OMG it's a tier list

[whack a mole]

Just out of curiosity, has it already been discussed whether their should be any tiering difference between Gatrie (N) and Gatrie (T). Is Gatrie (T) really worse than Titania, and is Gatrie (N) really better than Leanne?

[Anouleth]

I think Meg, Astrid, and maybe Fiona are more useful than Kyza and especially Pelleas.

Mainly because their spots are free tickets.

Here's certain things I found useful for them, idk if it counts.

In 1-5 you can have Meg attack a tiger or cat that does not kill her and then have Micaiah+wrath sacrifice. I was lucky because that very first tiger the one closest to the units was weak and i did that right away :). I found this useful along part one, also a support with Ilyana is certainly useful. She's also better to take the hit from a mage and she can weaken them and have someone else take the kill that way the other unit does not get damage from the mage.

Astrid is useful for hit and run, on the very first turn I have all of my units attack an enemy and accomodate them in a fashion to guard Astrid (canto helps). Then I don't have to worry about her since she will be hitting and running back to a tall grass spot. She won't be doing much damage but any damage is certainly helping clear the path for Geoffrey. Data transfered Astrid is even better or not as bad.

Fiona is useful for that Earth support and free saviour makes her useful in other ways. In Part 3 is where she is noticeably more useful for her rescuing.

Pelleas also has a free ticket but he has hit issues and I think doubling issues as well unless you trade him with a thunder tome. You also have to wait two turns for him and he would have to be rushing into the fighting.

I believe the concept behind Kyza that high is that you can give him a Speedwing and instantly have a guy with 26 speed who will double everything but Swordmasters in Part 3 (and he only needs to proc speed once to go on and do the same in Part 4). If you wanted to go really crazy, you could give him an Energy Drop too, so he has 38ATK/26AS. Incidentally, a level 20 Ike has 40ATK/26AS with a Steel Blade. So yeah...

The point is that Kyza doesn't take a massive amount of effort to salvage, and in fact if you're willing to surrender a Drop and Wing, he's actually got good stats and movement. Assuming Kyza in play, he gets more out of those stat boosters than any other individual unit.

[Narga_Rocks]

I believe the concept behind Kyza that high is that you can give him a Speedwing and instantly have a guy with 26 speed who will double everything but Swordmasters in Part 3 (and he only needs to proc speed once to go on and do the same in Part 4). If you wanted to go really crazy, you could give him an Energy Drop too, so he has 38ATK/26AS. Incidentally, a level 20 Ike has 40ATK/26AS with a Steel Blade. So yeah...

The point is that Kyza doesn't take a massive amount of effort to salvage, and in fact if you're willing to surrender a Drop and Wing, he's actually got good stats and movement. Assuming Kyza in play, he gets more out of those stat boosters than any other individual unit.

...

not really. First off, he only has 30 atk, so 34 with the energy drop. Not very useful considering this 2HKOs mages and bishops and maybe swordmasters (but Kyza doesn't double those). That's it. Adept is only 26% and he has a gauge so can't use it as much. mid 40s in two hits, I would think. And he's level 18 -> 36 with 40% str and 35% spd growths so neither are going up particularly quickly. Then consider he isn't there in 2-E, 3-2, 3-3, 3-5 and he's 4 chapters down on speedwing contributions compared to Haar and 3 chapters down compared to Titania. 26 isn't significantly better than 25 until ~3-11 and even 24 is about as good in 3-5, 3-7, and some of 3-8. Kyza is not a good use of a speedwing. As for an energy drop? Ulki and Janaff are only a small part of 3-7 away from matching Kyza's contributions with the 3-5 drop. As for the 2-E drop, same problem as with the wing.

You have to assume that a lot of good units aren't being fielded before Kyza becomes optimal for a stat booster.

Strange thing about the current set-up of the list is that Astrid + Meg + Fiona all have free chapters in which to contribute. Kyza and Oliver have none (untrained Kyza = waste of space in part 4). Pelleas has 4-2 and 4-5, I suppose.

[nflchamp]

Strange thing about the current set-up of the list is that Astrid + Meg + Fiona all have free chapters in which to contribute. Kyza and Oliver have none (untrained Kyza = waste of space in part 4). Pelleas has 4-2 and 4-5, I suppose.

Sucking in free chapters does not necessarily net you positive.

Edited May 29, 2010 by nflchamp

[dondon151]

Yeah, but in most cases it ensures a 0 at worst.

[Anouleth]

If we're going to judge bad characters solely by 'free' chapters, then many, many more changes would be necessary to the tier list, not just in Bottom Tier.

[RNG Princess]

Well Astrid/Fiona/Meg have free chapters yes but...

