What do Legendary Weapons Have in Common? Part II

[Jotari]

15 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

If it's just royalty then the list should even smaller.

By the way, Astram isn't a noble, he's just a mercenary. Unless you mean after the War of Shadows, but being given Mercurius aside I don't think he actually got any lordship title as well. Likewise Lorenz is a General, no mention of being noble either. Inversely, Lena and Matthis are Macedon nobles.

On reviewing Astram's supports with Jeorge, it does very much seem like he is just a mercenary commander. Course we know during his fun times with Jeorge that Jeorge was secretly a noble, so it isn't impossible that Astram was too, or he was publicly a noble and the leader of a mercenary company, but while that is theoretically true, it's evidently not what they were going for. His personality does feel rougher and more like someone from a mercenary background. So I'd say his backstory is that he established himself as a mercenary of renown during the initial years of the War of Shadows where Midia fell for him, and then in the wake of that war with Archanea's nobility largely destroyed he was granted a peerage and title which made his engagement to Midia more acceptable and justified his later use of Mercuirus.

[Original Alear]

I normally don't feel like u guys are missing the point when I'm on here, but i think here you are (maybe intentionally to generate discussion, please don't take that as offensive, I actually think it's perfectly fine).

I'm pretty sure legendary weapons are frequently coined as such in the game (or "divine"). They're chiefly legendary because there are legends about them, because they have some kind of connection to legendary events, because someone legendary wielded them. I don't think that S rank weapons in games like FE7, 9 or 10, which have little to no  story importance (though Greil's Urvan is discussed very briefly when Caineghis presents it, for example) are ever described as legendary - at least I don't think that word is used. However, it seems to me that the mani katti has legends about it, seems legendary, even though it doesn't fall into the kind of legendary weapon profile I think most of the weapons that are being discussed will fall into.

It's about story.

Edited December 11, 2023 by Original Alear

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

On 12/8/2023 at 10:11 PM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

This sword was forged from the fang of the great dragon,

I´m wondering, if u sharpen the Falchion, does that count as dental care? Could u bill Naga or her other self Nagi? How does Nagi feel about giving you her tooth, when clearly you´ve already lost the og ones? Is the origin of Fire Emblem blacksmithing just part of the teeth brushing routine for dragons? 

[Jotari]

6 hours ago, Imuabicus der Fertige said:

I´m wondering, if u sharpen the Falchion, does that count as dental care? Could u bill Naga or her other self Nagi?

If my dentist tries to bill me for stuff he's done to my teeth after they've been removed from mouth then I'm finding a new dentist.

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

10 hours ago, Jotari said:

If my dentist tries to bill me for stuff he's done to my teeth after they've been removed from mouth then I'm finding a new dentist.

Yeah, but consider the only reason your tooth is still being used is because you didnt finish the job.

Really your tooth is just putting in overtime.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

Part II: What Do Legendary Weapons Have in Common?

Hello, again! Let me start by saying that I appreciate all the discussion we’ve had thus far. There’s clearly a lot to talk about, when it comes to legendary weapons, and I hope to provide material and analysis that continues to pique folks’ interest.

All that said, for this second entry, I have a particular format in mind. Namely, considering the legendary weapons we’ve already discussed, I’d like to come up with a handful of “hypotheses” about what traits they might have in common. From there, we can compare against other legendary weapon candidates throughout the series, and pass some sort of judgement. Does the hypothesis hold true across the board? Is it more of a “general trend”, that not all candidates need adhere to? Or is it totally ill-conceived, and worthy of being thrown into the trash? Let’s begin!

Observation: In the Archanea games, all weapons have durability. When they hit 0, they break. …Well, all weapons except 1, that is. That’s right, the Falchion is unbreakable. Neither the Archanean Regalia, nor the renowned Starlight tome, share this trait. In fact, excepting Dragonstones in FE1, it appears to be the only unbreakable playable weapon in the Archanea titles (but I could be missing some). The same applies in Tellius – while almost all weapons have durability, Ragnell and Alondite are exceptions. There’s also Amiti, a treasured weapon to the throne of Crimea. From this, a possibility arises:

First Hypothesis: If a weapon has infinite durability in the player’s hands, in a setting where most weapons have limited durability, then it must be Legendary.

