Shinori Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 More on this that I meant to state in that post above towards Rapier. the back and forth between me and makaze matters because I'm pushing Rapier and if you think there is scum between me and makaze that heavily factors towards the fucking top 3 wagons at hand. I'm on rapier, AM I BUSSING? Or am I trying to push a town miselim? My other scum read was weapons, but I kind of backed off of it a little bit, also you stated weapons was my "top scum read" alongside you, which is wrong, that's SB. Unless you ALSO think that Shinori X Makaze is town infighting, our conversation and back and forth very much matters and CAN DEFINTELY help the thread WRT top 3 wagons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j00 Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 Thoughts and prayers to Elie dipping trying to catch up to 24 pages coming back to 34+p 🙏 My brain glazed over the last couple of pages but Shinori vs Makaze also feels like town infighting. I think Makaze is being themselves and nitpicking over things I cannot bring myself to give a fuck about and Shinori's frustration is NAI but feels genuine, and his scuffle with Percy also felt town. My wagon preferences are still Refa >> Woopons >> Rapier. At least Refa had been a wagon for so long without suspicion really being removed from them so they should claim. Worst case scenario is SF being SF and scrambling during last minute deadline claims to turbo someone who turns out to be Doc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snike Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 That was more me complaining, not telling people to actually stifle things. I'm more annoyed 6 pages went to 7 and I'm writing up the end of it. would it be rude of me to think you're committing acts of tvt violins? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rapier Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 2 minutes ago, Shinori said: "Makaze x Shinori is distracting and counterproductive" "They aren't scum FOR THIS" So then what are we scum for? You just stated like a page ago you thought my content was better moving forward around the SB conversation, then double'd back and seemed to imply this is changing and you don't like my vote on you and you feel it's weak and blah blah blah. The above sentence seems to let off that you do think I'm scum, it actually implies that a lot. That you seem to think I'm scum, but my conversation with Makaze has nothing to do with it. And if the sole reason is my vote on you, what's wrong with holding something that happened THAT WAS SCUMMY against someone as the day progresses? Your future posts after the point in time did not sway my belief or decision AWAY to suddenly town reading you. THIS is what I meant in that Rapier is leaving their progression on people open in a way that they can swing it WHATEVER way they choose WHENEVER way they choose. Why is Makaze scum by the way? Could you expand on that because the above post implies that makaze is scum but not based on their interaction with me. Now speaking of the interaction that you say is DISTRACTING and COUNTERPRODUCTIVE, it should be fairly important, because both myself and makaze, the two biggest posters in the game, finally had a REAL conversation and back and forth that SHOULD mean something because it should be able to really give you a better idea of your read on both of us individually, as well as potentially together. I ask you the same things I asked the other person earlier. Am I scum with Makaze? Are we both scum? Because that's what your post kind of implies. But if we are both scum then do you think me and makaze FAKED this back and forth? I'll tell you from my perspective, THERE IS ZERO CHANCE someone reads my back and forth with Makaze and still scum reads BOTH of us. There is literally no shot you think me and makaze are scum and had that back and forth as buddies. Way to misrepresent someone, dude. I could just answer this with "I didn't say that". I literally put in caps that you guys aren't scum FOR THIS. I don't think this distraction necessarily had scum intent. What I think is that we're far too pressed for time for you to spend so much time justifying yourself to Makaze (even when you complained about it being counterproductive, but that you "needed to" since he had been pressing and insisting so much over it) and exploring his reasoning when we have more pressing matters at hand. Nowhere in this post did I set you two up as scum, although THIS response in particular makes me read you more as paranoid and reminds me of the overdefensive behavior I criticized back then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shinori Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 Just now, Rapier said: Way to misrepresent someone, dude. I could just answer this with "I didn't say that". I literally put in caps that you guys aren't scum FOR THIS. I don't think this distraction necessarily had scum intent. What I think is that we're far too pressed for time for you to spend so much time justifying yourself to Makaze (even when you complained about it being counterproductive, but that you "needed to" since he had been pressing and insisting so much over it) and exploring his reasoning when we have more pressing matters at hand. Nowhere in this post did I set you two up as scum, although THIS response in particular makes me read you more as paranoid and reminds me of the overdefensive behavior I criticized back then. You can say "I didn't say that" but I mean when you emphasize "FOR THIS" it IMPLIES which is the wording I chose, I didnt' say you said ANYTHING I said you implied something. https://www.dictionary.com/browse/implied You also just didn't fucking answer my questions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaponsofMassConstruction Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 10 hours ago, Prims said: Regarding Weapons vote: My impression today that if there's scum!Weapons, his gameplan was that he realized he's under fire and needed to step things up, so he wrote stream of conscious posts that get read as townie without actually doing that much. Wasn't sure if this was actually the scenario or just town!Weapons, but his response to the wagon on him being gone moving his vote to me struck me as like the scum!Weapons interpretation - I'm not a likely lynch, and if you look at Weapons' posts he's not actually pushing me hard at all, so to me it came off as moving to a votepark now that the spotlight isn't on him anymore while also being cheeky about it. From there I was curious how he, while active in thread, would react to his suspect suddenly showing up to OMGUS him with no explanation, but his response so far has been mostly to duck out of the thread without talking about it, which is... not really what I anticipated from town!Weapons here either? Like, OK I got cut by a post saying he's trying not to tunnel which I guess is fair enough for an explanation why his response wasn't very aggressive, but there's just not really a push to lynch me in general even disregarding the OMGUS. @WeaponsofMassConstruction am I actually your strongest read and/or preferred lynch right now? do you view me as actually lynchable? I don't like this. What exactly are you expecting from an instant reply with only a vote? I mean I did react even, tbf I was a bit shocked at first, but then I was like, how does this make sense from a town Prims perspective? I can see scum Prims being nervous because he thinks my points on him are legitimate and wants to stop anything from getting off the ground, but shouldn't town Prims be more objective here, and think things through to see that actually me voting Prims by this point makes perfect sense (FMPOV)? Why is voteparking bad in any case? It's not like we don't have time, and I felt like Refa was giving me the towntells I was looking for so of course I'm gonna move things off in the meantime. Why should you being lynchable factor into my decision to vote you? Of course you're not very lynchable, you've played the phase safe as hell, and to that effect I know trying to seriously push you would be a lot of effort, and that demotivates me. But this post doesn't make sense, like, yes, you are as good to me as anyone to be lynched (besides Elie). How does town me react differently to your vote? Very much want people to comment on this, I know deadline's close and Prims probably isn't going to be the lynch, but this is where I'm at Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rapier Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 1 minute ago, Shinori said: You can say "I didn't say that" but I mean when you emphasize "FOR THIS" it IMPLIES which is the wording I chose, I didnt' say you said ANYTHING I said you implied something. https://www.dictionary.com/browse/implied You also just didn't fucking answer my questions. You say I'm >implying something and I'm replying this is not what I meant. You're cherrypicking to make a point. I also didn't say your back and forth with Makaze was pointless, I said we have more pressing matters (which also applied during your discussion with him). It's definitely useful for D2 onwards, or if we had more time on D1 (I swear I'll never join a 16p game again, 34 pages of content for D1 is INSANE). I don't particularly enjoy this cherrypicking and misrepresentation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shinori Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 1 minute ago, Rapier said: You say I'm >implying something and I'm replying this is not what I meant. You're cherrypicking to make a point. I also didn't say your back and forth with Makaze was pointless, I said we have more pressing matters (which also applied during your discussion with him). It's definitely useful for D2 onwards, or if we had more time on D1 (I swear I'll never join a 16p game again, 34 pages of content for D1 is INSANE). I don't particularly enjoy this cherrypicking and misrepresentation. You are still ignoring what I said as well so I guess we are both doing the same thing to each other from your PoV. The back and forth between myself and makaze leads to reads on me and makaze which directly leads to interactions and our views on the top 3 wagons. If someone ELSE thinks I'm scum then my insistence and push against you would look WORSE to them and reason to back off of your wagon. Just like it might draw attention that I town read Refa and was on weapons. This information matters, A LOT. Just like if it comes to Makaze, if someone viewed makaze as scum, their insistence at saying you are a miselim, looks interesting as well. It makes our reads and views way a lot more if you are viewing certain people one way or another. Like I said, in no way does someone read the exchange between myself and Makaze as Scum X Scum. At best it is Scum x Village or Village x Village. And the distinction matters heavily on what you read it as, as well as what you read us as. It can affect and add to the information available to the top 3 wagons. You don't enjoy this but I don't care. Vote me then, if you think I'm scum then do it. Come at me bro. