(Mafia Sucks) SF Mafia: The Revival - GAME OVER, Town Wins! - Post Game is up!

[Rapier]

1 hour ago, Shinori said:

This kind of feels weird to me from rapier > Makaze.  Earlier on Rapier kind of just said some things about me that painted me in a negative light while not reading interactions or seemingly reading posts from me.  I don't quite know where their read on me has progressed to but this feels weird because it's like Rapier is attacking makaze for their thoughts on me because makaze isn't pressuring me.  It partially seems like rapier is defending me, but at the same time partially agreeing with the thought process against me so not defending me, and I don't vibe with it.  This could be conf-bias speaking though.

I'm not defending you or justifying Makaze's reaction. I was questioning why he wasn't pressuring you since he wanted answers to posts he deemed vague/inconclusive. He then replied me he wouldn't get anything else from you, although you do elaborate on your reads when pressed, so this just feels lazy from Makaze's part. I don't see how it benefits him as scum, so I don't see much scum intent from it, just questionable logic that could go either way.

1 hour ago, Shinori said:

Whatchu mean 12 waffles?

It looks like rapier is attacking makaze for sussing me but not pushing me(aka potentially egging on makaze to pressure me directly)
At the same time rapier sussed me early on, then seemed to have backed off of that sus, and if they are defending me by attacking you, it reads that they would be closer to town leaning me but this doesn't actually make too much sense because part of their wording seems to imply the logic against me is something they believe.
Thus I don't get or know where rapiers progression on me has ended up at and I do not know their read on me.
It feels like they are both defending me, and sussing me, while attacking someone else WHO IS ACTIVELY sus of me but not directly engaging me.

This must be the third time I'm saying I think your content improving since RVS/early D1. Liked your interactions with SB. Liked your comments about the game's situation afterwards. I agree with your points about Percivale although I said I don't think it's productive to vote them at that point of the game (we were <24 hours into it, with three wagons and more pressing discussions in our face).

42 minutes ago, BBM said:

Ok got to head off now but rapier should also claim. I'll try to at least check in midday if there are huge developments but I probably won't be fully back until about an hour left before deadline 

I think there's still time and I want to at least try to defend myself. I'll claim halfway before the deadline if I must, but I think there's still more to discuss before that.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

15 minutes ago, BT. said:

Fellas can you please take a break, it's obfuscating the thread at this point and making it even more intimidating for catch-up andies.

 

[Makaze]

  

1 hour ago, Shinori said:

1 hour ago, Makaze said:

Which possibilitt do you believe is rhe reality and how would you test if it isnthe case?

The possibility is that I think Rapier is still scummy and their wording and thought process leaves them open to follow multiple different paths which is not something I favor.

i am willing to concede that this is a tunnel vision and the wording is not a slip

i said that i thought that was your mindset before you posted this, and this was just a piece of evidence. it is not the case. throwing out this comment does not change what came before it. time will tell if the perspective behind it is the case or not

this does feel like YOLO at this point so I'm going to back off and breath

i guess we know who im thunderdoming

[Bluedoom]

@Makaze the ideal play is to get the town core early, yeah, but, since people here are not used to it,  on D2 use wagonmics to crack down on people with sketchy stances/ reads until you're able to find better odds at finding mafia. By D3 the town core organically forms anyway due to spews from night kills and lynches so its not like it won't form, but D1 town core is impossible, people would just get mad and think you're strongarming things

@Rapier can you read my response to Refa on page 29? That's the crux of why I'm voting him right now

 

[Rapier]

19 minutes ago, BT. said:

That's not opportunistic, it's survival-istic? That's not a word, but you get me. What's wrong with consolidating on the opposing wagon and then re-voting someone else when there's less danger? This seems like a throwaway line that you added "and that's why it solidifies my read" to.

You'd be more concerned about lynching scum than saving your bacon as town, and concerned about saving your bacon over everything else as scum. I see this behavior benefitting Weapons more than town, and we were still hours from deadline, so there was little risk of him getting lynched then.

