Apparently Levail is not immune to leathiality

[Mufasa]

Using the incredibley deadly combination of Baselard, Gamble and Volke, (And a C support with Stefan) I had Volke attack Levail, and Volke activated Leathiality.

It was beautiful. I don't care that Volke can't open chests, anyone who says Sothe is better deserves to hang upside down 30 feet in the air for three hours while they think about what they've done.

[_____]

Sothe isn't better, combat-wise.

He's 100% more useful, though.

[Mufasa]

Sothe isn't better, combat-wise.

He's 100% more useful, though.

No way.

Putting my bias aside for a minute, Sothe is not 100% more useful than Volke. 30% better at least. There are two things that Sothe has over Volke. 1. Is that he can open chests and steal. 2. Is that his availability is higher.

For the first one, the only chest avaiable from when Volke joins is Matrona. Which frankly I never get around to using anyway. There's no need for it. I stock up on Psychic staves before the endgame, and all matrona does in advantage would be to increase biorythm, which isn't enough to make a difference IMO.

For the second argument, it doesn't mean too much. Just because he's more available, doesn't make him a better unit all around. It just means he's available more.

No one can say that Meg is better than Caineghis just because her availability is higher.

The only thing left to compare them is battle. And Volke is 1000 times better in combat than Volke. At the very least he has the potential to be 1000 times better. Which more than makes up for his short commings when compared to Sothe.

Getting back to bias. SOTHE FAILS. VOLKE=MURDERING KING.

[CO_Fimbulvetr]

Frankly, I'm not surprised. He doesn't even get boss music. I rarely attack him directly though, as long range tomes absolutely slaughter him.

[Zanarkin]

My last pt that fight was awesome.

My hit like 2 criticals on the black knight. Anyways Volke is a bit much better than sothe i agree. Eventhough sothe is more useful.

[Killer Poleax]

You know what I don't get? Why does Levail have 2 authority stars while the BK has 0 and he's the commander too? Also, why is Levail shown as the sentinel (called lancer) in the unit profiles instead of Aran, Nephenee, or even Danved? The rest of the 3rd tier classes show playable characters so why is he on there again?

I share Lyle's opinion on Sothe but I don't hate him nearly as much as he does. Sothe's good for opening chests and stealing but that's mostly in part 1. He's not that useful in part 3 compared to well trained DB members cause there's nothing to steal and no chests to open. Part 4 comes along and he's good for finding treasure in 4-3 and you can sell some of those things for A LOT of money. He's kinda useless in endgame cause there's only one chest and most enemies only carry one weapon. As a combat unit, he sucks hard but he's got his uses. Still, if I had the choice, I'd bench Sothe (especially in endgame) cause I don't use him.

Edited December 14, 2008 by KSFF2150

[Icon of Sin]

It was beautiful. I don't care that Volke can't open chests, anyone who says Sothe is better deserves to hang upside down 30 feet in the air for three hours while they think about what they've done.

I'm pretty sure I opened that one chest in 4-E-1 with him and without a key. He just can't steal.

[_____]

No way.

Putting my bias aside for a minute, Sothe is not 100% more useful than Volke. 30% better at least. There are two things that Sothe has over Volke. 1. Is that he can open chests and steal. 2. Is that his availability is higher.

For the first one, the only chest avaiable from when Volke joins is Matrona. Which frankly I never get around to using anyway. There's no need for it. I stock up on Psychic staves before the endgame, and all matrona does in advantage would be to increase biorythm, which isn't enough to make a difference IMO.

For the second argument, it doesn't mean too much. Just because he's more available, doesn't make him a better unit all around. It just means he's available more.

No one can say that Meg is better than Caineghis just because her availability is higher.

The only thing left to compare them is battle. And Volke is 1000 times better in combat than Volke. At the very least he has the potential to be 1000 times better. Which more than makes up for his short commings when compared to Sothe.

Getting back to bias. SOTHE FAILS. VOLKE=MURDERING KING.

Wrong on so many levels.

