Progenitus
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i posted this in one of the other topics on this board, but that topic had absolutely no life. Instead I'll try to make a separate topic and see if it generates any discussion.
reposting what I had there to start it off.
Turns are overrated. 1 turn in a short, easy chapter like FE10 1-P is not the same as 1 turn in a longer, more difficult chapter like 4-4.
I don't remember who said this, but someone suggested # of actions or decisions to determine the weight of a chapter (although there is no formula, and deriving one will be difficult, particularly because everyone plays the game differently and thus will require different amounts of decisions to beat a given map, it's just the idea that should be incorporated). For example, if I need to make 5 decisions to beat 1-P (with a decision being where to place each unit, what attacks should be made, whether to heal or not, any trade or rescue chains I need, etc), but I need 50 to beat 4-4, obviously each decision becomes more critical in 4-4 as the chapter goes on, and most importantly, a screwup in 4-4 means that I might have to restart, meaning I have to do all of those decisions again, which is a waste of time.
Again, it doesn't really matter if Joe takes 5 decisions to beat 1-P and 50 to beat 4-4, but Bob takes 10 and 100, or if George takes 10 and 30, or if Dave takes 3 and 20, the bottom line is that 4-4 almost always requires more decisions than 1-P and thus should hold more weight (it would be extremely rare to see a player, say, take 10 decisions to beat 1-P but only 5 to beat 4-4). I don't have any suggestion for this magical formula to determine how much more important 4-4 is than 1-P especially when every person plays the game differently, but that's just part of debating; trying to see which subjective factors matter more.
while on the subject of tiering philosphy, I also had a hypothetical in another topic, posted in one that was quite lively, yet the moment I posted the hypothetical the topic died down (even after bumping the topic, it still had no action). I might as well post it here as well.
Let's say we are arguing about two bad units. Let's say Kyza vs Lethe. Now we are arguing their part 3 performance, namely how many kills they can get. Let's also assume we are actively training 6 other units (so 7 units, since we are arguing who does better in this 7th slot on the team) with the remaining slots going to healers/clean up duty/shoving/etc. Now let's assume there are 40 kills in the map, but we've determined that healers/clean up duty/etc. kill 5 enemies total, so that is 35 kills for the other 7 units.
I have a question. When determining how many kills Kyza/Lethe get, which method do you assume happens? If you'd like, you can "amend" the method to how you truly determine their kill count, or if you use neither method then please explain how you do determine their kill count.
Method 1) How many kills they can get based on their ability to fight/move/etc relative to the team. For exmaple, since Kyza/Lethe are really bad at fighting while the other 6 units I assume are much more competent, he/she may only get, say, 2 kills without slowing the team down. Someone like Ike is amazing so he gets like 10 kills without even trying. etc.
Method 2) Splitting the kills evenly among the team regardless of ability. So even if Kyza/Lethe are really bad, he/she will still get 1/7th of the kills (in this case, 5). We may or may not restrain Ike from getting some of his 10 kills, but that isn't as important.
Wow, I'm very surprised that even on something as controversial as turn counts, there has not been a single response in an entire week. serenesforest sure has changed.
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i'm still not satisfied with these cards, but it's been a long time since i've updated so i'm going to throw these out and get feedback
the other five color pairs will be focused around the manly creatures, and I would appreciate ideas for names and abilities for each (the remaining pairs are UB, BR, BG, RW, and RG, although it's entirely possible to change one of the female ones to accomodate for a better manly one)
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we all are capable of babying meg and fiona until they are capable fighters. The big question is, why bother? Yes, IS probably put them in (intentionally or unintentionally) so players can train them as a challenge. But that doesn't change the fact that they're bad units.
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micaiah should have had her speed and res growths and caps swapped
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I don't have a problem with HP being weak when compared to toher stats, point for point.
but IS doesn't know how to balance PC stats and half the time they just give everyone similar stat totals without realizing that not every stat is worth the same (well, along with the fact that they don't consider movement/availability/etc either). I know this is very common in FE10, but it appears to be common in FE8 and 9 as well. It's been awhile since I checked FE11 stats and I have not played Fe12 or 13, but I would bet those three follow the same pattern.
edit: I just did a very quick check on base growths for all FE13 characters (minus the children). The average base growth is 300 with a stdev of 25, and there are only 3 units out of 35 characters beyond 1 stdev away, and if you erase those characters then the average drops to 294 with only a 15 stdev. So it does appear to be the case for this game too, in terms of keeping the majority of the characters within a similar stat total, presumably at equal levels. As for the actual balance among the characters I obviously can't say since I haven't played the game.
