OMG it's a tier list

[Anouleth]

And Lyre can shove just as well as Kyza can.

No, she needs to use more grass to transform and stay transformed, she can shove fewer units, she has less durability when shoving, if she gets attacked then she does less damage back. She is in every single way a worse shover than Kyza.

[Zkirsche]

Not the issue, for the trillionth time. If I have to use Oliver or Lyre, I'm going to use Oliver, because healing is a lot more useful than shoving.

Indeed, but this list doesn't work that way. This list is based on efficiency, and the efficient thing to do is to bench them both. You don't "have" to use one of them, and that's just the problem.

she doesn't hit as well as kyza can

she doesn't take hits as well as kyza does

she doesn't stay transformed as well as kyza does

Shoving does not define a character.

Doesn't matter, as I've said, she's just a shove bot.

See above.

Kyza doesn't transform as well as Lyre does.

Neitehr does blocking a ledge, but that's what put Fiona over Lyre.

I don't think shoving's worth it. At all.

I'm not saying it's worth a lot, I'm saying it's better than being benched or being a net negative.

Lyre does not have some magical item that allows her to stay transformed all the time.

Yeah, it's called untransforming when she doesn't need to be used and won't end up in hamrs way after shoving.

Yeah, and you conveniently missed the part of my post where I said it wasn't much.

That's because I edited my post whilst you were editing yours. >_>

Btw, there is again the issue of the sacrifice not producing much. If Roshe criticaled a cav and got it to 2 HP before dying, great. If Lyre just put a dent in something, then it really didn't do all that much for me.

And again, we have the issue where being benched does nothing at all.

No, she needs to use more grass to transform and stay transformed, she can shove fewer units, she has less durability when shoving, if she gets attacked then she does less damage back. She is in every single way a worse shover than Kyza.

Every single one of these points has been addressed by my arguments before in this debate. Please go back to the beginning of this debate and re-read everything. For your convenience, it starts on page 140 IIRC.

Thank you.

Edited June 5, 2010 by Kirsche

[Dat Nick]

Indeed, but this list doesn't work that way. This list is based on efficiency, and the efficient thing to do is to bench them both.

The issue here isn't is Oliver better than a Mid tier, it's is Oliver better than Lyre? And the answer is yes. It's a fair enough tibreaker.

Doesn't matter, as I've said, she's just a shove bot.

Who gives a fuck? I can have Kyza, who doesn't fail at life and isn't a shovebot, so why would I field Lyre who is for all intents and purposes inferior to Kyza?

Neitehr does blocking a ledge, but that's what put Fiona over Lyre.

Only because blocking ledges>Lyre, which really says something about her.

I'm not saying it's worth a lot, I'm saying it's better than being benched or being a net negative.

Lyre became a net negative the second she got deployed over Kyza, under your mindset.

Yeah, it's called untransforming when she doesn't need to be used and won't end up in hamrs way after shoving.

One space isn't really far enough to provide protection, when the enemy is going to think "MMM PAPER" if she's just inside their attack range.

Edited June 5, 2010 by SaltyWongIsSalty

[RNG Princess]

I think the only chapter Lyre can behave as a lesser negative unit is 3-10, 14 units out - Ike and Ranulf = 12. Name them

Mia, Nephenee, Shinnon, Brom, Gatrie, Rhys, Haar, Mist, Boyd, Mordecai, Heather, Titania, Lethe, Soren, Kyza, Ilyana, Reyson, Jannaf, Ulki, and Rolf.

6 of these are left out the worst candidates to bring in would be Lyre, Lethe, Kyza, Ilyana, Rolf and Soren (idk about Mordecai).

who gives a fuck how many chapters she's available? If you're going to consider Oliver net negative utility and won't ever be fielded, then why do I give two flying fucks about Lyre?

Availability was, still is, and always will be, a terrible excuse for picking and choosing which units get boned over by Optimal Deployment.

I was stating the facts though, Lyre has more availability than Oliver and Oliver can use staves.

The only thing he has over sages like Bastian is the rank of staff, because he can use fortify but so can Elincia, Micaiah and if you bothered to pick up Lehran, a trained Laura, Rhys, and Mist can also perform the same.

So In a same way, who cares if Oliver can heal if any other healer can do it much better? Even untrained Elincia is rivaling him she has base A staff and better speed plus canto, give her wyrmslayer(trade it with Ike) and paragon and she will be helping a lot more than Oliver can.

I just don't know how tie-breaking works to find out who the bigger negative is Lyre or Oliver.

I would say Oliver is slightly better, recruiting him gives you a free silence staff and nosferatu or killing him can give one of your characters experience.

Edited June 5, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Dat Nick]

I was stating the facts though, Lyre has more availability than Oliver

Again. Who. Cares? Being 30th on the deployment list every chapter for 40 chapters is still awful. Availability is no justification for Lyre's fail.

