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A Thief named Thief (need help getting some info on Genealogy arena enemeis)


Jotari
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So a while back I composed a list of every character in the Fire Emblem series. This includes the Genealogy of Holy War arena enemies, but one thing has never sat right with me. I took the names from the Arena Data on Serenes, and the last arena enemy you fight in Chapter 5 is a Thief Fighter named Thief...and...uh...is that really true? I've always had this suspicion that maybe someone put the class where they meant to put the name. But, the Fire Emblem Wiki also lists a Thief Fighter named Thief in their Arena data for Doorway To Destiny. So I guess there is genuinely a dude in Jugdral going by the name of Thief who is a thief.

That's not to only question I have about Arena enemies though. According to the wiki, in Chapter 3 the final arena enemy if you're using a bow is an Arch Knight named Luigi. But on the Serenes arena data said Bow Knight is called Mario...okay so there's definitely some reference being thrown around here, but which is it? The same enemy also seems to show up in the final chapter (dude had a long arena career) as the wiki names another Arch Knight named Luigi in endgame while Serenes names another Arch Knight named Mario. One would think we'd have both a Mario and a Luigi, but it turns out all the arena enemies in the final chapter, with the exception of the final arena enemy Zeus, were arena enemies from throughout the game, which is kind of cool.

Also, on Serenes the first enemy in Chapter 9 and the last in Chapter 10 are both called Indra while on the wiki the first in Chapter 9 is called Sakra. That feels like a mistake too. I'd say the wiki is probably correct and that we only fight Indra once.

So, anyway, yeah, if anyone out there has a save file for every Genealogy chapter, or happens to have a save file for chapters 3, 5, 9, 10 and Endgame, can you check for me wether there's a Thief named Thief, whether it's Mario or Luigi cameoing in Genealogy or if Indra or Sakra are fought in Chapter 9 and 10. Alternatively, what I'd really love to have is a list of all these character names in Japanese so I can make my own decisions about what the best translations for their names are.

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Pegasusknight.com to the rescue!

Seems it is indeed Thief. He's シーフ the シーフファイター. So it seems he does have the Thief part of Thief Fighter in his name.

No Luigi, it's just Mario in both Chapter 3 and the Endgame. No actual Luigi either anywhere else.

Don't know where Sakra comes from. Doesn't look there's anyone named that. It's just Indra both times.

Edited by Acacia Sgt
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3 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Pegasusknight.com to the rescue!

Seems it is indeed Thief. He's シーフ the シーフファイター. So it seems he does have the Thief part of Thief Fighter in his name.

No Luigi, it's just Mario in both Chapter 3 and the Endgame. No actual Luigi either anywhere else.

Don't know where Sakra comes from. Doesn't look there's anyone named that. It's just Indra both times.

Oh wow. So the Serenes data is right? I was genuinely expecting the wiki to be more accurate since the Serenes page is still throwing around names like Holyn. Good old Pegasusknight.com. Should have thought of that myself.

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1 minute ago, Jotari said:

Oh wow. So the Serenes data is right? I was genuinely expecting the wiki to be more accurate since the Serenes page is still throwing around names like Holyn. Good old Pegasusknight.com. Should have thought of that myself.

Well, with Holyn you can at least say it's outdated, not wrong.

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7 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Well, with Holyn you can at least say it's outdated, not wrong.

Still I'd expect the more recent data to be more accurate. Wonder how the wiki users came to use Luigi. Was it a joke by one of the more recent translation teams?

Also a bit weird you end up fighting Indra twice and that she goes from a Social Knight with Zero Magic to a Queen with 21. Quite a transition for one chapter if it's not just two characters with the same name XD Unlike all the final chapter enemies which retain their class with earlier arena enemies with the same name.

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23 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Still I'd expect the more recent data to be more accurate. Wonder how the wiki users came to use Luigi. Was it a joke by one of the more recent translation teams?

Also a bit weird you end up fighting Indra twice and that she goes from a Social Knight with Zero Magic to a Queen with 21. Quite a transition for one chapter if it's not just two characters with the same name XD Unlike all the final chapter enemies which retain their class with earlier arena enemies with the same name.

I wonder if they did it to separate them. Since as you say, the double Indra seems weird. Luigi might be deliberate for the reference, since I doubt they missed the fact some Arena fighters reappear in the Endgame.

---

EDIT: Okay, found videos with the old patch.

It's Mario in Chapter 3

And Indra in Chapter 9

My verdict: The new fantranslation deliberately changed them, and the wiki, for some reason, thought they were official. So yeah.

