Othin

There's no way Pascal could hide it that easily. He lacks subtlety, and the Black Fang would likely already know of his massacre; a group of assassins has to be good at getting information. By the time Nergal came to power, it's clear that he had control enough to put any psychopath into command, so there's no reason he wouldn't be able to keep Pascal there. Regarding imprisonment vs. execution, there's no reason the Black Fang would have ever had the means with which to imprison someone before, and making it happen then would not have been as easy as simply telling a subordinate to make Pascal disappear. Let it not be forgotten that despite many of their actions in the story, the Black Fang is supposed to be a group of assassins; they should be good at killing people with any subtlety needed.

It doesn't make sense for the Black Fang to simply sacrifice Jaffar like that, and the guards were away, so there would be no one to catch him. One might say that Ursula was sent for that reason, but it doesn't make sense; she didn't indicate anything of the sort in her dialogue, and her catching Jaffar wouldn't be particularly credible anyway. Most importantly, however, is the issue that there was no way she could've gotten that past Jaffar. According to her own words, the scapegoat had to be caught alive, which meant that it was either an obviuously botched plan to make Nino the scapegoat or Sonia was basically telling Jaffar to his face that he was going to be the scapegoat. It just doesn't work. Almost everything the Black Fang did in the story went very much against its original goals, meaning that Nergal had to have gained almost complete control (in about a year). Certainly, within his morphs, there should have been no division. Some ambiguity, some decently sized plot holes upon close investigation is fine. Massive ambiguity, a huge number of plot holes that tear up the entire story, leaving almost nothing left, many of which were discovered before we even started examining the story closely at all... a story can't have all that and still be a good story. No. Again: Ephidel: You're exactly right. Our plans may have gone drastically awry, but as long as we have the master's power behind us, we cannot be defeated. We'd do well to leave now, before those meddlesome worms arrive. You will leave everyone from Laus behind. We will use them to delay our foe. Darin: Everyone... My soldiers? But...who will protect me? Ephidel: The Black Fang and I will more than suffice for that task. There is nothing else you need, I assure you. Darin: Yes...I...I see that now. Where do we go from here? Ephidel: To the Dragon's Gate... Our master awaits us there. The master has informed me our hostage may be all we need. If all goes well, we may be able to perform the ceremony with him alone. Darin had no plans whatsoever to abandon his plans and go to Valor until he had already taken over Caelin. Perhaps... In any case, I've already withdrawn that argument.

They are. ...Something shown within the story, not simply stated in the ending. As for Lyn, she still whines about the pirates. No development there. By the end of their respective games, Lyon is without a doubt the one I want to kill more. I believe you'll see why when Banzai posts his FE8 analysis. As with most of Serenes, you seem to be very unfamiliar with FE8's story, and now is not the place to educate you on it. Nergal only started gaining power in the Black Fang a year before the game started. It's completely impossible that in the short time he had power, he had enough to allow Pascal into the Black Fang and even to elevate him to one of the Four Fangs (in place of who? Jaffar?), and then that Brendan would have still had enough power to take that title away from him and imprison him, but not have him killed by Legault or anyone (the Black Fang are assassins; he should have an easy way to remove Pascal without getting Nergal involved), and all that in less than a year? Because of course we haven't presented evidence to back up every one of our claims and evidence against every incorrect attempt to argue with one of those claims, and conceded the times people actually did make a legitimate argument that disproved our previous claim.

Interesting. Compelling. Dramatic. There's a reason fiction and fantasy get written: they have potential for stories that might not be able to happen in real life.

It's not just about realism. Horribly ineffective villains tend to not make for a good serious story, plausible or not.

Good catch. That explains it. Matthew: I've known you were here for some time. I also knew you were after Lord Hector, not me. You're all professional assassins. You wait for your chance, and you don't miss it. You were waiting for me to leave Lord Hector alone. That's when you were planning to attack, right? It really doesn't sound like he just noticed that soldier in the room right when he started to leave, but rather that he had noticed before that and had even managed to somehow find out what they were planning. Speaking of that soldier... Hector: Huh? ......Come out. I know you're there. Black Fang: ... Hector: Who are you? Black Fang: ... Hector: Too dumb to speak? Makes no difference to me. Move out of my way, or I'll run you through! Worst assassin ever. Also not exactly a shining moment for Hector's morality. Within reasonable limits to still allow for a good story, sure. FE7 goes pretty far past those bounds.