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this hand of mine glows with an awesome power
its burning grip tells me to-
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5 seconds
swag
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i had a topic about skl (along with HP/lck/res), so anything i could post here right now, i've already said in that topic
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/932999-fire-emblem-radiant-dawn/58197164
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Turns are overrated. 1 turn in a short, easy chapter like FE10 1-P is not the same as 1 turn in a longer, more difficult chapter like 4-4.
I don't remember who said this, but someone suggested # of actions or decisions to determine the weight of a chapter (although there is no formula, and deriving one will be difficult, particularly because everyone plays the game differently and thus will require different amounts of decisions to beat a given map, it's just the idea that should be incorporated). For example, if I need to make 5 decisions to beat 1-P (with a decision being where to place each unit, what attacks should be made, whether to heal or not, any trade or rescue chains I need, etc), but I need 50 to beat 4-4, obviously each decision becomes more critical in 4-4 as the chapter goes on, and most importantly, a screwup in 4-4 means that I might have to restart, meaning I have to do all of those decisions again, which is a waste of time.
Again, it doesn't really matter if Joe takes 5 decisions to beat 1-P and 50 to beat 4-4, but Bob takes 10 and 100, or if George takes 10 and 30, or if Dave takes 3 and 20, the bottom line is that 4-4 almost always requires more decisions than 1-P and thus should hold more weight (it would be extremely rare to see a player, say, take 10 decisions to beat 1-P but only 5 to beat 4-4). I don't have any suggestion for this magical formula to determine how much more important 4-4 is than 1-P especially when every person plays the game differently, but that's just part of debating; trying to see which subjective factors matter more.
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Thanks, you guys. I was gonna start a new playthrough, and I was wondering who the best people would be.
tier lists aren't usually what you want when making a playthrough unless you know the reasoning behind all the units' placements, especially in a game like this where units have very weird availability. for example, the tier list here puts caineghis/giffca in mid tier, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't use them when they're available.
sothe in high tiers doesn't convey the information of how bad he is in parts 3 and 4 (especially 4).
mordecai in midish tier doesn't explain that he needs resolve (or even just wrath) to not be disappointing offensively, or how to safely get him to the required HP.
Kieran and Geof in midish tiers doesn't explain that they are the best units in 2-3 and 3-9 and should not be used afterwards.
etc
what you really want to look for are character rankings that go more indepth on characters. you should probably read a couple different guides because people have different opinions and look for different things in characters, then try to make your own judgment.
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sorry for the delay, I had another writer's block
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i cant believe my topics arent popular
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i don't like kyon's card, i need to come up wiht a better idea, but until then
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k so basically you just rate debaters on a scale from 1-10 in terms of how accurate/logically consistent their arguments are and include whatever other factors I guess.
Note that I may not be able to create the new poll everyday, so someone can tally the votes and start the next topic or something.
Previous results
Day 1 - Interceptor402 - 3 votes - 6.67/10
k, so narga. he obviously knows what he's talking about since everytime he debates posts they are long and well thought out. I believe fox has also referred to narga as "the best of us" at debating. But he's no interceptor, so 9.5/10
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only 3 votes so far
come on people
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k so basically you just rate debaters on a scale from 1-10 in terms of how accurate/logically consistent their arguments are and include whatever other factors I guess.
Note that I may not be able to create the new poll everyday, so someone can tally the votes and start the next topic or something.
so obviously week 1 starts off with the greatest debater of all time, interceptor. He's never lost an argument. That alone is 10/10
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While it is true Nephenee ends up above-average after being trained, I think you're not considering the effort you have to put into her before she reaches that level. Yes, once she's caught up, her bases catch up to Shinon's. But to have Nephenee, a lvl 1 unit from 2-1 catch up with a Sniper with amazing raw stats...that'll take a while. Not to mention as to when it comes to costs and how it could affect the team and it's resources.