Idk if it counts for efficiency Fiona's rescuing is helpful in Part 3, and she could give someone good earth support.

I personally found Meg useful for Micaiah+Wrath in 1-5, and she's ok against mages. In Part 3 her shoving and rescuing can be helpful from time to time.

Astrid is doing hit and run to help clear the path, and she is most qualified for turning the houses on fire off.

Kyza may also shove and at the start be better at fighting enemies but Meg/Fio/Astrid are doing all of what I explained without taking the spot from somebody else, and without needing a statbooster or extra items to do so.

I also want to point out that raising any of these in hard mode would be unlogical in terms of tier list, but Astrid's base paragon gives her room for other skills and would make her a little easier to raise than Kyza and canto would move her back to safety.

I also personally think Renning should go below Oliver, and have Data transfered Astrid above Renning. He isn't a great choice for endgame and has no contribution what so ever to anything but endgame, while Astrid(T) is a whole lot better now and contributing more in her availability.

Edited May 29, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Anouleth]

Fiona's not giving anyone an earth support. It's a waste of time. She's only got two chapters to form a support; 1-7 and 1-E, and she's slow and cumbersome in both chapters and we have a shortage of deployment slots to begin with. Plus, we need to protect her.

Meg is not useful for anything aside from thwacking a wall and looking for Coins in 1-4, plus the occasional shove. Which is almost worthless in my opinion.

Astrid is the best character to extinguish fires purely because she's awful at everything else. She should not even be deployed in 2-3, since her Player Phase damage is a joke and she spends most of her time downing vulneraries since everything on the map 3HKOes her. Her only real contribution is some highly pathetic chip damage in 3-9. That's all she gets for free.

Kyza can actually be salvaged, on the other hand.

Renning > Oliver can be shown... Oliver is essentially only useful for healing in 4-E, and he's a strictly inferior choice to Bastian, who you get for free and are RNG-proof. So Oliver is always a negative to the team. Whereas it's conceivable that everyone can get RNG screwed and then he's actually okay in Endgame with a Speedwing (Hammer and Wyrmslayer access, mainly, plus he 2HKOes Spirits with Brave weapons). Which is better than say, Haar or Soren or even Stefan. So while it's conceivable that Renning is a good choice for an Endgame team, Oliver is never a good choice for an Endgame team, ever, due to the existence of Micaiah, Bastian and Elincia, who are better at healing.

[RNG Princess]

I understand Oliver's argument and maybe Fiona's but I do not understand how Kyza can be salvaged while Meg, and Astrid especially with transfers cannot.

Considering by the time he joins there are 12 units out and there is Ranulf and Ike forced so you'll bring 10 along. Oscar and Titania suck for this chapter so he's competing with Mia, Ilyana, Haar, Nephenee, Brom, Gatrie, Mist, Soren, Rolf, Boyd, Shinnon, Rhys, and Lyre. All of the above except Lyre and maybe Rolf, and Ilyana are better than him. So maybe he can get in instead of Brom or Soren, but thats one chapter of use, because when Jannaf and Ulki join Titania and Oscar will be back in action 8 units out and Reyson needs to be in. Kyza is a waste of space and resources because the speedwing will fit someone else better on the longrun. IIRC he also needs to use olivi grass before being able to fight, and thats a two turn wait unless he uses the laguz stone which is better used on someone else named Reyson.

Astrid isn't competing with anyone for a spot and chip damage is helpful during her availability. When she has transfers she's even better because she is doubling and dealing better damage (2-3) and is better at surviving although that shouldn't be too much of a problem because she can easily canto her way to safety. She has no need to use many resources to be of some use and he does.

Similar case for Meg, looking for coins and shoving from time to time is helpful considering she is doing that job instead of somebody else and with no competition for a spot (for 1-5, and part 3 that is :P).

Edited May 29, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Zkirsche]

Off topic, but yYou could've just interpretted Fiona calling Micaiah "failcaiah" out of jealousy.

[_____]

Considering by the time he joins there are 12 units out and there is Ranulf and Ike forced so you'll bring 10 along. Oscar and Titania suck for this chapter so he's competing with Mia, Ilyana, Haar, Nephenee, Brom, Gatrie, Mist, Soren, Rolf, Boyd, Shinnon, Rhys, and Lyre. All of the above except Lyre and maybe Rolf, and Ilyana are better than him. So maybe he can get in instead of Brom or Soren, but thats one chapter of use, because when Jannaf and Ulki join Titania and Oscar will be back in action 8 units out and Reyson needs to be in. Kyza is a waste of space and resources because the speedwing will fit someone else better on the longrun. IIRC he also needs to use olivi grass before being able to fight, and thats a two turn wait unless he uses the laguz stone which is better used on someone else named Reyson.