There's little other point in telling an opponent you're coming than to make them be ready. If he had something to say, it would be another matter. And again, Jaffar doesn't care about what he's doing; he only cares about Sonia dying. Ah, excellent find. However... Vaida: I'll not be called a dog by you, blackheart! True, we've a contract with the Black Fang, but… I am loyal to one master only! He who sits on the throne of Bern! So is it who sits on the throne or who should sit on the throne? Hector would only be alone if he tried to slip away from Matthew and was successful, neither of which seems like it would be made too much more likely to happen by Matthew telling Hector about rather vital information. The whole chapter just doesn't make any sense.

Perhaps... Killing an enemy seems like a rather odd thing to describe as stopping them being your enemy, but alright. That works. Perhaps I worded that poorly. I was the one who said that the "second in ability to none but the Four Fangs" was a mistake from the soldier he talked to as the only good explanation for his being weak, but that quote seems to indicate that it was closer to the truth. Basic speech patterns fit Jaffar, but I'd expect to see him say something like ".....", "Sonia.", "Die." or some combination of the three. "Here I come", on the other hand, focuses on Jaffar rather than Sonia, when Jaffar doesn't care about himself, and also is more along the lines of a battle cry like "Prepare yourself!", something that would be said by a knight or someone with a similar view of honor, etc., not an assassin. Huh? I don't know of anything to indicate that either of those things are true, and furthermore, they don't seem relevant. It confirms that the assassins were after Hector, which as was gone over earlier, has really no point and would mean that they somehow knew that he was going that way, which shouldn't have been possible. Perhaps more significantly, it brings up the new points that Matthew knew the assassins were there, somehow also knew that they were specifically after Hector, and yet didn't tell Hector or anyone else, even though Matthew was apparently worried about Hector enough to not want to leave him to go alone. --- Most of these (except the last one) aren't anything too significant, but they certainly don't help FE7's story being convincing. Really just anything I happened to notice while checking for the Renault boss convo.

