Rate the Base-Game Units: Rating Redux

[Florete]

2 hours ago, Bartozio said:

I might have worded it badly, but I basically meant to just say I disagreed with the rating of these two. I haven't really used Alcryst long term yet, so I'm not too confident about how good he could be later on. I mostly just doubt he's much better than Etie overall, if he's even better at all.

For the record, I didn't intend my response as some sort of rebuttal to you, I was just using it to share my thoughts on the subject.

2 hours ago, Bartozio said:

In terms of the best bow unit in the game though, I don't really consider either of these two as real options. Fogado has a much easier time staying relevant and between his high speed and better magic he's a better user of the Radiant bow for killing wyverns or dealing chip damage to non-flyers. Warrior Anna is probably an even better user of the Radiant Bow and she can come with Canter into the Solm arc. And there's always options like Warrior Pannette with a killer bow if you really want to snipe down everything under the sun.

Fogado is pretty good. I'm not sure I would consider him better than Etie, but I can see the argument.

Panette, well, she's better than most units. When I say Etie is the best bow user I'm thinking in terms of who is on the field primarily using bows, which isn't usually Panette for me. Etie being able to use Silver Bow as a Warrior does at least help close the gap.

[Jotari]

On 10/24/2023 at 9:15 AM, Wuzzy said:

Veyle - I'm surprised she's ranked this high considering Saphir/Lindon/Mauvier all got blasted for having poor availability and got ranked lower as a result but, Veyle has the worst availability out of all of them. Even then, it's not like the latter 3 are completely unsalvageable either as I find them to be very competent filler units.

Veyle has low availability, true, but I think people are kind to her because she has uncontested availability. You don't have to use her, but using her is pretty much always going to be convenient because she'll probably be better than any back benchers you have and the game increases availability spots just for her and Mauvier. So she's basically free deployed, unlike someone like Saphir or Lindon who have to actively perform better than any of the other units you're using.

[samthedigital]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Veyle has low availability, true, but I think people are kind to her because she has uncontested availability. You don't have to use her, but using her is pretty much always going to be convenient because she'll probably be better than any back benchers you have and the game increases availability spots just for her and Mauvier. So she's basically free deployed, unlike someone like Saphir or Lindon who have to actively perform better than any of the other units you're using.

Yeah, even if it wasn't for her bases (which are actually really good if she ever wants out of Fell Child) she's a Dragon when the Byleth Instruct related bonuses start becoming a little more compelling.

On 10/29/2023 at 9:48 AM, Florete said:

Panette, well, she's better than most units. When I say Etie is the best bow user I'm thinking in terms of who is on the field primarily using bows, which isn't usually Panette for me. Etie being able to use Silver Bow as a Warrior does at least help close the gap.

I don't like to think of Engage in this way since anyone can reclass into anything. Warrior Amber for example can do just about anything that Etie can do, and since they ideally want Lyn either of them is going to have access to Mulagir anyway.

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I don't think Alcryst deserves to be above Etie at all lmao.

If we're comparing Alcryst to Etie in particular though it depends on how much you value the short term utility. As a long term prospect I'd agree that Etie is clearly better because of the difference in strength. If I remember Alcryst's class skill amounts to giving him the same strength as Etie on average, so Etie can more consistently take advantage of her strength while having the freedom to be in any class she chooses. Alcryst could technically choose to have more consistent damage in another class, but then he deals less damage than Etie anyway.

Etie does require some babying and/or Micaiah/Marth to get going on Maddening though (I want to say that this isn't so necessary on Hard mode, but I haven't played it in a good while, and it was my first playthrough), and those are emblems everyone wants for exp. Alcryst can fill in for a few chapters and promote if we want him to stay relevant for a little longer before the busted mid-game units come along, and that's where I see him being a better unit than Etie.

[Barren]

If we’re going to the etie/alcryst/fogado comparison again (though this is already covered in our analysis throughout the forum) might as well chime in too.

 

Etie as already mentioned had a good enough strength growth to where her chip is going to remain relevant because of how consistent her damage is. But the rest of her stats are pretty bad and she gets ORKO’d around the mid game on maddening. Not counting DLC she would need help from Lyn (who doesn’t) in fixing her speed. After that she can be pretty good. If she can get Canter by chapter 10 then she makes a good Bow Knight/Sniper that can move in and out. Warrior if you prefer back up utility.

 

Alcryst while deals less damage overall than Etie because of his lower strength growth, makes up for it later with Luna assuming you promote him as soon as you get him as he wouldn’t require as much babysitting. Same with Fogado as well.