Base Kyza with a Speedwing - 55 HP, 20 Defense, 10 Res

w/ A Strike - 30 MT, 144 Hit, 26 AS, 66 Avoid, 10 Crit, 14 Crit Evade

Level 12 Boyd - 48 HP, 17 Defense, 8 Res

w/ Killer Axe - 32 MT, 131 Hit, 19 AS, 52 Avoid, 40 Crit, 14 Crit Evade

w/ Hand Axe - 31 MT, 126 Hit, 19 AS, 52 Avoid, 10 Crit, 14 Crit Evade

Over-leveled Boyd, by the way.

Looks pretty similar. Kyza wins in durability handily, and his 26 AS doubles everything but Swordmasters. Considering how, without doubling, Kyza can't 2HKO some of the beefier units like Generals and Warriors reliably and how Boyd can't double anything on the map and is, in fact, doubled by the Swordmasters, it's safe to say that Boyd is relying on Crits to OHKO anything, making Kyza's offense basically equal to his. You could argue that Boyd's 1-2 range comes in handy, but he's only going to be shooting up ledges and missing almost constantly, making it almost moot. Kyza needs Grass, but there are 2 in the Bargains, and you're likely not using any other Laguz outside of Ranulf, who doesn't need 16 Olivi Grass himself, so it's really not a big deal. There's almost nothing happening on the first two turns of the left side outside of generics fighting generics and two other generics sitting there. Kyza also has 2 more move than Boyd when transformed, making it easier for him to climb the ledges and attack on the same turn and, like all Laguz, his Con and Weight go through the roof, meaning he can shove or rescue pretty much anyone. He also levels at slightly higher rate than Boyd, at least with BEXP, which is good because his growths are mediocre, and Strength is tied for his 3rd highest stat, making it a bit more likely for him to proc a Strength here than with regular EXP.

Anyway, my point is that, if Kyza is marginally better than an overleveled Boyd here, I'm pretty sure he's beating Rolf, Ilyana, Soren, Lyre, Lethe, Brom, and maybe Rhys or, if you're really stretching things, Mordecai, meaning he's really not going to be passed over with that Speedwing. It's not like Kyza's usefulness just abruptly stops at 3-4, either. It's not like 26 AS magically stop doubling when you reach 3-7, which is actually a good map for any Laguz, since they can grass up before the enemies actually get near. Rather, the only non-Swordmaster, non-Boss enemies that 26 AS doesn't double in all of Part 3 would be two random Warriors that appear in 3-E, which are probably being eaten by the generic Laguz.

Yeah, Fiona and Meg can push people and, in Fiona's case, rescue people, but Kyza can push people, rescue, tank fairly reliably, and have decent offense. I could have probably mentioned Resolve somewhere in here, but it's pointless and I'm tired and this rant is too long.

[RNG Princess]

I also forgot to mention Heather :P

Although I'm not sure what is worth more Heather finding (ettard 3-4) and stealing items or Kyza's combination of usefulness.

He does need a speedwing or he's not as spicy without it, compared to Meg/Fio/Astrid they don't need a stat boost to have a use.

Now the data shows two speedwings before his jointime, one with the DB which Ilyana could bring along and one which is gathered through the CRK's. Maybe both speedwings could go to Ike's team, but it would be better to leave one with DB and the other to Ike's team. The thing is Kyza is competing with more than enough characters for that speedwing.

If he could somehow deserve that speedwing before Titania and Haar he's only putting to good use for 1 or 2 chapters. In 3-7 he's still competing for a tight spot and this time there are fewer units out maximum of 10 - Ranulf and Ike that makes it 8 named Shinnon, Mia, Reyson, Rhys/Mist, Haar, Nephenee, and for that last two spots he's competing against Gatrie, Rhys/Mist, Boyd, Soren, Heather, etc.

He's using up a speedwing to be useful and only last useful for a short amount of time, preventing better units from using it instead. While Meg and Astrid don't require you to boost them or bench someone for them to have them do something for the team.

My main argument anyways is that transfered Astrid is more beneficial to the team than Kyza (and maybe other characters as well).

I also go for Kyza > Oliver

Edited May 30, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[nflchamp]

Yeah, but in most cases it ensures a 0 at worst.

This is not 'most cases'. I don't care what anybody else says, keeping them alive/out of battle is more costly than anything they can give in return.

EDIT: And by "them" I, of course, mean bottom tier.

Edited May 30, 2010 by nflchamp

[Narga_Rocks]

This is not 'most cases'. I don't care what anybody else says, keeping them alive/out of battle is more costly than anything they can give in return.

EDIT: And by "them" I, of course, mean bottom tier.