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rapier Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 @WeaponsofMassConstruction if Prims won't be a lynch, who would you choose between me, Refa and Weapons since we're the most likely to be lynched and we only have <10 hours left? 2 minutes ago, Shinori said: You are still ignoring what I said as well so I guess we are both doing the same thing to each other from your PoV. The back and forth between myself and makaze leads to reads on me and makaze which directly leads to interactions and our views on the top 3 wagons. If someone ELSE thinks I'm scum then my insistence and push against you would look WORSE to them and reason to back off of your wagon. Just like it might draw attention that I town read Refa and was on weapons. This information matters, A LOT. Just like if it comes to Makaze, if someone viewed makaze as scum, their insistence at saying you are a miselim, looks interesting as well. It makes our reads and views way a lot more if you are viewing certain people one way or another. Like I said, in no way does someone read the exchange between myself and Makaze as Scum X Scum. At best it is Scum x Village or Village x Village. And the distinction matters heavily on what you read it as, as well as what you read us as. It can affect and add to the information available to the top 3 wagons. You don't enjoy this but I don't care. Vote me then, if you think I'm scum then do it. Come at me bro. I don't see how I'm ignoring you, and I remember you asking people to just ignore your back and forth with Makaze if they felt like it was polluting the thread (I again don't think they were. Again, I think we have MORE PRESSING MATTERS at hand, but it wasn't a pointless discussion by any means). I agree that it forms associative reads, although they still seem circumstancial at best (if I find you town and you find someone town, that doesn't mean you're right about them being town, so it's not really indicative of alignment). I don't think both of you can be scum/scum due to this interaction. I think they give important context for the game, but not closure for D1, which is what we need right now. Again, you're being overly defensive even when I said you two weren't scum for that. Chill, bro. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makaze Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 @Rapier Please post a simple list-style summary of how you read each player in the game, and who makes sense on what team, especially with me. i.e. Help everyone see what you're building Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makaze Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 The less argumentative you can be the better since I feel like the weakness in your play is that you're spending it interacting with specifics instead of the whole game Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shinori Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 5 minutes ago, Rapier said: @WeaponsofMassConstruction if Prims won't be a lynch, who would you choose between me, Refa and Weapons since we're the most likely to be lynched and we only have <10 hours left? I don't see how I'm ignoring you, and I remember you asking people to just ignore your back and forth with Makaze if they felt like it was polluting the thread (I again don't think they were. Again, I think we have MORE PRESSING MATTERS at hand, but it wasn't a pointless discussion by any means). I agree that it forms associative reads, although they still seem circumstancial at best (if I find you town and you find someone town, that doesn't mean you're right about them being town, so it's not really indicative of alignment). I don't think both of you can be scum/scum due to this interaction. I think they give important context for the game, but not closure for D1, which is what we need right now. Again, you're being overly defensive even when I said you two weren't scum for that. Chill, bro. Oh fuck off with this defensive shit. I'm actively pressing you for a fucking statement of reads and you are dodging around the fucking question. At least you answered part of it. You don't think we are scum/scum. So do you think one of us is scum? And if so why is it me? Why the fuck is me actually just quizzing you and enquiring into your thoughts and statements me being defensive. Apparently some people don't fucking know what the meaning defensive fucking is. https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/defensive#:~:text=Someone on the defensive is,to protect or justify themselves. I am ACTIVELY on the OFFENSIVE towards you and breaking apart part of your wordings and arguments that you choose to use. Vote for Rapier! A vote for rapier makes the thread go crazier! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shinori Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 You cannot just fucking push my argument under the table and ignore me because "Oh he's being defensive" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makaze Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 Take a step back and stop interacting and a lot of things may start to make sense I have the same advice for Sunwoo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shinori Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 Also saying it doesn't give closure for day 1 is wack when I'm the person grilling you about it. (You're one of the top wagons, I'm one of the people involved in the shinori x makaze back and forth) Right here at this moment I am questioning you because I want to know your reads and your progression on me and makaze after the back and forth. Other people who are catching up are more than welcome to ignore this at the moment, as i said, because they are CATCHING UP. I also fully expect them to read it eventually because it does matter. But you, YOU SPECIFICALLY. I am questioning. You say to focus on the top wagons, I AM. I am focusing on one of the top wagons, that being YOU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluedoom Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 I have a headache now reading the last couple of pages, but I'll be around for another 2 hours tops. Deadline happens while I'm sleeping so I won't be around, so anyone wanting to interact, post at me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BT. Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 I'm sorry it took me this long to properly get back to Refa but I think something about the @user paragraph @user paragraph @user paragraph format makes me think most of the post is aimed at other people rather than general thoughts and that I'd rather read anyone else. Anyway I think the compelling point to look at is the strength of their reads and the lack of confrontation. In #448, if Rapier is giving you bad vibes and faking contribution, why not dig in, show examples, point at posts/sentences that wronged you etc.? Lots of extra work that could have been done here as town but wasn't; would have been actually speaheading a case and more productive than a big reads list. Then there's the Maka suspicion... I want to say "it's too easy" and I think I can even put a finger on why - there's no attempt to contextualize their playstyle and factor that in. I've skimmed through enough people's takes on Makaze and most people acknowledge that their playstyle makes them unintelligible at best and easy targets at worst. Maka at some point even listened and tried changing it up... there's a narrative there that you can buy into or not, but I think Refa has been looking at it very face-value: Quote They have not made an actual post or progressed their read in like 24 hours. There's the lynchproof crumb, which they then immediately said was BS, so I did not comment on it. Then they state an opinion on the Weapons' wagon but don't have a read on anyone there, and I don't get the opinion on the Weapons wagon. Then they double down on their Marth read in a one liner. There is no additional insight I can give there. It's a pretty stark contrast over their play earlier, like they're afraid of being in the limelight. This is why I feel comfortable with my vote, because they haven't been engaging in any way. Saying Makaze's afraid of being in the limelight or haven't been engaging with people does NOT make me think Refa's actually tried analyzing the slot, this para is like a read-off of things that might look good to complement their vote. The irony is that if Refa engaged more with Makaze then at least I'd get a better read on whether there's real scumhunting going on - instead all I can conclude is that they're not interested enough in that. The read transitions at #658 are mostly unoriginal (reading the competing wagons as scum), and couldv'e been another opportunity to show that you're reading the thread and coming to unique conclusions.. and I'm bugged that Marth is Scum -> Town. Weren't you conflicted on that slot as best? Quote That's 100% true, I hate playing as scum. I will push back on me being less gungho; this is just a result of having less time and energy for mafia in general; you'll notice in my most recent town games even I've had less energy. I think the one time I was scum in OC didn't make any posts in a thread, but it's been a while. This might be the main thing that's giving me pause now. It's been a while for all of us and maybe my expectations are too high, but I do think you could've been more proactive in the time that you put in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snike Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 Spoiler Responding to this post. Other readers, you were warned. 1) Your reaction was (paraphrasing) 'What am I supposed to do' to my criticism of the list post, and like I have said a couple of times, the way you worded it struck me as 'loaded' because the options you gave me were 'too much', 'too little', or not at all. Implication being no matter what you did I'd be on your case. Similarly, the bit on doubling down and 'ignoring' your revote either missed or chose to ignore* the context that I wrote that post at 4AM. I will admit I didn't bring up the Boron vote in the original vote and I probably should've looked at that harder. That being said, like I said earlier, it strengthened my position on you. Defense has nothing to do with it, you're twisting what I said and have presented. And you just did it again, with presenting my argument as 'handwaving'. There is a difference between twisting actions and casing people. *Hey look, this is leaving room for interpretation. Funny about that. Since there's been discussion over classic scum tells and the recent Champions game, I want to point out that list posting is along the lines as it's relatively easy content to generate, whereas interacting directly is harder to do. You yourself put beforehand you were having trouble coming up with reads so would it not follow that defaulting to list posting could be interpreted as the above? As an addendum, if the straightforward read is 'town struggling to get a grip', that destroys the opportunistic argument used against me beyond target selection. Which, well, I believe I've adequately dealt with those arguments. 