Ranking each game by class: Wyverns

[Whisky]

9 hours ago, Samu_77 said:

I hate this unit, they are so close to being great but are just short of it. Another small thing is that Zeiss is required for the best ending up through chapter 21, so you have to take even more care then usual to keep him alive if you are using him (it's a very small thing but when the character has 3x weakness to common weapons in Sacae rout it's worth mentioning).

“Close to great” = ‘pretty good’, right? Why do you hate a unit for being good? That seems weird to me. I think that Zeiss has weaknesses holding back from being great but also has strengths that keep him pretty decent despite those weaknesses. Flying is a really big strength. 15 Spd doesn’t even sound bad to me, he should be able to double slow enemies. 1RKOs are a lot rarer in FE6 HM than in most FE games so not being great at 1RKOing isn’t that bad and is an issue a lot of units have. This actually gives the opportunity for weaker units to support stronger units by working together as a team and finishing off enemies weakened by stronger units. I feel like you’re holding Zeiss to a higher standard than is fair. Miledy is kinda OP. Zeiss doesn’t need to be nearly that strong to be a decent unit. I think he’s fine.

I made him into one of my mains in an Ironman when I foolishly got Miledy killed and he performed well. Ended up getting the kill against Zephiel (which was the final boss since I didn’t unlock the secret ending in that playthrough). I didn’t Arena grind. He really doesn’t take that much investment, he’s only a few levels off from being able to promote and gains exp quickly since he’s low level.

9 hours ago, Samu_77 said:

If your only use for Zeiss is rescue dropping then Juno is unironically better because you have higher movement at base,

I mean, maybe, but if that’s a useful thing to use him for then what are you complaining about? Even if you aren’t using them in combat, flyers are still useful for their Rescue/Drop utility.

[samthedigital]

11 hours ago, Samu_77 said:

Okay, but for starters, Arena Abuse isn't a great argument, it may be true that Zeiss would end up better then a lot other units with Arena abuse because he has naturally great traits (Canto Rescue, high defense, Flight) and has good growths, I can arena or boss abuse anybody in this game and have an absolute monster that steamrolls through the game. 

There's a difference between abusing the arena for a few hundred turns and using it for a handful of turns while everyone else is off clearing the map; I'd assume that it's more of the latter.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

11 hours ago, Samu_77 said:

Okay, but for starters, Arena Abuse isn't a great argument, it may be true that Zeiss would end up better then a lot other units with Arena abuse because he has naturally great traits (Canto Rescue, high defense, Flight) and has good growths, I can arena or boss abuse anybody in this game and have an absolute monster that steamrolls through the game. 

Who said anything about abuse? He flew over to the arena and then back for healing the way I send Ceada off to take out a thief in the distance. I was just trying to hit level 10 whichever way I could while my bulkiest units worked their way through the fog, waiting for enemies to show up that he could finish off on his return. I didn't huddle my army around the arena to grind levels once the map was over (although I did do just that in chapter 13. It's right by the Seize point and I was training the Bors/Bars Dream Team. Editors Note: Don't do this). My overall FE6 Ranking graded me higher on Tactics than EXP. If that exonerates my "arena abuse". I throw myself before the mercy of the LTC court, your honor

The unit that actually soaked up way too many levels on 17B was Geese. I sent him north to deal with the mages and they couldn't hit him on the Peak tiles. That experience informed a lot of my strategy moving forward in the game. But this Peak Abuse and Hand Axe Abuse was a big help in the short term, because I didn't have to worry about enemies showing up from behind us.

Edited October 19, 2023 by Zapp Branniglenn

[Shadow Mir]

On 10/17/2023 at 6:29 PM, samthedigital said:

Freddy can solo Lunatic also, though it's probably better to call it carry since technically Chrom is helping.

On the subject of Chrom, you're gonna need a good Chrom for Grima, as otherwise you get an unwinnable scenario as anything with staves heals them (special mention to Sages and War Monks for Healtouch, and Tomefaire in the former case). I saw one end up choking at the end because of this; they couldn't damage Grima at all. Not that that mattered; what did them in was getting surrounded by Grimleal soldiers.

Anyway...