I don't enjoy how Shinori's reasons to find me scummy boils down to something I said on page 13 or so when I called him for RVS/early D1 stuff I already got over and explained four times.

[Shinori]

1 minute ago, Makaze said:

The possibility is that I think Rapier is still scummy and their wording and thought process leaves them open to follow multiple different paths which is not something I favor.

OKAY

THIS SPECIFIC WORDING. Finally a post.

I used the world "Possibility" because you used it first!  You asked me and I quote:

Quote

Which possibilitt do you believe is rhe reality and how would you test if it isnthe case?

I assume this was the world possibility.  You used this world so I answered in kind.  Without your choice of word here if you had said "Which reality do you think this is and how would test if it isn't the case"

I would have said:

"I think Rapier is still scummy" and so forth.

I BELIEVE this was useful to the game state so I am making this post because this I feel leads to more of a conclusion of the argument and choice of words.

[Makaze]

charlie is town, I am not going to elaborate

Rapier is a miselim, I am not going to elaborate that either

I would like to elim in Bluedoom/Refa/Shinori/Elieson

[Makaze]

Just now, Shinori said:

OKAY

THIS SPECIFIC WORDING. Finally a post.

I used the world "Possibility" because you used it first!  You asked me and I quote:

I assume this was the world possibility.  You used this world so I answered in kind.  Without your choice of word here if you had said "Which reality do you think this is and how would test if it isn't the case"

I would have said:

"I think Rapier is still scummy" and so forth.

I BELIEVE this was useful to the game state so I am making this post because this I feel leads to more of a conclusion of the argument and choice of words.

I agree this was a useful interaction, but I'd feel better if we agreed on our reads

[BT.]

 

2 minutes ago, Rapier said:

You'd be more concerned about lynching scum than saving your bacon as town, and concerned about saving your bacon over everything else as scum. I see this behavior benefitting Weapons more than town, and we were still hours from deadline, so there was little risk of him getting lynched then.

Okay, I can see that, although I don't agree, I think a townie should be voting even a null read over themselves. I get that you're set on Weapons being scum, or at least it reads like that, but what about the other wagons? Even your general read on gamestate would help me at this point.

[Rapier]

4 minutes ago, Bluedoom said:

@Rapier can you read my response to Refa on page 29? That's the crux of why I'm voting him right now

 

I assume this is the reply you mean:

Quote

So here's my issue with this response. I think wrt  your townreads your scumreads don't read like proactive solving. There were enough interactions in the thread at that point in time that looking into the missing pool would've been a good line of inquiry. Idt that Prims and SB at least haven't had enough interactions with your townreads for you to get a feel of their alignment here at least, and I definitely think Shinori/BBM have posted more for them not to be just null here imo. BBM had a defence of me against Snike, isn't that a noteworthy action to look into towards a solve? Shinori outright ignored me vs Boron for a long time only to put it up as TvT, is that possibly TMI? I'd think you'd actually look into these things instead of putting them in the null pile because...you can't read him well? These are distinct actions that these two players have taken and I don't think they're harder to read than w/e cam and eli have been doing this game.

I don't find it weird that Refa doesn't have a solidified opinion on Prims and SB. Ok, Prims was more active on RVS and early D1, then fell off and I can see him getting eclipsed by the more active players (which is why I find it weird that he doesn't have an opinion on Shinori/BBM, too). SB has barely been here.

Overall I think your vote is valid for pressuring someone to answer your questions, but doesn't seem to point to scum intent from Refa's part

What do you guys think of Refa's reasons for voting me at this point in the game? Again, I dislike how he didn't associate my actions with scum intent and the main reason for voting me was due to lack of content, not any content he found troubling. I'm also in the competing wagon, which is again convenient.

I'm still fine with lynching Weapons. My reads on him didn't improve and just worsened after he switched his vote to Prims when he saw himself safe from getting lynched.

[Shinori]

2 minutes ago, Rapier said:

I don't enjoy how Shinori's reasons to find me scummy boils down to something I said on page 13 or so when I called him for RVS/early D1 stuff I already got over and explained four times.

Do something about it.