2) Let's look at your post. -First thing is a question about Sunwoo vs Prims and your read on the latter, + request to elaborate. As an aside I think your Prims read made sense at the time. Back on topic, I would say this has no conclusion. -Next is you outlining issues w/ the Sunwoo comment. This isn't a question or a conclusion, so skipping to the reasoning. - You state you were voting for Refa for very similar reasons (I'll summarize Sunwoo's comment as 'active but unmemorable'),and ask why your vote is safe and Sunwoo's read is not. Not a conclusion in this bit. You introduce the h-word (hypocrite) later. Sidetrack A: At the time of Sunwoo posting, you were voting Refa for "too many questions with a lack of conclusion." The 'background presence' you mentioned later, after this post, so strictly speaking this claim is false. Let's say in spirit you were shifting to/ arriving at the background presence as reasoning; I would argue your angle is 'refa is fishing' rather than 'refa is unmemorable. Similar? Maybe, but I wouldn't lean that way. I would like to note the shift regardless. -You appear to agree with Shinori's antics being NAI, you go on to say the read on that slot + Makaze, alongside the one liner about BBM and myself, are "Easily fakable". You then proceed to ask for clarification about Makaze's townie actions. A conclusion about the content, but not one regarding the Makaze explanation. Sidetrack B: This "fakable" line is what I was talking about in terms of charity. Specifically talking about the BBM/myself bit. It was true at the time, we weren't around. Why would Sunwoo have to fake that? A better framing would be that read's filler, which, well, yeah. As-is, the framing here, I interpret, is you're accusing the whole null section as being forged immediately, which is what I'm arguing is sus because it's more sinister than 'fence-sitting'. -You call out the three reads as Sunwoo being 'willing' to vote them. Meta read on Sunwoo wanting to feel more 'concrete' before pulling the trigger. Claims last paragraph is fence sitting? There's a conclusion there but it's phrased as a question so half points. So, we add up to arrive at, by my count, one and a half conclusions to four questions. I would say the 'too many questions, not enough conclusions' epithet fits here. Everyone else is free to agree or disagree. This 'whack' idea is you suggesting that the idea is whack in my eyes. Back to present; You're inconsistent with the motive behind Refa vote now, since you're going back to what I would call the 'fishing' angle + adding a middle of the road addition to it when previously it was the 'background presence'/unmemorability that was the issue. Your next post reads more of a voting Sunwoo off the transitory from refa (post before that briefly mentions this as you're chatting) and fishing for clarity not so much as pressure. My issue on the hypocrisy angle is you're comparing a vote to a read when Sunwoo was already on her highest scumread (weapons) and you're framing that as 'fence-sitting'. There's no reason to move the votes in her purview, in other words, and I don't think saying someone's unmemorable is 'safe'. On your end, your self-stated options were voting Refa for what's been a shifting goalpost reason or "bbm off of low presence". I definitely see that as safe, especially when you weren't initially prodding Refa as Rapier mentioned in the followup before the shift to Sunwoo. 3) Again, there's saying 'easily fakable' and there's saying it's filler. One ascribes intent more than the other. You don't have to make out everything to be orchestrated when sometimes it's just padding. As for walking back the fakable bit, you call it random, which is an opinion I think some members of the thread could take. Let me weave you a pattern: You vote Refa for background presence/ too manyquestions (reason variable). You encounter resistance, you soften your stance. Weapons rolls up with a wagon and Refa moves there too, so you jump there as well with the quoted post. You encounter more resistance. You walk back the 'fakable' element. Later, you unvote even though you believe you're right and are tunnelling. You don't vote me even though you just spent three sections defending yourself/attacking me (all's fair in mafia and war) and instead move to support the tunnel narrative. If it isn't clear I don't think you're standing up for your positions. Some of you are OK, don't open the spoiler. Unless you're marth. Anyways, let's peek out of the mud. @Prims I think I explained it when I made the post w/ headache, I was gauging how people thought of the slot because I'm emotionally annoyed but I don't know what to think there, if that makes sense. @BT. As you might see if you choose to look into the Abyss, I disagree with the 'scum wouldn't be avoiding confrontation' bit. IMO scum would absolutely love not to get drawn in and slip by while townies kill each other. Also, one of them was me, I preferred Cam over Elie at the time. Fight me OSFMF. @Percivale Fair, fair, I was more pairing it with the Rapier 1-2 and getting a twist on a GoT quote there. Chat more about weapons/prims? Re: Cam: You had the drunk reads,then the second set of posts w/o the vote. I would argue not voting means safety which I'm not in favor of, yes. I think the take I'm chainsawing Boron is interesting, can townies chainsaw townies? Would also like to see how you feel about the developing case. Still, good eating [this post]. @BBM Is it bad if I said "I don't know?" Part of me gauging j00 is to try to form a stronger opinion around the two of you. I'm not going to say I wasn't worried about your slot, and I'd say right now you're null-town, perhaps in part because it's not where I'm focusing. The thing I've noticed as I've sat here more and more is that language is being lifted and used left right centre, see: "charitable" which has been used by yourself, Makaze, and Marth. I'm coming to the realization that it's not as much alignment indicative as much as it's showing where people are resonating with posts and forming connections, if that makes sense. You having j00 in active townreads would then explain that link. I think those are direct mentions, now going to post my homework. Oops, all Makaze! (I hate it here.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rapier Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 Just now, Makaze said: @Rapier Please post a simple list-style summary of how you read each player in the game, and who makes sense on what team, especially with me. i.e. Help everyone see what you're building Weapons: Don't particularly like how he's been coasting since the beginning of the game, nor his first vote on me, nor his switch under the justification that he was no longer under threat of being lynched back then. I can see scum intent in his behavior and imo he's more likely to be scum than the other choices. Marth: Started finding it odd that he didn't vote for Refa when he was his biggest scumread, then he did the same again with Sunwoo but that time he chose to vote her. Felt inconsistent, strange and I assumed he was buddying up to Refa somehow. Their latest interactions don't make much sense and I think it's unlikely that Marth would bus him. I think his discussion with Boron means one of Boron/Marth is town, and so far I think she's more likely to be town. I'm confused about Marth and would put him as a null read, although slightly more towards town since I do enjoy his concern on reading tone and alignment versus breaking down logical inconsistencies as a reason for being scum. Shinori: Already said this exhaustively, but sure. Didn't like Shinori's earlygame content because despite being the top poster, he spent most of the time either joking or defending/justifying himself. His back and forth with SB was good, and I hadn't read that at the time I accused Shinori. Afterwards his content was ok, although I hadn't seen him pressing for any other player and ending his observations with "hmm, interesting", as Makaze observed (and I agree with). His reasons for voting me seem based on what I did on earlygame and whenever I interact with him, he's overly aggressive, protective of himself and cherrypicks my posts to make a point, saying I'm implying the opposite of what I already cleared with him. This reasoning is bad and everything overall gives me slight scumvibes on Shinori. Also Shinori has been coming at me like a cocaine bear after I said there were more pressing matters than his discussion with Makaze accomplished for us and that he's reacting too aggressively to protect/defend himself AGAIN. Makaze: There's too much fluff and questionable logic that gives out too much noise for me to assess Makaze properly. I don't think he'd be insisting and doubling down on his actions, especially when they got him placed against the wall, as scum. His erratic behavior seems more like an idiosyncrasy of his than a scum tell. Not digging a Makaze lynch, but not opposed to it on D2 onwards. I think D1 benefits from having someone with more concrete scum motives lynched instead. Not opposed to dayvigging him. BBM: I again don't like why he chose Weapons over me when he had a scumread on us both followed by what seemed like sound logic, but then he concluded one felt scummy and the other felt as confused town, which imo feels convenient since Weapons had a bigger wagon (but this brings another problem, as it wouldn't make sense for both to be scum and I scumread Weapons). imo his reason for voting me is the best on my wagon and I don't have a counterargument. If anything, it really is my fault that I haven't been more productive and helpful past RVS/early D1. I tried to bite more than I could chew and I have no excuse for this. Seems slightly more town aligned, especially due to his concerns on reading tone. Refa: After reading Refa, I feel that he's just... there. The entire game. I don't appreciate his reason for voting me because it feels like he's voting me for lacking content rather than scum intent (ha I'm good at rhyming), and I'm the competing wagon, so it feels like an easy vote. His switch to me also came in abruptly. Prims: Posts little, but I like his stances and prods so far. Slight townread on him. Sunwoo: Same as Prims, and I think both contributed well on RVS and early D1. She seems more distant since then, and the vibes on her posts seem a bit overprotective/conscious, but so far seems like a slight townread. SB: Their reason for voting me is pretty much the same Shinori has been using and feels pretty outdated. I don't particularly enjoy that it has been parked since yesterday morning, I've already clarified about this bit and I don't see any comment from SB either retracting or reinforcing their reasons for voting me, but I'm still "one of the biggest scumreads" alongside Refa(?) and Weapons. Cam: Appeared just a few times, which can be attributed to being busy irl, and I don't see anything really wrong with his reads, just that he doesn't seem to be pressuring people he finds suspicious or scummy. He comes down, takes a few posts to vote, then leaves. Neutral, although there's the slight hypothesis that he's scum flying under the radar on purpose. Elie: Is a SF myth probably I don't have any big/elaborate opinions on the other players. This is a 16p game and sure, this is my fault, I admit. Not enough energy or brainpower to have educated opinions on everyone and draw conclusions from their associations. 17 minutes ago, Shinori said: Also saying it doesn't give closure for day 1 is wack when I'm the person grilling you about it. (You're one of the top wagons, I'm one of the people involved in the shinori x makaze back and forth) Right here at this moment I am questioning you because I want to know your reads and your progression on me and makaze after the back and forth. Other people who are catching up are more than welcome to ignore this at the moment, as i said, because they are CATCHING UP. I also fully expect them to read it eventually because it does matter. But you, YOU SPECIFICALLY. I am questioning. You say to focus on the top wagons, I AM. I am focusing on one of the top wagons, that being YOU. I don't think this is scum vs scum. That's really all I can say and conclude from your back and forths, because again I'm focusing on more pressing matters for endphase. I also don't think it's helpful to use associative reads NOW, when we haven't even a flip on you guys, to guess whose wagon is more justified or not. This reeks of bad reasoning. For someone focused on my wagon, you could at least come up with a decent reason for voting me that isn't the same "he didn't read my posts with SB back then, therefore scum". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snike Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 Spoiler Summary of Makaze ISO. I'm going to describe the post, if I'm misinterpreting/misreading it please correct that. I'll be attaching comments where I feel like it, but descriptions are coming first. A dash (-) is a new post. -meme about YOLO. -What is TTYD (heresy) - admitting heresy (colon post) -vote count test 1 -votecount test 2 - talks about having improved, much of which was due to previous game; says gameplan is trust instincts more, sheep 'good players' when lost. Solid idea, NAI. Wondering if 'good' is meant in terms of townies or in terms of skill. -Snap judgements of Refa scum, Sunwoo town. This is what I remember being as quintessential Makaze. I don't agree on the first read, but the second read I'm agreeing with overall. -Voting clarification -Snaps BBM as scum, Rapier as ITP. Could interpret BBM read as OMGUS? Rapier read and ITP spec is really early IMO but I'm not entirely sure where scum equity would come from that. Prims mentions it later in terms of possibly TMI but I think scum would again point to the lack of an inspection rule. -Explains SK read a bit, puts a vote to the BBM read, restates Sunwoo town read. I believe this was around early Rapier, where the entrance felt a little self-conscious. So ultimately if we grant Rapier to feel Weird there this makes sense. Could read BBM vote here as delayed OMGUS? -Accepts shinori's jam. I think it is universally applicable to this game but I'll stick to my KagePro covers. -Answers BBM's inquiry w/ reiterating instinct/gutread, offers BBM a way out: solving/ coop. This doesn't read as a tunnel or OMGUS as much as it's a vibe check. -Addresses Rapier asking for elaboration: claims not sure where Rapier's head is at + weird feeling reads as SK (ITP); doubles down on gut reading. -Addresses Sunwoo asking about the town read. Claims pure vibes/no ulterior motive. I would say this line of feeling-based gameplay is consistent. -Asks about FEF's name because they stepped into thread after being pinged by OP. -Comments that Prims is going by the book when remembered as a feeling-based player who voted the slot early. Asks if something happened to change playstyle. This reads as a player who's noticed a marked difference in meta and is looking to reconcile it. Probably NAI, but I'm not sure how interested scum would be in looking at meta shifts? Additional context: This was the Prims post that pinged me early. -Does not feel like Weapons' vote on Prims had much conviction ("weight" was the term used). I would agree with that read, but I think the stronger argument here is it is strange seeing weapons play like a normal slot (no offense Weapons). -Admits possibility of OMGUSing to Refa, defends vibechecking both slots. Frustrating to people who want to argue the point but consistent. An angle of agreeability could be argued. Could also argue that this is being aware of limitations. -Thinks Rapier's case is "not BS", but thinks Rapier should know better from previous game, despite the years. Implication being that Makaze meta hasn't changed. NAI. -Snaps Rapier as town after the post cracking down on Weapons, asks Refa about a missed Sunwoo question, requests a nickname list for players. Makaze thing, NAI, NAI. I agree with the vibe on Rapier in that post and I think Makaze townreading there makes sense because it's agreeing with the weight remark above. -In response to Refa, states nothing changed about Sunwoo read, states the read solidified. Does not feel weird about the read on slot and states it's a normal reaction for an unsolicited/unexplained town read. Contradiction aside (the read solidified, it thus changed), this reads conversational. NAI. -Quotes same post again, asks about BBM. NAI. Town would want more reads on the slot, scum would want to push attention. -States Prims is pinging them, couches by stating conflict is normal between the slots, states annoyance/tilt with not being scumread (?), asks for reads that are "not pushing back on someone else's extremes". I'm going to be honest: I don't know why a scum player would be baffled by not being scumread. This reads more as confusion with Prims' positions/meta and asking them to stake out firmer ground than scum trying to shade a slot. -Quotes a followup Prims post as answering the previous question (Prims pushing Shinori), is not sure how to read Shinori but vibes with the confidence, wants to see more. Pings Shinori and asks about strategy. Ultimately NAI but this doesn't read as disengaged as the discussion of Prims' question (how do people feel about Shinori) in the post. Onto the next page. -Votal script clarification -Explains weapons read in a cross from Refa/Prims, key points being 1)Inability to read Weapons if life depended on it, and 2) the Weapons post reads as though it came from a "temperature read" instead of true conviction, thus feeling flimsy. Asks Refa to choose between BBM/Shinori/Prims, and elaborate why. Does a better job on Weapons read explanation than other slots, even if it comes down to feelings. Makaze already covered thoughts on all three slots previously, so I think it makes sense to follow up and get Refa to further expound on them, especially when Shinori/Prims are shakier reads as per this ISO. -Notes Marth's list post as showing up after Prims, feels like sheeping the read on slot (Makaze ITP spec weird), but does not credit Prims nor spends much time on it. Concludes feelsWeirdMan. For the sake of the recap I'm not allowed to talk about Marth, so let's move along as it should be clear what I think about this angle. -Responds to Weapons asking about town motive by saying that if assumed it was intentional, it could be baiting someone into voting based on temp, but that wouldn't change the way the reads were feeling. I believe that means Makaze is saying the reads were lacklustre? This is interacting with a scumread; I'm not seeing misinterpretation or 'agreeability'/appeasement. -Gets offended by Refa comparison to Weapons. Clearly the only way to resolve this is dayvigs at noon. -Admits/reaffirms posting Prims/Shinori/BBM question, states not scumread on Shinori; views Shinori indifference towards why people are OK throwing their name around as "interesting". Asks who the 'worst' and who the 'most natural namethrowers (not to be confused with gamethrowers) are. This reads as probing for more information from Shinori, which lines up with the high confidence and desire for more content there. -States towncore as Sunwoo/Rapier, looking for reasons to add more, requests strong town reads to prop up. I think this is NAI, but the line of thought is consistent. -Asks Weapons what 'doable' means, in terms of Sunwoo PoE. NAI, I can see a world where a Scum!Makaze tell is not defending claimed towncore hard enough. -Answers Shinori's Sunwoo/Rapier/Prims Q with Prims. Restates Prims isn't out of PoE or even a town read. Asks why specifically those three. This answer is consistent with Town core/scumread and seems genuinely curious of why the three were chosen; If I'm reading right Prims is the obvious choice here to Makaze. -Quotes self, pings shinori and makes the comment the previous post was dodging Makaze's ask by flipping the question. I can see the read on Shinori start to shift here. -First half is a response/critique of Shinori not having specific things to cite as "interesting". Asks if followup covering opinions on that 'interest' will happen + when if so. I feel like this is a continuation of the previous shift on Shinori. Second half is claiming a strong 'town' ping on Sunwoo early. Then a self-meta explanation, states flexibility but also would need reason to do so. Asks why Sunwoo's "nothing-but-positioning" is more doable than BBM's. First bit is sticking to guns, second bit on meta is whatever. Third bit is both a defense of Sunwoo and a push towards BBM, while also asking Weapons to further elaborate. This lines up with the worldview of the ISO so far, but ultimately NAI. -Claims to have reread Sunwoo ISO, sees "helpful" and "being present" content, so can see the positioning argument previously referenced. Does not see anything damning. Asks Sunwoo to post townreads next time present. Argument could be made this is scum backing down on a townread to appease. Argument could also be made that this is town reevaluating a solid townread, in context of earlier meta. NAI. -Talks about weird feelings around how Rapier posts, but believes its a meta clash consistent with previous experience. Claims intent to ignore the posting style vibe and focus on reasoning. This is possibly softening stance on towncore, which I'm not feeling great about. Could also be self-awareness. -Clarifies still feeling pretty sure about Rapier, but would like more content. Not doubting instincts, but would gamble on, paraphrasing (post uses aligned but I believe that's meant in an informed factional sense): Prims/Weapons not W/W Rapier/Refa not W/W Rapier/Shinori not W/W Rapier/Sunwoo not W/W Refa/Sunwoo not W/W Weapons/Sunwoo not W/W unless Sunwoo is actively being bussed. BBM is mafia (or W in other words). Feels good about reads. First statement clarifies Rapier read as towncore and not a walkback. I disagree with the Prims/Weapons read as I believed at the time (and am keeping my mind open to the avenue where) both were scum. I don't currently as of this ISO see rapier, Refa, or Sunwoo as Mafia, and I'm null on Shinori/BBM. So this list otherwise readily works for me. I don't think scum would hem in their teams like this, nor would it be so confident. -Snap to Weapons as obvtown/gotten so much better it gives whiplash. I don't get this read. I can agree on the Refa town bit but Marth is Marth, BBM escaping notice same as saying unmemorable so that should clash w/ the scumread, and Shinori being performative is null. I'm not seeing the vibe that would cause such a hard pivot. -death godfather trauma. I don't remember this game and it sounds like I probably shouldn't? -Agrees with Shinori alignment reads might be a bad idea, but prefers to "push content and box them in", and is working on reconsidering strongest reads late if kept alive, as clearly mafia chose not to elim for a reason, thus not afraid to state reads. Goes on to say just as likely to forget gut/alignment reads with the next post read so would like to have progression and figure out what was thought the next time a gut read happens, since there's a need to "box them in [themself]" in case "the contradictions get the better of me". So I think the second half regarding progression and forgetting alignment/gut reads is framed as forgetting them because they're made up. Not going to entirely discount that viewpoint because that could be the case. What I believe to be much more likely is that Makaze means 'forgetting' in the sense that the feeling has been swept away/faded and so the progression is desired to associate/determine what the vibe was previously. A 'second memory' and an enduring one, so to speak. Anecdotally I can understand why such a thing would be desired, as recently I've been in stressful situations where I'd be feeling one way and would have to reference previous logs/ commentaries to cross-reference. Ultimately, NAI but I really think this comes from a townie POV. I don't see why scum would want to limit potential pivots. -Votal. -Clarifies to BBM unaligned as 'not knowingly aligned'. Ok, so previous read stands. -Wants Sunwoo to expound on BBM and thoughts on Refa outside of the vote on the slot. Ok, prodding for information. -Reiterates stance that Rapier has a weird posting style, but content shows progression and reads from a town POV, so ignoring tone vibe and treating Rapier as v on reasoning. Adds Rapier/BBM not W/W to the pile. Clarifies votal script quirks. First half is the content; shows Makaze standing ground on Rapier position, adds Rapier/BBM alignment read which would fit townreading Rapier and scumreading BBM. -votal -ignore votepost -votal again, claims it feels right. -Clarification about why Prims vote doesn't show up. Page 3. -States script is broken. Rip. -States why two separate votes failed, due to bolding quirk. -Elaborates on BBM read as initial scum vibes and frozen-esque reaction to pressure. States nothing has shown up to change feelings. OK. Consistent with worldview, explains the gutvibe into continued vote. I'm sitting here wondering if maybe Shinori would be a stronger vote but I don't think this necessarily makes sense as a vote park? -Votal -Link to a script to save posts. -Talks about ISO and votal scripts getting upgraded. -Votal, talks about BBM breaking the script with a mention. -Talks to cam about gut instinct/intuition, claims that is heavy prio over logic until lategame. Claims BBM read is fully vibes, still willing to die on that hill. Does not expect to be sheeped. Not going to make up a case with thin content. Confident that if right, BBM's content will generate