Certainly, some stats Neph never catches up to (namely HP and skl), but others she catches up quickly and eventually passes. She matches Shinon’s base spd by ~20/7, already has the same base res, matches shinon’s base lck by ~20/8. She also has higher lck/res growths and ties spd growth. Then by the end of part 3, the str/def gap between the two shouldn’t exceed 2 points or so, especially if you BEXP Neph, since she caps skl/spd/lck by 20/12 and that leaves str/def tied as her 3rd highest growhts.
You'd have to give Nephenee most of Part 2's BEXP so she could just lift a Steel Greatlance to double (with meh Str, meaning meh damage anyway) and by the time she reaches the GMs, she'll be just about average. That's BEXP I could invest on Haar for an early promotion (not now, but earlier in Part 3, possibly saving a Crown for somebody else). While Shinon has no 1-range, you can't say much about Nephenee either. Nephenee's Part 3 is mostly getting kills for self-improvement, and her offense is pretty meh even if she does have 1-range. And so is her defence, and it doesn't help that she isn't a dodge tank until she grows on that Spd/Str (for heavier lances) and/or works on those supports.Why does she need to use a steel greatlance? Maybe in 2-1 where it’s her only weapon (unless you visit the house with a javelin); however, in 2-P you can trade Marcia’s steel lance to Nealuchi or Leanne so they ferry it over to 2-2, which you can move over to Neph (and then Marcia buys new weapons in 2-3).
Neph being able to competently 1-range means that you can expose her to enemies and she will deal damage (at least more than crossbow shinon) in return. Yes, she has less durability, but as long as she doesn’t die, you can heal up that damage. Durability only matters if you can’t survive the attacks, but Neph can take 2-3 hits and be alive, and that’s assuming she doesn’t dodge anything. In return, you get Neph who can deal damage back to those enemies, which is better than Shinon not doing any in return (or does less with his crossbow).
Why is her offense “meh”? Why is she “average?” Why does this “self-improvement” supposed to matter? Why does the fact that some GMs are superior to Neph matter? This is Neph vs Shinon, not Neph vs the entire GM cast. Saying she’s “average” doesn’t prove Shinon is better than her.
Shinon's great 2-range compensates for his lack of Enemy Phase. He is able to 1RKO most enemies (only missing on Generals and Swordmasters later on) with a Killer Bow (you should be transfering the one from 2-3 to the GMs), a forge or Silencer (which gets him to 1RKO and 2HKO most enemies consistently).It’s worth noting that Shinon’s 2HKOs are actually borderline on halbs. For example, a halb in 3-4 has ~38 HP/19 def, which means Shinon with silencer needs to be ~20/15-16 to borderline 2HKO. In 3-8 halbs sport about 40 HP/21 def, which means you need 41 att to 2HKO. Shinon needs to be 20/18 with a +2 att support to scrape the 2HKO. Sure, Neph isn’t close to 2HKOing without a crit/adept/etc., but if Shinon doesn’t one round these halbs (he’s str screwed, his att supporter isn’t in range or you couldn’t give him an att support, etc) then it doesn’t really matter if Shinon leaves them at 2 HP while Neph leaves them at 10; they both require another unit to finish it off. This chance does exist, and when it happens, this is a fairly common enemy type that Shinon loses his offense lead on and must rely on crits for, which Neph can do the same.
In addition, Silencer is not a cheap weapon. It’s 160 gold per use. Neph could get a max mt AND crit forge and that would still be 144 gold per use. If Shinon gets silencer, Neph can get this forge with no problems (and if you say gold isn’t a problem, then you can afford this forge anyway). Low 30s crit vs enemies with mid-teens ceva, giving Neph about 25-30% chance to instantly kill the enemy on a double, which isn’t too shabby.
In any case, his 2HKOs are cleaner on warriors and snipers. However his offense lead doesn’t really matter against SMs, as neither double and Neph is probably capable of 2HKOing anyway. Neither against sages, as they both one round them on player phase, and Neph’s ability to one round them back with forged javelin on enemy phase actually gives her the edge there. Neph’s crit with the steel lance forge listed above also gives her some chance to instantly kill the enemy anyway too, cutting further into Shinon’s offense lead. Paladins are also a common enemy type in certain maps (3-2, 3-10, and 3-11 come to mind), and Neph has a horseslayer as an option.
Even if you assume that Shinon will typically require 1 less round to kill most enemy types, because his enemy phase is bad, he only really gets 1 attack per turn anyway. Neph, due to her superior enemy phase action, can spread her attacks over both phases to get the job done anyway.