Limitations: The wording here is important: it’s an “if, then”, not an “if and only if” statement. A weapon like Armads has limited durability. As do Forseti and the Lance of Ruin (although, in those cases, you can repair them at the blacksmith). Ergo, while this may be a sufficient condition for Legendary status, it is certainly not a necessary condition. Also, this statement says nothing on Legendary status in settings where all weapons have infinite durability, such as Valentia and Fateslandia.

Counter-examples: Again, I don’t know of any immediately – I had to look up the “Dragonstones have infinite durability in FE1” bit – but it’s possible someone more knowledgeable of the early games could correct me. That said, there is one clear counter-example… except that it’s unclear whether it should apply. See, in Tellius, the Laguz exist. And they fight with their Fangs, or Talons, or other appendages of choice. These “weapons” have infinite durability, but of course they’re not Legendary. Sure, maybe Nailah’s “Great Fang” could be called Legendary, since she’s the Queen of Hatari, but there’s no way the same could apply to Volug’s Fang, or Lyre’s Claw. It seems like a contradiction, but I would argue that what the Laguz use in battle aren’t technically “weapons”. In fact, that’s the whole point of the Laguz – they don’t use Beorc weapons, fighting instead with their bodies. In that case, they wouldn’t be “weapons with infinite durability”, so the hypothesis would not apply to them.

Verdict: With a sufficiently narrow definition of what counts as a “weapon” – i.e. excluding Dragonstones and Laguz Strikes – the First Hypothesis appears to hold. It is a sufficient, but not necessary, condition for Legendary status.

 

Observation: In the Archanea games, most weapons can have their status increased by Forging. This includes signature weapons, such as the Rapier and the Wing Spear. But there are quite a few that can’t be forged at all. This includes the Falchion, as well as the Archanean Regalia, the Macedonian Hauteclare, and the storied tomes of Starlight, Excalibur, and Aura. The same principle applies in Fodlan: most weapons can be forged into a “+” version, but not the Lance of Ruin. In fact, among playable weapons, the ones which cannot be forged include all the Hero’s Relics (golden icon), the Sacred Weapons (silver icon), the Scythe of Sariel, and the ersatz Archanean Regalia (plus Hauteclere).

Second Hypothesis: In a context in which most weapons can be Forged to improve their stats, a weapon is Legendary if and only if it cannot be improved via Forging.

Limitations: This statement says nothing in contexts where Forging cannot be used to improve a weapon’s stats. This includes Jugdral, Elibe – and Tellius, strangely enough. That’s right, the region that introduced Forging handles it in a completely different way from later games. Rather than a method to improve the stats of an existing weapon, it’s one to create a totally original weapon from a provided template. Sure, you can’t forge Ragnell – but you also can’t forge a Killing Edge, or a Storm Sword.

Counter-examples: These are actually fairly plentiful. When I spoke of the DS games, I missed a few. You also cannot forge the Devil Weapons, siege tomes, and Nosferatu. This was likely done for balancing reasons, but still, it applies. I certainly don’t think the Swarm tome, which shows up about a dozen times in enemy hands, is anything approaching “Legendary”. But, okay, it’s not a sufficient condition for Legendary status – but maybe it’s still a necessary one? That is, not all unforgeable weapons are Legendary, but all Legendary weapons are unforgeable? This one is contradicted rather quickly, however, in Echoes: Shadows of Valentia. That game also has a Falchion (which I’ll refer to as the “Kingsfang” from here on out, to distinguish it from the related-but-not-identical Archanean sword). But while the Falchion cannot be forged in the DS titles, the Kingsfang can be forged in its 3DS title. With 2 gold pieces, its stats can be improved. Likewise for the Royal Sword, the Beloved Zofia, and the Archanean Regalia that (somehow) made their way across the sea. There are weapons that cannot be forged in the game, but they appear scattershot: the Venin weapons, the Sol/Luna/Astra trio, the “default” weapons, non-rusted Axes, and the signature weapons attached to Amiibo units. Of these, I’d say the Amiibo weapons are generally Legendary, while the Sol/Luna/Astra trio might be, and the others definitely aren’t.

Verdict: There appears to be a real tendency for Legendary weapons to be unforgeable, even in games where more generic weapons can be forged. However, there are also some non-Legendary weapons that, for whatever reason, also cannot be forged. Additionally, there is a setting in which Legendary weapons can indeed be improved through forging. As such, this hypothesis is not tenable as a strict rule.

