The Mafia to End all Mafias - GAME OVER

[Prims]

thinking specifically about the ITP in qprogue getting strongmanned n1. i just didn't think it would statistically happen!

[Fire Emblem Fan]

I told y'all I was Town! I TOLD you!

"You undervalued Cop TWICE and you don't know how Night mechanics work, you're Mafia!"

Of course I undervalued it! Like I've said multiple times, this is my first game ever. I had absolutely NO idea that Cop was valuable, and of course I wasn't clear on Night mechanics. That was the truth. I didn't tell a single lie this entire game.

Ah, well. This was fun! I enjoyed it a lot and I certainly look forward to playing more games in the future!

[Makaze]

Oooooof.

Well played Jamie! I think we always lost that one there.

Sorry FEF. For what it's worth, I thought you were a good actor, but got put in a bad spot by lack of experience.

You can gain an immediate advantage with one thing. Learn the value of different roles.

Consider the different cases. Is the role useful even if the targets are chosen at random? Hint: The most powerful roles are good even when used poorly.

For seems-good-but-actually-hard-to-use: Things like doctors only impact the game mechanically when they are good at choosing their target. You can impact who gets killed at night by claiming to be a doc, but your chance to actually save someone is low. Even if you do save them, you may have saved mafia.

For absolutely-broken-power: With investigations that reveal alignment, you can clear someone the mafia want to push for the vote elimination, or find the Mafia outright. No matter what result you get, or how good your choice is, it makes the game much harder for mafia by boxing them in.

In the middle are normal investigations. Watcher is super powerful similar to cop, but not as good, and Tracker is weaker than Watcher, but still very good.

Vigilante is swingy, because it can both help and hurt the town depending on the choices.

Roleblock is also swingy, same reason, as we saw this game.

When considering the value of a role, think about the best case and the worst case. You should always assume the worst case unless you can soundly eliminate it. Then you should assume the next worst case. The best role is the one that is the best even if you mess up.

Great game everyone. This was pretty impressive for having a lot of newbies IMO.

Edited September 15 by Makaze

[Makaze]

3 hours ago, JamieIsBored said:

Ahhhh, morning. 
I saw the kill happen, sorry for doubting you Shinori.

##Vote: @Eurykins

What a post lmao

[Makaze]

57 minutes ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

I told y'all I was Town! I TOLD you!

"You undervalued Cop TWICE and you don't know how Night mechanics work, you're Mafia!"

Of course I undervalued it! Like I've said multiple times, this is my first game ever. I had absolutely NO idea that Cop was valuable, and of course I wasn't clear on Night mechanics. That was the truth. I didn't tell a single lie this entire game.

Ah, well. This was fun! I enjoyed it a lot and I certainly look forward to playing more games in the future!

It is very hard to tell the difference between reasons for not thinking about something. Sorry I jumped the gun. I wasn't going to be convinced by anything but a better case on someone else, unfortunately. Bad luck to be going against Jamie in that scenario. I think Eury death would have led to the same end, killing you today instead.

[Bluedoom]

Sorry y'all for my inactivity, I was p sure of scum!Jamie but after D1 I kinda lost the script and didn't want to make a vote because I didn't want to make a possibly wrong vote, in hindsight just pushing jamie despite the claim was the play, but hindsight is 20-20

 

you played well, @Fire Emblem Fan, and sorry @DefyingFates for being wrong on you

[DefyingFates]

5 hours ago, Bluedoom said:

and sorry @DefyingFates for being wrong on you

No worries I suppose, I learned I need to do a better job of arguing my cases in the process 😛

[DefyingFates]

P.S. @Sunwoo You still need to update the thread title 🙂

[Sunwoo]

Could you guys tell this wasn't a great game for the host either, lol

Apparently, my mind wasn't completely here this week and updating stuff was a lot harder than it should've been. Sorry to the players for being flaky.

Postgame hopefully coming before the end of next week.

[Sunwoo]

Postgame Part 1: The Setup (aka the easy part)

So, while it's still relatively fresh in my mind, I wanted to explain why the setup is the way it is and what the method to my madness was.

This game was always intended to be a small, 9 player game with no vanillas but relatively low power.

There was always going to be a cop and a doc, because those are basic roles that are helpful for a new player-heavy game. The 1-shot copier worked on the scum's roles as well and was put in the game to give town a little extra info in the case that something useful died early. It allowed for the player to both take up a role and use it on the same night, which I only did because of this game's small size. Tree stump, insomniac, and courier were there to encourage the townies who had it to use their voice outside of the normal NOC day phase while living. The tree stump could stick around the phase after they died to help direct town discussion, the insomniac could post their thoughts during the night and offer post-flip analysis, while the courier bypassed usual NOC roles to share their reads with a strong townread. Basically, 3/7 town roles had active night actions that could gather info or keep townies alive, while 3/7 other town roles were meant to be using their extra communication tools to get their thoughts across since they weren't getting info.

Finally, there's the masshook. It wasn't intended to be a troll role, it was meant to be insurance for getting town another day under certain circumstances. In the case of a no-lynch or a successful doc save, town could get into a MYLO situation where they lynch incorrectly and a living masshook could stop the game from ending with the mislynch. It was meant to be a role where its usefulness was only in specific situations and not using it was a perfectly valid option.

As for scum, I was worried about them being underpowered because when there are only two, having a weak scum team is worse than when you have a greater numbers buffer. Scum primarily consisted of info roles with one factional "can't be stopped by anything" kill that was not tied to either player specifically. The 1x safeguard on the "Stormtrooper" role was actually not intended as a pseudo-strongman shot but apparently while I was designing the setup I forgot that it could be used in that way. (Thankfully, it never actually came into play, but still it was stupid on my part to include it.) The scum got a trackerwatcher because there's no way I'm putting a town watcher in a game of this size with a doc and a cop and if tracker was its own town role that people would speculate one of tracker or watcher had to be scum because tracker+cop+doc+watcher+copier is a bit too much power for a 9p game ...