B tier in 3 Houses. I know this is a hot take, but I'm of the mind Wyverns are overrated. Axes are not very good in 3H (Raging Storm is literally their only good combat art, and that's locked to one character), and their accuracy is too iffy in most situations to make them worth it. Higher damage doesn't make up for this. Unlike was the case in RD and Fates, weight is an issue, and their higher weight means likely missing doubles or worse, being doubled, which again, higher damage doesn't justify. There is also the battalion issue to consider; namely, the fact that premium flying battalions are limited. Also, the two characters who can most easily access it - namely, Cyril and Seteth - have issues. Like not being usable on all routes, for starters. In Seteth's case, more damning, he doesn't come until mid-game, meaning he misses out on Intermediate masteries my other units may have picked up, meaning he needs to play catch-up. Cyril suffers the same issue in Silver Snow, too, but even with the Lions or Deer, it's difficult to justify using him. They also have lackluster masteries, especially Wyvern Lord (loldefiantcrit). That being said, they're still a great class.

13 hours ago, Whisky said:

“Close to great” = ‘pretty good’, right? Why do you hate a unit for being good? That seems weird to me. I think that Zeiss has weaknesses holding back from being great but also has strengths that keep him pretty decent despite those weaknesses. Flying is a really big strength. 15 Spd doesn’t even sound bad to me, he should be able to double slow enemies. 1RKOs are a lot rarer in FE6 HM than in most FE games so not being great at 1RKOing isn’t that bad and is an issue a lot of units have. This actually gives the opportunity for weaker units to support stronger units by working together as a team and finishing off enemies weakened by stronger units. I feel like you’re holding Zeiss to a higher standard than is fair. Miledy is kinda OP. Zeiss doesn’t need to be nearly that strong to be a decent unit. I think he’s fine.

I made him into one of my mains in an Ironman when I foolishly got Miledy killed and he performed well. Ended up getting the kill against Zephiel (which was the final boss since I didn’t unlock the secret ending in that playthrough). I didn’t Arena grind. He really doesn’t take that much investment, he’s only a few levels off from being able to promote and gains exp quickly since he’s low level.

You make it sound like it's unheard of for something good to be disliked. Admittedly, it's more likely to be the case in fighting games, mostly for characters that have few bad matchups. 

11 hours ago, samthedigital said:

There's a difference between abusing the arena for a few hundred turns and using it for a handful of turns while everyone else is off clearing the map; I'd assume that it's more of the latter.

True. Though regardless, the likes of Zeiss are NOT who I would send to the arena, as that provokes enemies to use higher grade weapons. 

[samthedigital]

6 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

On the subject of Chrom, you're gonna need a good Chrom for Grima, as otherwise you get an unwinnable scenario as anything with staves heals them (special mention to Sages and War Monks for Healtouch, and Tomefaire in the former case). I saw one end up choking at the end because of this; they couldn't damage Grima at all. Not that that mattered; what did them in was getting surrounded by Grimleal soldiers.

Yeah, Chrom is going to get a lot of incidental experience just from being the backpack the whole run, but it's also a good idea to feed him stat boosters and boss kills to help against Grima.

[Cysx]

On 10/20/2023 at 6:04 AM, Shadow Mir said:

On the subject of Chrom, you're gonna need a good Chrom for Grima, as otherwise you get an unwinnable scenario as anything with staves heals them (special mention to Sages and War Monks for Healtouch, and Tomefaire in the former case). I saw one end up choking at the end because of this; they couldn't damage Grima at all. Not that that mattered; what did them in was getting surrounded by Grimleal soldiers.

You really don't, however it is true that it's one of the few chapters where you cannot just rush in and win without taking some time looking at numbers. Definitely helps to have forged brave weaponry, so if you've spent all your money already...

[samthedigital]

1 minute ago, Cysx said:

You really don't, however it is true that it's one of the few chapters where you cannot just rush in and win without taking some time looking at numbers. Definitely helps to have forged brave weaponry, so if you've spent all your money already...

If Fred is the only unit we actively train then we want to have Chrom hit 30 speed so that Fred can quad with the Brave Axe. The dual strike damage also helps a lot since Grima has Pavise and Dragonskin. I guess I could be missing something, but it's hard to imagine Fred surviving for very long if the map doesn't end quickly.

[Cysx]

2 hours ago, samthedigital said:

If Fred is the only unit we actively train then we want to have Chrom hit 30 speed so that Fred can quad with the Brave Axe. The dual strike damage also helps a lot since Grima has Pavise and Dragonskin. I guess I could be missing something, but it's hard to imagine Fred surviving for very long if the map doesn't end quickly.

You could always make Fred a Paladin for +3 cap, because a 30 speed Chrom is a pretty tall ask.

But yes it generally has to be a two turns, so you have to calculate according to that. You can either do a rescue chain (it's possible with base Libra, Anna and Olivia), or just bank everything on turn 2.