 

Fogado is the fastest and therefore probably the one most would recommend since he’s on a horse and is likely to stay there unless you make him into a warrior for more strength. Cupido is slept on because his magic growth is actually passable. At least to the point where he can use radiant bow and levin sword very effectively. Radiant Bow in particular wrecks WKs and flying enemies in general since its might is ridiculous even before forging/engraving.

 

Regardless of who you pick, all of them can wield Killer Bows with a Erika engraving and still be able to get things done.

 

Of course I haven’t played Engage in a long time, been on a FE GBA high as of late and dipped my toe into Genealogy of the Holy and Thracia too. So I’m not if there is a new current meta for this game’s maddening or not but I am going to presume that the usual suspects are the ones to deploy for pretty much every map.

[SnowFire]

Yeah, I put some stats in the old threads ( Etie thread , Alcryst thread ), but just to briefly go over a bit...  if you are willing to give Lyn to your archer, then Etie is arguably the best user of it.  But if not, and this is a reasonable thing to talk about (in the same way that part of why Seadall is good is that he isn't needy for Emblems and Panette makes good use of a "bad" Emblem in Leif, so the reverse case of really desperately wanting one of the best Emblems in the game)... Etie definitely looks a lot worse, as now she pays for her bad speed.

I think it's also worth mentioning that Etie has the worst overall durability in the game.  Not among archers, frailest among the entire cast.  Sure, there are some physically frailer units like Hortensia, and there are some slower units like Louis, but Etie manages to combine horrible HP / Defense with bad speed and meh Resistance.  And bad Build too which makes the speed even worse!  At least Hortensia can be hard for enemies to double.  Sure, if you really know what you're doing, Etie's fraility can be compensated for with careful play and the occasional Tonic, or the Draconic Time Crystal at worst.  But this has to count for something.  Etie is so, so much more likely to get one-rounded and die than your other options if you need to leave your archer in enemy range.

Edited November 1, 2023 by SnowFire

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

Gonna be honest, dancers cant surpass the units they refresh and a guy who joins in 15 outta 26 can be neither 9.5 nor a round 10.

[SlumLordDaddy]

On 11/30/2023 at 4:05 AM, Imuabicus der Fertige said:

Gonna be honest, dancers cant surpass the units they refresh and a guy who joins in 15 outta 26 can be neither 9.5 nor a round 10.

I push back on this because there's a lot of good dancer tricks in this game. Paired with byleth's goddess dance you can hit 6 refreshes in a map which is crazy. He gets passive healing and stat buffs on those he dances. He's perfect for canter and quality time.  Refreshing an engaged corrin unit means that corrin unit now gets to lay down twice as much fire or debuff/freeze twice as many units. 10/10 insane unit for just stunting on the enemy team. In chapter 21 the dancer is critical for staying on top of enemy reinforcements and letting you soak up that sweet exp.

 

Anyways I'm on my third maddening run gonna go into the fourth with a challenge run (barbarian horde: berserkers, warriors, wolf knights, and wyverns only). I agree largely with the placements ± a point here or there. My main disagreements are chloé. She's perennially placed at the top even though she has insanely low build and strength. It's usually hand waved as fixable with wyvern lord but I find that not true. I'm doing a challenge run right now that involves using clanne who has similar stats to chloé and I have him on wyvern and it's really only his Erika ring keeping him relevant. I'd take her down a peg. 

Kagetsu is fine but I usually get him into warrior. To do some strength fixing.  I'd probably also lower him down a peg.

Panette. S tier. I usually have a lyn engraved killer axe waiting for her when she joins and then it's just off to the races. She starts strong and only gets stronger once you get lief and wrath on her. No idea why kagetsu got so over hyped when she exists. Marth is your delete button in the early game. Panette is your unlimited use delete button for mid and late game.

Louis a seemingly B tier unit but when paired with the seemingly B tier emblem Ike there is an unholy synergy. Slap some pure water on his cheeks and send him out there with a great axe and watch him cook. I usually start him in great knight then move him into general so he can use the silver great axe. He fights with his eyes closed and it shows in combat with abysmal accuracy, but he has a great luck growth and divine pulse is dirt cheap so he's going to do just fine even against dodgy wolf knights/swordmasterd. Give him draconic hex for his great aether and he can set up multiple enemies with debuffs without even wasting his turn.

Anna is rated too low. She joins as a backup unit when you're backup unit starved and then gracefully reclasses into mage knight. She's not great in the early game but the early game is so easy that I don't care. I usually stick byleth on her because they have great synergy. He boosts her magic, gives her some luck for procs, and divine pulse is a life saver for attacking the afford mentioned wolf knights and sword masters.