reasons, and evidence isn't needed to be right from post 1. Talks about alignment reads; believes reasons for belieinf these reads are pretty accurate, and those snap reads happen in real time when first read. If notes aren't taken, they run the risk of being caught up in thread and forgotten, and admits difficulty with keeping thoughts aligned with feelings when it comes to reads. States would like to have time windows tied to when the ideas were made so remembering why the ideas were had is possible over having to guess why worldview was so complex later in the game when casing. IE, showing work for both future self and for everyone else. Paraphrases it as not trying to appear townie or casing, but openly trying to solve. Part of this goes back to the 'second memory' remark I've previously spoken about, a lot of this is admitting that reads are vibe-based which are frustrating reads to argue with. Similarly, not casing is really annoying as arguing is one of the core aspects of this game. With those in mind, this reads as having a lot of self-confidence and reckless abandon. I don't think it's scummy. Frustrating is a fair word to describe the process, but not suspicious. -Votes Marth, states still wants BBM gone, best rational explanation is entrance felt off(which is vibes-based). Admits read is thin and nebulous. States deathtunneling the read but unsure why beyond BBM not questioning alignment. Claims BBM questions are meaningless and no meaningful contribution. Claims BBM is coasting on RVS vote, which prob felt off because OMGUS but also felt forced, like required to RVS so went to slot. Thinks BBM was avoiding a meaningful vote, admits could be reading too much into the vote, but is comfortable doing that at this point. States Marth "has all kinds of weirdness and fits in with a BBM scumteam" so consolidates there until something better becomes available. Tunnelling townie or opportunistic scum? You decide. For me, I'm annoyed by the BBM to Marth ratio here considering the vote swap but the Marth vote is a followup to the previous remark noting the Weirdness in the slot. So it makes sense. -States is willing to table BBM read for now, as if correct it is for wrong reasons, so no need to keep pressure up. Does not need agreement, but has self confidence that the read is correct. OK. NAI. -Votal -Votal, bedpost, states will re-eval tomorrow and stop posting until people catchup or get to threshold. This demonstrates concern about how frequent the posting was, not sure if scum would care about clogging up the thread. NAI at worst. -Asks if Refa has a specific question, or a general confusion about the BBM read. notes that Refa has been confused multiple times, would like to see conclusions or "fruition" after getting answers. Explains BBM push, states has a gut feeling over solid reasoning based on first post. States belief BBM is not making moves and is reserving judgement for later, which while NAI is off because a read on slot voter should have been formed by this point fromeither RVS or from tunnel. Reads the distancing as recognizing that Makaze is not an easy pocket and refusal to engage with a "impossible situation", which fits with preservation but doesn't explain lack of read. Claims I have a bead on Makaze meta, claims it could be a pocket attempt. Claims I'm not seriously considering the slot. Denies pocket, could be I'm just right but is waiting to see if my other reads make sense. States is too lazy to explain Marth read, but has been getting weird vibes and believes reads were not real from entrance, and marth feels like opportunist (prims loan word) who is moving but not forming opinions. Closes with offering to fill in missing links if pinged. It really feels here like Makaze starts with the vibe then builds up a case as the post is being written; This is frustrating to argue against but I don't think these cases are misreps or pushes onto viewed townies. Rather I think at worst the BBM case is a tunnel, as I vibe with the Marth read. As for the section on me, I wouldn't say 'not considering' as much as 'not wanting to step anywhere near this conflict. Because if and when I do, this shit happens. I feel like these reads are consistent with the ISO and am struggling to come up with scum equity for them. -Asks if Weapons' question has ever led to anything; in spoiler (ISO can't load it sob) goes on a tangent expressing distaste for the question, because the only real helpful answer would be someone saying "I wouldn't do anything different as scum because this is how I play"; ie it's schmuck bait. Concludes it as NAI, but states heavy preference for pinning people on their actions. NAI. It dodges answering the question but self-meta is kind of pointless. I agree the question's kinda ??? at best. -Asks Sunwoo if there's a specific type of content that would help relate. NAI, will note this is not a loaded question, but this could be said by either alignment. - Quotes Refa who has a scumread on slot. In strikethroughs, explains does not feel a need to pressure scumreads as that will not reveal more information that is not presented already. Believes none of slot's strong read claims are being taken seriously, so is looking for town while everyone else catches up to the correct reads. Believes there might (there is) a disconnect between game approaches, and that this is a thing to improve on compared to previous game; when the decision is made to scumread someone, writes off all decisions and focuses on convincing other people instead of going head to head. Mentions habit of not interacting with people unless townreading them. In plain text, admits indecision with how to approach the game, states is going to start interacting, thanks Refa for the prod. -I think this can be viewed as being agreeable/appeasing when called out instead of pushing the point. Strikethroughs are self-meta + frustration/despair at how the game's treating the reads. I don't agree with writing off all decisions as the read can and will change; not sure how you'd convince other people without casing them, and not interacting with the scumreads means even those interactions cannot be cited as evidence. The insecurity is a turn and it at odds with the probably correct strikethrough; here's where the cordiality case has some merit. I don't believe it outweighs previous actions, though, and could also be read as Makaze's self-confidence is beginning to be tested. -Asks Elieson about which posts are 'forced' and, who helped convince Elie of this viewpoint. NAI, seems to be info collecting. Does not argue the point. -BBM case, states inability to read anything but scum from BBM; states is unable to articulate why and feels like any case will be tuned out and treated as 'tunneling' Goes to summarize BBM's ISO. Summary is kind of like this: BBM opens with an RVS/nonsense vote. Asks Makaze why the scumread, gets answered but does not follow up. BBM next votes Prims over Prims' getting on Makaze case over the SK spec. Did not comment directly on said SK spec. Concern is BBM is treating Makaze alignment as a given, which stems from post 1. BBM is ok with the 'random' alignment claims, does not commit to a solid Shinori read. Switches to vote me but reasoning defends Marth (chainsaw) without directly talking to said slot, so reads as associative vibe. BBM vote on my slot is perceived as "toothless", no discussion with me despite talking to Makaze/Prims. Questions if these are 'pressure votes' by BBM. Questions if there was ever any pressure before BBM recanted the vote. Questions legitimacy of interaction. Believes criticisms of play also apply to BBM, and admits perception of it being silly to say "it's only OK when I do it", feels like BBM is picking specific posts instead of stating full reads. Concludes with believing BBM is "waffling hard" and asks BBM to clarify which votes on Marth wagon are most suspicious and who was intended to be pointed at. I think this case is pretty good and highlights some concerns I've had with BBM, specifically the marth defence and the limited interaction before I forced the point. This is an awful lot of effort and world consistency to come from scum POV. -wondering about Cam's font issue, posts a brief read list. Read list is 😕 content-wise but I mean I don't think that's an issue right now! I don't agree with Weapons town read and Percivale is in a sort later bucket for me but I remember reading this post at the time and agreeing with the PoE. Specifically Marth/Prims. Elieson being there was a but OMGUSy, but at the same time, not up to date and on a slot I'm warming up to, so. -explains to j00 the concept of pocketing. -edit on typo on the reads list post. -explains personal difference between pocketing and 'buddying', I would argue the lines are blurry. NAI. -States belief "playing things closer to [...] chest" is the way to proceed. Asks Charlie to give alist of PoE. NAI, indicates a shift in playstyle. -expresses frustration/disagreement with how people have treated slot, in terms of responses. NAI, lines up with paradigm shift. -States is not following BBM's post, doesn't think the discussion is going anywhere in terms of casing/convincing. Asks again who is the worst on marth wagon, and who is the most opportunistic as opposed to starting it. This reads as playstyle clash (as has been previously indicated) and a redirect to an earlier question that was not satisfactorily answered. The persistence on that question reads town to me. Page 4 -Asks charlie to elaborate on list of people they don't want to elim today. Is fine with a one liner list. This is expressing interest in another player's priorities or what could be seen as their 'towncore', which would line up with the applications from page 1. -States is actually reading BBM now, asks about Sunwoo and Charlie being town/voting ok despite earlier claim that 'everyone on wagon was scummy'. This is a good catch because BBM at :06 states whole wagon is scummy, then 3:36 later backpedals to flip reads on the two mentioned. That's not readily reconciled. -Asks BBM to cite which Weapons posts are scummy. NAI, drawing info out of a scumread onto a perceived townread. -Claims BBM reasoning triggered alarm bells aka gut reaction. Asks BBM to post the specific posts/progression of the 'copying own meta' thing, and specific elements of this post. This does not read as scum trying to get someone to overcommit as much as it reads as town trying to get a case out of someone who decided in the quoted post to step back. -this is awkward to summarize. Effectively calls back to the statement made that slot's content is going to be accused of being made up because intuition is the reason for the read, not arguments; tries to explain reads anyways using events that happen after the read; As expected is dismissed/accused of making up reasons. States only way thread will agree with slot is if something more damning is forced out. States options as someone who is perfectly confident with "something no one else can relate to" are to believe it quietly, or believe it loudly. States all cases are going to be fabricated until there's real evidence aka mechanics or associatives, and does not expect to live to the end unless meaningfully wrong all game. Iterates that reading slot on case quality will not work; instead accuracy should be looked at when reading slot. A lot of this post is self meta but I really really think this is townie frustration. As said in the post Makaze predicted the dismissal and seeing it come to life must be incredibly irritating to understate things. I think the point about the cases is awful, but not in terms of scumminess. Rather, I think the belief that all cases are 'fabricated' is flatout wrong. I believe cases begin with players noticing posts, getting vibe checks, and following that vibe check to look at content and build on the read. 