Quote

 

charlie is town, I am not going to elaborate

Rapier is a miselim, I am not going to elaborate that either

I would like to elim in Bluedoom/Refa/Shinori/Elieson

 

No, Elaborate, I would like to know why Charlie is town.  IT's pretty vital of importance that you do Elaborate.

Especially seeing that they are one of the leading people on the Rapier wagon which you say is a miselim.  Elaborate on that as well, let us peak in the mind of the great Makaze.  Please explain your thoughts.

As for your PoE for who you want lynched.

I'm never getting lynched today, simple as that.  Lynching elie is poor because it doesn't really give us information either way. If we actually lynch elie who has made like a grand total of like 3 posts or something then we don't get associative reads based on a flip.  At least not many.

I'm also not a fan of lynching Refa at the moment.  I also don't really want to lynch bluedoom, but something stands out to me that is SUPER funny.

You stated bluedoom was towncore.  Albeit this was a long time ago but, generally if you state someone is towncore, there should be reasoning for that and swapping within this short of a time frame is wack coming from an MU player.  So could you please explain to me your bluedoom read again WITHOUT stating that they are just "fakeable posts" or "fakeable content"

[Shinori]

I will state weapons vote on prims also did ping me in my re-read, quickly followed by prims voting back, and like.

No way in hell are those two buddies together so that's cool.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Towncore my favorite genre

[Rapier]

Just now, BT. said:

Okay, I can see that, although I don't agree, I think a townie should be voting even a null read over themselves. I get that you're set on Weapons being scum, or at least it reads like that, but what about the other wagons? Even your general read on gamestate would help me at this point.

We've had 32 pages of content already, no one has a list full of null reads and if they have, I'd have my doubts about them.

I couldn't read into Refa's wagon. I'm still not sure about his alignment, and the most recent interactions he had with Marth threw my doubts about them being scum/scum away. I don't think Marth is bussing Refa, and at the same time Marth's reasons for voting Refa seem more inquisitive than someone who's reading scum intent and is ok with lynching a scummy player.

2 minutes ago, Shinori said:

Do something about it.

I already have. If that's your reason to vote me, it's very weak, hangs on content from RVS/early D1 that has been misrepresented and that I already explained many times over ("I literally didn't read your posts from two pages ago, that's why I didn't account for them. This changes things"). I honestly don't see how Weapons and I are your biggest scumreads, especially since you have barely interacted with us.

[Makaze]

5 minutes ago, Shinori said:

Do something about it.

No, Elaborate, I would like to know why Charlie is town.  IT's pretty vital of importance that you do Elaborate.

Especially seeing that they are one of the leading people on the Rapier wagon which you say is a miselim.  Elaborate on that as well, let us peak in the mind of the great Makaze.  Please explain your thoughts.

As for your PoE for who you want lynched.

I'm never getting lynched today, simple as that.  Lynching elie is poor because it doesn't really give us information either way. If we actually lynch elie who has made like a grand total of like 3 posts or something then we don't get associative reads based on a flip.  At least not many.

I'm also not a fan of lynching Refa at the moment.  I also don't really want to lynch bluedoom, but something stands out to me that is SUPER funny.

You stated bluedoom was towncore.  Albeit this was a long time ago but, generally if you state someone is towncore, there should be reasoning for that and swapping within this short of a time frame is wack coming from an MU player.  So could you please explain to me your bluedoom read again WITHOUT stating that they are just "fakeable posts" or "fakeable content"

you have been misreading or i am losing my memory

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Yeah actually Shinori what do you think my Prims case/Prims in general. I also thought out what I was gonna reply to him last night but was too tired to work out a post.

@Rapier do you have doubts about your read on my slot?

[Rapier]

2 minutes ago, WeaponsofMassConstruction said:

@Rapier do you have doubts about your read on my slot?

I don't think they're absolutely great reasons for lynching you, but they seem to be the best reasons I could gather with the content we've had so far and I don't see any problems with them. If anyone would like to argue against them, feel free to convince me otherwise.