For example, if there is a random enemy, and assuming Shinon one rounds it while Neph 2 rounds, Shinon kills it on player phase. Neph attacks it on player phase, enemy reattacks Neph on enemy phase and it dies. Or alternately, enemy attacks on enemy phase first. Shinon does no damage while Neph does, then on player phase they both finish it off. In both scenarios they take the same amount of time to kill the same enemy, despite Shinon having more offense.
This difference becomes more pronounced as there are more enemies. If there are 2 enemies, then Shinon kills 1 and leaves the other at full HP over both enemy and player phase, while Neph utilizing both phases can kill 1 and deal 50+% damage to the other. In this case Neph has actually done more damage than Shinon.
Again, this also becomes a better situation for Neph if we introduce resources. Neph can take adept to get better offense. Shinon can do the same, but again, killing only 1 enemy per turn, since crossbow Shinon doesn’t 3HKO anything except sages and SMs, and you can’t forge crossbows anyway. Neph can take dracoshields or support Ike for better durability and counter extra enemies on enemy phase without dying. Again, SHinon can do the same, but since his 1-range is forever bad (until double bow anyway), exposing him to attacks is not a good idea anyway. If we use a smaller team, that’s kills and BEXP and such concentrated into fewer units, increasing Neph’s stats and her ability to kill stuff and not die. Again, Shinon has almost no benefit from this.
Part 3's chapters aren't Rout-heavy routes like in Part 4, and enemies are rather scarce.If anything, this actually hurts your case. Part 4 is when Neph catches up to Shinon’s stats, which means Neph’s ability to do stuff on enemy phase far exceeds Shinon’s minor stat leads when he’s attacking 1 enemy per turn. If enemies are rather scarce in part 3 compared to part 4, then I would give more weight to part 4 than part 3. After all, more enemies to kill = more important to have competent fighters to kill them. On player phase, you are only attacking one enemy, but on enemy phase, you could face multiple enemies. This means more work has to be done on enemy phase, where Neph has the clear lead over SHinon.
And don't worry about "needing to wall shinon for what he doesn't kill", he doesn't need it. He's, ironically, one of the tankiest GMs units forever and outtanks Nephenee forever even if he won't needed (assuming that aforementioned hypothetical case happens)Sure, Shinon doesn’t really die. But because he doesn’t counter at 1-range (unless he crossbows, which has terrible mt), he doesn’t do damage to enemies on enemy phase. This means letting Shinon get attacked here makes you waste time, so you have to “wall” Shinon anyway.
As said before, while Nephenee may be above-average for the rest of Part 4, she isn't really contributing very much throughout Part 3. She's out-performed by Ike, Titania, Oscar, Mia, HAAR, the Hawks and Shinon.This is quite the padded list as most of these units also outperform Shinon anyway. Also as I said earlier in this post, it doesn’t matter if someone like Ike is better than Neph; this is Neph vs Shinon, not Neph vs the other GMs.
Rather have someone that kills consistently throughout Part 3 than having an average unit (like Boyd) go through a process of self-improvement throughout Part 3 only to really shine in Part 4- And even then, she still has some trouble 1RKO'ing without Impale activations, and Shinon isn't doing too bad himself either at the Greil route.If Neph has problems 1rounding in part 4 without a crit, Shinon, who by that point has maybe 2ish more att, will likely run into the same problems. Only again, no enemy phase.
The difference is that we have more skills to distribute, more stat boosters, and more gold to make better forges, etc, moreso than what existed in part 3. This makes it even easier to bring up Neph’s stats in whatever area she lacks. Shinon’s bad 1-range, however, can’t be fixed properly until the double bow shows up.
To reiterate all the points above, there are some enemy types where there is almost no offense lead (SMs and sages). There is a common enemy type where Shinon may not 2HKO anyway (halbs). We then have Neph with her super forge (again, slightly cheaper than silencer) having some crit to mitigate the offense against the rest of the enemy types. We then add in the fact that Neph can simply deal the extra attacks on enemy phase to kill them in the same time frame as Shinon, which he has more trouble doing because his 1-range is poor and is basically impossible to fix. That already looks even to me, and then when coupled with the fact that resources do exist and Neph has the option to take them (while these same resources don’t do a whole lot for Shinon) and turn her 2RKOs into 1RKOs, it makes Neph look better.