 

Observation: In FE1, the Falchion could not be sold, a trait it held in common with… every other weapon. By the time of Old Mystery, however, this had changed. You could now sell weapons! …Except for Falchion. And Starlight, by the way. In fact, the Archanean Falchion cannot be sold in most of its appearances. And the only case in which it can be sold (Marth’s Falchion in Fates, apparently), it sells for 0 Gold, so there’s no point in doing so. Likewise for Forseti, and the other Holy Weapons of Jugdral. While you can pay the Blacksmith to repair them, you can’t sell them to either the Pawn Shop, or the Item Shop. In fact, even if you get multiple children with the same Major Holy Blood in Gen II, you can’t transfer a Holy Weapon between them without glitches. And what’s more – none of the Legendary weapons we’ve looked at thus far can be bought in a store. Rather, they are obtained through specific events, or via the game’s natural progression.

Third Hypothesis: In a game where the ability to buy and sell weapons exists, a weapon is Legendary if and only if it cannot either be bought or sold for a profit.

Limitations: Again, this doesn’t apply to the first two games. Echoes allows the selling of weapons, but provides no way of buying them, so this hypothesis might not apply to it, either.

Counter-examples: We need only look as far as Mystery of the Emblem to encounter issues. In that game, the Falchion and the Starlight tome cannot be sold. However, the Archanean Regalia, the Aum Staff, Excalibur, Aura, and Divinestone can be sold – for quite a good sum of money, no less! Maybe not all of them are Legendary, but at least some of them must be. On the other side of the coin, let’s move ahead to the DS games. The Devil Sword – of which there are multiple in either game – cannot be sold in Shadow Dragon. Whereas in New Mystery, the Devil Sword can be sold for 0 Gold. Once again, my own hypotheses are pressuring me to accept Devil Weapons as “Legendary”. Another oddity are the S-rank weapons in FE7. While they have a high value – encouraging Rank-minded players to avoid exhausting their uses – there is no shop available after they are obtained. So, they may be programmed as “sellable”, but as a matter of course, there’s no opportunity to sell them. Does this hypothesis call them Legendary, or not? Should we even suspect them of Legendary status, since they came from nowhere and have no lore backing them up?

Verdict: Clearly, the rules are not consistent about selling them. Some weapons that are almost certainly non-Legendary either cannot be sold, or only sell for 0 Gold. Conversely, some weapons that are almost certainly Legendary can be sold for a profit. Even if a game is internally consistent about it, it’s hardly something that’s held true across the series. On the other hand, I think the “buying” part holds true. It’s hard to prove, but I cannot think of an instance in which a Legendary weapon can be purchased. Even the Secret Shops, which tend to sell rare weapons, staves, and items, tend to steer clear of any products that could vaguely be counted as “Legendary”.

 

Observation: Falchion – it’s one-of-a-kind! There’s nothing quite like it. Same with Forseti, Armads, Alondite, and the Lance of Ruin. Most weapons, you can obtain multiples of. Not so for the Legendary weapons. And not only are they one-of-a-kind to the player, but they don’t show up in enemy hands. Or if they do, it’s the same weapon that the player can use. While an enemy Swordmaster may use a totally different Wo Dao from your own Mia, the Alondite that the Black Knight uses is the same one that becomes available to the player.

Fourth Hypothesis: A weapon is Legendary if and only if it is one-of-a-kind within its particular game setting.

Limitations: I used the wording “particular game setting” to avoid some thorny questions. Like, is the Ragnell that Priam wields in Awakening the same as the Ragnell in Tellius, or is it different? How about the Parthia you can forge in Three Houses, versus the one that appears in the Archanea games? I’m not interested in answering this – maybe they are, or maybe they aren’t. Either way, they’re each one-of-a-kind within their particular settings.

Counter-examples: So, remember that observation that I made two minutes ago? Turns out, that was a blatant, knowing lie. In fact, you can get another Falchion in Shadow Dragon, if you happen to lose the first one. It’s given to Marth, by Nagi, at the Alterspire – which may be in a parallel universe, or outrealm, or deeprealm. Who honestly knows? Regardless, it has lower combat stats than the original Falchion, but the same name and icon. Of course, it’s not co-existing with the original Falchion, since Marth and co can only visit the Alterspire if he misses out on getting the sword, right? …Ha. Haha. Those are the foolish words of someone who hasn’t intentionally gotten Tiki, holding the Falchion, killed in chapter 24. Doing so returns the original Falchion to the Convoy, while also providing access to chapter 24x. And by using the Aum Staff, it’s possible for the player to have Tiki, Nagi, and both Falchions.