'Fabrication' is more tied to weaving it out of thin air, and I believe feelings are a real base for cases, so 'constructing' would be a better fit. quick note: This post was caused by a j00 post, who I've previously expressed issues with on an irritation level. I don't know if this is a standard thing with the slot or if they're not reading the game; regardless, I want to note on the record this isn't the first time this sort of thing has happened. -Provides insight on play by stating main exposture has been as a spectator only for 5 years. NAI, may explain refusal to case/argue a bit. -Asks Weapons what Rapier reasoning is considered manipulative. NAI, this is asking to stake out a position on a slot previously viewed as towncore. -Asks weapons to quote an example or two with regards to rapier feeling fake. NAI, this is consistent with previous inquiry and style. -Doesn't think Prims case/inquiry is going to go anywhere. Suggests Prims might know what slot's thinking about weapons. Spoiler is talking about MU not teaching how to play and how SF is the forum Makaze has played the most on. Further explanation on spectator server; points to it as reason for behaviour. Reiterates gutread, couches main read on a post-by-post experience and not an ISO. Was attempting objectivity when explaining the read. States that the reason for the gut read was not rational based on the pure content; states again that the post feels 'off, and the read is never going to 'feel' as serious from an outsider's pov than when it was all that was being worked with." I don't like the shutdown of the argument; I think engaging with that argument is more productive as the case can be poked with holes/weakened with interaction if it is not ironclad. I think otherwise this is Makaze sticking to the gut read/vibes presented so far.I believe Makaze is shifting Weapons down in terms of town reads. -Asks Weapons to cite a specific example or post that caused the 'lacks doubt' vibe from Rapier. NAI, getting Weapons to pin down specific bits of Rapier's actions as a litmus test of both. -Strengthens Rapier read. States is taking criticism but is unsure how to fix it because of way of being until something more solid comes along. Does not know of another way to play. States does not have reasons until evidence, and that scum/towntells are relative whereas they reduce to vibes anyways. Talks about association reads, believes Shinori, Sunwoo, and Marth are not W/W/W, but if Shinori is W one of Sunwoo/Marth are more likely to be W. Believes Refa/Shinori could be W/W from Shinori's end, but less strongly so. Has people to shield from elim, but doesn't really want to prio within PoE when people are not taking the gut reads seriously atm. Restates PoE of BBM, Marth, Elieson, Prims, mentions Refa/Weapons as borderline/being added to PoE. Believes the engagement/style conflict with Prims happens every game, states this is leading to a lack of confidence in Prims read, states Prims has lategame equity. Believes vibe being perceived is just like previous game, and so is starting to believe Prims is townie. Conversely, souring on Weapons as content feels flimsy and gets 'throwing shade' vibes + feels opportunistic. Specifies belief that Weapons reads are based on 'generic scum patterns' and possibilities instead of certainties. Believes claims Weapons is making about Rapier appear to be projections. Closes with not strong reads on Percivale and Myself, but does not think either of us should be elimmed today. I think the agreeability, at least in terms of the rapier criticism and prims read, is present, but beyond that, explains more in terms of associative reads, doubles down on a longstanding townread despite the tide shifting against them, maintains a mostly consistent PoE (I feel like Prims is the ? there), explains shifts in read about Weapons, which follows the probing questions from earlier. -States is not as confident in ability to justify feelings as said feelings, is not going to be mad at people for feeling that those justifications are post-facto, as they are and will always be until solid evidence is had. Does not believe there are universal tells. If slot is to catch anyone, it is going to be for 'wrong reasons', and does not expect anyone to put up a fight if the slot is correct with no basis. States is unsure what BBM thinks of weapons, as appears as though BBM is both shading and sheeping is happening at different points. Asks BBM how a Weapons elim sounds. Asks BBM who is not in PoE. First bit is meta talk/gameplay approach talk, I think a lot's been said about it but while there might not be universal tells, there are a lot of common tells that can be picked up on, even if initial reaction is 'gut'. Elaborating on view of BBM's weapons read or lackthereof is good, it feels like exchanging information rather than a one-sided question. PoE question is more NAI, but could also be usedto gauge other slots at a later point in time. Slight townlean. -Asks BBM to clarify who would be shielded/defended from elim. NAI. -States is going to leave thread, in a self-defeating way. Spoiler says will be back soon, asks about "leaving a legacy that won't matter until later" with the motive of self-improving. Unspoiled is NAI, if a little selfaware of the thread reception. I don't get the legacy bit, unless it's meant in terms of reads to pass forward. NAI -States when expressing thoughts, thread's confusion seems to escalate. States Prims and Weapons were moving in PoE during restatement, and movement was explained as they were moved. Clarifies that Prims is at bottom of PoE and was not moved enough to escape it, and Weapons is moved back in over Rapier case and weasilyness. Reiterates difficulty in reading Prims, but attack method feels like prior games, thus the townie read. States Prims read is spot-on, but defends relating to people better when they scumread slot. I don't like the conceding to the point about Prims casing. That's only feeding into the 'submissive' narrative. I feel like the PoE progression makes sense, cannot comment on the meta read. Let's go with pings two ways. -States it's not fair to say sole focus has been BBM; States has been trying to focus on other things and has engaged with others, but keeps getting drug back to update about BBM, Pings Refa and explains read; believes Refa is being "uncharitable"(me loan word) with reads. States belief that Refa has been listing both good and bad points about people, then siding with bad points. Case on slot was "an extreme example", but not the only one. Believes Refa's bullet point wall feel like the reads were predetermined and arguments were made post facto, relates it as to when someone has a case one disagrees with Refa does same thing, and ultimately arrives at conclusions regardless of the case, and it feels like a "performance". States Refa and slots reads are almost polar opposites, and that is not what is expected of Refa. Asks who on slot's wagon is most suspicious. I fully relate to the BBM thing, except switch BBM with marth. Still NAI. I don't know what to think about the Refa thing because I have Refa as a townread, but I don't think this reads as intentional misrepresentation and I think voicing these concerns leans more to townie rather than scummy mindset. I might have to reeval Refa. Asking about the wagon is NAI. -Votals -Answers Weapons question on second attempt. States that slot would be making fancier plays and hoping that more 'wackiness would preserve slot. OK. NAI. - Votals. Spoiler quotes what appears to be a Refa post from earlier in the game. NAI, Refa on the mind. -Votals, vote history in spoilers. -Clarification about a vote in the votals script. -Lynchproof/governor softclaim. Way too early imo. We were closer to 2 days than 1 at this point. -meme post -Asks for clarification from Prims expectation. -Explains Meme post. Cites XKCD. I could see lolcatting but sounds more like injecting humour. Page 5 -Votals, believes Prims adjustment is in effect. -States crumbing for PR is a valid strategy regardless of veracity. Self meta, NAI. -Explains previous statement, more of game theory. Self meta, NAI. -Asks about secret to holding it in. it being calling people wolves wolves wolves. This reads as frustration with the playstle clash/ asking for genuine advice. Could see a lolcat angle if you think lynchproof on is lolcatting. -Asks in general which wagon between Refa and Weapons is purest. This is not lolcatting; I don't see why someone who believes they're outed as scum would ask about this. -Asks broadly if any scum are inactive. This is 'temperature checking', I believe. NAI. -Explains desire for opinions or if anyone has a gamestate read on scum activity to Cam. NAI. -Votals -Strikethroughs belief Weapons is being set up for a town-led Clown Fiesta Deadline elimination while the mafia sit back and chill off-wagon. I don't know how serious this read is but it would be a significant shift from previously. -Asks me about Marth Elim. OK. -Says my post feels good. Thanks. NAI. -Posts deadline timer for (Percivale?). NAI. -States is not townreading Marth and is suspicious of switch to Refa wagon. But otherwise agrees with charliepost. Asked earlier which wagon between Refa and Weapons had most town on it. Would like to hear more thoughts on it. This indicates that Refa's wagon might have wolves on it, but not why Weapons would get flipped on by town towards EoD. Not a cohesive thought imo, but NAI. -Calls out a perceived pattern on Shinori saying "hmm interesting" and needing to consider things more. I think the observation fits with earlier interactions and is consistent. I'd probably make this observations if I had same context. -Cut off bit due to mobile, but wants to see some conclusions from Shinori, believes the pattern is "a bad thing". This reads as a natural followup to mentioning the pattern. -States is struggling to see how Shinori intends to "win" the game does not believe any of their actions have led to an improved ability to read players. Believes Shinori comments on facts other players have uncovered, but does not come to conclusions ("Interesting, but no conclusions" is what I, Snike, would point to) Believes Shinori is not getting closer to solving the game. Asks what Shinori's strategy is. This section is a followup to the previous two posts and i believe it's a natural progression, even if Makaze's read is off-kilter. I think the point about a lack of conclusions is especially reasonable when previously there were "interesting" things about being brought up in a choose 1 scenario. Makaze tried to get Shinori to expound, but was refused. -States to BBM that Marth's actions arefake or at least feel fake, their actions have not mindmelded with slot once about anything. States their reads list makes no sense and contradicts own opinions. States like most scumreads, Marth is not pushing a town agenda like forming a town core or making sure a specific scum is being elimmed. States actions are calculated and "fine", and that is the extent of it. States also looking at associatives. Believes Marth's Refa vote is very strange and believes Marth is certain red if Refa is red. If I speak I am in big trouble. So I will say this: I still don't think Refa is wolf here without review, and I disagree with Makaze on that. -Asks weapons what there is to show for doing the thing. Asks Weapons if anyone feels ingenuine. NAI, questioning is consistent with previous records. -Responds to BBM thsat if marth thought Refa/Marth would both be wagons, Marth would try to get on earlier instead of sheeping later. NAI, falls into WIFOM territory of possibly -Laughs at "would SFmafia really bus a buddy?" -Feels good again about Weapons, does not want to elim today. Brings up elieson who has shown up but has not updated reads. I don't know how I feel about the Weapons bit; probably this is a case of being semi-agreeable but this is a snap decision/pivot characteristic of Makaze. I still think Elieson is a low-value lynch. -States has not read reads on charlie/ Percivale, believes is tuning out reads about charlie because has not slept in two days. Does not believe Refa flipping blue would change