And this is only part 3. By part 4 Neph catches up to Shinon’s stats anyway, then possible resources push her over (which there are even more of in part 4 than part 3), while Shinon still has poor 1-range until the double bow in 4-E. Then by your own admission, part 4 maps have more enemies than part 3 in addition to the fact that part 4 maps are typically routs, meaning Neph’s ability to do stuff on enemy phase becomes huge, as each unit has to do more work on enemy phase ot clear out these enemies, which Shinon can’t do in a timely matter.
As for the durability lead Shinon has, again, his bad 1-range means exposing him to attacks wastes time as he does poor (or no) damage in return. Neph is less durable, but as long as she doesn’t die, you can heal up the damage, and she can take 2-3 hits before avoid is considered anyway (and more hits in part 4, since her HP/def increases faster than the enemies’ att).
I will admit that Shinon with the double bow in 4-E wins. However, 4-E is fairly short in the first place, and Neph with the wishblade that shows up in 4-E-3 is very competent in her own right. Considering Neph has a pretty clear win in the other part 4 maps, and is still probably better in part 3 (and at worst looks quite equal), Neph is still the better unit overall.
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I initially had these as auras, but having them die to enchantment destruction... idk.
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The most important characteristics regarding Sothe and Volug are their Part 1 performance, as it makes up the lion share of their contributions.
I disagree. While 1-5 to 1-E does make up roughly half of their availability, the differences between the durability + 2 move vs 1-2 range are nowhere near the differences that are seen outside of those maps. By your post, you say that Sothe wins 1-5 (slightly), 1-6, and 1-8, while Volug wins 1-7 and 1-E, which, assuming that is true, already shows not a huge difference. My post is already quite long as is, so if you want to press this issue, I can answer it in my next post.
For now, I will say that you are overestimating the Micaiah support. If Sothe wants to be blitzing maps at the same speed as Volug (or just blitzing it at all), there is no way a 5 move unit that gets one rounded by everything will be keeping up with a 7 move unit waltzing into a group of enemies. You would need to give Sothe savior if you wanted the bonuses, but then Micaiah can't thanibomb anything anymore and he'll have no room for other skills, so Volug can just take renewal or whatever skill is open. Certainly, the support will be in effect for 3-6 and 3-12 as those are turtly maps (it'll probably never happen in 3-13 since miccy has to stay at the top), but Volug will have his own support up by then, with superior bonuses (wtfearth > jokewind). And I suppose 1-5 as that map isn't particularly large, but meh, Sothe doesn't really need the bonuses there anyway.
On a side note, your bonuses for the Micaiah support are wrong >_>. Dark x Wind is 2 att, 8 hit, 15 avo.
I'm also answering things a bit out of order. I'll first go over part 3 and part 4 performances, where Volug has clean wins over Sothe. I'll later get to Sothe's advantages.
15 Volug C Zihark: 49 HP, 40 atk (65 Beastfoe vs beasts), 127 hit, 28 AS, 12 crit, 84 avoid, 18 def--/6 Sothe A Micaiah: 43.5 HP, 22 AS, 78 avoid, 17 def
w/Beastkiller: 32 atk (50 vs beasts), 139 hit, 36 crit
w/Steel Knife forge: 30 atk, 134 hit, 16 crit
Now first off, let's compare durability. Sothe's 43 HP/17 def is enough to survive any combination of a tiger and cat and if he stands on a thicket, he's 3HKO'd by 39 atk tigers. Keep in mind he has the option to break off his support with Micaiah and support with Jill or Aran or somebody like that and doesn't need the thicket then. Against the 29-31 atk cats he's 4HKO'd.
For starters, Sothe's HP cap is 40 in 2nd tier. So a robe is kinda a waste on him because he has 35 base HP, and will probably have ~37 by part 3 anyway. Regardless, what this means is that many of your calculations are off. For example, you said that Sothe can escape those 39 att tigers 2HKO by the skin of his teeth, but since his max HP is 40, he will not. also keep in mind that Sothe's def cap is 20 (and he only reaches 17.8 at 20/20 without BEXP abuse or shield), so he would need to be at max HP AND max def just to BARELY survive 2 of those 39 att tiger hits. And there are a couple of 41 att tigers, so if those show up, Sothe is SOL.
