Should future FE games feature customizable avatars?

[𝐍𝐲𝐪𝐮𝐢𝐥]

I believe they shouldn't. 

When I played through Three Houses for the first time recently, I thought to myself "Why could I rename Byleth but not actually customize his appearance?". I think interactions with your students and the other characters would feel a lot more personal if the protagonist had a set name, instead of constantly being called Professor. If you're going to have the option of changing the protagonists name, you minus well go all the way and let the player customize the appearance as well. Only having the option of changing their name just seems pointless to me.

(Just realized a similar post was made last month, good job me.)

Edited January 20 by 𝐍𝐲𝐪𝐮𝐢𝐥

[indigoasis]

Having the option to customize the avatar is nice, but as someone that usually goes with "the default settings" anyway, I wouldn't necessarily miss it either. However, to echo a sentiment of mine from that similar thread made last month, I see avatars like Byleth and Alear like Link from The Legend of Zelda (pre-BotW) because you can name them (and Epona in Twilight Princess) pretty much whatever you want and the game's text will account for that whenever possible, which still feels so cool because it's like the player leaving their mark on the world of the game.

However, since TH, Engage, and BotW/TotK all feature voice acting, they end up making different sacrifices; Byleth and Alear are given titles to be called by while retaining the ability to be named something stupid by the player, and Link is just called Link. I think both approaches work fine enough given the focus on narrative (where applicable), but it ends up making things more impersonal, if that make sense. It's a difficult balance to strike between connecting the player to the game and connecting the character to the world.

[ARMADS!!!]

 I don't think it's necessary for you to have the ability of changing the appearence of the Avatar, just choosing the gender is fine (and even that is not completely necessary, at least for me), for me the avatar is just the character that represents you and you see stuff from their eyes, Mark was like this in FE7 and I found it alright, just like the avatar you have on Pokemon games (or at least up until the gen III games, not sure if they're still uncustomizable). I also like when they have a default design.

 

3 hours ago, 𝐍𝐲𝐪𝐮𝐢𝐥 said:

(Just realized a similar post was made last month, good job me.)

I don't remember exactly what was it, but I think the other thread was more about customizable names and how it'd work on games with voice acting (though I'm not sure)

[LeahScott]

Thanks for the info, I appreciate it. I also want to know it.

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

I see no downside to changing the physical appearance of an Avatar?

I´m sure it can be programmed such that the player´s chosen name be displayed instead of [generic title], but that would be additional effort. DOnt the names change in the other games anyway?

[Coreyographed]

I don't know that "should" is necessarily the right question here. While I certainly enjoy fully customizable characters, I also enjoy following a set protagonist. To me, this also presents certain elements of gameplay-story integration.

Let's look at Robin. Robin starts as a tactician, you can do either swords or magic, you can customize their appearance, you can choose what stats to be good and bad in. Regardless, Robin's character is a tactician. There is also no voice acting, so whatever you name Robin is what the characters call them. Outside of the Grima stuff, I really enjoy Robin's integration into the story.

Let's look at Corrin. You can now choose a reclass option to have in addition to choosing all the options from Robin as opposed to being able to reclass into anything. I personally like this more, but Corrin is also very bland to me and I do not enjoy Corrin's integration into the story more. You can do magic or physical, you can ride a wyvern, be a ninja, or wear heavy armor. Still a malleable character gameplay-wise, but overall doesn't leave me with a distinct taste somehow, even compared to Robin who should in theory have less uniqueness.

Now, let's look at Ike. Ike cannot be renamed. Ike cannot change classes. Ike is a sword-wielding hero who cannot have a magic-boon or luck-bane. Ike is Ike, and Tellius is Ike's (and others, etc.) story. It is not my story or whatever I want to call Ike. And I like Ike's story.

 

"Should" fire emblem use avatars? Maybe. I only care if it's implemented well. If there's no reason for them to have been fully customizable, then... eh, I don't really care. But if I can name the character, and it's a game full of reclassing like recent entries, then I don't just want to name the character. Let me choose what stat they're good at, let me choose what boons (a missed opportunity in Three Houses) or what their innate proficiency is (Engage). If you let me name them, then let me choose how the character plays. If Ike is Ike, then I'll play Ike like Ike and be perfectly happy.

[GlitchWarrior]

My take? Alear is not an Avatar. They are a player character, but not an Avatar. Alear has a fully defined character and a minor arc as well. I could say the same thing for Shez. Byleth is... a different issue. Byleth is a character,  but the game very much refuses to acknowledge that, both because they barely speak or emote, and even the captions call Byleth "Professor" or some other title. Like... at least Engage had the dignity to name Alear in subtitles sometimes. As such, despite being in the same mold as the above two, I don't connect with Byleth as much.