Let's argue the two pros your brought up. They aren't Sothe's only ones, but we won't drag the other ones in.

All of the chests in Part 1, all of the Vulneries that are waiting to be stolen, and Discipline (just to name 1 thing that can be stolen that isn't a Vulnary) all allow Sothe's thieving abilities to shine. There's nothing to steal come endgame, but who cares? It's 5 short chapters where you could just use the Laguz Royals to destroy everything. There's no garuntee that Volke will even be used.

How long a character is available can make or break them. Oscar and Titiania > the Crimean Knights because they are useable more. Volke is useable for... 6 chapters if you count each endgame as a seperate chapter. Wow. Sothe, on the other hand, is _required_ for 14. Sothe's around for 8 more chapters.

Volke wins in combat. No contest.

Sothe's the overall winner.

Edited December 14, 2008 by Crawdaunt

[Mufasa]

Wrong on so many levels.

Let's argue the two pros your brought up. They aren't Sothe's only ones, but we won't drag the other ones in.

All of the chests in Part 1, all of the Vulneries that are waiting to be stolen, and Discipline (just to name 1 thing that can be stolen that isn't a Vulnary) all allow Sothe's thieving abilities to shine. There's nothing to steal come endgame, but who cares? It's 5 short chapters where you could just use the Laguz Royals to destroy everything. There's no garuntee that Volke will even be used.

How long a character is available can make or break them. Oscar and Titiania > the Crimean Knights because they are useable more. Volke is useable for... 6 chapters if you count each endgame as a seperate chapter. Wow. Sothe, on the other hand, is _required_ for 14. Sothe's aroudn for 8 more chapters.

Volke wins in combat. No contest.

Sothe's the overall winner.

Just because he's available, doesn't mean he's better. Like my example with Meg and Caineghis. You'd have to be high to say that she's better. Availability helps a unit, but it doesn't make up for faults in battle prowess. Just because they're there, doesn't mean they can help at all.

As for the chest/stealing thing, really, the chests can just as easily be opened with a chest key. So that's still not enough to make up for Sothe's shortcomings.

So all Sothe really has going for him is that he can steal. So that isn't nearly enough to make up for his lack of battle prowess. Especially when compared to Volke, who is almost guarenteed to kill someone in one battle. Even if they're on a defense square.

Also, Volke has Leathiality, while Sothe has Bane. Which shows the difference between them right there. Volke will kill anyone anytime anywhere (for a nominal fee) while Sothe can harm people, but keep them alive long enough to recover.

[Killer Poleax]

Just because he's available, doesn't mean he's better. Like my example with Meg and Caineghis. You'd have to be high to say that she's better. Availability helps a unit, but it doesn't make up for faults in battle prowess. Just because they're there, doesn't mean they can help at all.

As for the chest/stealing thing, really, the chests can just as easily be opened with a chest key. So that's still not enough to make up for Sothe's shortcomings.

So all Sothe really has going for him is that he can steal. So that isn't nearly enough to make up for his lack of battle prowess. Especially when compared to Volke, who is almost guarenteed to kill someone in one battle. Even if they're on a defense square.

Also, Volke has Leathiality, while Sothe has Bane. Which shows the difference between them right there. Volke will kill anyone anytime anywhere (for a nominal fee) while Sothe can harm people, but keep them alive long enough to recover.

Dude, you are SO biased against Sothe, it's ridiculous. I hate Sothe too but I can respect his usefulness in at least part 1. There aren't enough chest keys to open all the chests in part 1 so that's something he can do. I personally don't use him to steal (I don't steal when I play) but I can respect his utility. Yeah, Volke destroys Sothe when it comes to battling enemies but Sothe is useful to weaken enemies for the DB to kill. He's not entirely useless.

Edited December 14, 2008 by KSFF2150

[Mufasa]

Dude, you are SO biased against Sothe, it's ridiculous. I hate Sothe too but I can respect his usefulness in at least part 1. There aren't enough chest keys to open all the chests in part 1 so that's something he can do. I personally don't use him to steal (I don't steal when I play) but I can respect his utility.