Volug at base level easily survives 2 tiger hits. Hell, two 41 att tigers won't kill base Volug.
If you want to hand out stat boosters, Volug loves them too. Unlike Sothe, his HP cap doesn't suck so he gets the full bonuses out of a robe, and a single shield gives him +4 def. Give him both, and suddenly base level Volug has 56 HP/22 def. Now cats shouldn't even bother attacking him anymore (they like 8 round him or something hilariously bad), and he's 4HKO'd by tigers, compared to robe'd and shield'd sothe 4HKO'd by cats and 2HKO'd by tigers. Keep in mind that with stat boosters out of the picture, base Volug is still 5HKO'd by cats and 3HKO'd by tigers, while Sothe is 3HKO'd and 2HKO'd respectively.
I also highly disagree with Volug only having a C support for 3-6, but it doesn't really matter for him because he's winning durability anyway, so I'm not going to bother arguing about that for now. I mean, you can give Sothe any support you want, but Volug with B support matches Sothe's bonuses with A support.
Now you may say "Well I made the comparison fair because I gave volug an energy drop already." But the thing is, Volug doesn't even need the drop. 25 att for part 1 is, for the most part, perfectly acceptable (although I get him S-strike sometime during 1-8, so depending on how fast you blitz maps he may not have that at that point, and may need the drop there). In part 3, full bonuses with S-strike, base level volug one rounds cats and 2 rounds tigers (I think he 3HKOs, or is close to it). I suppose he might want a drop for part 4, but at that point Sothe isn't coming close to one rounding anything except sages/bishops, so the fact that Volug has reasonable potential to one round in part 4 is a win for him there anyway.
And Sothe's offense isn't really any better; one roudns tigers and 2 rounds cats (he needs to be ~20/14 to double them, which is roughly what his level is leaving part 3, not entering 3-6 or 3-13). Volug doesn't really need the energy drop, although you can if you want to. IF you're concerned about his part 4 offense, give him one. Or maybe give him a drop later in the game. If not, then don't. He could take the robe/shield instead if that's what you want. Or you don't even need to give him anything. let someone like Jill take them all instead, or cart them to the GMs, or whatever. Volug's bases are already ridiculous; the stat boosters are just there in case you need to buff Volug up more if your playstyle requires it.
I also find it interesting that you gave Volug beastfoe. I mean, he doesn't really need it, and I've never given it to him, but it is funny to see how badly he destroys everything with it.
Speaking of which, Sothe with beastkiller can run into hit issues. Volug's base hit is 151 (I don't know how you got only 127), while Sothe at your given level has 139. Cats have 45-50ish avo while tigers have 40ish, so Sothe can have problems if the enemies are in a thicket and/or bio problems, and he definitely can run into problems in 3-13 because of ike's authority stars even if Sothe caps his skl. It's not like 80ish displayed hit is bad, but Volug is more immune to bio problems, and considering Volug is still winning liek everything else, this is salt on the wound.
Also on the subject of offense, 3-12 is definitely in Volug's favor, because beastkiller doesn't do anything here. Let's put it this way. Sothe at max str, Micaiah support, and a silver dagger (which I don't even know if it's buyable at that point) has 36 att. base level Volug with S-strike and no other att boosts has 36 att. Volug is also faster, which means those 20 AS warriors/halbs/snipers Sothe could actually get spd screwed and not double them, and the FKs have 22 so Sothe is probbaly not doubling them, while base Volug has 26 so the only things he's concerned with are the SMs who have 24. If you want to give Volug the energy drop, he's also 2HKOing those halbs/warriors/snipers (and the generals are left with like 10 HP or something).
See a pattern here? Sothe at max HP/def loses to base Volug. Sothe with max att and using a weapon that may not even exist matches base Volug with only s-strike in 3-12 and still loses AS (he's still slightly behind in the laguz map because hit). Sothe with any support he wants matches the bonuses volug at 1 support level lower gets. Sothe, at his absolute best, loses to base Volug with just s-strike. And it's not like Volug can't use resources; giving him stat boosters just makes him even more ridiculous, beyond what Sothe can touch.
Also to note that this continues to be the case in part 4, although it's not as bad for Sothe. His max att with baselard and Miccy support is 48, which Volug with SS-strike matches at level 29 (and is far from his str cap too). His max 50 HP/26 def is worse than what Volug can reasonably get. He doesn't even beat Volug's spd until the latter caps, but 36 spd cap is fine. Volug's supports should definitely be done by part 4, and so he wins avo decisively as well. Again, Sothe is very, very far behind in terms of stats.
