhood heart is so happy. I might do a *few* pulls for them, but I'll try to control myself.

The art for them is also really pretty! And nice to see some more Tellius units. Makes me wonder if the next New Hero banner is gonna be Tellius or Awakening.

[Fire Emblem Three Houses Magic System Analysis]

The split between Black/Dark was executed very poorly, but I personally loved it lore wise. It was essentially the difference between "normal" magic, and magic created by those dark methods from those that had been experimented on (I'm assuming since Hubert worked with those that slither, he had access to their powers). I do like the idea of it just being all under "Reason" or something, but I understand the lore/story behind it, which I appreciated. But it did greatly hinder classes in how they implemented it.

I also personally love unique spell lists. Sure I miss customization, but I think unique spell lists make each character feel a little more unique and special. I do wish there was a way to maybe add just one spell to a person's list, through something equippable or using a spell a certain amount of times (like how fire goes away if you're not in specific classes). But overall I actually think the spell lists helped balance it, because certain tanks couldn't get access to certain spells.

I'm really glad they did away with staves, and unlimited stave use, while making Warp/etc. limited to some characters and decreasing use. 

So overall yeah, I think magic was incredibly well balanced in 3 Houses, essentially just building off Echoes (also great). At the very least it's one of my favorite magic systems in the FE series, probably because it really made me strategize who I made a mage/their uses/positions on the battlefield and what I chose them to do. For example, my Thoron users had different purposes than my 'close' range magic fighters, which was fun.

[Blue Lions is the saddest]

I definitely agree that Blue Lions is the saddest route for me. Though it's mostly because I have to kill Edelgard. Haha. I vividly remember my first playthrough (Blue Lions), and as much as I loved the characters I had such a soft spot for Edelgard and her ideals after seeing how much the world negatively affected my poor BL babies. And I was super sad when negotiations broke down, and then the end when Edelgard does that to herself, made me really sad for her. Also because I feel like Blue Lions is the most realistic in the fact ... nothing *really* changes by the end. Even after all that war and death, things get a little better, but it's so incomplete and really society doesn't really grow or change that much. Which makes me kinda sad.

I think Golden Deer had the potential to be sad, but idk. It was too detached.

Spoiler

Dimitri's death didn't really hit me at all. He was too much a crazed person in that one. At least in Crimson Flower he was like a focused villain. But in Golden Deer he was just crazy, and honestly needed to be put down, imho, so I wasn't really sad about. This comes from someone who is still upset we couldn't marry Dimitri in Blue Lions, so I do LOVE him, I just didn't really have any sympathy for him in that route.

Crimson Flower was I think the happiest route. There was nothing really sad about it to me (except killing former students/teachers (well Leonie/Catherine I happily murdered)), because it felt like the entire route I was on the right path. With Blue Lions and Golden Deer it just felt ... like I had made the wrong choice. Those were the routes I played first and idk. Golden Deer felt more 'right' then Blue Lions, but Crimson Flower really was the only route where I was invested in the actual outcome because I knew it to be better. So there was a feeling of true ... happiness at the end. Because through all the darkness came hope and light.

[VW as dlc would've make 3H better]

20 hours ago, Ottservia said:

let me put to you another way. Let's say we have two characters and we make them fight one another. There's no unique strategies, no motivation for either of them to be fighting each other, nor do either of them have any personal stake in the fight. They are simply just a random obstacle that is in the way. Now you tell me how interesting that fight would be from a storytelling perspective. It is the same deal with verdant wind. There's definitely conflict in this story but why should I care? None of the characters seem to really care about what's going on. They just kinda want it to end which is fine if a bit basic. This war doesn't mean anything to them. It doesn't advance any of their arcs. It's just kind of an obstacle in their way. Yeah there's a mystery but that mystery is very poorly built up and the pay off is negligible at best. It's only really brought up a couple times in part 1 only to be unceremoniously info-dumped on you once you rescue Rhea and then you go fight mole people. Nothing is really gained out of solving that mystery nor is that mystery really properly addressed in any real capacity. No one is searching for any leads or anything. Also(and I could be very well be misremembering here) there's no real as to why this mystery needs to be solved in the first place. Obviously we, the audience, want to know because world building but why does Claude want to know so badly? I don't think that's ever really addressed. Like given what we know about his character there's really not much of a reason for him to care. He just kinda wants to fuck off to Almyra and end Racism or take over Foldlan and end Racism either way solving the mystery and fighting nemisis has literally nothing to do with that. It's just something he just happens to do. It's basic storytelling 101. You give a character a goal and make them take steps towards attaining that goal. The conflicts they encounter along the way should be thematically relevant to that goal. That's just how you write a story.

In terms of mystery stories specifically, the mystery needs to be intriguing, properly built up, a reason to solve, and have a satisfying payoff. To build a proper mystery you need lay clues, hints, even red herrings so that the road to solving that mystery is interesting and engaging. VW doesn't really do any of that if I recall and the answer to the questions the mystery raises aren't really all that satisfying in my opinion.