I know. He's invaluable in Part one. I'll admit that. But still, if there were enough chest keys to go around, then he'd be useless for that.

Plus, by that logic, Heather is better than Volke too. Which is a ridiculous notion.

[Killer Poleax]

I know. He's invaluable in Part one. I'll admit that. But still, if there were enough chest keys to go around, then he'd be useless for that.

Plus, by that logic, Heather is better than Volke too. Which is a ridiculous notion.

I said that he's useful in part 1. I still think Volke's better than Sothe. And don't get me started with Heather. I hate her more than Sothe. And don't worry, I still hate Sothe and I don't use him much. That was just me trying to be as unbiased as possible.

Edited December 14, 2008 by KSFF2150

[Florete]

Just because he's available, doesn't mean he's better. Like my example with Meg and Caineghis. You'd have to be high to say that she's better. Availability helps a unit, but it doesn't make up for faults in battle prowess. Just because they're there, doesn't mean they can help at all.

As for the chest/stealing thing, really, the chests can just as easily be opened with a chest key. So that's still not enough to make up for Sothe's shortcomings.

So all Sothe really has going for him is that he can steal. So that isn't nearly enough to make up for his lack of battle prowess. Especially when compared to Volke, who is almost guarenteed to kill someone in one battle. Even if they're on a defense square.

Also, Volke has Leathiality, while Sothe has Bane. Which shows the difference between them right there. Volke will kill anyone anytime anywhere (for a nominal fee) while Sothe can harm people, but keep them alive long enough to recover.

The problem is that Meg is, at best, average for her available chapters. Sothe is among the best units in part 1, probably the overall best for his stealing capabilities and availability.

Having Sothe open chests > using a chest key. Besides, I don't think there are enough chest keys in part 1 to open all the chests anyway. Selling the keys is better. It isn't much money, but it's something.

Lack of battle prowess? Oh, at endgame, right. Because 5 rather small maps of being only an average fighter means everything compared to the previous however many maps of being an awesome/decent fighter, right? He ends up somewhat bad so that must mean he sucks entirely right?

Bane isn't great, but it's better for Sothe than something like Astra would be. It isn't as good as Lethality of course, but it's not as bad as people make it out to be. I'll mention this because it's funny: at caps, Sothe has a 1% higher chance of activating Bane than Volke does for Lethality. Volke may have the skill, but you talk like he activates it on every enemy, which he doesn't. He activates it 19% of the time, less if you look into true hit or he isn't capped out.

Plus, by that logic, Heather is better than Volke too. Which is a ridiculous notion.

Actually, overall, Heather > Volke as well.

Edited December 14, 2008 by Red Fox of Fire

[Zanarkin]

The two rogues are very useful the first time they appear they aren't really useless but Volke is just the best one.

[Mufasa]

The problem is that Meg is, at best, average for her available chapters. Sothe is among the best units in part 1, probably the overall best for his stealing capabilities and availability.

Having Sothe open chests > using a chest key. Besides, I don't think there are enough chest keys in part 1 to open all the chests anyway. Selling the keys is better. It isn't much money, but it's something.

Lack of battle prowess? Oh, at endgame, right. Because 5 rather small maps of being only an average fighter means everything compared to the previous however many maps of being an awesome/decent fighter, right? He ends up somewhat bad so that must mean he sucks entirely right?

Bane isn't great, but it's better for Sothe than something like Astra would be. It isn't as good as Lethality of course, but it's not as bad as people make it out to be. I'll mention this because it's funny: at caps, Sothe has a 1% higher chance of activating Bane than Volke does for Lethality. Volke may have the skill, but you talk like he activates it on every enemy, which he doesn't. He activates it 19% of the time, less if you look into true hit or he isn't capped out.

Actually, overall, Heather > Volke as well.

I dunno Fox. Your argument sounds kind of empty to me.

-Using a chest key is the same as using Sothe. It takes up one turn for one unit. The only advantage of using Sothe, is that you don't have to waste a turn for another more useful character. There aren't enough keys to go around. That's true. But if there were, he could easily be replaced.