Edited October 22, 2023 by Cysx

[samthedigital]

1 hour ago, Cysx said:

You could always make Fred a Paladin for +3 cap, because a +30 speed Chrom is a pretty tall ask.

But yes it generally has to be a two turns, so you have to calculate according to that. You can either do a rescue chain (it's possible with base Libra, Anna and Olivia), or just bank everything on turn 2.

 

39 +1 (defender) +2 (speed tonic) +3 (30 speed chrom) + 3 (bk pairup) +2 (A support)

This was to reach 50 speed. Paladin Fred maxes at 38, so I'm not sure where I would get the extra speed with that class. Getting Chrom to 30 speed shouldn't be too bad. I haven't looked at averages, but I had him reach 32 by the end of the game. (edit: seems like he averages 31 with the pathing I took? I used a few speedwing to help him out though.)

Edited October 22, 2023 by samthedigital

[Cysx]

3 hours ago, samthedigital said:

 

39 +1 (defender) +2 (speed tonic) +3 (30 speed chrom) + 3 (bk pairup) +2 (A support)

This was to reach 50 speed. Paladin Fred maxes at 38, so I'm not sure where I would get the extra speed with that class. Getting Chrom to 30 speed shouldn't be too bad. I haven't looked at averages, but I had him reach 32 by the end of the game. (edit: seems like he averages 31 with the pathing I took? I used a few speedwing to help him out though.)

Well technically you could stay as great lord for +1 speed pairup, and I didn't think of defender...

The actual difference would be, why... don't you have Rally speed, exactly ? It's ridiculously easy to get on Lissa. I was assuming Rally speed on Great knight, my quick math might have been rough, though.
There's also Rally Spectrum, but I didn't assume it in a Fred solo.

From my experience it's pretty easy to cap your solo unit's stats outside of really bad growths, and as you said, you could use speedwings.

Chrom as a pure pairup tends not to reach 30 speed from my experience. And there's definitely the possibility of him getting screwed. Did you use him as an active unit a lot ?

Edited October 23, 2023 by Cysx

[samthedigital]

29 minutes ago, Cysx said:

The actual difference would be, why... don't you have Rally speed, exactly ? It's ridiculously easy to get on Lissa.

I don't have my save file on hand anymore to see what level Lissa ended up at (she got some exp), but the simple answer is that I didn't bother training anyone other than Chrom or Fred and stopped deploying anyone else as soon as I was able to.

29 minutes ago, Cysx said:

Chrom as a pure pairup tends not to reach 30 speed from my experience. And there's definitely the possibility of him getting screwed. Did you use him as an active unit a lot ?

I managed to get Chrom to 11?>Archer 10>Sniper 10 > Paladin 10>Bow Knight. My Chrom actually did get a little speed screwed, but there should be enough leeway with Speedwings most of the time. I mostly fed him bosses with a Longbow when he was an Archer/Sniper, but in retrospect I could have fed him more. I was winging it, so I didn't realize that I should level him until halfway into the run.

Edited October 23, 2023 by samthedigital

[Cysx]

1 hour ago, samthedigital said:

I don't have my save file on hand anymore to see what level Lissa ended up at (she got some exp), but the simple answer is that I didn't bother training anyone other than Chrom or Fred and stopped deploying anyone else as soon as I was able to.

Okay. Well, with rescue spam it really is quite easy(even from base once you have buyable rescues, Cleric 10 Sage 10 Falcon 5 could be done in about five chapters), and can simplify the final battle a good bunch.

1 hour ago, samthedigital said:

I managed to get Chrom to 11?>Archer 10>Sniper 10 > Paladin 10>Bow Knight. My Chrom actually did get a little speed screwed, but there should be enough leeway with Speedwings most of the time. I mostly fed him bosses with a Longbow when he was an Archer/Sniper, but in retrospect I could have fed him more. I was winging it, so I didn't realize that I should level him until halfway into the run.

Yeah. As a pure pairup in a solo Chrom's in luck if he gets >25 levels in the whole game.

I do maintain that there are some considerably less commital options, but whatever works I suppose. Better Chrom does give more reliable Grima kills for many, including Fred.

Edited October 23, 2023 by Cysx

[samthedigital]

15 hours ago, Cysx said:

Okay. Well, with rescue spam it really is quite easy(even from base once you have buyable rescues, Cleric 10 Sage 10 Falcon 5 could be done in about five chapters), and can simplify the final battle a good bunch.

I'm sure that it's easy, but I like to be as lazy as possible when I can help it 😄.