Customization is what makes an "avatar" for me. Can you really say Byleth is you? Can you say Alear is you? By comparison, you can alter the appearances, stats, and (in the 3ds games at least) even voice of Kris (again, voice doesn't apply here), Robin and Corrin, so they feel like your character. And in Robin's case, despite having a defined character, doesn't have a character that is overly pandered to as the "real hero" like Kris until the end, nor do you feel insulted by their character because the writers played it too safe like with Corrin.

But you don't need customization to slot into a Fire Emblem character. You can do that through a player character that isn't an avatar. Case in point? When I played the first act of Shadows of Valentia, I felt like I was Alm. I've said this in the past, but in Alm's side of SoV you really don't feel like you're controlling Alm. Maybe I'm just a sucker for the awkward everyman. It felt a lot better than when Celica was in command.

At their core, Fire Emblem games are strategy RPGs, and roleplaying involves feeling like you are that character. It's much easier to feel like I am Robin, or Alm, or Alear, and I actively feel like I do them. When I'm controlling Corrin, Celica or Byleth, I don't think, "hey, that's me," I think "hey, that's my lord" and I start to treat them differently.

…I might be far off topic. My take is, I really don't care whether avatars are customizable. It'd be nice, but not necessary - Alm proves that by not being customizable at all (granted, he's the main lord of a remake, so that was never going to be an option). Just make them a character I can get in the mind of... one I can truly *feel* like.

[Samz707]

21 hours ago, GlitchWarrior said:

My take? Alear is not an Avatar. They are a player character, but not an Avatar. Alear has a fully defined character and a minor arc as well. I could say the same thing for Shez. Byleth is... a different issue. Byleth is a character,  but the game very much refuses to acknowledge that, both because they barely speak or emote, and even the captions call Byleth "Professor" or some other title. Like... at least Engage had the dignity to name Alear in subtitles sometimes. As such, despite being in the same mold as the above two, I don't connect with Byleth as much.

Customization is what makes an "avatar" for me. Can you really say Byleth is you? Can you say Alear is you? By comparison, you can alter the appearances, stats, and (in the 3ds games at least) even voice of Kris (again, voice doesn't apply here), Robin and Corrin, so they feel like your character. And in Robin's case, despite having a defined character, doesn't have a character that is overly pandered to as the "real hero" like Kris until the end, nor do you feel insulted by their character because the writers played it too safe like with Corrin.

But you don't need customization to slot into a Fire Emblem character. You can do that through a player character that isn't an avatar. Case in point? When I played the first act of Shadows of Valentia, I felt like I was Alm. I've said this in the past, but in Alm's side of SoV you really don't feel like you're controlling Alm. Maybe I'm just a sucker for the awkward everyman. It felt a lot better than when Celica was in command.

At their core, Fire Emblem games are strategy RPGs, and roleplaying involves feeling like you are that character. It's much easier to feel like I am Robin, or Alm, or Alear, and I actively feel like I do them. When I'm controlling Corrin, Celica or Byleth, I don't think, "hey, that's me," I think "hey, that's my lord" and I start to treat them differently.

…I might be far off topic. My take is, I really don't care whether avatars are customizable. It'd be nice, but not necessary - Alm proves that by not being customizable at all (granted, he's the main lord of a remake, so that was never going to be an option). Just make them a character I can get in the mind of... one I can truly *feel* like.

Eh, I'm of the opposite opinion.

Robin and Corrin are the exact same for every single player, they say basically the same things every time, every place, they are the exact same person (Which really isn't a good thing especially for them) just with a different cosmetic coat of paint.

Byleth meanwhile has actual dialogue choices and even has one mid-game dialogue choice that actually matters outside of support point gain (the CF route split) so IMO I feel like Byleth is more of an actual Avatar for the player, stuff like the Linhardt support for instance are more interesting than just changing their hair style:

 

• Linhardt: It's just... I was wondering why it seems as if no one values their own lives. Why do we fight until we die? Why do we kill without hesitation? I hate it. I don't like taking lives or even the sight of blood. In the last battle, some of the soldiers under my command died for foolish reasons. Those soldiers could have pulled back... Instead, they kept fighting...and were overrun. Am I supposed to be satisfied with the victory alone? Even at the cost of such life?
• Byleth:
  • Choice 1: No, I couldn't be satisfied with that.
  • Choice 2: Yes, I could be satisfied with that.
• Linhardt:
  • Choice 1 response: Exactly. I don't see the point. Honor? That's a foolish reason to give your life. Glory? Even worse.
  • Choice 2 response: Really? I— Trading someone's life for a bit of honor and glory... You'll pardon me if I say I find that repulsive.