-He's below average IMO. He has the worst STR cap of all the beorc units. Laguz don't count, cause their cap doubles when transformed. Sure he can survive, but so can a heron. That doesn't make him good in battle.

-With Volke, you can give him Gamble, Baselard, and with his auto skill, he has a decent chance of activating Leathiality. And even if he DOESN'T activate Leathiality, he still has a high chance of critical, which will kill most units in one blow. And if not, he will attack a unit twice. Thus, he has a 95% chance of killing people. And even with gamble's downside, he still has a 75% chance of hitting. Which is still good with an 80% chance of critical.

Sothe is useful for part one. In fact, I'll even go so far as to say he's necessary. But after that, he's more of a hinderance, and will be overshadowed by other units. Units other than Volke as well.

[Killer Poleax]

I dunno Fox. Your argument sounds kind of empty to me.

-Using a chest key is the same as using Sothe. It takes up one turn for one unit. The only advantage of using Sothe, is that you don't have to waste a turn for another more useful character. There aren't enough keys to go around. That's true. But if there were, he could easily be replaced.

-He's below average IMO. He has the worst STR cap of all the beorc units. Laguz don't count, cause their cap doubles when transformed. Sure he can survive, but so can a heron. That doesn't make him good in battle.

-With Volke, you can give him Gamble, Baselard, and with his auto skill, he has a decent chance of activating Leathiality. And even if he DOESN'T activate Leathiality, he still has a high chance of critical, which will kill most units in one blow. And if not, he will attack a unit twice. Thus, he has a 95% chance of killing people. And even with gamble's downside, he still has a 75% chance of hitting. Which is still good with an 80% chance of critical.

Sothe is useful for part one. In fact, I'll even go so far as to say he's necessary. But after that, he's more of a hinderance, and will be overshadowed by other units. Units other than Volke as well.

Except he's (unfortunately) forced onto every map in part 1 so you might as well use him to open the chests instead of wasting another character's turn. I agree with the rest of your post except that he's not necessary for part 1 (except in hard mode). Besides opening chests, I don't use Sothe in part 1 except in 1-8.

Edited December 14, 2008 by KSFF2150

[Florete]

I dunno Fox. Your argument sounds kind of empty to me.

-Using a chest key is the same as using Sothe. It takes up one turn for one unit. The only advantage of using Sothe, is that you don't have to waste a turn for another more useful character. There aren't enough keys to go around. That's true. But if there were, he could easily be replaced.

-He's below average IMO. He has the worst STR cap of all the beorc units. Laguz don't count, cause their cap doubles when transformed. Sure he can survive, but so can a heron. That doesn't make him good in battle.

-With Volke, you can give him Gamble, Baselard, and with his auto skill, he has a decent chance of activating Leathiality. And even if he DOESN'T activate Leathiality, he still has a high chance of critical, which will kill most units in one blow. And if not, he will attack a unit twice. Thus, he has a 95% chance of killing people. And even with gamble's downside, he still has a 75% chance of hitting. Which is still good with an 80% chance of critical.

Sothe is useful for part one. In fact, I'll even go so far as to say he's necessary. But after that, he's more of a hinderance, and will be overshadowed by other units. Units other than Volke as well.

How so?

If? That entire statement is more of an argument for Sothe than against him, especially the wasting a turn for another character part. He does it, so they don't have to.

Lolwut? His durability >>>>>>> any of the herons. And endgame isn't all that matters. His combat ability is great in part 1, good in part 3, and decent in part 4.

Gamble would likely make him worse, it cuts his accuracy in half. You do know that even if he had a 100% displayed crit, if he only had 50% displayed hit, he'd still miss just as often? I don't have time to do all the calculations, but I don't think you did it all right.

How can you say he sucks yet admit he's necessary for a whole part of the game, the part a lot of people consider the hardest part of the game? That makes no sense.

[Killer Poleax]

-He's below average IMO. He has the worst STR cap of all the beorc units. Laguz don't count, cause their cap doubles when transformed. Sure he can survive, but so can a heron. That doesn't make him good in battle.