 

Boucheron is waaaaayyy too low. Makes me think this list is suffering from 1st play through syndrome. Great speed. Great bulk. Best build growth. Bad strength. That strength would be a problem if he wasn't able to use the highest might weapons in the game with absolutely no speed penalty and his dexterity makes him chuck tomahawks with pinpoint accuracy. Check out his stats on a stat calculator. Berserker will bump his strength growth to 50%. You keep him on that for 20 levels then move him to warrior and he's golden.

 

Edited December 10, 2023 by SlumLordDaddy

[samthedigital]

7 hours ago, SlumLordDaddy said:

My main disagreements are chloé. She's perennially placed at the top even though she has insanely low build and strength. It's usually hand waved as fixable with wyvern lord but I find that not true. I'm doing a challenge run right now that involves using clanne who has similar stats to chloé and I have him on wyvern and it's really only his Erika ring keeping him relevant. I'd take her down a peg. 

Nowadays the meta is to make use of her magic stat and make her a Mage/Griffin Knight. It tends to do better towards the late game and doesn't require a lot of important stat boosters. Wyvern was the choice early on because people would hyper invest into Chloe dumping a ton of resources on her to get her to snowball as soon as possible. Wyvern was probably more popular early on because that is a common strategy in a few of the other games.

7 hours ago, SlumLordDaddy said:

Makes me think this list is suffering from 1st play through syndrome.

That's not exactly true. There are definitely people that contributed that played through once (and that's fine!), but generally speaking it's probably how you rate units and your playstyle that are at odds with the tier list rather than because people don't know the game that well.

I'll give you a few examples of this:

7 hours ago, SlumLordDaddy said:

In chapter 21 the dancer is critical for staying on top of enemy reinforcements and letting you soak up that sweet exp.

7 hours ago, SlumLordDaddy said:

Give him draconic hex for his great aether and he can set up multiple enemies with debuffs without even wasting his turn.

7 hours ago, SlumLordDaddy said:

She's not great in the early game but the early game is so easy that I don't care.

7 hours ago, SlumLordDaddy said:

Berserker will bump his strength growth to 50%. You keep him on that for 20 levels then move him to warrior and he's golden.

7 hours ago, SlumLordDaddy said:

Refreshing an engaged corrin unit means that corrin unit now gets to lay down twice as much fire or debuff/freeze twice as many units.

I could provide you with counterexamples based on playstyle or a difference in personal opinion for every single one of those points, but for the sake of some brevity I will only go through the first of those quotes that I listed. I am not milking chapter 21 for exp because it's not going to help me later. I'd much rather finish within like 4-5 turns at most, and that's only if I'm trying to grab the weapons that enemies drop.

Edited December 10, 2023 by samthedigital

[Dean]

On 10/24/2023 at 12:03 PM, samthedigital said:

His lack of flight prevents him from snowballing in chapter 12 in my experience. I might be able to see him starting to snowball in chapter 13, but I like to give Lyn to Ivy and glue my Bonded Shield to her since I don't bother memorizing what's in the dark and she has 1-2 range to wreck just about everything on the map iirc. That is to say I think that there is an argument to be made between him and Panette. I largely agree with your points otherwise. I'm a little annoyed that I forgot to mention Chloe myself though.

On the surface I think this is a fair enough opinion, but we do have ways to feed Kagetsu kills pretty quickly in C12 and C13 and he makes pretty good use of the exp to slaughter the rest of the game. This playthrough is a pretty good demonstration: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zyWslFpDNA&list=PLarkWv8c6mgn8AEosaTvDq3B5lqGUJ9hE&index=14

 

[samthedigital]

1 hour ago, Dean said:

On the surface I think this is a fair enough opinion, but we do have ways to feed Kagetsu kills pretty quickly in C12 and C13 and he makes pretty good use of the exp to slaughter the rest of the game. This playthrough is a pretty good demonstration: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zyWslFpDNA&list=PLarkWv8c6mgn8AEosaTvDq3B5lqGUJ9hE&index=14

Wuzzy mentioned the Parthia strategy originally, yeah. It's just not something that I would see myself going for. There's no doubt that Kagetsu can slaughter the game regardless though; I wouldn't dispute that. The LTC you linked doesn't do the emblem paralogues either, so there's more room for exp.

Edited December 15, 2023 by samthedigital

[Dean]

Yeah it's kind of like, can he do it: yes; do you have to do it: no; should you do it: up to the player (but my personal preference is yes).

Like he's hardly the MVP of these chapters or doing anything particularly unique or unreplaceable, but he is finding a way to contribute without sacrificing turncount or reliability and setting himself up for later in the game pretty well.

 

For the list as a whole, from an efficiency standpoint, I think I'd echo what's been said in this thread previously. Amber, Citrinne and Vander all a bit low (Vander in particular), with Fogado, Veyle, Goldmary and Lapis standing out as the ones I think are a bit high.