Whisky

Bartre isn’t a monster like Geitz but he does have some appealing qualities, and his opportunity costs aren’t nearly as high as Geitz. Bartre is pretty bulky and has high Str. He can deal massive damage to Wyverns with a Steel Bow and even one shot a few of them at base. He is arguably the best user of Armads since he starts at A rank Axes and Lott/Wade have the too much opportunity cost to be worth promoting. (Geese and Gonzales too). As for how how good the Warrior class itself is for them. Bartre would lose some useful things in other classes. Having an accurate ranged option is nice especially when it gets 3x Mt against Wyverns. Obviously there would be advantages for him to be a Paladin but there would also be disadvantages. I think classes in general are more balanced in FE6 than in most FEs. Geitz would undoubtedly be much better as a mounted class or probably a magic class. Warrior isn’t too bad for him though. The high Str lets him 1RKO Wyverns with a Hand Axe which is a very impressive feat, and something he’d have a harder time doing in most other classes. Hero would probably just result in overkill Spd making it worse overall. So Warrior might be somewhere around the middle for both units? But Geitz is one of the only units with high enough stats to pull that off. Warrior is a bad class for Dorcas and Bartre because they’re slow and would really benefit from more Spd. But, I’m confused about something. SerenesForest says that Warrior’s have a higher base Spd than Fighters in FE7, but Fighters don’t gain any Spd when the promote, so how does that work?

That’s a fair point. Actually I think both Warrior and WatMaster in 3H are more like Berserkers from previous games. Despite being called ‘Warrior’ since in this game they have a 10% Crit bonus (with Axes) and don’t have any bonus with Bows. WarMaster is a an upgrade to Warrior aside from being gender locked, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t a direct upgrade, it just means that females don’t get the upgrade.

Let’s move on to Axe users then. I’m going to include Warrior and WarMaster in 3H for this. There isn’t a distinction between Warrior and Berserker in that game so I’m going to count WarMaster for both topics. I’m only listing games that I’ve played and not including Shadow Dragon because I don’t feel familiar enough with it. There are no Axes in Echoes. I’m not going to talk about Engage yet because it’s still pretty new and I’m still forming my opinions on it. Three Houses Well how about that, 3H is on top instead of bottom for a change… I’m talking about WarMaster, not Warrior. WarMaster is the upgrade to Warrior in this game so it makes sense to include it. WarMaster is a very strong class with +5 Str and +20 Crit. It also has 6 Mov unlike some infantry classes. If you want mobility you pick Wyvern but if you want power you go with WarMaster. For raw killing power it competes with Sniper and Grappler and certain characters can kill effectively without any of that, so it’s not amazing, but it is still very strong. It can reach over 100% Crit with Smash. It’s also arguably better with Swords than the sword classes with its high Str and Crit bonus, and has possibly the best enemy phase combat in the game. Radiant Dawn I’m not sure, I haven’t really used either Boyd or Nolan much but this seems like a good spot for this game. Cavalry were somewhat nerfed in this fame with ledges and Boyd is decently strong and Nolan is pretty useful for the Dawn Brigade. Path of Radiance On the one hand, Boyd becomes really strong in this game and eventually doubles enemies effectively too, and at 1-2 range. He has good combat and Con being based on Str sort of makes him faster than he seems. On the other hand this is the game that gives mounted units super Canto and there are a lot of really good mounted units that can easily dominate the battlefield with Boyd not being able to keep up. Binding Blade This is a tough call, but I honestly think the class is better here than in the other GBA games, at least in a vacuum. The units in the class might be a different story, but it’s not like the Fighters are great units in the other GBA games either. Being able to use Bows as a Warrior is much more useful here than in the other GBA games. There is more competition for Heroes Crests in this game though. That’s definitely a fair and solid reason for putting this game lower, but Bartre is still pretty good. Sacred Stones Garcia is pretty useful early on. He has solid base stats and can double some of the very slow enemies in this game despite his low Spd. There are also ways to mitigate his low Spd issue with there being a few Speedwings in this game, along with him making good use of the Brave Axe and Garm. He can also straight up 1HKO frail enemies. He has 1-2 range and solid bulk. The class itself is not good though and Garcia does have Spd issues in part due to the class. Garcia definitely wants to promote to Hero over Warrior for the Spd increase which doesn’t help Warrior’s case. Blazing Sword The class itself is about the same as in Sacred Stones. Dorcas and Bartre are both really slow, more so than Garcia. I don’t have much to add. I just think Sacred Stones is more balanced and there’s a higher opportunity cost to using these two. Geitz is really good, but has his own issues with needing to train both Eliwood and Lyn to get him. I also think that’s just Geitz being really good in general and not much to do with his class. Three Houses …well, it’s sort of on top but also still at the bottom. WarMaster is good, but Warrior is one of the worst classes in 3H, with probably only Hero being worse. 5 move infantry class with poor stats and nothing special about it? Yeah, it’s terrible. It seems strange to list 3H twice but there’s such a big difference in quality between WarMaster and Warrior and I wanted to talk about how terrible Warrior is. - I can see the GBA games being in pretty much any order depending on the reasoning. I’m not sure about the Tellius games placement either, with POR being dominated by mounted units I don’t know if it should be above all the GBA games.