While sadly the game doesn't consistently do this, this makes Byleth far more of an avatar since we are allowed to (Not very much and not for much impact admittingly) actually decide how they feel about certain things. (Now if only the game had an alternative dialogue path that let you be more "Ashen Demon" than friendly teacher consistently.)

So I'm honestly of the opinion that Byleth is the first real avatar we've gotten since Mark, even if the game sadly doesn't lean into this as much as it should, you and someone else's Byleth could have said or acted in somewhat different ways consistently due to the many little dialogue choices. (which is imo a step in the right direction.)

It's why I consider Shez a downgrade, Shez is more of just a fixed character that you can swap the gender of, they're an actually likable "Non-Avatar Avatar" this time around but still not really an Avatar. 

 

[Metal Flash]

If future games are gonna include Avatars, I believe they should go all the way. Let us determine their appearance, class, stats, personality, gender etc. Make them actually feel like "MY unit" instead of "unit you can somewhat alter". If they insist on continuing with the current style, at least go back to them being side characters like Kris and Robin.

[ARMADS!!!]

Ah, I said before what I think of the option of being able to choose the avatar's appearence, but I forgot to say that I like it better when there's no avatar, also of you're gonna do something like Mark then REALLY don't do it at all (I mean, who the hell connected more to Mark than to the actual main characters?). It's just my personal opinion though, Im not really a fan of self insert, but rather of simply relating to the characters and connecting to them without feeling like I have to be part of the story in any way, and when you don't want to participate in self insert and it's there then it feels a bit corny (it doesn't feel corny like on Pokémon, because of the way it's done, in FE it bothers me a bit), so if it depended only on me, the games would not have avatars at all.

[Keikyushi]

On 1/22/2024 at 8:17 PM, Imuabicus der Fertige said:

I´m sure it can be programmed such that the player´s chosen name be displayed instead of [generic title], but that would be additional effort. DOnt the names change in the other games anyway?

In Hoyoverse games, the player's name is displayed on the text, but voice lines usually replace it with titles, or just cut it off completely (in a way that still makes the sentence doesn't sound awkward). I think that's one way to acknowlege player's custom name without sacrificing full voice-acting, though the discrepancy between what I see and what I hear is jarring sometimes.

15 hours ago, Samz707 said:

It's why I consider Shez a downgrade, Shez is more of just a fixed character that you can swap the gender of, they're an actually likable "Non-Avatar Avatar" this time around but still not really an Avatar. 

This I don't get. Shez does have dialogue choices showing different personalities, and gameplay choices just like Byleth. I don't think they are any downgrade in term of Avatar-ness compared to Byleth

Edited January 24 by Keikyushi

[Etrurian emperor]

 

Rather than customize the looks of the avatar I actually think it be far more rewarding if we could customize their personality. Have us decide whether they're a gentle Marth or a blunt Hector, or have your character gradually turn into one based on the choices you select throughout the game. To some extend this has already been done. When Hector takes over scenes from Eliwood in Hector mode then what he says is usually the same. The difference is how he says it. 

On 1/22/2024 at 10:58 PM, GlitchWarrior said:

Customization is what makes an "avatar" for me. Can you really say Byleth is you? Can you say Alear is you? By comparison, you can alter the appearances, stats, and (in the 3ds games at least) even voice of Kris (again, voice doesn't apply here), Robin and Corrin, so they feel like your character.

Personally I think Corrin's the character of who'm its by far the hardest to say is you. Out of all the avatars he has by far the most aggressively established personality. Corrin always being the extremely naive, gentle and sensitive bleeding hearts leaves very little chances for a player to imprint themselves on Corrin. What doesn't help either is that Corrin's actions are the ones players are most likely to not want him to take. 

Edited January 24 by Etrurian emperor

[Samz707]

5 hours ago, Keikyushi said:

In Hoyoverse games, the player's name is displayed on the text, but voice lines usually replace it with titles, or just cut it off completely (in a way that still makes the sentence doesn't sound awkward). I think that's one way to acknowlege player's custom name without sacrificing full voice-acting, though the discrepancy between what I see and what I hear is jarring sometimes.