Now while this looks like a resounding win for Volug, it actually isn't. First off, Volug needs to spend 2 turns using Olivi Grass (or 1 turn if you grass him and then expose him to exactly one cat. This means that Volug needs time to get going to rock and roll, whereas Sothe does so from the start.The first 2 turns typically have the least amount of action anyway as the enemies need to walk towards you, and you even have NPCs to buy you time anyway.
In addition, Sothe's inability to ORKO can actually be a blessing in disguise on ocassion since it means he makes it easier to weaken stuff to feed Jill kills too, which is an important priority on this map.Why are we assuming Jill is always fielded to the point that this happens often?
Why is it important to feed Jill kills? Can I feed them to any other unit on the team? Can I just not feed kills to some unit instead and have Volug just solo the map? Feeding kills and not killing things is kinda counterintuitive to what we're arguing about, which is going faster through the game. Plus, Volug has the durability to take extra attacks in case he kills extra enemies anyway.
Sothe can also take partial credit for Volug's performance as well because Sothe was the one who got Volug Beastfoe in the first place. In addition, Sothe does not need Beastfoe at all to ORKO stuff whereas Volug does. Finally Sothe has the capacity to equip Renewal for an extra durability boost or Adept/Wrath for extra offense should you desire it. Overall, I'd actually have to give Sothe the win here.Volug doesn't even need beastfoe. As I said earlier, base level with S-strike, he one rounds cats and 2 rounds tigers. This is on par with beastkiller Sothe, who one rounds tigers and 2 rounds cats. And Volug even has better hit.
Finding beastfoe is nice, but it's not like it's impossible to find it without Sothe. It mostly means you don't sit on the beastfoe tile in 1-4 for a minute spamming end turn with some random dude to pick it up.
Now for 3-12, 3-13, and 4-P, I have to give Volug the win thanks to his durability and offense lead as well as his ability to be an Ike killer, though his win is 4-P is very minor (Jill and Haar do most of the heavy lifting and Sothe and Volug are tied on offense anyway).Again, why are we assuming that specific units are being fielded? What if Jill and/or Haar are not fielded, or they got RNG screwed and cannot do this heavy lifting? What if we want to use Jill and/or Haar for other teams instead for whatever reason?
And how exactly are Sothe and Volug tied in offense? Volug has like 5 more att and has absolutely no problems doubling loladins (Sothe has to worry about spd screwage). If you give him an energy drop he can probably 2HKO loladins with just S-strike (and if he has SS-strike, he probabbly doesn't even need the drop). Volug also wins durability too because his support should be finished.
In 4-4, the comparison becomes trickier. Sothe is forced and can find desert items. Volug has better mobility and offense. If Volug has SS stirke, he is golden since he has high move and can ORKO most enemy types.You can send Heather here if you really want to (vika and tormod can chest key in 4-4).
Being forced doesn't really matter as you have tons of slots open anyway.
It is definitely possible for Volug to get SS strike (in fact, I usually get it earlier. I think sometimes I can even get it during 3-13), so yeah, he's actually pretty baller. 9 move vs 3 move here, and his liek mid 40s att can one round most fo the halbs/warriors/snipers (although he might need an energy drop depending on his level, not really sure). And again, durability.
(I was also going to say that Volug's mastery is better if you can get him to level 30, but apparently all masteries are *stat*/2% according to this site. When did that happen and is it confirmed? I thought, at least, the laguz masteries were just *stat*%.)
Also not listed here is the fact that Volug can go with whatever team needed. Maybe you want to send him to Ike route for whatever reason, or you need him wiht tibarn. Sothe is locked to miccy's route.