thoughts on Marth, since Marth is the strange one. Believes redflip would point more strongly to Marth since weirdness would be more likely to be buddies. Does not remember at moment if refa -> Bluedoom has anything like that. States cannot place a single thing from Marth that feels genuine; States every post made is hoping things will be different; but that has not happened. First things first, Makaze should go the fuck to sleep. The two-days no sleep (and on birthday!) should be more than enough to affect mental/reads and explains some of the wacky behaviour. Secondly, would point out that if Marth is sus regardless, keep the push there. I'm legally obligated not to comment on other Marth stuff. -States does not understand unvoting instead of voting someone else in PoE; also clarifies bot voting script. I agree with first point, rest is NAI. -Explains to Rapier that slot has spent time asking Shinori questions, and the responses have been inconclusive aka "the kinds of things I am talking about every time"; states is telling people is tired of it out of exasperation, and doesn't think direct inquiry will change things. This reads as frustrated town, not scum trying to push a Shinori angle. -States BBM has been forming opinions and is easier read than Shinori with how things have gone. Does not believe this is necessarily scummy, but it is annoying. NAI. I think the Shinori commentary is consistent here. Page 6 -Does not see Shinori's side of the argument with Percivale. Believes because Shinori assumes Weapons must be Town, looks like Shinori is acting with TMI instead of Percy. Claims TMI goal was attacking Percivale instead of convincing people of Town!Weapons by proxy, suggests might be true goal. Does not believe subsequent post quote comesfrom belief of town!Percivale, whereas tonally feels like it is treating them as town. Asks Shinori what the expected reaction to the interaction. Asks Shinori when Percy townread started. States observation about Shinori where argument is "would they really do X as scum" to lead into WIFOM. Asks why Shinori doesn't believe an option and propose it. Asks what benefit of talking about both worlds is. I think this post is a mess. First point is ok, Observation is OK, but the middle bit about the mindset into tone bit I'm lost on. I want to say this is again going into the being up for two days thing because this is ???? -realizes bit is butchered, clarifies Shinori seems to be treating via as town. OK, resolves earlier section. I don't think it's TMI FWIW I think the assumption from Shinori is based on Percivale wording. -Talks about votes not meaning anything unless they lead to an Elim. Talks about votes being performative. Everything is performative. Votes add pressure, they cement stances on positions, they can be referenced later for further unsight. L take. Not a scum take, this is playstyle clash. -Reads BBM as contrarian, reads it as an attempt to undermine reads, is unsure how that helps town game. NAI? I feel like this is a genuine take. -States will move vote when it impacts elim, does not see a reason to change it for appearances. I disagree, it's a useful tool when you don't have a hyperfirm scumread. This is again playstyle clash, not wolfy. I don't think a wolf would say this? -States dislike for site. In terms of posting, mood -talks about form saving again. -Doesn't think votes are more real than post content; does not see anymore merit than using FOS. Believes it gets more interesting with Hammer and EOD. I disagree, that's why voting history exists; it documents vote shifts, which can then be referenced later. -States BBM has an element of WIFOM in all arguements, but chooses an alternative without presenting said alternative. Claims BBM is fighting narratives, not pushing them. I don't think this is true; but I would say BBM's narratives off of memory are typically not home cooking, so to speak. They typically have at least one other compatriot. -Decides to test using vote as per Sunwoo, and puts Refa at deadline lynch. I feel like the Refa read in PoE makes sense from ISO PoV, but I would argue Marth is clearly the common factor in suspicions. Reads a bit as frustrated townie. -votals. Spoiler has an old Weapons quotepost. -Says philosophy may not be liked but that doesn't make slot scum. Spoiler says going to bed before making less sense. Inclined to agree with first bit. Second is what should've been done hours beforehand. -Apologizes for insufferability; states BBM is town on snap read; says quoted post is evidence as the frustration is genuine and unlikely for scum to walk away from. So here's some agreeability, but I think Makaze is tired, and is having a confidence crisis here. The BBM read shift is significant but would be in lines with a snap judgement, especially as focus has been on Shinori/refa/Marth lately. -Does not know what deadline lynch means. NAI. -Asks if this (refa at deadline) is a good thing. It's a good thing ie that there'd be a lynch, but it's too early for that overall. NAI. -Answers prims by citing specific posts from both Refa and Weapons to suggest they not W/W. Is confident, but not infallibly so. This more lines up with worldview and position on Weapons being town, Refa being Wolf, and the lower certainty from the BBM bit. -States did not notice deadline threshold, links office scene coming to mind. NAI. -Reads Marth as "Playing the people", but does not believe the slot is solving alignments. K. I'm just here so I don't get fined. -States PoE is now Marth, Elieson, Prims, Refa, Shinori, Charlie pending a serious read. States BT, myself, Percivale need to be stored but read good tone. Believes in overfocus on active people, believes read is probably wrong on one, but that will be found out in lategame. I think the PoE update matches the updates in ISO, though Weapons jump seems drastic not entirely certain why j00 reads as townier than the sorts. Charlie is a slot I haven't put enough time into but I thought was ok when interacting earlier. -Asks prims about quote conversion. -States forgot about Weapons, states slot is feeling better despite laziness the more is read. OK. I don't agree but this is a consistent view from ISO. -Talking more about quotes. -Asks Sunwoo how a vig of Makaze and thus town flip would affect worldview. Seems genuine interest, could indicate a shift on Sunwoo. -Asks marth same question. NAI. Page 7 (jesus christ) -States is more interested in seeing if Marth is townminded or is thinking more about positioning due to knowing the possibility so to speak. Reads as inquisitive town; this is not loading the question. -Snap removes Prims from PoE. I kinda agree. -Twelve waffles? I don't see that many. What I see is passive voice and counching statements Confusion maybe? I don't believe that's scummy. -Claims Sinori is not doing anything other than intellectual arguing. Reads it as they're looking at what they should believe w/ evidence instead of figuring out the world. I don't think so? Disagree with this read; I feel like Shinori's playing closer to what I remember from town. -Asks shinori what possibility they think is the reality, and how Shinori would test to prove it. This is in line with their claim about considering the multiple worlds/not making conclusions. I'm inclined on these bits and SHinori recent stuff that this is town on town violence. -Clarifies sentence for Shinori; states belief that Shinori was reading with an agenda; believes Shinori has mentioned other things that could be justifying;does not have vibe that shinori is finding out beliefs rather than Justifications. I don't agree with this take but I think clarifying the position leans Town. -Clarifies that Shinori is posting reasonable arguments but does not commit to a specific world to view. Feels like it's weird because Shinori isn't narrowing down PoE. TLDR is belief is Shinori is not genuinely solving. I want to say this leans town and is in line with previous train of thought on Shinori. I still think it's town v town. -Cites a post to further expound the read, states Shinori is looking at who looks to be the scummiest, not whether Rapier is actually maf. Believes the read is a 'who is the easiest to shade'. I don't see the difference? I think Marth is the scummiest, and I also think Marth is mafia. Wouldn't Shinori do the same? -States "Rapier could be scummy" vs "Rapier could be scum",asks BBM for their view. I'm not seeing the direct dichotomy? -Acknowledges the scummiest/skinniest type from 2 posts ago; I omitted it but it was there. -Asks Shinori what it is possible that someone "could be" scummy? I have nothing this Q is mangled. -Clarifies "What" is supposed to be "How". States is going to read charlie. I think the question is accurate; scumminess is usually a yes/no thing, so 'could be' is weird,provided Shinori actually said that. -Asks because Makaze wanted to see who would lead town, but enjoys line. Claims Marth is setting up possible arguments against possible town leaders. Believes this is characteristic of the case against Marth. I don't see this as scummy; this is in line with previous Marth criticism. -response to BBM reinforces the look at 'could be' angle on Shinori. Frames it as Archtype vs reality, or uh conceptual vs pratical read. I don't see this as a misrep. -Admits Shinori didn't say could be but instead points to the possibility into the admission by Shinori they could be wrong about one of their reads. I don't think this reasoning holds up because Shinori saying 'possibility' in the first bit is moreof, Shinori believes in the world where Rapier is scum. The second quote is hours before the first and SHinori has had time to mull things over, so I'm fairly certain the Rapier read is not "could be scum". This reads as the wording being awkward and Makaze misinterpreting. -Believes Shinori's reaction is 'caught for the wrong reasons'. No, I'm thinking Shinori is town raging at the line presented; I don't think it works. -Responds to Marth, saying Marth's answers read like "moves instead of "worlds". Asks again; phrases it as if Makaze is out of game, not filling thread, what is the best strategy for town winning the game? Not commenting on Marth; I think Makaze trying to rephrase for clarity makes sense; this doesn't feel like a waste of time, and is polling Marth for further reads. -States it doesn't matter if wrong as long as slot can figure out that what someone is doing makes sense for them to solve the game, and asks for an explanation of SF solving meta if the slot is unable to see it. This doesn't read as fishing, this reads as asking for help to understand what SF 'solving' looks like. -Talks about Refa ISO, mentions treatment of the slot. States Refa has been a top scumread since start of game believes Refa has been making safe plays that have not pushed them out of PoE, scumreads are not aligned. Nothing Refa has done has vibed with slot, states Refa has tendenciy to state things are "fine" and bulldoze lines of reasoning to push cases on someone in top townreads or on slot itself later on. States putting Refa on min to elim was a happy accident, thought it would be highest votes would be elimmed; believes no votes matter until end of phase, does not understand anger over the fact that 'votes mean something'. I want to say the Refa read has been consistent and Rapier is wrong on the randomness; I don't know if I agree on the case vs Refa; I've gone over part of the early bit before. I can believe the ignorance about min elim. This is consistent, but i don't like the case in my limited purview. -States to Shinori maintains what Shinori said was not that X is scum, but that it is possible that X is still scummy. Decides to let the case speak for itself rather than harp on it, but stands by claim; believes it means something. Agrees to take a break to BT. I just don't agree here. stubborn town. -Does not take a break, takes quotes; Admits willing to admit tunnel vision and wording was not a slip; States slot thought that was mindset before posting linked message, and it was apiece of evidence. Not the case. States removing thecomment does not removethe context before it. States time will tell if the case perspective is accurate or not. States vibes similar to YOLO so backing off to breathe. States knows who thunderdome is. This feeds into the agreeable narrative but only if you ignore the leadup. I really do think that this is townie vs townie violence. -Snaps charlie as town, snaps rapier as miselim, would like to elim in Marth/Refa/Shinori/Elieson. Agreed on 2 of the PoE, the snap reads fit Town!Makaze and Rapier defense is consistent with most of ISO. -Agrees with shinori that its a useful interaction, states would feel better if reads agreed. I agree; I think it's just a bareknuckle brawl with the wolves laughing in between. -States Shinori misread or is losing memory. Shinori misread; Marth was never in towncore. -Asks Rapier for a list-post summary of players in the game, who makes sense with what team, esp with Makaze. IE Asks what world Rapier is viewing. NAI. -Asks rapier to be less argumentative the better since Rapier is arguing with specifics rather than the whole game. NAI. -Asks (SHinori?) to take a step back, stop interacting, to see if things start making sense. Asks Sunwoo to apply the same. Cryptic but I think it's a 'take a breath' sort of thing. NAI Conclusion: I strongly believe Makaze is town and should never go today. There are some weak points in the ISO but i think sleep dep contexts more than covers for them. I think Makaze/Shinori is V/V. I think between early BBM and consistent Refa reads Marth is the consistent point in being suspicious. So I saved post 1 at 2:45 AM. It's now 12: 15. 