I think our discussion should be focusing around the three biggest wagons since we have 10 hours and I honestly find this bit of Makaze x Shinori being distracting and counterproductive for town (they don't seem particularly scum FOR THIS, I'm just saying we're wasting precious time here).

Same for people voting on guys who barely posted on this thread or who have 1 or 2 votes only.

[Bluedoom]

5 minutes ago, Rapier said:

I assume this is the reply you mean:

I don't find it weird that Refa doesn't have a solidified opinion on Prims and SB. Ok, Prims was more active on RVS and early D1, then fell off and I can see him getting eclipsed by the more active players (which is why I find it weird that he doesn't have an opinion on Shinori/BBM, too). SB has barely been here.

Overall I think your vote is valid for pressuring someone to answer your questions, but doesn't seem to point to scum intent from Refa's part

What do you guys think of Refa's reasons for voting me at this point in the game? Again, I dislike how he didn't associate my actions with scum intent and the main reason for voting me was due to lack of content, not any content he found troubling. I'm also in the competing wagon, which is again convenient.

I'm still fine with lynching Weapons. My reads on him didn't improve and just worsened after he switched his vote to Prims when he saw himself safe from getting lynched.

The issue isn't that he doesn't have reads on specific players, the issue is that the solve coming up to scumreads on you/makaze is lazy when you compare it to the townreads he has, and there had been enough distinct interactions between players in the null/missing pool and his townreads that you/makaze being the biggest leads is convenient when makaze has been the person with most suspicion and reads thrown on him in the game. I also didn't think his progression into a scumread on you felt natural.

I read the vote again and I don't think he's voting you for lack of content, he's voting you for presumably not having an opinion on the wagon that formed on him, and the scum intent argument over there is that you're not playing with solving in mind.

[Snike]

Hi, would appreciate if Makaze posting would slow down

 

-Sincerely, the idiot trying to ISO.

[Rapier]

Just now, Snike said:

Hi, would appreciate if Makaze posting would slow down

 

-Sincerely, the idiot trying to ISO.

SNIKE this is not the time for this, we only have 10 hours

what do you think about the three biggest wagons?

who would you rather vote?

[Rapier]

4 minutes ago, Bluedoom said:

The issue isn't that he doesn't have reads on specific players, the issue is that the solve coming up to scumreads on you/makaze is lazy when you compare it to the townreads he has, and there had been enough distinct interactions between players in the null/missing pool and his townreads that you/makaze being the biggest leads is convenient when makaze has been the person with most suspicion and reads thrown on him in the game. I also didn't think his progression into a scumread on you felt natural.

I read the vote again and I don't think he's voting you for lack of content, he's voting you for presumably not having an opinion on the wagon that formed on him, and the scum intent argument over there is that you're not playing with solving in mind.

bolded is what I meant for "lack of content". I don't have a consolidated opinion on Refa's wagon and I don't think this alone is such a big scum tell that you'd pick the guy doing this over all the other scumreads you have in 33 pages' worth of content.

[Snike]

2 minutes ago, Rapier said:

SNIKE this is not the time for this, we only have 10 hours

what do you think about the three biggest wagons?

who would you rather vote?

I never said I was just starting it. I literally have another post saved for when I finish up the ISO 3 Biggest weapons are You, Refa, Weapons. Would go Weapons in a heartbeat right now. I'm town reading both you and Refa have not had much time to develop them but you're townier over Refa. Clown  Fiesta Deadline to marth please.

 

 

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

I think we still have plenty of time. Currently leaning away from both Refa and Rapier wagons, but there's a lot of material from them my brain just hasn't been able to process

[Shinori]

7 minutes ago, Makaze said:

you have been misreading or i am losing my memory

You're right I misremembered.  You said rapier was towncore along side boron.

7 minutes ago, WeaponsofMassConstruction said:

Yeah actually Shinori what do you think my Prims case/Prims in general. I also thought out what I was gonna reply to him last night but was too tired to work out a post.

@Rapier do you have doubts about your read on my slot?

MY prims read is that I'm more leaning towards them being scum than I am them being down but there have been previously bigger fish to fry in my eyes.