This I don't get. Shez does have dialogue choices showing different personalities, and gameplay choices just like Byleth. I don't think they are any downgrade in term of Avatar-ness compared to Byleth

At least so far, I can't recall as many of them feeling as drastic as the Linhardt one, Shez just feels more like a predefined character to me.

It's still better than the 3DS Avatars but I feel that more's condemning just how shallow and terrible they are than any real praise for Shez. 

 

4 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

 

Rather than customize the looks of the avatar I actually think it be far more rewarding if we could customize their personality. Have us decide whether they're a gentle Marth or a blunt Hector, or have your character gradually turn into one based on the choices you select throughout the game. To some extend this has already been done. When Hector takes over scenes from Eliwood in Hector mode then what he says is usually the same. The difference is how he says it. 

Personally I think Corrin's the character of who'm its by far the hardest to say is you. Out of all the avatars he has by far the most aggressively established personality. Corrin always being the extremely naive, gentle and sensitive bleeding hearts leaves very little chances for a player to imprint themselves on Corrin. What doesn't help either is that Corrin's actions are the ones players are most likely to not want him to take. 

3H would have been peak if we let Byleth be more "Ashen Demon" like in that Linhardt  support.

Yeah Corrin is just flatout a fixed character and not even remotely a likable one like Shez is. 

Edited January 24 by Samz707

[Etrurian emperor]

6 hours ago, Samz707 said:

Yeah Corrin is just flatout a fixed character and not even remotely a likable one like Shez is. 

Personally I think its more that they're stuck into the wrong role. The Corrins are sweet, helpful and dorky. As a person they're as nice as can be. The problem is that their personality is incomparable with leading an army and that due to being an avatar they're never allowed to grow into a real leader or have the plot directly cast attention to how unsuited and dense they are. 

When freed of the burden of being a main character such as in Heroes or Warriors I find them plenty likable. The same happens to Xander who's improved by leaps and bounds when no longer shackled to the role he had in Fates. 

[Samz707]

1 hour ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Personally I think its more that they're stuck into the wrong role. The Corrins are sweet, helpful and dorky. As a person they're as nice as can be. The problem is that their personality is incomparable with leading an army and that due to being an avatar they're never allowed to grow into a real leader or have the plot directly cast attention to how unsuited and dense they are. 

When freed of the burden of being a main character such as in Heroes or Warriors I find them plenty likable. The same happens to Xander who's improved by leaps and bounds when no longer shackled to the role he had in Fates. 

And they do incredibly dumb things.

Like Corrin 

Spoiler

literally letting Takumi shoot them in the face, even if it wasn't possessed Takumi, you think the guy who absolutely hates Nohr is just gonna stop at killing you and not keep trying to kill Nohr soldiers trying to invade his country?

There is no way you can write stuff like that and not have me eventually just think that this character deserves to die for their stupidity.

Spoiler

Which Corrin does but then gets revived because....plot armor I guess.

Corrin also says alot of dumb things which makes it hard for me to root for them, the 4 hours I managed to play of Valkyria Chronicles had this issue where Welkin was an unlikable dumbass for me which is part of why I dropped it. (He unironically tries to say something among the lines of  "we should all get along like animals in nature" to be anti-war, which is objectively wrong, he is also supposed to be someone who's knowledgable on nature.) 

If I don't like the main character, it gets alot harder to enjoy something. (And both games not having good gameplay didn't help.) 

Edited January 25 by Samz707

[Hrothgar777]

For me, the answer boils down to: is your avatar an important, compelling character? If not, then sure. Make him/her customizable. If yes, then keep his/her appearance fixed.

 

A character's look is part of what makes them iconic. Imagine playing through Three Houses for the very first time, and before booting up the game you were allowed to play with Edelgard/Dimitri/Claude/Rhea's appearances as though you were using a Mii Maker app. Even assuming they did have a "default" that looked like what they do in canon, imagine you didn't care at the time (since you were unfamiliar with these characters) so you made them look silly. Wouldn't that detract from the weight of a story which revolved around them?

 

If the avatar is just a player self-insert who almost never says anything, or if they speak but are totally vanilla like Alear, then it doesn't matter. Otherwise...

 

(EDIT: I'd like to add that customized appearance makes it impossible to have things like gorgeously rendered cutscenes or illustrations which feature them.)

Edited January 25 by Hrothgar777

[ARMADS!!!]

5 hours ago, Samz707 said:

And they do incredibly dumb things.

Like Corrin 

  Hide contents

literally letting Takumi shoot them in the face, even if it wasn't possessed Takumi, you think the guy who absolutely hates Nohr is just gonna stop at killing you and not keep trying to kill Nohr soldiers trying to invade his country?