Oh I see. I didn’t realize this.

Yeah.. I have no idea how to do that. They’re a utility class, not a combat class. They all function mostly the same. They can all mostly open chests and steal items equally. Their value depends on how many good items there are for them to get and whether you can buy keys or not, but that seems complicated. How much does their combat even take part on their analysis when it mostly doesn’t matter because that’s not what you use them for?

I didn’t really think of fog vision. Stat wise I agree Swordmaster’s +1 Str isn’t a big advantage. I don’t think there will be much of a noticeable difference in Joshua’s performance in either class. The 15% Crit boost can help get kills against tougher enemies but it’s not reliable, and Assassin can get Crits with a Killing Edge too. The 30% from Binding Blade would be a different story but that’s not the case here. Assassin gets fog vision, lockpick, and also can find items in the desert. And the increased exp gain results in better stats in the long run. Alright yeah, with all of those factors I can see someone considering Assassin better. Swordmaster does have its own advantages still so it depends on the situation. I don’t think it’s a significant difference either way but Assassin does have some appealing attributes.

I don’t know how much of a difference Assassin’s exp bonus makes. Even a few extra levels for Assassin wouldn’t make a huge difference. Joshua pretty much doubles everything regardless and Spd is his highest growth so that’d be the biggest difference. Assassin needs a few extra levels to catch up to Swordmaster in Str and few more levels to get ahead. So Swordmaster is stronger right after promoting and Assassin is stronger late game, but either way it’s a small difference. A few extra levels would give him extra HP and stuff too, but I’d need to see examples of where that actually matters. A few more HP doesn’t usually make a huge difference. Against enemies that he can’t kill without a Crit, Swordmaster’s Crit bonus could be more useful. I don’t think there’s a significant difference between the two classes either way, but I don’t think Swordmaster is outclassed by Assassin.

Oh they don’t? I had no idea. That’s disappointing. Yeah that reasoning is fair enough. Catherine is really strong if you recruit her early. She’s the only unit I’d use as a Swordmaster and I think it’s a good idea to switch her to something better later but you can definitely get some good use out of her as a Swordmaster pre time skip. I’d say it’s what’s best. Does it even change anything here? I think Swordmaster is better than Assassin personally. Colm and Rennac can open chests, Joshua can focus on combat. I don’t think there’s too huge of a difference in his performance either way though. Maybe if you’re playing an Ironman and got Colm killed than you would want to make Joshua an Assassin, but for the most part I’d go with Swordmaster for more reliably killing power.

I’ve heard that Joshua is used in LTCs yeah. I find it’s rarely useful for Thieves to be good at fighting. I just use Colm and Rennac for chests. If I’m training up Joshua I want to be good in combat and prefer Swordmaster. I don’t think Assassin is much worse of an option, but I wouldn’t consider Swordmaster outclassed by If like it is in 3H. @Shadow Mir Hey, I understand not being fond of Swordmasters in the FE7-9, I don’t think they’re great either, but can I ask why you rated 3H higher? I think Swordmasters are terrible there.

This is judging the class itself. In most games characters and classes are a package deal so you have to look at the individuals, but in games like 3H and Engage where any unit can be any class, we’re just looking at Sword Fighter and Hero, not Lord/Successuer. Diamont can be considered as a Hero.