I probably should go back to re-investigate Prims again because I think they have been lurking pretty hard, which they stated they would do in the first place but I believe there is a point in which it becomes too much.

3 minutes ago, Rapier said:

I don't think they're absolutely great reasons for lynching you, but they seem to be the best reasons I could gather with the content we've had so far and I don't see any problems with them. If anyone would like to argue against them, feel free to convince me otherwise.

I think our discussion should be focusing around the three biggest wagons since we have 10 hours and I honestly find this bit of Makaze x Shinori being distracting and counterproductive for town (they don't seem particularly scum FOR THIS, I'm just saying we're wasting precious time here).

Same for people voting on guys who barely posted on this thread or who have 1 or 2 votes only.

"Makaze x Shinori is distracting and counterproductive" "They aren't scum FOR THIS"

So then what are we scum for?  You just stated like a page ago you thought my content was better moving forward around the SB conversation, then double'd back and seemed to imply this is changing and you don't like my vote on you and you feel it's weak and blah blah blah.  The above sentence seems to let off that you do think I'm scum, it actually implies that a lot.  That you seem to think I'm scum, but my conversation with Makaze has nothing to do with it.  And if the sole reason is my vote on you, what's wrong with holding something that happened THAT WAS SCUMMY against someone as the day progresses?  Your future posts after the point in time did not sway my belief or decision AWAY to suddenly town reading you.

THIS is what I meant in that Rapier is leaving their progression on people open in a way that they can swing it WHATEVER way they choose WHENEVER way they choose.

Why is Makaze scum by the way?  Could you expand on that because the above post implies that makaze is scum but not based on their interaction with me.

Now speaking of the interaction that you say is DISTRACTING and COUNTERPRODUCTIVE, it should be fairly important, because both myself and makaze, the two biggest posters in the game, finally had a REAL conversation and back and forth that SHOULD mean something because it should be able to really give you a better idea of your read on both of us individually, as well as potentially together.  I ask you the same things I asked the other person earlier.  Am I scum with Makaze? Are we both scum? Because that's what your post kind of implies.  But if we are both scum then do you think me and makaze FAKED this back and forth?

I'll tell you from my perspective, THERE IS ZERO CHANCE someone reads my back and forth with Makaze and still scum reads BOTH of us.  There is literally no shot you think me and makaze are scum and had that back and forth as buddies.

@SnikeNo.  I know I'm not makaze but I'm not gonna stop actively talking/posting to people who are active and posting at this moment because someone is ISOing.

Just do your ISO up to Page 30, or whatever page it was at when you were starting your ISO/re-read and then post.  And then read the new content.  That's my 2 cents.

[Rapier]

9 hours ago, Refa said:

9 hours ago, Bluedoom said:

Its less that and more that townreading the wagonees at that time only to go into another consensus scumread looks bad and it feels weird that rapier is your strongest read there after makaze(I can buy makaze as a progression from your earlier reads) at that point in time. So the null/missing feel off when I think there are enough interactions for you to have a town/scum read there. Or really just a scum read actually, I don't care about the town reads.

At the time of that post? Absolutely not. My BBM read has changed. For Shinori, I always have this feeling like he's not doing enough, but there's never been any content that I've been bothered by. I thought the Via interaction made him look better, if anything.

9 hours ago, Bluedoom said:

Like even now from what I'm seeing on one of your responses in page 25 you should be trying to solve for j00/prims at least since those are the people you feel unsure about on your wagon but that's just not happening?

I've been working on my j00 read which you'll be able to see. I liked her progression on me in particular, want to see more reads from this slot but I'm not bothered at this point.

My brother in Christ, you've gotta be high if you think I should be solving Prims based on his two posts at that point. 

I can see Marth's point over this. Refa could've pressed Shinori for "not doing enough" but instead he consciously chose to let it pass by. Prims had few posts but developed his positions enough that at the very least Refa would have opinions over his reads. I excuse the j00 read because she's barely posted and also seemed unremarkable to me. Overall Refa's reads don't really seem that strong and he admits he sees plenty of people as null reads, which makes me feel that he's been there but also not really pressing or contributing?