Edited by Acacia Sgt
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37 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

I wonder if they did it to separate them. Since as you say, the double Indra seems weird. Luigi might be deliberate for the reference, since I doubt they missed the fact some Arena fighters reappear in the Endgame.

Weird reference to change Mario to Luigi. You'd think they'd keep Mario and change someone else to Luigi though.

Some other things I've discovered now that I have access to the original Japanese names.

*Serenes lists a character called Doma, while the wiki lists one called Duma. Seems an obvious reference to Gaiden's final boss? Actually...no. Gaiden's final boss actually is called Doma while this character is actually called Duma. Which I've chosen to render as Dumas, because not only does my google translate render it as such, but I've looked it up and that is how Japan renders french author Alexanre Dumas' name (of course Duma and French Dumas are pronunced the same, but at least Dumas is more a name than Duma).

*While the Duma reference actually is non existent, a Hestia reference is. Serenes calls the character Heste while the wiki calls them Hester, but they actually have the same kana as the Gaiden boss. There's no sign of Marla though, so it might be a coincidence (though there is the very close Miria, but they're rendered differently).

*The Thief called Thief might actually be a pun? Because Thief rendered in katakana is actually Shifu. Shifu sounds like a name, doesn't it? Isn't that the name of the guy in King Fu Panda, and generally a name for teacher? Man, language is so weird. Thief translated to Japanese becomes the word Teacher in Chinese. Really wavering on wether it's funnier to call this guy Thief or the more name like Shifu. And I'm not so curious to see what an official loclaization or remake would do with all these names. Becuase a tonne of them have end up becoming references to characters in future and past games. There's a Castor, a Gazak, a Klein, a Geese, a Louis, a Roland, Atlas, Dice and Wolf (every Kaga game has a Wolf fun fact). I still haven't confirmed if a lot of these are identical in Japanese, and of course it's born from the result of Fire Emblem being one of the biggest naming projects in the world and there being 10 arena enemies per chapter leading to just a tonne of names that some crossover is inevitable, but it's still kind of fun.

 

EDIT: Indra isn't the only name that pops up outside of Endgame. You fight a Rip in chapter 1 and chapter 5. First as an Arch Knight then as a Bow Knight. I guess he/she lost his/her horse at some point (I say he/she because I don't know if it's meant to be Rip like Rip Van Winkle, or Lip like that one puzzle game).

Edited by Jotari
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I wonder if, in universe, the dude was born named Thief so he became a thief because of it, if it was just a strange coincidence, or if he named himself Thief after choosing the occupation. Maybe it'd be more strange if his name was Thief but he was not a thief...

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7 hours ago, Jotari said:

*While the Duma reference actually is non existent, a Hestia reference is. Serenes calls the character Heste while the wiki calls them Hester, but they actually have the same kana as the Gaiden boss. There's no sign of Marla though, so it might be a coincidence (though there is the very close Miria, but they're rendered differently).

I do feel some name references could indeed just be coincidences. Considering Genealogy's Heste/Hestia is a Bow Fighter, and not a magic class. Same could be for Mario, at the end of the day. A Bow Knight? Would've been more obvious if he had been a Hammer wielding Warrior or something. Then again, back then Mario was already quite popular, so I doubt they'd use the name and not be some kind of reference...

7 hours ago, Jotari said:

*The Thief called Thief might actually be a pun? Because Thief rendered in katakana is actually Shifu. Shifu sounds like a name, doesn't it? Isn't that the name of the guy in King Fu Panda, and generally a name for teacher? Man, language is so weird. Thief translated to Japanese becomes the word Teacher in Chinese. Really wavering on wether it's funnier to call this guy Thief or the more name like Shifu. And I'm not so curious to see what an official loclaization or remake would do with all these names. Becuase a tonne of them have end up becoming references to characters in future and past games. There's a Castor, a Gazak, a Klein, a Geese, a Louis, a Roland, Atlas, Dice and Wolf (every Kaga game has a Wolf fun fact). I still haven't confirmed if a lot of these are identical in Japanese, and of course it's born from the result of Fire Emblem being one of the biggest naming projects in the world and there being 10 arena enemies per chapter leading to just a tonne of names that some crossover is inevitable, but it's still kind of fun.

Part of me feels they might rename almost all of them, specially those that could match with playable characters, even if from other games.

7 hours ago, Jotari said:

EDIT: Indra isn't the only name that pops up outside of Endgame. You fight a Rip in chapter 1 and chapter 5. First as an Arch Knight then as a Bow Knight. I guess he/she lost his/her horse at some point (I say he/she because I don't know if it's meant to be Rip like Rip Van Winkle, or Lip like that one puzzle game).