Reading through it, it appears to just be a lot of speculation, no compelling evidence. Even if the evidence was there, it wouldn't make the supports make Kishuna interesting or relevant to anyone besides Renault, but I don't know if you're arguing that anyway. And the connection really isn't plausible anyway. Renault: ...Nergal, do you remember me? Nergal: Hah. You are... Renault. So you're still eeking out a wretched existence? Renault: I went astray. I listened to your honeyed words... I dreamt of the impossible... the return of a lost soul. But...what you gave me was... a puppet... It was soulless...nothing more than an empty vessel!! Nergal: Just an empty vessel... Isn't that what you wanted? You desired to bring back your dead friend. You were my experiment, and I completed my morph. I'm grateful, Renault. Thanks to you, I gained power. Renault: You villain... You cursed him! Your crime can never be forgiven! I will end you with my hands. In the name of my lost friend! Nergal: ...I name you Kishuna. You are the only morph to whom I've given emotions. It won't suffice simply to refer to you as a number. It is said man was sculpted by the hands of the gods. If so, then you, who were sculpted by these, my hands... And I, whose labors gave you breath and life... What are we, then? What does that make us? In your fabricated heart, which I gave unto you, what is it that you believe, Kishuna? These don't seem like they could be describing the same event - the lack of any implication to "give" Kishuna to Renault, lack of implication of Renault's current or past presence or involvement whatsoever, and strong implications that Kishuna was created from scratch explaining why Nergal would name him and consider the event so extraordinary in the first place compared to his other works, as well as the statements that Kishuna has emotions, which it appears the morph of Renault's friend did not. --- Hector: I don't expect you to understand. You've forgotten what it means to be human! Nergal! My connection to you... it's over! I'm finishing everything up right here!! What connection? Eliwood: Nergal! Nergal: So you're here, Eliwood. I thought losing Ninian might distract you. Have you forgotten her so quickly? How heartless. Eliwood: I haven't forgotten. I'll never forget. It was my mistake that killed Ninian. Because of that... I will fight. I will not run away and hide in sorrow... I'm going to put an end to all of this! So did he want Eliwood to come or not? Legault: Hello... Linus. Linus: Legault!? You... You disloyal filth! You of all people...siding with them!? Legault: Calm down. Your brother's murder... It wasn't by our hands... Hey!! Linus: Draw your sword. I won't miss again. Legault: Remember how good the old days were? Your father, old Jan, Uhai, you, and me and your brother. When did the Black Fang lose its honor? Linus: Be quiet!!! Stop your pathetic whimpering and fight!! Legault: I knew this would happen. Nothing's going to change. I knew it, and yet here I am. I couldn't leave well enough alone... I'm a fool. So Legault was important after all? Jaffar: Here I come. Sonia: Ingrate! You owe your life to Lord Nergal! You and that girl, you're nothing but filth! But it matters not, as long as your essence remains intact. No other part of you now has any value. "Here I come"? Heath: You first! Why are you working with the Black Fang? We swore to serve only House Bern... Vaida: I don't see anyone from the royal family around, do you? Well that really lends credibility to her statements of being loyal to Bern. Eliwood: ...Black Fang? Oleg: I bring an invitation from my master, Nergal. "Return the children to me." Seems foolish to deliver the message... After all, I can take them both myself and go now! Eliwood: You'll never take them!! ...Why even say that? Wire: The Ostian spy. Why did you return? Matthew: I've known you were here for some time. I also knew you were after Lord Hector, not me. You're all professional assassins. You wait for your chance, and you don't miss it. You were waiting for me to leave Lord Hector alone. That's when you were planning to attack, right? Wire: Ah... So that's why you came back, is it? I was sure you'd gone back to play with the guards. Matthew: If I had, I would've taken Lord Hector with me. No matter what it took. Wire: Cheeky fellow, aren't you? But you're out of your league. Matthew: How so? Wire: You think to challenge me? Prepare to die, you witless fool! Matthew: Ghaa... ...Seriously?

Prosecutor: Here are pages 220-225 of this 880-page report, which show that the defendant was holding his gun at the time the murder occurred, and here are pages 623-631, which show that the gun used to kill the victim was the defendant's gun. Defense Attorney: Objection! Your Honor, I read that report too, and there's a page in there that disproves all that. Clearly the prosecution hasn't read the report thoroughly enough. But I'm not going to tell you what page says it or even what the page says; that's the prosecutor's responsibility. It doesn't work that way. That said, I used Ctrl+F to check all the supports in FE7; the name "Kishuna" does not appear a single time in any of them. I then actually read each of Renault's supports, since they seemed like the most relevant, and like with the previous times I had read his supports, I found nothing to indicate that the Morph his friend was turned into was Kishuna - in fact, it does not seem plausible, based on the circumstances of Kishuna's creation shown in the flashback in Genesis and what Renault says about the matter. Now, are you interested in contributing anything to this discussion? If so, follow bottlegnomes' example; through remaining calm, rational, and nonconfrontational, and backing up his arguments with quotes from FE7, he's managed to point out and prove two oversights made by Banzai and I. If you're only intent on making me waste my time, I have more important things to spend it on.

Attacking Ostia really isn't any less sane than attacking Caelin, from his perspective, in that situation. Attacking Caelin would soon ruin him just as he would be immediately ruined if he had attacked Ostia. Either way, Ephidel would need complete control to the exclusion of reason, so there's no reason he could force him to do one and not the other.

He invaded Caelin so he could hang out there for a while on his way? Really? No other way he could do it? Also, this. Darin: Yes...I...I see that now. Where do we go from here? Ephidel: To the Dragon's Gate... Our master awaits us there. The master has informed me our hostage may be all we need. If all goes well, we may be able to perform the ceremony with him alone. Doesn't sound like Darin had any plan to go to Valor before winding up in Caelin. And it seems I can't look at a script for this game without stumbling onto more shit. Linus: We're going hunting! We'll taunt them and pull them to the center of the town. --- Igor: That's right. You have the honor of dying at the hands of the Four Fangs. Our commander is Linus, the Mad Dog. Hector: Eliwood! Is that the enemy? Eliwood: Yes. Let's meet his challenge! "Let's meet his challenge"? Really?