Yeah pretty much. There aren’t strict rules on it. You can rate the games however you think is fair, the important part is to explain your reasoning so that people will see if you’re including the skills or not. In my opinion, Warrior and Hero both of have pretty good mastery skills (Wrath and Defiant Str respectively). But it really doesn’t look good for the class when you’re waiting to master it so that you can switch into a better class as soon as possible. It’s also probably not even worth getting those skills because you’d have to spend too much time in those bad classes making it not worth it. Oh yeah Heroes seem pretty good in Engage. I think the classes seem to be better balanced in Engage than in most FE games.

Even if we ranked the game in the Swordmaster topic, I think it's fine if they get ranked twice so Echoes Dread Fighters can be in this list too and any other game where that might apply, like FE1 and FE3 (which I haven't played). I'm not going to count Ike since he's a Lord. I'm also not going to list Shadow Dragon this time since I've realized that I really just don't know how good classes are in that game so I'll leave that to people more familiar with it and only include the games I've played more. So, in which game are Heroes at their best and worst? Have they gotten better or worse over time or stayed about the same? Swordmasters had a lot of range in quality throughout the games, sometimes really good like in Echoes or Binding Blade, sometimes not so good like in, a lot of games actually, and some times somewhere in the middle. With Heroes, I think they're almost always good, though there are exceptions. I could really go either way with a lot my rankings here so take the order with a bit of a grain of salt. I'll justify my reasoning though so that's the important part. Echoes Dread Fighters are really solid in that game. I always found them strong and reliable, and I think they're considered really good in meta discussions. They're strong, fast, and halve all magical damage (after getting a +5 Res bonus just because). Sabre in particular seems really good. He's really fast and tanky. But Kamui and Deen also seem good and the Villagers can be pretty good as Mercenaries too. With Dread Fighter being seemingly one of the best classes in Echoes, it makes it a strong case for being at the top, even though it does have some tough competition. Sacred Stones Maybe it's not even Hero that's good here and just Gerik. This guy is a beast. His base stats are so good, right off the bat he's one of the best units at taking out Gargoyles which is something that's hard to do for most units. I don't even know what else to say, this guy is just really good. For other units that can go into the class, while they won't be nearly as good as Gerik, it's still a good option for them. It's easily the better option for Garcia for the extra Spd it provides. For Ross, for some reason Berserker has as much Spd as Hero so he should probably go for that, but Hero would be a better pick than Warrior. Blazing Sword Raven and Harken are both really strong units. Raven joins early with base stats to immediately be useful with minimal investment and is super fast, genuinely a contender for being the fastest unit in the game from a certain point of view. He shines most on HHM with his extra stats and enemies being stronger so his Spd is less superfluous, but he's not too bad on lower difficulties either. And Harken? The guy with base Str just 1 point below cap, enough Spd to double all but the fastest of enemies and almost as much Def as Hector? I think Harken is easily the strongest combat unit once he joins, bar Athos. He joins kind of late though. Binding Blade I think Heroes are still really good here too, but not quite as good. Dieck is really strong. He gets overshadowed by Rutger and for good reason, but Dieck is still really good too. He's pretty much the next best thing. He does compete with Rutger though while Gerik and Raven just don't have the same opportunity cost. Echidna is also quite good when she joins but does fall off later on. These are good units but aren't overpowering like in the other games. And Oujay isn't good but that has nothing to do with the class, he's just underleveled and has low base stats. Also 1-2 range Hand Axes are still useful here, but not nearly as important as they are in FE7 and 8. Three Houses Well, this is the only game I know of where Heroes aren't good. They're kind of really bad here actually. 5 Move in 3H is pathetic. Their stats aren't good. They have no good abilities, I mean Defiant Str isn't bad but it's not like Hunter's Volley or Fierce Iron Fist. Even if you get Defiant Str, you're better off taking it into one of those better classes to use it there. Swords just aren't as good as other weapon types in this game either. There was a general consensus that Swordmasters were at their worst iteration in 3H, and I think Heroes are even worse. Swordmasters have better stats than Heroes. And Axe skill bonus isn't worth much when Heroes are almost always better off using Swords due to Sword Faire. Maybe they should have gotten Axe Faire, but they don't. It really all comes back to that 5 Move though. That is really bad in 3H. There are 8 Move fliers with super canto, and even infantry units with much better mobility than this, like Assassin, Grappler, or WarMaster. I think Hero is really terrible in 3H. One of the worst classes in the game in my opinion.