There is no way you can write stuff like that and not have me eventually just think that this character deserves to die for their stupidity.

  Hide contents

Which Corrin does but then gets revived because....plot armor I guess.

Corrin also says alot of dumb things which makes it hard for me to root for them, the 4 hours I managed to play of Valkyria Chronicles had this issue where Welkin was an unlikable dumbass for me which is part of why I dropped it. (He unironically tries to say something among the lines of  "we should all get along like animals in nature" to be anti-war, which is objectively wrong, he is also supposed to be someone who's knowledgable on nature.) 

If I don't like the main character, it gets alot harder to enjoy something. (And both games not having good gameplay didn't help.) 

Oh yeah, also wasn't it Corrin too who wanted to win a whole fucking war without killing anyone? That's a whole new level of imbecile.

 

Spoiler

Granted, they somehow did it (or almost did), but the fact that they even thought of that is ridiculous. Also, didn't they stop to consider that crippling every soldier would make them go back home not being able to work and since everyone is crippled, the Kingdom/government/whatever would have a pretty hard time supporting all of them after the war? Corrin is the OG cause of inlfation.

 

5 hours ago, Hrothgar777 said:

For me, the answer boils down to: is your avatar an important, compelling character? If not, then sure. Make him/her customizable. If yes, then keep his/her appearance fixed.

 

A character's look is part of what makes them iconic. Imagine playing through Three Houses for the very first time, and before booting up the game you were allowed to play with Edelgard/Dimitri/Claude/Rhea's appearances as though you were using a Mii Maker app. Even assuming they did have a "default" that looked like what they do in canon, imagine you didn't care at the time (since you were unfamiliar with these characters) so you made them look silly. Wouldn't that detract from the weight of a story which revolved around them?

 

If the avatar is just a player self-insert who almost never says anything, or if they speak but are totally vanilla like Alear, then it doesn't matter. Otherwise...

 

(EDIT: I'd like to add that customized appearance makes it impossible to have things like gorgeously rendered cutscenes or illustrations which feature them.)

 Maybe having just some 4 or 5 options of clothes to switch to wouldn't be a bad idea (or options of fully-made character to choose from like FEH). Also, I know it's not FE related so sorta irrelevant here but Sonic Force's cutscenes with the avatar look pretty good, or, for a more comparable case, Mortal Kombat X's skins look pretty good on the cutscenes. Of course, the official art would featured the original clothes (or if there were only a few options for outfits, could even have the others too). That's just an idea, it's not that I find it better that way, I personally like it better when they're not even customizable at all (because Im not a fan of avatars) but I think my idea would be an acceptable common ground.

[Etrurian emperor]

Another aspect to consider is that customizing your avatar is mostly meaningless anyway. Even if you get the option IS is pretty open about this not being the intended experience. Whoever you make or name won't be Robin. When there's a crossover it will always just be default Robin with his default voice and his default appearance. No crossover ever had him keep the hood on and name him ''the tactician''. And in cases where avatars don't have a personality so you can imprint on them they will get a personality when appearing in later titles. 

And I get that. Giving Byleth a personalty in Hopes was the better option, just putting default Robin in Smash and Heroes was the better option. But it still highlights the futility of customizing an avatar when IS is so clearly going to stick with the default options and give them a personality in the next title anyway. 

[Samz707]

On 1/26/2024 at 3:16 PM, Etrurian emperor said:

Another aspect to consider is that customizing your avatar is mostly meaningless anyway. Even if you get the option IS is pretty open about this not being the intended experience. Whoever you make or name won't be Robin. When there's a crossover it will always just be default Robin with his default voice and his default appearance. No crossover ever had him keep the hood on and name him ''the tactician''. And in cases where avatars don't have a personality so you can imprint on them they will get a personality when appearing in later titles. 

And I get that. Giving Byleth a personalty in Hopes was the better option, just putting default Robin in Smash and Heroes was the better option. But it still highlights the futility of customizing an avatar when IS is so clearly going to stick with the default options and give them a personality in the next title anyway. 

I'm of the opposite opinion, I believe Heroes should have used versions of these characters with a few of their alternative design/personality choices in Heroes, it's a god damn multiverse where the Heroes aren't even from the same timeline as each other, I see this less as "customization is bad" and more "Heroes being lazy". 

If anything I'm dissapointed we never got a more "cold" Byleth in Heroes. (The kind that would pick B in that Linhardt support choice that he finds revolting.)

If it's a multi-verse where even the exact same character is from a different universe in an alt, they should have honestly played with that.