Perhaps... which raises the question of why they'd even have to know, or again, what the purpose is of killing the prince if not to cause chaos. Not that they were going to prevent that chaos properly anyway. Sonia: Once you've killed the prince, kill Nino, too. Jaffar: What!? Sonia: The assassinations… Both come directly by the king's request. The prince is well loved, and his death will trigger much chaos. If the assassin is not caught and hanged immediately, the chaos will engulf Bern. A scapegoat is needed. Do you understand? Read that a few times and see if you can spot the problem. Sure, let's go with that. I believe it was 2-3 end... either way, I don't even remember what's being proven by this anyway, so whatever. However, making him lead to a route split could be done. The problem here is that apparently Legault knew the previous location, the location changed, Legault was aware of the change but was not told to where, and he somehow became certain that there wasn't anything that could possibly gained from going to the old base, and he didn't even suggest that an old base existed at all. Legault: Yes. Black Fang's headquarters are here in Bern. The location was never disclosed to me, though. The Black Fang is so much different than it once was. Any information we could gain would be beneficial. That doesn't sound like he's saying he didn't find about a change in location; it sounds like he's saying he never knew any location of the headquarters. That in mind, I find that combination of things to believe with such little evidence too much of a stretch. By the time news of Lundgren's request could get somewhere, so could news of the attack on Araphen - it's not exactly an insignificant event, even if Araphen himself decided to stay silent about it for no good reason. And if news is traveling that slow, it would probably also happen that Lundgren's request would be the first time any of the other marquesses would become aware that he had suddenly taken control of Caelin, which should certainly cause them at least hesitation before jumping to his requests.

It absolutely could have been help to at least mention it, no matter how long ago it was. Who could know when and how it might come up? Certainly, it would have been a better and more interesting lead from which to start searching for information than, say, 25H. And again, Legault isn't mentioned to have been away from Bern for long at all, nor does he suggest that he once knew but the location has changed. None of that does anything to change the facts that the circumstances under which Lundgren rose to power and his attack against Araphen should have been enough to make any other Lycian lords doubt a claim from him that some girl was invading his land and that he needed their help to get rid of her. Both are things the other Lycian lords should have been aware of.

The Black Fang under Nergal's command does everything for the goal of quintessence. Quintessence, something they obtain from war. From fighting. From killing. From chaos. Nergal, as far as was ever implied, had nothing he could ever gain from controlling Bern himself other than making it wage more wars - something that could be done far more simply, many other ways. If he had other goals that drove significant parts of the story, that you spend chapters fighting over, that weren't even hinted at, that's just shitty storytelling. See above. Such a thing would need to have driven large parts of the story, and yet none of that was ever mentioned or even hinted at. That would make the story worse than any plotholes could ever make it. That doesn't sound right. Do you have a quote showing this?

Legault didn't indicate that he knew of any location their headquarters had ever been. Even mentioning a previous location would have been a good lead. It may not be clear to other Marquesses what's going on, but it should be clear that it's nothing too simple and that Lundgren was up to something. If it wasn't, that's another issue. It does seem implausible that Hausen knowing about the poison wouldn't be able to do anything about it, anyway.