Also, in the finale of Verdant Wind, the enemy Gautier wields the Dark Lance of Ruin. It’s just a dark, messed-up version of the Lance of Ruin haha. Just a glimpse into my dark reality. A full stare into my twisted perspective would make most simply go insane lmao. Its exact provenance isn’t explained in the story (maybe in the library? Reading is for nerds, though), so it’s unclear how exactly it relates to the original Lance of Ruin. It has the exact same stats, but it doesn’t grant Gautier (who has the Crest of Gautier, like Sylvain) the ability to use Ruined Sky. So, not quite identical, but similar enough to raise a bunch of questions.

Finally, there are one-of-a-kind weapons that probably aren’t Legendary. Taking a look at Genealogy, there’s the Safeguard and the Barrier Blade. The former, obtained by Sylvia through a secret event in chapter 4, grants a boost to Defense. The latter, obtained by Laylea through a secret event in chapter 7, grants a boost to Resistance. Not only can neither of these weapons be obtained by any other means, but they also never show up in the enemy’s possession. They’re essentially “secret weapons” to Jugdral.

Verdict: Legendary weapons are usually one-of-a-kind, and one-of-a-kind weapons are usually Legendary. But not always. This hypothesis may be a tendency, but it’s not a rule.

 

Observation: Do you want to send Astram against Medeus with the Falchion in hand? How about Navarre, or Athena? No vay! In fact, the Falchion can only be equipped by Marth, in all of its mainline appearances. Likewise for the Ragnell, which is an Ike-exclusive. But its sister blade, Alondite, can be used by any unit – who has achieved the maximum rank (SS) in Swords. Armads works like this in FE6, being usable by any unit with S-rank Axes. Yet in FE7, it acts more like Falchion, exclusive to Hector. As for Forseti, it’s sort of a mix. It can be used by any unit with *-rank Wind magic, but having *-rank Wind Magic is dependent on being Lewyn, or else Lewyn’s child. Of course, there are non-legendary weapons that are exclusive to one or just a few characters, such as the Rapier in… most of its appearances.

Fifth Hypothesis: If a weapon is Legendary, then it will either be exclusively usable by a very limited pool of units, or else, it will be usable by any unit who has achieved the highest possible rank in the specified weapon type. By the contrapositive, if a weapon is not Prf-linked, and not at the highest rank, then it cannot be Legendary.

Limitations: Some games, namely the Valentian ones, don’t have weapon ranks at all. Is it fair to say that Gradivus is not legendary, solely because any Lance-wielder can use it? I’m not sure. I don’t like the idea of saying that “only Prf weapons are legendary in Gaiden/Echoes”.

Counter-examples: This statement might have been true before 2019. Of course, that year gave us Three Houses, the game with Hero’s Relics. These weapons, bizarrely, are at E-rank, meaning they’re usable regardless of how much training a unit has done in the specified weapon type. And despite the lore, telling you that they can only be wielded by the person with the proper Crest, they can instead be wielded by anyone. The only penalty is an HP loss when a Crestless unit uses one. Now, there is one benefit specific to certain characters – being able to use the associated combat art. So while Leonie (with no Crest) can use the Lance of Ruin (with an HP penalty), as can Ferdinand (with the Minor Crest of Cichol), only Sylvain (with the Minor Crest of Gautier) can use the Ruined Sky combat art. In that sense, it can be said that the ability to “bring out the full power of a Hero’s Relic” is limited to one character each. But the ability to equip it? Not so much.

Actually, another relatively clear counter-example has been with the series since the very beginning. It’s none other than the Starlight tome. This tome doesn’t have the best stats, and it’s not super-durable, but it is uniquely capable of overcoming Imhullu’s ability to nullify all damage. In that sense, it is uniquely capable of beating Gharnef. Perhaps that’s why, in the DS games, it only demands C-rank Tomes. Depending on the team the player has built, they may not have anyone with A-rank Tomes yet. Presumably, they didn’t want that to be a barrier to being able to take on Gharnef. Likewise, you don’t need to keep a specific unit alive in order to use it. In fact, there is no usable A-rank Tome – the highest-ranked are Excalibur and Aura, which are both B-rank, for anyone not named Merric or Linde, respectively. Starlight finds itself tied with clearly non-legendary tomes, such as Bolganone and Thoron. And in fact, in Old Mystery, Starlight demanded a lower weapon level (9) than either Bolganone (14) or Thoron (12) did. I’m fairly comfortable calling Starlight a Legendary tome, but by this hypothesis, it would not be.