Mist actually has the worst strength cap (25) of all the beorc units (excluding magic users). At least she's an awesome healer.

Edited December 14, 2008 by KSFF2150

[Mufasa]

How so?

If? That entire statement is more of an argument for Sothe than against him, especially the wasting a turn for another character part. He does it, so they don't have to.

Lolwut? His durability >>>>>>> any of the herons. And endgame isn't all that matters. His combat ability is great in part 1, good in part 3, and decent in part 4.

Gamble would likely make him worse, it cuts his accuracy in half. You do know that even if he had a 100% displayed crit, if he only had 50% displayed hit, he'd still miss just as often? I don't have time to do all the calculations, but I don't think you did it all right.

How can you say he sucks yet admit he's necessary for a whole part of the game, the part a lot of people consider the hardest part of the game? That makes no sense.

-That's pretty much saying "He's there, you may as well use him. So why not?" Which is true. I hate Sothe, but I still use him. But he could easily be replaced with a chest key. If there were enough of them. As fate would have it, there aren't.

-He can survive. That's it. He can't kill anything on his own. Whereas Volke can survive AND kill anything.

-I'm looking at Volke's Hit rate right now. It says 235. Half that is still over 100. Taking into account an enemies avoid, still gives him a decent shot. And even if his hit was 50% That's still a coin toss. Which isn't that bad of a chance.

-He's necesary for the first part of the game. Yeah. But that doesn't make up for his lousy parts. Part 3 he'll lose out to other units. If only cause they can promote and he can't. After part one, he sucks.

[Mufasa]

Mist actually has the worst strength cap (25) of all the beorc units (excluding magic users). At least she's an awesome healer.

Also Swords>Daggers.

You can give Mist Vague Katti, and she'll be killing more than Sothe with Baselard.

[Killer Poleax]

Also Swords>Daggers.

You can give Mist Vague Katti, and she'll be killing more than Sothe with Baselard.

In general, swords>daggers but Vague Katti is only 2 more Mt than Baselard. In Mist's case she's still doing ~1 less damage per hit and she's not killing anything either. Sol and Bane are both (Skill/2)% and since Sothe has a higher skill cap, he's more likely to activate it than Mist is even though the chances of either happening are pretty low. Mist fails more as a fighter than Sothe does.

[Florete]

Lyle, I'm not continuing this unless it's in the debate boards. We've had this debate 2 or 3 times already and I want to just end it.

You can give Mist Vague Katti, and she'll be killing more than Sothe with Baselard.

She won't actually. Her mastery skill activation % is lower than Sothe's and she's dealing less damage anyway. Vague Katti has 20 power, giving Mist 45 attack, while Sothe with Baselard gives him 46. 1 less, but it disproves your statement.

[Mufasa]

In general, swords>daggers but Vague Katti is only 2 more Mt than Baselard. In Mist's case she's still doing ~1 less damage per hit and she's not killing anything either. Sol and Bane are both (Skill/2)% and since Sothe has a higher skill cap, he's more likely to activate it than Mist is even though the chances of either happening are pretty low. Mist fails more as a fighter than Sothe does.

Hm. I guess so.

You aren't probably using Mist as a frontliner anyway if you have any sense.

[Mufasa]

Lyle, I'm not continuing this unless it's in the debate boards. We've had this debate 2 or 3 times already and I want to just end it.

I dunno. Maybe once christmas vacation starts. Though I'm skeptical as to how debates really work since I gave up on the last one. What decides it? Whomever gives up first loses? I don't want to be in a battle to the death that will never end with you. No offense to you personally, but debates are so tiring....

[Florete]

I dunno. Maybe once christmas vacation starts. Though I'm skeptical as to how debates really work since I gave up on the last one. What decides it? Whomever gives up first loses? I don't want to be in a battle to the death that will never end with you. No offense to you personally, but debates are so tiring....

3 posts each and then the judges decide if no one forfeits. And if you have time to debate it now, you have time to debate it there.