Lundgren rises to power under suspicious circumstances, and the Araphen event has to put a huge dent in his credibility. NPC1 : This is terrible! The castle is burning!! Sain : What did you say? What's happening? NPC1 : Smoke! From the castle! Hey! What are those men doing? Lyn : Who are you? Assassin : You! You're Lyndis, aren't you? Lyn : Ah! What do you-- Assassin : No questions! Prepare yourself!!! Lyn : Hey! Rath : Assassin : Aaaargg! Aaaaah!! Lyn : What? An arrow? Rath : ... Lyn : Who are-- Kent : Milady Lyndis! Are you all right? Lyn : I'm fine. He... This man saved me. Kent : May I ask your name? Rath : ... Lyn : Wait! Why did you help me? Rath : I thought a Sacaean plainswoman was being attacked. I was mistaken. Lyn : No, you were right! I am from Sacae. I'm Lyn, the daughter of the Lorca chieftain. Rath : The Lorca? There were survivors? Lyn : Yes. Rath : You should leave at once. A blaze has started in the castle, and it's spreading. Don't be foolish and waste the life I just saved. Lyn : You're from the castle? What's happening? How severe is the fire? Is the marquess safe? Rath : The castle is under attack, and the marquess has been accosted. The man who attacked you was probably one of the marauders. As captain of the castle guard, it's my duty to rescue the marquess. Marquess : Now... Lady Lyndis. Do you know the identity of those responsible for this uproar? Lyn : I believe it to be the work of my granduncle, Lundgren. Marquess : That's exactly right. Whih means my castle has been damaged in your family's petty inheritance dispute. Lyn : My-My apologies... Marquess : When I heard that Lady Madelyn's daughter was in trouble, I thought to lend my assistance... I find I've changed my mind. I withdraw my offer.

Lyn came to Caelin to see her grandfather, and defended herself from soldiers attacking her. It's difficult to see how that could be seen as invading. What would more logically cause the pact to be invoked would be Lundgren attacking Marquess Araphen's castle to find Lyn, or a whole ton of actions in Ch12-17. --- Regarding the matter of Legault I was discussing with bottlegnomes: Reading the supports, Legault being feared as the Hurricane seems to be justified, and his reputation as "second in ability to none but the Four Fangs", while inaccurate, could reasonably grow out of that. It also helps to explain other matters, as Banzai noted, so we'll withdraw those arguments.

We didn't find that to be relevant. No game in the series is without its errors, but in FE7's case, those errors are especially bad. Let's see how justified it is. In Ch4, they didn't know Elincia's exact location; the generals may have been elsewhere. Shortly afterward, Petrine and the Black Knight indeed start pursuing you, and reasons are given why they do not enter combat with your troops - reasons that have already been discussed here. The Black Knight had ordered the soldiers not to pursue them, and his order to do so came from Sephiran, who didn't have any reason to want Daein to capture Elincia. See Banzai's post; seems that was one of the things he answered better than I could while I was typing this up. Because he's Valter. Like the Black Knight, he's a traitor to the enemy country and follows his own agenda. Valter: Heh heh... Stupid woman. If Grado wins too easily, there'll be no more bloodshed. We must do what we can to extend the fun... I believe it's time for me to return to my darling Eirika. It wouldn't do for Glen to arrive before me, would it? Take care of things here before I return to you. Understood? Initially, Celice was not a real threat to the Empire, who had control over every continent. There were many bigger concerns they could have plausibly had, and FE5 taking place at the time is one of them. Past that point, by the time it starts to get into Chapter 7, Celice's group quickly gets a hold of several Holy weapons, and therefore could not be defeated easily. They could even pose a threat to Julius - in Ch10, not having Awareness or a castle protecting him, he can reasonably be defeated; he wouldn't want to risk taking a crit from Aless' Mistoltin when he has other people to send, with Holy weapons of their own. Bear in mind that every chapter from 7 on in Gen 2 has at least one boss with a Holy weapon anyway. See Banzai's post. Apparently that's not how swords in video games work, a necessary mechanic to a game of this style that could not be avoided by any reasonable amount of story improvement - this, unlike the issues we discuss here, is gameplay and story segregation at its barest minimum. Because FE6 has some plot issues too, unless someone has a better explanation. Garcia hasn't fought in a long time. Exact quote? Duessel: Yes, Cormag. It's a magic weapon of dark design that's been in my family for ages. Legend states that the leader of our house must always carry it, but never use it. We are prohibited from wielding it until such a time as madness itself rules the day. It's part of my legacy, and yet...I... I made a grave error... I allowed Valter to use this lance. Specifics? We aren't doing to dig through to find the evidence you claim is there to support your side; as I said to others earlier, that's your responsibility. When we started looking at supports, the first thing we found was another plothole - an oath apparently taken by Lycian lords to defend each others' territories, which is apparently ignored in the story. The Jaffar matter requires assuming that the mission would require him to be more trustworthy than ever before, which with no evidence, as it seems to be as far as he's concerned a perfectly normal mission, is not wholly reasonably to assume. Legault thing sounds reasonable; I'll have to check. Actions speak louder than words. According to Hector, the soldier was just standing there, and there's no evidence of him doing anything else. Elincia sees battle in the end of FE9 and in Part II of FE10. Eyvel is a warrior; there's no reason she would spontaneously manifest views of not wanting to kill in a dangerous battle situation in a society with no such views. Oswin and Duessel, being knights, would also not manifest such views. Life is valued in FE, and I have yet to see anything from you to make your argument work with that in mind.