Yeah, you're probably right. I haven't played Maniac Mode. I've heard that it makes enemies more bulky and adds more of them. If most units have a harder time killing enemies than Stefan's advantages would definitely shine more. It's a bit hard to compare between him and Guy and Joshua since they all sort of fill slightly different roles. Guy is one of your stronger units early on when most of your units can't double yet but falls off by the time your other units are leveled up and promoted. Joshua lacks 1-2 range but there are fast enemies in Sacred Stones that not a lot of units can double, especially the dogs, so Joshua has his uses throughout. Apparently people have found him useful even in LTCs so 1-2 range doesn't hurt him too badly. Stefan starts with really high base stats for his joining time, and combined with his Crit bonus and Astra give him a lot of killing power. Probably overkill power in the English version, but on Maniac Mode it could probably help out a lot. It's interesting hearing about how different the older FEs are, but also are similar they are in some ways. I haven't played anything before 6 yet. Maybe I'll get around to it at some point. I'll need to find translations to understand anything though.

Sounds like your randomizer’s got bugs. Which one are you using? I’ve used Yune and never had any issues like that with it. It’s a hack or patch of the game that randomizes certain things about the game to be different from normal. Usually a Class Randomizer is the most common form that I know of, so every character is changed into a different randomly selected class instead of what they normally start as, hence Roy as a Nomad. Other things can be randomized too.

With Crits, you need to hit first before you roll for a Crit. You roll to Hit and then if you hit you roll for a Crit. Does Astra work the same way as a Crit, only rolling after the Hit has already been confirmed? Or do you roll for Astra before the Hit and then each attack of Astra has a separate chance of hitting, missing, or critting?

Yes that’s right. How good the class is relative to other classes in that game basically. I already posted my thoughts on that in my initial post and feel that a general consensus has been reached regarding that. I just thought it would be fun to also look at how their abilities have changed throughout the games. I also wanted to calculate out which would be more likely between FE6’s higher Crit bonus or PORs Crits+Astra. Turns out they’re very similar. But yeah, even if Swordmasters in POR had a 50% Crit bonus, it wouldn’t really be enough to compete with the mounted units dominating that game. And yeah Dread Fighters might fit in better with Heroes. We can rank them twice, no reason not to. Oh I see, they get a lot of skills in Fates. I haven’t played it yet (I would love for them to make 3ds games available on Switch) but it’s always so fascinating to hear about build ideas for different units in that game. It seems really interesting. Heh. Yeah good point.

I was thinking that the POR version would be the next closest to matching the killing power of Binding Blade and RD, again, in a vacuum. Not that I actually think the class is good given how ridiculous mounted units are in that game. I already shared my thoughts outside of the vacuum in my initial post. I haven’t played Fates so they might be better there. You said they have 10% Crit. In POR they have 15% + a chance to proc Astra (might not be worth a scroll but at least Stefan starts with it), so the raw killing power seems higher, based on numbers in a vacuum, and me not knowing what skills they have in Fates. The Echoes version seems so different that it’s hard to compare. They have no bonus to Crit rate but they take half damage from magic. They’re good, but it feels a bit like apples and oranges here. And yeah I was planning on it, I’m just being really slow lol. I haven’t had time to post more in this thread until now and wanted to post more here before starting the next one. I think next up will be Mercenaries/Heroes.