Unsurprisingly, the new translation goes for calling one Lipp and the other Lipton. Surprisingly the wiki doesn't match this, in a curious deviation from using the fan patch names.

Edited by Acacia Sgt
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9 hours ago, Jotari said:

EDIT: Indra isn't the only name that pops up outside of Endgame. You fight a Rip in chapter 1 and chapter 5. First as an Arch Knight then as a Bow Knight. I guess he/she lost his/her horse at some point (I say he/she because I don't know if it's meant to be Rip like Rip Van Winkle, or Lip like that one puzzle game).

To the best of my knowledge, Arch Knight and Bow Knight are male-exclusive classes in Genealogy. So that's what I'd assume the Arena enemy to be.

3 hours ago, ARMADS!!! said:

I wonder if, in universe, the dude was born named Thief so he became a thief because of it, if it was just a strange coincidence, or if he named himself Thief after choosing the occupation. Maybe it'd be more strange if his name was Thief but he was not a thief...

It's hard to find work in any of the noble families, when you put "Thief" at the top of your resume.

Some real Major Major Major Major energy here.

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5 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Considering Genealogy's Heste/Hestia is a Bow Fighter, and not a magic class. Same could be for Mario, at the end of the day. A Bow Knight? Would've been more obvious if he had been a Hammer wielding Warrior or something. 

Mario is just too big a name for any context in gaming, particularly a Nintendo game, to just pop up accidentally without any thought going to the plumber. The other as coincidence I can definitely buy, even though names like Kashim (Castor) are kind of specific, but Mario, nah they must have done that on purpose.

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7 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Mario is just too big a name for any context in gaming, particularly a Nintendo game, to just pop up accidentally without any thought going to the plumber. The other as coincidence I can definitely buy, even though names like Kashim (Castor) are kind of specific, but Mario, nah they must have done that on purpose.

Yes, as I pointed out right in the next sentence. For a company under the Nintendo umbrella, even more so.

Still, one mustn't forget there is still a chance for something to just be a coincidence. Not for this Mario, perhaps, but there can always be one...

Edited by Acacia Sgt
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17 hours ago, Jotari said:

(every Kaga game has a Wolf fun fact)

Well? Make a new thread and document every example! I demand documentation!

18 hours ago, Jotari said:

So I guess there is genuinely a dude in Jugdral going by the name of Thief who is a thief.

11 hours ago, ARMADS!!! said:

I wonder if, in universe, the dude was born named Thief so he became a thief because of it, if it was just a strange coincidence, or if he named himself Thief after choosing the occupation. Maybe it'd be more strange if his name was Thief but he was not a thief...

This is clearly a reference to Link's Awakening. Just like how you fight Mario in the arena, you also fight Link- only it's Link after he steals from the Koholint shop and becomes intrinsically branded as a thief forever.

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1 hour ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

Well? Make a new thread and document every example! I demand documentation!

I have considered it, but it felt too trivial to make a full thread about. But since you ask.

FE1: Wolf, Hardin's man

FE2: Wolff, the Sniper in that desert archerfest chapter

FE3: Wolf, Hardin's guy again

FE4:Arena enemy Wolf

BS Saga: 3/3 on the purple haired guy

FE5: The boss who chases Leif's retreating army in that one chapter where Bloom shows up really briefly (same guy as the Arena enemy? Maybe, one's a baron and one's a general).

As for the original Japanese, they all share the same name except the Archanean Wolf. He's ウルフ while the others are ウォルフ. That ォ symbol means the bowl should be slightly longer and more like an 'o'. So it's like Wulf vs Wolf in English. Practically the same but some slightly different stress.

No idea about Kaga's other games, but I'll be disappointed if at least the animal doesn't show up in some form.

1 hour ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

This is clearly a reference to Link's Awakening. Just like how you fight Mario in the arena, you also fight Link- only it's Link after he steals from the Koholint shop and becomes intrinsically branded as a thief forever.

Pure perfection.

Edited by Jotari
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Another point of Arena name trivia, the first enemy of Chapter 2 is an Axe Fighter named Zero. Who, until we get any word otherwise, I can only assume is the Zero Emblem Sombron was looking for! Presumably after his career arena fighting Agustria he went on to do something impressive enough to warrent becoming an Emblem.

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14 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Looking at the Katakana, it's Jiro, not Zero. Zero would be ゼロ, not ジロー.

Curses. The search continues.

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