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Makaze Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 4 minutes ago, Rapier said: Weapons: Don't particularly like how he's been coasting since the beginning of the game, nor his first vote on me, nor his switch under the justification that he was no longer under threat of being lynched back then. I can see scum intent in his behavior and imo he's more likely to be scum than the other choices. Marth: Started finding it odd that he didn't vote for Refa when he was his biggest scumread, then he did the same again with Sunwoo but that time he chose to vote her. Felt inconsistent, strange and I assumed he was buddying up to Refa somehow. Their latest interactions don't make much sense and I think it's unlikely that Marth would bus him. I think his discussion with Boron means one of Boron/Marth is town, and so far I think she's more likely to be town. I'm confused about Marth and would put him as a null read, although slightly more towards town since I do enjoy his concern on reading tone and alignment versus breaking down logical inconsistencies as a reason for being scum. Shinori: Already said this exhaustively, but sure. Didn't like Shinori's earlygame content because despite being the top poster, he spent most of the time either joking or defending/justifying himself. His back and forth with SB was good, and I hadn't read that at the time I accused Shinori. Afterwards his content was ok, although I hadn't seen him pressing for any other player and ending his observations with "hmm, interesting", as Makaze observed (and I agree with). His reasons for voting me seem based on what I did on earlygame and whenever I interact with him, he's overly aggressive, protective of himself and cherrypicks my posts to make a point, saying I'm implying the opposite of what I already cleared with him. This reasoning is bad and everything overall gives me slight scumvibes on Shinori. Also Shinori has been coming at me like a cocaine bear after I said there were more pressing matters than his discussion with Makaze accomplished for us and that he's reacting too aggressively to protect/defend himself AGAIN. Makaze: There's too much fluff and questionable logic that gives out too much noise for me to assess Makaze properly. I don't think he'd be insisting and doubling down on his actions, especially when they got him placed against the wall, as scum. His erratic behavior seems more like an idiosyncrasy of his than a scum tell. Not digging a Makaze lynch, but not opposed to it on D2 onwards. I think D1 benefits from having someone with more concrete scum motives lynched instead. Not opposed to dayvigging him. BBM: I again don't like why he chose Weapons over me when he had a scumread on us both followed by what seemed like sound logic, but then he concluded one felt scummy and the other felt as confused town, which imo feels convenient since Weapons had a bigger wagon (but this brings another problem, as it wouldn't make sense for both to be scum and I scumread Weapons). imo his reason for voting me is the best on my wagon and I don't have a counterargument. If anything, it really is my fault that I haven't been more productive and helpful past RVS/early D1. I tried to bite more than I could chew and I have no excuse for this. Seems slightly more town aligned, especially due to his concerns on reading tone. Refa: After reading Refa, I feel that he's just... there. The entire game. I don't appreciate his reason for voting me because it feels like he's voting me for lacking content rather than scum intent (ha I'm good at rhyming), and I'm the competing wagon, so it feels like an easy vote. His switch to me also came in abruptly. Prims: Posts little, but I like his stances and prods so far. Slight townread on him. Sunwoo: Same as Prims, and I think both contributed well on RVS and early D1. She seems more distant since then, and the vibes on her posts seem a bit overprotective/conscious, but so far seems like a slight townread. SB: Their reason for voting me is pretty much the same Shinori has been using and feels pretty outdated. I don't particularly enjoy that it has been parked since yesterday morning, I've already clarified about this bit and I don't see any comment from SB either retracting or reinforcing their reasons for voting me, but I'm still "one of the biggest scumreads" alongside Refa(?) and Weapons. Cam: Appeared just a few times, which can be attributed to being busy irl, and I don't see anything really wrong with his reads, just that he doesn't seem to be pressuring people he finds suspicious or scummy. He comes down, takes a few posts to vote, then leaves. Neutral, although there's the slight hypothesis that he's scum flying under the radar on purpose. Elie: Is a SF myth probably I don't have any big/elaborate opinions on the other players. This is a 16p game and sure, this is my fault, I admit. Not enough energy or brainpower to have educated opinions on everyone and draw conclusions from their associations. I don't think this is scum vs scum. That's really all I can say and conclude from your back and forths, because again I'm focusing on more pressing matters for endphase. I also don't think it's helpful to use associative reads NOW, when we haven't even a flip on you guys, to guess whose wagon is more justified or not. This reeks of bad reasoning. For someone focused on my wagon, you could at least come up with a decent reason for voting me that isn't the same "he didn't read my posts with SB back then, therefore scum". Can you those piles into town/scum/and pure PoE? 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WeaponsofMassConstruction Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 31 minutes ago, Rapier said: @WeaponsofMassConstruction if Prims won't be a lynch, who would you choose between me, Refa and Weapons since we're the most likely to be lynched and we only have <10 hours left? That's hard, probably you, mainly because I have a harder time reading you, but again I don't feel great about lynching either of you. Why do you not consider eg Makaze a viable lynch given that he only has one less vote than me? I do want to stress again that we don't need to tunnel between us three. FWIW I don't think Shinori's recent points against you are particularly strong and you've defended them well enough. I'd probably be more willing to consolidate on Makaze, honestly. I feel like surely scum Makaze could come up with more resonant reasons for his cases than he has so far, and I doubt he's coming in here knowingly trying to AtE (back when that was a more a thing), but out of us four, just that none of his points I feel like are good is the most suspicious thing. Still would prefer to look outside at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaponsofMassConstruction Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 Are most people's reasoning toward Refa that he has not been pushing cases as hard as he should? If so, what makes this scum vs demotivated town? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shinori Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 5 minutes ago, Rapier said: Shinori: Already said this exhaustively, but sure. Didn't like Shinori's earlygame content because despite being the top poster, he spent most of the time either joking or defending/justifying himself. His back and forth with SB was good, and I hadn't read that at the time I accused Shinori. Afterwards his content was ok, although I hadn't seen him pressing for any other player and ending his observations with "hmm, interesting", as Makaze observed (and I agree with). His reasons for voting me seem based on what I did on earlygame and whenever I interact with him, he's overly aggressive, protective of himself and cherrypicks my posts to make a point, saying I'm implying the opposite of what I already cleared with him. This reasoning is bad and everything overall gives me slight scumvibes on Shinori. Also Shinori has been coming at me like a cocaine bear after I said there were more pressing matters than his discussion with Makaze accomplished for us and that he's reacting too aggressively to protect/defend himself AGAIN. Makaze: There's too much fluff and questionable logic that gives out too much noise for me to assess Makaze properly. I don't think he'd be insisting and doubling down on his actions, especially when they got him placed against the wall, as scum. His erratic behavior seems more like an idiosyncrasy of his than a scum tell. Not digging a Makaze lynch, but not opposed to it on D2 onwards. I think D1 benefits from having someone with more concrete scum motives lynched instead. Not opposed to dayvigging him. Doesn't ACTUALLY state a read on me. Cool. Just a bunch of a tl;dr of my posts and their thoughts on them. That's not a read. Says they are fine with dayvigging Makaze, and would potentially be fine with a Makaze lynch tomorrow or onwards. In otherwards NO CONCLUSION OF THE READ ON ME AND THEY ARE TOTALLY FINE WITH MAKAZE DYING AT THE HANDS OF TOWN. 5 minutes ago, Rapier said: I don't think this is scum vs scum. That's really all I can say and conclude from your back and forths, because again I'm focusing on more pressing matters for endphase. I also don't think it's helpful to use associative reads NOW, when we haven't even a flip on you guys, to guess whose wagon is more justified or not. This reeks of bad reasoning. For someone focused on my wagon, you could at least come up with a decent reason for voting me that isn't the same "he didn't read my posts with SB back then, therefore scum". But then we have the bolded! So does that mean you think I'm town? Because if we aren't scum v scum then ONE of us is town and you seem fine to kill makaze? Do not tell me "That's really all you can say" Nah I want a stronger read from you on me than what you posted above. Am I town? Yes or no? Am I scum? Yes or no? It's not that hard, you should have a stand point on this most of all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shinori Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 I actually just think rapier is like hard outted at the moment and they are having trouble to clarify their reads from a scum perspective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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