So there seems to be a general consensus that Swordmasters were at their best in Binding Blade and their worst in Three Houses. I agree with that. I think the context around them influences their quality more than their actual properties, like if Swordmasters had 30% Crit bonus in FE7-8 they still wouldn't be nearly as good as they are in FE6. Still, I have to wonder why Swordmasters were directly nerfed after FE6. In FE6, Swordmasters have a 30% Crit bonus, but than in FE7-8, that bonus is reduced to 15%. It's not like having a 30% boost would have made them overpowered in FE7-8, so why the nerf? It's disappointing. 30% is much more reliable for getting kills with Crits. And they are nerfed further in some other games. Swordmasters don't even get a Crit boost in Shadow Dragon! What's up with that? They do get a 10% Hit bonus though, for whatever that's worth. I don't know about Awakening or Fates. In Path of Radiance they have a 15% bonus like in 7-8, but they can also learn Astra, which could arguably act as an extra chance to Crit, assuming you double and only need one proc from a Crit or Astra to kill. At max Skl (which isn't unreasonable at least for Stefan) it would be a 14% activation rate for Astra. Assuming the Crit is equal aside from the additional 15% in Binding Blade, this is statistically very close to the 30% bonus. Assuming 100% Hit rates, FE6's Kill Rate will always be higher than FE9's Kill Rate, but not by a lot. At Low Crit rates, neither is very reliable, and at high Crit rates, they are both very likely to kill. The biggest advantage FE6 ever has is 6.38%. With lower Hit rates, FE9 can have the advantage, though only a very small advantage, and at that point they're both less reliable. Also, none of this really matters much if units in FE9 can kill enemies without Crits. It's fun to check the math on it though. In Radiant Dawn, Swordmasters only get a 10% bonus, but Trueblades get 20%. Skl can now go much higher for a Trueblade as well, so Stefan can have up to 20% Astra rate. This makes the Kill Rate between FE6 and FE10 very close. FE6 still wins out at high Crit values but FE10 wins out at lower Crit values since it doesn't rely on Crit as much with Astra. If Stefan's Crit rate is 50% and Rutger's is 60%, then they have equal Kill Rates. So basically, having an extra chance to trigger Astra even if you don't Crit, is similar to having a higher Crit bonus. So the Tellius Swordmasters/Trueblades are just about as good as the ones in Binding Blade. But then Swordmasters get nerfed again in 3H. They only have a 10% Crit bonus here. Astra can now be triggered at will instead of being RNG dependent. So it's more reliable now right? Well too bad it got nerfed badly. In Path of Radiance, Astra attacked 5 times at 50% damage per hit for a total of 250% damage, slightly lower than a Crit. In 3H, it only deals 30% per hit, for a total of 150%, half of a Crit. I could go on about how bad this is compared to much better options in that game like Hunter's Volley or Fierce Iron Fist, or how it costs twice as much durability to use than those other Arts despite being much worse, but I really don't need to. 30% damage rounded down is just too low. And it has a Hit penalty too! Astra sucks in 3H. Swordmasters suck in 3H. It's like the developers made them bad on purpose. So I conclude that in a vacuum, Swordmasters are tied for best in Binding Blade and Radiant Dawn, then next best in Path of Radiance, and they are still worst in 3H basically.

I’ve come to accept hits and Crits at low percent so they don’t even phase me anymore and aren’t particularly memorable. I did once have an Eliwood with more Str than Hector though. He had a lot of Def too.

I can confirm what Ping said. As long as they don’t die, you’re good.

Oh hey, I didn’t see this response. I guess I forgot to follow my own thread. Anyway, nah I never triggered Gale. He never showed up. It was the same group of enemies both times just spread apart several turns. I’m thinking it is that the reinforcements go on pause if you leave the zone as that would explain my experience here, but I never realized it worked that way. I’ll test it out at some point if no one else is sure but it will probably be awhile as I’ve been playing Engage.