Sothe being around when Volug isn't is a very important advantage to Sothe because of the magnitude of his contributions. In 1-2 Sothe is able to clear the northern area on his own and retrieve the Energy Drop. He is essential for an efficient clear of 1-3 since he can unlock the door on the east, 2RKO the boss (and steal the Discipline Scroll if you care) and ORKO everything on the side. He is also essential for a 1-4 clear since he can ORKO every enemy on the map with the Beastkiller, take numerous hits, and has a reliable chance of obtaining the Beastfoe scroll (also possibly the Master Seal), which is very important for 3-6. And one of the most important aspects of Sothe is that when he joins, he is the only unit who is capable of taking on more than 3 units without getting his ass kicked wile being the only unit who can reliably ORKO. Basically when Sothe joins, he is by far the best unit on the team. When Volug joins however, he has to compete with Sothe for the title of best unit.The most significant problem with hyping up Sothe's 1-2 to 1-4 is that not only are those maps short, but there is a lower enemy:PC ratio compared to what you see in part 3 or 4. To use an extreme example, suppose that 1-2 had only 1 enemy, a generic soldier. IN this case it would hardly matter that Sothe is so much better than the rest of the team, because you have enough other PCs to gang up on it.
Now in reality there is no such ridiculous case, but the point remains the same. For example, 1-2 has 15 enemies (plus 4 reinforcements that you probably aren't fighting because they come so late) and you have 6 PCs, a ratio of 2.5. On the other hand, a map like 3-6, you have about 5 units at most that are capable of fighting with miccy/laura mostly healbotting (you don't have the resources to train more), and you need to kill 40 enemies, a ratio of like 8+. Even with NPCs to help, who kinda don't do anything other than be cannon fodder anyway, and the BK, who only shows up halfway through the map, that is a much bigger difference.
In addition, the 15 enemies are spread throughout the entire map, meaning after you kill a couple of enemies, you have some time to heal up and get into "formation" before reaching the next group of enemies, reducing the need to be able to one round enemies and have infinite durability. However, in 3-6, the enemies keep on coming, so you always need to be ready, and you need to kill them in a timely matter so they don't clog up (as well as the fact that you need to kill 40 to clear the map anyway). What this means is that each PC will be killing more in the chapters that Volug > Sothe, and so having units that can do that job better becomes more important.
Time/length of chapter is also important. Winning in a chapter that takes, say, 7 turns should generally matter less than winning in a chapter that takes, say, 12 turns. (or more importantly, winning in a chapter that takes X minutes should matter less than winning in a chapter that takes X + Y minutes). The more time spent in the map, the more decisions have to be made, and those decisions become more critical; most importantly, I don't want to be restarting maps (usually because a unit died) because it wastes time, and in longer maps, restarting deeper in the chapter means more wasted time. Again, being strong in these longer maps is more important than being strong in the shorter maps.
4-E is Sothe's advantage however since he doesn't kick out a better unit for his slot.Yes, Sothe gets a free slot in 4-E while Volug doesn't. This doesn't mean Sothe is any good at fighting even if he's leveled. He is probably your worst unit in 4-E outside of the dragons and miccy, and even that's debatable as the dragons give useful stats to other PCs and miccy can staffbot. I guess you could say that with the royals, double bow shinon, etc., that there is no room for Volug, but with that kind of lineup Sothe isn't doing anything worthwhile anyway, and in a slightly less stacked lineup, Volug doesn't look that bad.
tl;dr
See a pattern here? Sothe at max HP/def loses to base Volug. Sothe with max att and using a weapon that may not even exist matches base Volug with only s-strike in 3-12 and still loses AS (he's still slightly behind in the laguz map because hit). Sothe with any support he wants matches the bonuses volug at 1 support level lower gets. Sothe, at his absolute best, loses to base Volug with just s-strike. And it's not like Volug can't use resources; giving him stat boosters just makes him even more ridiculous, beyond what Sothe can touch.
The most significant problem with hyping up Sothe's 1-2 to 1-4 is that not only are those maps short, but there is a lower enemy:PC ratio compared to what you see in part 3 or 4.
Yes, Sothe gets a free slot in 4-E while Volug doesn't. This doesn't mean Sothe is any good at fighting even if he's leveled.
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a few more naruto cards and a revision of an older one
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Just post now, I'll respond when I have the time
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every unit wants some kind of resources. The only time you don't want resources is when you can OHKO everything and take 0 damage in return and have infinite move.
the main thing is what minimum level of performance do you want out of your team. For example, if 2HKOing everything and never dying is what you want, "base" Gatrie is perfectly fine, but if you want one rounding and good move, then Gatrie needs a master crown and celerity.
ITT I rank the characters
in Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Posted
oh snap forgot about this topic
i'll try to update it soon as I'm almost done anyway