I didn't expect this game to last longer than N3/D4, so I gave town doc and cop 2x shots that didn't get used up by masshook. That felt fair. Scum's rolecop and trackerwatcher were technically unlimited, although I suppose they theoretically would've gotten only an additional night of use had everything been equal.

If I could redesign the setup, I would've removed the 1x safeguard on scum (even if it wasn't used and never relevant, it still was a poor addition to a role that didn't need it), made the scum rolecop and trackerwatcher 2x use like the rest of the town active roles, and ... I guess made masshook a 1x regular hook with a different song I dunno.

Original setup had a bulletproof and macho martyr that I ended up throwing out in favor of other roles, because that was too much fucking protection. I don't regret that. I'll leave it to your imagination as to which roles got added in favor of those.

Honestly, if people listened to and enjoyed the songs, I'd still consider this game a success.

Player analysis coming later. Much later. I have a headache.

[Sunwoo]

Player analysis incoming so late I don't think it's very useful anymore, don't get offended if I don't post a lot for you.

DefyingFates and Fire Emblem Fan did pretty well for their second and first ever games, imo, and had pretty accurate reads even if they didn't quite know how to express them as convincingly as the veterans.

DF, I'd say that the main thing you want to work on is just wording your arguments. You did a lot better than Vig mafia in giving opinions, so next game work on sounding less overly cautious and making your thoughts sound more original. It's okay to agree with other players' cases, but if you do it's always useful to add in some of your own thoughts to add onto that case, so you're really committing to a read and contributing your own points to a case. Also, if you know that you aren't going to be around for the deadline because of known time zone or schedule issues, you'll want to establish that as soon as possible and get a definite "do you guys want me to claim" before you leave. Other than that, I'd say just keep playing and you'll get a feel for all this stuff I'm telling you. It's not always easy to get reads even when you do everything veterans tell you to do, so you'll have to just figure out what works for you.

FEF, you couldn't have known this but in general with a role like yours you'll want to use it immediately, especially when something useful dies. As the host, I'm not supposed to be telling you anything that could influence how you play, which is why I didn't mention it during the game. Other than that, I think you had a good case on Jamie and good on you for not folding and giving up and arguing your case to the end. I guess at this point you just want to play more to familiarize yourself with what generally makes sense as town or scum actions in mafia and game mechanics as a whole. 

While I don't believe in giving newbies a pass just for being new, I do think the veterans missed that DF and FEF had town-slipped at times. Like DF not realizing that the most common distribution for a 9-player game is 7/2 and not 6/3, and FEF not quite understanding night action mechanics. Sure, you could argue that it was done for town cred at the suggestion of a more experienced scum buddy, but considering that FEF misunderstanding night actions actually got him in more trouble, that wasn't even town cred.

Honestly, I think the thing that tripped up the rest of the town players was Jamie and Ichigo interactions. You guys basically convinced yourselves that Jamie and Ichigo could not be scum/scum and refused to seriously reconsider that. Even when roles like cop and doc and a 1-shot copier/amnesiac had flipped and a town watcher would just make for a very OP town and bussing exists.

The other thing I just want to say is that I don't put in useless or completely anti-town roles for no reason. I get not being thrilled about rolling courier or mass hook, but I was a bit annoyed that no one really paused to consider why I would put a mass hook in the game. Like, it's not there just to troll the person who rolled it. Also, courier is not exciting but it's limited OC nonetheless and can be used efficiently (see: me in Avatar mafia).

Elie, I don't actually have as much of a problem with your inactivity because you told me you were busy and the game wouldn't have started anyway, but I do have an issue with the fact that your actions while alive were basically to just fuck with town. Sure, you drew the scum kill, but in the scum PM they literally chose to not use their unstoppable kill on N1 because they didn't think a doc would be on you. Also, you sent Shinori a message that the backup had copied DF, and before you realized DF was cop tried to claim that a cop had scanned someone, just to fuck with him. And that put more heat on FEF that didn't need to be there, because people didn't realize immediately you'd been trolling, so ... like, it kinda sucked that your actions might have been actively detrimental to town in the long run.

Shinori, I get your frustration with the game and your role and the people (including me). But I legitimately don't know why you never stopped to seriously consider that Jamie could've just played an amazing bus game. Or reconsidered the already flipped roles.

Makaze and Eury, you guys did well enough aside from the Jamie thing (which you guys aren't alone in). Again, not sure why you guys never really stopped to consider confirmed roles or bussing. Also, sorry for trying to get you to sub in for like a million different people before finally subbing you in, Makaze, and thanks for subbing in.

Marth played okay while he was there. I understand the absence on D1, and next time you should have more confidence in your reads.

Jamie and Ichigo really made me concerned that they were going to tie themselves to one another with their interactions in early D1 and get lynched quickly. But they managed to distance from themselves enough so that most of the players who were left at the end didn't seriously consider them buddies. Jamie, the one bit of advice I'd give you is that the FEF vote you did on D1 was kinda bad. It did come off too reactive and almost got you lynched (good thing you were watcher) and Ichigo I don't really blame you for this because you wouldn't have known my host meta, but I'm not a fan of vanillas so the likelihood of you being a vanilla was very low and at least one townie was tipped off by this.

Weapons: did not play in the game, but wanted to be in postgame. So here you go I guess?

If you have any questions or concerns, I guess holler.

Edited 9 hours ago by Sunwoo