Conflicts do not have to be thematically relevant. Sure if you're a beginner writer, perhaps it's easier to tell a conflict that's thematically relevant, and so that's 'basic' storytelling. But there's so many ways conflicts present themselves in real life. They're not always thematic. Sometimes stories are weaker without thematic conflict, yes. But sometimes they're weaker with thematic conflict - see SS or even Fates. They both present thematic conflict for the detriment of the story. Thematic conflict sounds good on paper, but it doesn't always work and often times is painfully transparent, predictable and boring, because it's the most basic of storytelling. 

But I don't think Claude's story would have been better with thematic conflict. I think it could have been written better in general. But it's not because of a lack of 'thematic conflict' because there are themes within his story.

I agree, several of the characters in Golden Deer do NOT care that much, and I think that's a flaw of the writing. I found Golden Deer to have the weakest character cast, aside from a few strong outliers. But I wouldn't say the war doesn't mean anything to them. But the war does advance at least Claude's arc, by being an obstacle to what he wants to achieve. He realizes there's more to it than just ending racism. There's more corrupt systems and he wants to help everyone. Was his ending written the best by having him run off to Almyra? No. But that's less a fault of the route and them just not executing his character arc to the fullest.

It is addressed why Claude wants to know. It all begins with Miklan transforming, which makes him want to know the truth behind the crests, hero relics and Fodlan's true history. He's supposed to be leader of the alliance, which is IN Fodlan. I think any leader would want to know the truth behind the land in which they hope to rule. And then Claude is the only one of the 3 house leaders who cares about what happened to Byleth as a baby. If you recall he takes the diary and reads it, which is what makes him distrusting of Rhea. From his perspective, Byleth is the key to attaining what he wants, but also one his only true friends. He vows to help Byleth uncover the truth about their past and what Rhea did to them as a baby. Without the DLC, this IS a great mystery .

And Claude's route deals with those that slither, because he's the only one of the 3 house leaders that isn't blinded by hatred for the other and sees an outside perspective. It is his curiosity and insatiable need to understand the truth that leads him to Nemesis and that entire operation. Which is actually a rather fitting theme, that the one house leader without any true stakes in the conflict is the one to both uncover the threat and neutralize it behind the scenes, which is exactly how Claude likes to work.

I would agree they don't work up the mystery in the best way, but there is still a mystery and it still is solved. There are clues, hints (idk about the red herrings), and so yes you can say it doesn't have a satisfying payoff, but you can't say it wasn't attempted or that it didn't have ideas or try, which was your original argument. Did you really talk to Claude during your play through? Because he does give answers to all of this through just speaking to him at the monastery to just minor cut scenes. It all works to build a bigger picture. 

My issue with Claude's character is that they tried to make him too many things, and have too many different goals that are conflicting in nature and couldn't' seem to decide which route to stick on him. But to say the entire route lacked ideas/concept would be a heavy reach. To say they didn't properly execute the concept would be very correct. 

[VW as dlc would've make 3H better]

3 hours ago, Ottservia said:

that's great and all but then that begs the question, why should I care about anything that happens? If the characters don't care, then I sure as hell won't care. If there are no stakes personal or otherwise, there's no tension and without tension you lose interest. The fact the characters have no stake in the conflict at hand just makes everything kind of boring. There's no struggle. Nothing to really overcome you're just kinda going through the motions. There's nothing learned or gained by the end. There's no build up to anything and without that you have no payoff. There's just nothing really here. There's nothing to really keep me invested. I like claude and he's a fine enough character if he doesn't care about what's happening, why should I? Things in this story just kinda happen because plot really. It just feels like the plot is just kinda dragging the characters along instead of the other way around. Like it doesn't feel like characters are doing things in this story out of some kind of agency but rather because they just need an excuse to exist within this story. I dunno if that made sense but that's how I feel

Why would you not care? If the other routes are all biased perspectives without anyone really searching for the truth, you can be sure I REALLY care about the route that is all about solving the mysteries left behind from the other routes. 

Also it's sorta like you missed the whole struggle. They all have stakes in the conflict, they're just not thematic stakes. You're acting as if because there's no thematic message there aren't stakes/struggle/agency of the characters?

Claude is struggling to keep the Alliance whole. He's struggling against racism. He's struggling against a war that's killing people for a history that's been warped.

The build up is everything to do with the mystery presented before him. The mystery of what is the true story behind Edelgard's version and Dimitri's blind acceptance/anger and Rhea's built up lies of the church. That's the build-up. And therein lies the payoff.

Just because you weren't personally invested in the mystery, doesn't mean you can say it didn't exist. And you're right—the plot does happen to VW characters—but at the same time, that's what makes their story powerful. Because they're trying to regain and find their agency that was stolen from them by the war. I think it's actually a brilliant thing to do. A story focused around characters who fight for their agency. To me that doesn't feel like an excuse to exist, it feels like a story we don't get told very often, which is why I appreciated it so much. Could it have been done better? Absolutely. But at the core, there's nothing wrong with a story like that.

I understand what you're saying, I'm just saying I think you're focusing on one issue—themes—and ignoring that everything else does in fact exist in that route. VW has great ideas. I just think the execution wasn't the best.

And I say all this with VW being my least favorite of the main 3 routes between the house leaders. I felt VW gave me a much more interesting perspective that was also highly more realistic (to me) than SS did. And I feel like there was a lot more potential in VW with the story they were *trying* to tell.