Ranking each game by class: Mages / Sages

[samthedigital]

57 minutes ago, Cysx said:

Which is also why I'm not really for ignoring decision time. It's... a good 70-90% of playtime with animations off.

Are you suggesting accounting for player skill or something? It doesn't make a lot of sense to do that to me; I'm interested in how good a strategy is and not on a player's ability to execute that strategy.

1 hour ago, Cysx said:

I'm also hesitant about the variable duration of enemy phase being a factor, since that is unconditionally when the game isn't being played. It can be optimized still, by making choices that limit its length, but in general, it's out of the player's hands.

1 hour ago, Cysx said:

Within the scope of this applying to more than yourself however (which may not be what you're going for in the slightest), one cannot be this strict

I mean yeah, you can optimize enemy phase in Awakening cutting out level ups when the carry gets enough stats to clear the game as an example, but you're right, I'm not that strict about it. The reason I brought it up in the first place was to show that it's possible to have efficient play in mind without necessarily caring whether a strategy takes a few more turns to complete since you mentioned "turncount murder".

1 hour ago, Cysx said:

Clearly we don't have the same approach here, which is fine. Also Imma moderate myself from here because I'm reaching a new level of off topic. Good talk !

For all the differences in how we approach class ratings we still come to roughly the same conclusion with regards to Awakening right? Mage/Sage is a class with good skills, class utility, and has a niche for certain carries. I would also add that it has additional value on Lunatic+ early on because of Pavise+ for the sake of being a little more thorough even though you don't have any opinions on that difficulty.

[Shadow Mir]

On 11/22/2023 at 11:09 PM, Dark Holy Elf said:

But high magic is considered a major selling point, which you're ignoring. "Three high stats, and one of them is one of the import⁹ant ones" isn't damning. It's not automatically good by any means, but it can work.

High magic alone is not enough for me to overlook how she is so slow she struggles to double fucking armors, aka the slowest of the slow. That's a deal breaker if I ever saw one. If "unga bunga big magic stat" is all it takes to convince you she's good... 

On 11/22/2023 at 11:09 PM, Dark Holy Elf said:

Onmyoji is a perfectly reasonable promotion for Azama; Grand Master involves a wait for 1-2 range and doesn't give Rally Magic.

Really? Because one look at his stats and growths tells me with all the subtlety of a jackhammer that I am only shooting myself in the foot by having him go Onmyoji. For fuck's sake, I don't see why you'd rather make Azama a shitty mage instead of a tanky bruiser who also heals every turn. Unless you think his poor magic stat and the mighty Rat Spirit can work miracles... also, to be blunt, not having Rally Magic is no big loss when the mages are almost all lackluster. If I wanted to vie so hard for mages, I'd do it in any game that ain't Fates.

On 11/22/2023 at 11:09 PM, Dark Holy Elf said:

Constance only has one high stat, Lysithea might as well only have one (her other high stat is Dex but that's nearly useless on FE3H mages, clocking in at +0.5 hit per point, a third as potent as Fates Skill). Both are generally considered good. I don't play FEH any more but Reinhardt was utterly dominant for a large stretch of time with only one high stat. etc.

I cannot speak on Constance; I have the DLC, but have not had the chance to use her (also, aren't she and Lysithea both praised for their spell lists?). I was not around during Reinhardt's heyday, so I cannot say anything on that either. 

On 11/22/2023 at 11:09 PM, Dark Holy Elf said:

Izana literally exists for a zero-effort as I already mentioned. And although I think of Onmyojis as ideal pairups for mages, there are other classes which aren't that much worse (swordmaster and nine-tails offer even more speed, master ninja offers speed and move, etc.).

Izana? As in the same loser who fucks my team over just by virtue of existing and has little to offer to make up for it? HAHAHAHAHAHA... NO. He can have a seat. On the bench, aka the only spot where he does anything good for me.

 

Edited November 24, 2023 by Shadow Mir

[Cysx]

5 hours ago, samthedigital said:

Are you suggesting accounting for player skill or something? It doesn't make a lot of sense to do that to me; I'm interested in how good a strategy is and not on a player's ability to execute that strategy.

Not particularly, skill does not correlate with fast thinking necessarily. Can't say I have a clean solution to propose for this one either.

5 hours ago, samthedigital said:

The reason I brought it up in the first place was to show that it's possible to have efficient play in mind without necessarily caring whether a strategy takes a few more turns to complete since you mentioned "turncount murder".

Just to address this, that was strong wording for sure. In the case of an Awakening solo, chapters tend to be quite short, so taking 2-3 or more turns to boss feed properly tends to be fairly meaningful proportionally.

5 hours ago, samthedigital said:

For all the differences in how we approach class ratings we still come to roughly the same conclusion with regards to Awakening right? Mage/Sage is a class with good skills, class utility, and has a niche for certain carries. I would also add that it has additional value on Lunatic+ early on because of Pavise+ for the sake of being a little more thorough even though you don't have any opinions on that difficulty.

Yeah, I think that boils it down pretty well. It's not a bad class.

[samthedigital]

2 hours ago, Cysx said:

Yeah, I think that boils it down pretty well. It's not a bad class.

I did a small amount of research because I was curious about them in an LTC context. Apparently Ricken is actually good because of his bases and ability to promote through combat exp which is pretty funny since he's often considered to be the worst of the bunch. Miriel can also be pretty useful at the same time, though. The natural staffers don't have the time to get to promotion in such a low number of turns, so while useful they aren't as good. It doesn't influence my opinions since I don't really care about turn counts in Awakening (and LTCs have other weird quirks that make them ill suited for unit/class rankings IMO), but it is interesting.

Edited November 24, 2023 by samthedigital