Verdict: Once again, it’s a tendency, not a hard-and-fast rule. Most Legendary weapons are either limited to a single character (or a small pool of them), or else to those units who have achieved the highest rank in the specified weapon type. But not all of them – Starlight, and the Hero’s Relics, present pretty clear and convincing counter-examples.

 

So, what do you think? Have I made any mistakes in how I interpreted these hypotheses? Or, do you have a hypothesis of your own that you’d like to propose? I’m sure I could come up with more, but I want to save my audience a bit of reading (and myself, a bit of writing). Regardless, I’m curious to hear your thoughts on this matter.

[lenticular]

On 12/15/2023 at 10:11 PM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

So, what do you think? Have I made any mistakes in how I interpreted these hypotheses? Or, do you have a hypothesis of your own that you’d like to propose? I’m sure I could come up with more, but I want to save my audience a bit of reading (and myself, a bit of writing). Regardless, I’m curious to hear your thoughts on this matter.

I think that you are basically correct with all of these. They are all indicative of legendary status, but none of them are necessarily diagnostic. There are always going to be exceptions and weirdness where things just don't apply as you expect them to. And even if there are rules that seem to hold so far, then that doesn't necessarily mean that it's going to apply in the future as well. It's realtively easy to think up circumstances where any of these rules might be broken.

For instance, let's imagine that the next Fire Emblem game has weapon durability, but it also gives every class a free infinite-durability bronze weapon that is glued to their inventory, to make sure that it's never possible for a character to be completely without a weapon. If this were to happen, then we obviously wouldn't say that the bronze lance is legendary because it has infinite uses in a game with durability. We'd just decide that what had previously looked like a rule actually doesn't apply any more.

Or maybe next game is a far-future Magvel sequel and the Sacred Twins have all been scattered to the winds and we are tasked with finding and retrieving them. It turns out that we find Sieglinde in an old antique shop, where the proprietor sells it to us, not knowing what he has. Again, we wouldn't decide that this means that Sieglinde isn't legendary; we'd just decide that the rule about legendary weapons not being for sale isn't actually universally applicable.

Which isn't to say that I think either of these possibilities will or should happen. But they're well within the bounds of plausibility, and if it's easy to imagine a circumstance that would make us reevaluate our rules, then they probably aren't very good rules to begin with. Or at least, they aren't any good if we are looking for hard-and-fast diagnostic rules. It's reasonable to note them as things that usually apply, but not more than that.

On 12/15/2023 at 10:11 PM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Counter-examples: Again, I don’t know of any immediately – I had to look up the “Dragonstones have infinite durability in FE1” bit – but it’s possible someone more knowledgeable of the early games could correct me. That said, there is one clear counter-example… except that it’s unclear whether it should apply. See, in Tellius, the Laguz exist. And they fight with their Fangs, or Talons, or other appendages of choice. These “weapons” have infinite durability, but of course they’re not Legendary. Sure, maybe Nailah’s “Great Fang” could be called Legendary, since she’s the Queen of Hatari, but there’s no way the same could apply to Volug’s Fang, or Lyre’s Claw. It seems like a contradiction, but I would argue that what the Laguz use in battle aren’t technically “weapons”. In fact, that’s the whole point of the Laguz – they don’t use Beorc weapons, fighting instead with their bodies. In that case, they wouldn’t be “weapons with infinite durability”, so the hypothesis would not apply to them.

Three Houses Unarmed Fighting would also fall into this category, as I remember well from my no iems challenge run of that game. Of course, the only two characters who get Unarmed Fighting as part of their defaul class progression are Rapahel and Balthus, and Balthus's fists are obviously and self-evidently legendary.

One other thing that I have thought of with regards legendary weapons is this: does membership of a legendary group automatically make an individual weapon legendary? The Sacred Twins are legendary, but does it necessarily follow that, eg, Audhulma is legendary as a result? Or what about Blutgang? The Heroes Relics are collectively legendary, but in story, Blutgang was lost and forgotten from the group. Is it still legendary or not?