Certainly plausible, but it still doesn't make sense without some indication that that mission in particular would have some great gain to Jaffar in terms of trust or leadership or whatever else. Is that supported in the game? There's no reason why a neutral soldiers's life would be valued less than that of a civilian. And that's what the soldier was. Hector: Hey! What's going on over there? Looks like some rough business. You! Soldier! Are you just going to stand there and watch? Soldier: Who do you think you are? This is Santaruz. What occurs here is no affair of any foreign lordling! Hector: I believe I'm going to have to disagree with you. You see, the man they're attacking happens to be a friend of mine. Soldier: A friend? What? ...Urrrgh!! No indication of the soldier doing anything to obstruct him, just standing there. He was displayed red in the game, but there is nothing in the story to justify that classification, just that Hector would look less awful that way to people not paying more attention. Besides, Eyvel, Duessel, and Elincia all refer at least partially to soldiers dying, and to say that Eyvel's quote is simply for gameplay reasons is just unreasonable. In one line, Eyvel shows the horrors of the war in Thracia at an entirely new level, while encouraging her allies to make the sacrifice of taking additional risk in combat for the sake of people being forced to fight them, establishing them even more solidly as heroes in the hell Thracia had become. It also introduced the capture system, and that may have been why the line existed, but it is not the only purpose it serves, and it would never exist in a setting like the one you describe. I'm sure I could dig up more quotes referring specifically to enemy soldiers, but I would think this is enough, especially with the previously established matter that the soldier was not an enemy. Even if Brammimond had a role wholly or partially in making the seals, it is not necessarily shown that he could feasibly make new seals a second time, a thousand years later, with things being so different.

Is it stated that the seals could be reactivated? I wouldn't assume that they could. I'm not talking about persuading Brammimond; I'm talking about killing Nergal. Fair point. Casting time of a warp spell is not shown to be an issue; Ephidel warps away just as Lyn runs up to stab him. And if Nergal started to flee or hide somewhere else, it would mean that Athos would have him on the run and could continue pursuing him. Wouldn't leave Nergal able to do much of anything. They're at one point stated to be assassins for hire. The rest of the time, they're indicated to be a group formerly fighting against corrupt nobles in Bern which Nergal manipulated to serve his goals. Neither one of those things is really compatible with "assassins for hire". People working hard towards a goal don't just take jobs for money on the side when all that does is keep them from focusing on the goal and not advance it. As for the chaos, they planned to kill Nino, which was a measure to prevent chaos resulting from the assassination. It likely would not prevent all of it, but there's no reason for them to even try preventing any.

Reaching Nergal wasn't an issue. Athos simply warped himself to the Dragon's Gate, and could have done it for Eliwood's team. Lilina: "No, don't worry. Only those of Roland's blood know how to remove the Durandal from its altar." With apparently unlimited warping, it doesn't seem like it could have been difficult to warp to Nergal, kill him, and warp out.