Hopefully the title makes sense. If I make more of these then I’ll change the title if someone suggest something better. Only games I’ve played. Basically treat this like a tentative tier list and discuss what you agree or disagree with and which games you think should move up or down. I haven’t seen this before so thought it could be interesting. The question is how good are Myrmidons / Swordmasters in each game? In which game are they the best or the worst? Some games have reclassing and some don’t so in some games this depends on the specific characters in the class while in other games any character can choose to go into the class or something completely different. This class has perhaps had one of the biggest ranges in quality throughout the series, while Paladin and Wyvern Rider have always been good, Swordmaster has sometimes been really strong and other times really weak. - Binding Blade Echoes Radiant Dawn Shadow Dragon? Sacred Stones Blazing Sword Path of Radiance Three Houses - Binding Blade of course is at top. Rutger is amazing, the class itself is really nice to have with high Skl and Spd in a game where those are important to have and a 30% Crit bonus which greatly increasing killing power in a game with tough to kill enemies. The class itself is probably at its strongest here with the highest Crit bonus of any game, but the context around it with the strong and fast enemies really make it shine. Echoes doesn’t have the same type of Swordmasters with a Crit bonus and such, but I guess we can count the Myrmidons / Dread Fighters in that game. I’m not familiar with Echoes tier lists and such but I found Dread Fighters to be really good. Sabre was always one of my best units and the others seemed pretty good too. I’m not very familiar with Radiant Dawn tiering either but I’ve heard Swordmasters can reach Spd thresholds that are hard to reach otherwise and are actually be pretty good here. The thing is, this isn’t a particularly good class in most FE games so they don’t need to be great here to be above the others. Okay now Shadow Dragon I put the ? because I really have no idea to be honest. Again most of the ones below this aren’t great so the competition isn’t very strong, and I’ve heard enemies in H5 can have really high stats, presumably including Spd, I figured they could be useful here. I haven’t played H5, I’ve only played easy mode. Sacred Stones does have some fast enemies like the dogs that Joshua can be useful for. He doesn’t take much investment and starts with pretty good base stats and is really good at doubling basically everything. Lack of a mount or 1-2 range does bring him down though. I could kind of go either way with Blazing Sword and Path of Radiance. Guy is pretty good early on. He’s super fast at a point when most of your units probably aren’t doubling yet, but enemies Spd doesn’t increase and actually kind of decreases when they start using more Steel so as your units gain some levels they become able to double most enemies and Guy’s Spd becomes overkill. The lack of 1-2 range of course again bringing him down. Path of Radiance is a game with super Canto. I can’t see a foot locked sword locked unit being good for much of anything.. unless that unit has end game level stats half way through the game. Stefen is really strong. Still though, you have enough good mounted units with 1-2 range and super Canto that Stefen just can’t do much compared to them. Guy is nice to have early on when you don’t have much yet, but by the time you get Stefan, you already have multiple strong units with more going on for them than Stefan, even if he has better stats. I honestly think Swordmasters are one of the worst classes in 3H. At least Stefan and Guy have some advantages going for them but in 3H when any character can be any class, why would you make someone a Swordmaster over much better options? Catherine is really strong but even she is probably better changing to a class that has more than 5 Move as soon as possible. And lastly, Engage. It’s too early for me to place in the list but so far I’d say probably somewhere in the middle. Certainly not super good like in Binding Blade but it seems better than it has been in a lot of games like 3H. Movement differences being reduced helps, and easy access to 1-2 range Levin Swords that never break and are good for adding damage with chain attacks. - Let’s see how this works out. I thought it could be fun and might continue this for other classes afterwards. I’m interesting in seeing what people think about how good Myrmidons / Swordmasters are throughout the series. Let me know if I’m completely wrong about some of these. And feel free to include your thoughts on games I haven’t played if you want.

I suppose what you could do is attempt a blind Ironman, not resetting for most unit deaths, but if the lord dies you keep playing it as a normal run with the ironman counted as a failure, rather than restarting the whole thing. That way you get both, you followed the rules of a strict Ironman (and failed) but still get to play the rest of the game without restarting it from the beginning.

Can I change my vote? I totally forgot that I ironmanned Shadow Dragon once (just on easy mode, not H5 or anything). Ironmans can be a lot of fun. I’ve had some good experiences with Ironmans in Binding Blade and Sacred Stones, which I think are both some of the better games for ironmanning, but there are plenty of other good ones. Engage seems to be good game for it, while 3H does not seem good for it. Playing an Ironman blind though, I don’t know if I could handle that. Familiarity with the game helps a lot with Ironmans. I respect @Alastor15243 for doing that with every game. Actually, my first Shadow Dragon run was a blind Ironman, I figured I’d be fine since it was easy mode, and I was right, but that’s the only game I’ve done a blind Ironman of.

I know that groups of reinforcements are triggered to appear if a unit ends there turn within the reinforcement zones. Maps of these zones and the groups they trigger can be conveniently found just by a simple Google search. It’s very helpful knowledge to have when playing this map and can make it a lot easier. Anyway, in my recent playthrough of this chapter, I entered the zone in the bottom right by the shrine to trigger the reinforcements. They appeared for one turn and then stopped. I waited around a couple turns for more to show up but none did. I know that more appear on HM but I was playing on NM this time so I thought maybe they only appear for one turn on NM? So I moved ny forces forward towards the shrine, and then more reinforcements appeared and killed a couple of my units. So my question is, do the reinforcements go on pause if you leave the zone, and then resume whenever you go back into the zone? Or do the reinforcements only appear every few turns? Is it different between NM and HM? Thank you in advance for the clarification.