I actually protest this for Meg and Fiona. You can certainly deploy them in 3-6 to burn torches and in 3-13 to block ledges. It takes a lot to beat Ike in 3-13 to speed things up enough that ledge-blockers aren't helpful. Astrid in 3-9 I might give you. It's not always easy to have her help because you have to protect her. Meg can also help on turn 1 in 1-5 where you need all the offence you can get. Then in 1-6-1 it's not difficult to keep her out of the path of more than one peg (a single peg can't kill her). To me, for certain chapters, they are above 0. Not a lot, of course. Burning torches and blocking ledges isn't worth much, but there is no negative to turn that positive into a <0.

[dondon151]

This is not 'most cases'. I don't care what anybody else says, keeping them alive/out of battle is more costly than anything they can give in return.

Moving units cannot possibly be difficult. If they die, it's not worth restarting anyway.

[nflchamp]

Moving units cannot possibly be difficult. If they die, it's not worth restarting anyway.

If it's not worth restarting, then they aren't doing anything positive. And if they've died, they've probably just slowed me down. I don't see how they aren't negative even if deployment is free.

[RNG Princess]

The only way they can die is if a cat/tiger somehow kills the character walling and then other laguz reach them (3-6) or a bird reaches them in 3-13.

Meg will most likely always be walled in 1-5 anyway.

BTW is 25% critical chance a good percent? I just finished chapter 2 and I think that was Nepheene's critical chance with a killer lance.

Edited May 30, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[dondon151]

If it's not worth restarting, then they aren't doing anything positive. And if they've died, they've probably just slowed me down. I don't see how they aren't negative even if deployment is free.

So if Meg + Fiona are blocking a ledge on 3-13 and one of them somehow dies, are you implying that not only were they not facilitating a successful clear of 3-13, but that they would also serve a purpose in later chapters and are somehow hindering your progress by dying?

[_____]

What use does a unit like Fiona that can only rescue -> drop have when she can't even rescue drop someone?

[Anouleth]

Fiona can rescue one of the archers so that Leonardo can use the Ballista in his place.

[_____]

Top tier.

I don't understand Queen Elincia's argument. Even if you don't want Kyza to eat a Speedwing and be better than guys like Boyd for most of Part 3, you can still use him for shoving and rescue -> dropping. 9 move and overkill WT/Con does that. Kyza isn't killed by an angry stare (actually, his durability is pretty great), and he can 3RKO things like Warriors at base, which is more than Fiona can say. Fiona 4RKOs Archers in 1-7 and is ORKO'd by them.

Edited May 31, 2010 by Ninji

[dondon151]

Kyza doesn't have canto, which is pretty essential if you want to be good at any sort of rescue chain.

[_____]

It's certainly a boon, but with 9 move, he can probably make up for it. I'm not saying that he's great at it, but his rescuing is a lot better than Fiona, especially since the only person who actually needs a rescue-chain in Part 1 or Part 3 is Meg and that Archer.

[RNG Princess]

Top tier.

I don't understand Queen Elincia's argument. Even if you don't want Kyza to eat a Speedwing and be better than guys like Boyd for most of Part 3, you can still use him for shoving and rescue -> dropping. 9 move and overkill WT/Con does that. Kyza isn't killed by an angry stare (actually, his durability is pretty great), and he can 3RKO things like Warriors at base, which is more than Fiona can say. Fiona 4RKOs Archers in 1-7 and is ORKO'd by them.

Actually my main argument is Kyza vs Astrid B)

I was also trying to compare the contributions of Kyza, Meg, and Fiona. The main thing they have against Kyza is that they have a small team and can contribute to small things like rescuing, shoving, etc without using up someone else's spot or resources. <- I'm mainly talking about a speedwing but you say he's tough without it as well

The way I see Kyza is that he's getting in over someone else who can be gaining experience and be better than he is in the longrun. Besides they are in a weaker team who needs all the support they can get and he's not.

Also thats their utility in part 3, Fiona is useless in Part 1 and Meg is partially useful.

Edited May 31, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[nflchamp]

Actually my main argument is Kyza vs Astrid B)

I was also trying to compare the contributions of Kyza, Meg, and Fiona. The main thing they have against Kyza is that they have a small team and can contribute to small things like rescuing, shoving, etc without using up someone else's spot or resources. <- I'm mainly talking about a speedwing but you say he's tough without it as well

The way I see Kyza is that he's getting in over someone else who can be gaining experience and be better than he is in the longrun. Besides they are in a weaker team who needs all the support they can get and he's not.

Also thats their utility in part 3, Fiona is useless in Part 1 and Meg is partially useful.

No one is going to be better than him in the long run if we're playing efficiently. Not enough time.