I indeed read those. I didn't think much of the matter of Jaffar's reasoning, as as you said, your original statements were rather flimsy. What you bring up now about trust being a factor makes it more plausible, although it's still not clear - unless I'm mistaken, the only time people trusting Jaffar is brought up as an issue is when Sonia distrusted him on the Zephiel mission enough to send Ursula, and Jaffar clearly couldn't have known that he was going to be followed. So it's not indicated that Jaffar knew about or was concerned about the extent to which other Black Fang members trusted him. It's plausible that he was talking about gaining trust, but it's also not clear that he would think of that mission as showing any more trust than his many other missions. As for Legault, you're referring to when he says he killed people in their sleep, right? It's difficult to imagine him picking up such a great reputation just for that in a place like the Black Fang, but at least in this case, the issue really was addressed directly, so... I don't know. Was there anything else you had to say about this? Regarding Hector's sociopathy, is this about the statements regarding morals in the Middle Ages? I was actually planning on getting back to that. The thing to keep in mind is that while the setting of the FE series is based in many ways on the Middle Ages, the Middle Ages are not simply the setting. Lang: If you want to know, I am going to slaughter the families of the rebels. Then we will burn down any villages that harboured the rebels. That will stop them from contemplating rebellion again. Hahaha! I can almost see the tears on the faces of those fools. Marth: What?! How can you be so cruel... Sigurd: Huh? I don't follow. What're you so angry about? Levin: Try putting yourself into these people's shoes for a second! They're just tryin' to make a livin' here. Then you show up, flashin' your shiny swords around... Sigurd: Hmm... I see your point. Geez, I feel awful about the Agustrian people. Levin: Well, talk is cheap. If you really feel so bad, why don't you pack up and leave? Sigurd: Alright then. Look, I'll go consult with my people. Levin: W, w, whoa! You serious about pullin' out!? Sigurd: Yeah, I've been tossing the idea around myself, and you just helped me make up my mind. I'm through fighting. I've got to try and settle this with King Shagaal peacefully. Levin: Ah... that'd be a complete and utter waste of your time. He wouldn't listen to you. And if Grandbell pulls out now, all the citizens who helped you guys out'll be tossed in jail! Doesn't that bother you? Sigurd: Well, um... of course it does! But... didn't I, er... Eyvel: Yes. But be careful. Although they are Imperial troops, the lower-ranking ones are civilians forced into the army. If you can, don't kill them, take their weapons and let them escape. Understood? Eliwood: I... I've no love for war. If I concentrate on the foe before me, I'm fine. If I picture families, innocents caught up in our foolish politics? If I imagine them... All I can do is pray for a way to solve things peacefully. Duessel: Your Majesty, you know that I will gladly lay down my life for an honorable cause! But these orders--and all of our recent actions--they are not just! If I saw in any way in which this invasion protected Grado, I would hold my tongue. But now, Renais is left ungoverned to drown in chaos, and we gain nothing! Why do you wage this war? What is it you hope to achieve? You've sent our men to fight and die for nothing! This isn't war--it's murder! Elincia ...Lord Ludveck, all your dissatisfaction and misgivings about me are well founded. However, do you realize how many lives you've simply thrown away?! Strength without compassion does not a ruler make. You care nothing for the people, sir. You cloak your desire to rule with pretty speeches, but it is petty avarice nonetheless! Life is valued in FE.

False. I said his reason for not warping him there was valid, and gave reasons why. I wasn't doubting the points you had already made, although I realize now that the wording of my post may have been poor such to imply that. I was under the impression that you were saying there were more statements in the game to back up what Athos said but simply telling me to find them for myself, but reading your post again, it looks like I had misread. Now, see, the Brammimond thing does change things, as that is indeed evidence of a need for them to prove something - to him. As far as I can see, that does justify Athos' actions, and with that in mind, I withdraw my arguments on the subject.

No need to escalate things. I already responded to those quotes. Indeed, it addresses the matter, but what I am saying is that those quotes alone are not enough to sufficiently address the matter, with Athos bringing up things that had not been shown to be an issue in the first place, and again, it does nothing to address why he could not have given them directions and allowed them to talk there themselves, either. This is pretty much the exact same post I made the last time those quotes were brought up. If anyone has anything new to add about why the quotes were accurate or why Athos could not have given them directions, I'd be interested to hear it, and in that case, we can discuss this further and gain more insight into FE7's story. If everyone is going to just continue pointing back to the quotes and asserting that they have to justify it just because Athos says they do, I'm done with this matter.