So In a same way, who cares if Oliver can heal if any other healer can do it much better?

Because they DON'T do it much better. Other healers don't blow at combat like Oliver does. That's the only reason he's lower.

If you have a high magic stat, and access to higher level staves, you can heal just fine. If your stats blow and you're a fighter, all you can do is dumbass shoving. Untrained Elincia>Oliver? Well, untrained Rolf>Lyre. I WISH I was joking about that.

Even untrained Elincia is rivaling him she has base A staff and better speed plus canto, give her wyrmslayer(trade it with Ike) and paragon and she will be helping a lot more than Oliver can.

Yeah? And untrained Boyd can shove, actually DAMAGE things, actually take hits, never untransform, has 1-2 range, has slayers, etc....You're not telling anybody anything they don't already know by saying Elincia>Oliver.

I just don't know how tie-breaking works to find out who the bigger negative is Lyre or Oliver.

Because "failing" at healing just works a fuck of a lot better than failing at combat.

Edited June 5, 2010 by SaltyWongIsSalty

[Fenrir]

a) he might be in harms way, attracting attention away from units that can ORKO - a negative.

or b ) a unit could have simply ORKO'ed that unit anyway.

healing probably isn't necessary anyway, units are plenty durable by this point.

lyre will never be in harms way at 7def and 11as untransformed even with wildheart shes getting doubled and without wildheart she cant shove ike or gatrie and other laguz, a huge reason kyza or mordecai are better is because im pretty sure lyre cant shove a tiger or laguz bigger than her like ranulf, and the hawks might be(anyone know for sure?)so lyre is not even the best at shoving people, she is the worst of all laguz, similar weight to boyd so if your not chomping olivi you can have him do it(if your not using him) and hes not getting his ass raped like lyre.

so lets see, lyre the worst laguz unit in the game at shoving, the worst unit in the game game overall.

astrid can do chip damage

oliver can heal

meg and fiona can be promoted and could do chip damage etc.

LYRE O MY FUCKING GOD SHE HITS DOUBLE 0s AND SUCKS BALLS AT SHOVING!!!!! NO FUCKING WAY SHOULD SHE BE LOWER THAN OTHER PEOPLE!!!!!!

Edited June 5, 2010 by King Soren

[NinjaMonkey]

meg and fiona can be promoted and could do chip damage etc.

Meg starts at level 3, and Master Seals can only be used at level 10 (at the earliest). So why the hell would anyone waste 7 levels of EXP for a unit that is going to be used to do chip damage?

Edited June 5, 2010 by NinjaMonkey

[Rewjeo]

Kirche, this isn't a maximum efficiency tier list. See, we like to assume that the units are, I dunno, BEING USED. That way, we avoid having have of the list in lolwe'reallonthebenchwhyareweevenbeingtiered? tier.

[Colonel M]

Kirche, this isn't a maximum efficiency tier list. See, we like to assume that the units are, I dunno, BEING USED. That way, we avoid having have of the list in lolwe'reallonthebenchwhyareweevenbeingtiered? tier.

Unfortunately, such is the reality of it all. Oliver costs a resource, this being a deployment slot, in order to contribute. So does Lyre, which I'm not denying either. Not on Kyza's side, but with major opportunity cost against him (consuming a Speedwing), I can make him "okay" with my other combat units. We're not playing smash-ism where we take every stat booster within the entire game, putting it on Lyre, and calling it better than Oliver. I think Oliver > Lyre should still happed primarily because I doubt USING Oliver will really destroy our turncount. If Purge remains, we can put Dragonslayer on him and chip at something, though this would be assuming Micaiah isn't touched at all and Sanaki can do this without really eating up a slot. Oliver is pretty close to Bottom Tier's standards since he acts like Karel without Chapter 23.

[Anouleth]

But on the other hand, using Lyre won't really destroy our turncount either unless we drag her through every chapter up to and including Endgame. Which I see as excessively punishing her availability, just as forcing us to drag Fiona/Meg/Astrid around would probably put them all below Oliver just because he's only holding us back for one chapter instead of half a dozen.

[_____]

If we're going to take Oliver's recruitment into account, you can probably have the enemies cleared out way before Rafiel reaches Oliver in 4-4, so actually recruiting Oliver is costing us turns. I'm almost certain we're ignoring it, but, it's worth a mention.

Edited June 6, 2010 by Ninji

[Colonel M]

If we're going to take Oliver's recruitment into account, you can probably have the enemies cleared out way before Rafiel reaches Oliver in 4-4, so actually recruiting Oliver is costing us turns. I'm almost certain we're ignoring it, but, it's worth a mention.

I'm not really tying recruitment costs as I don't play bb / GEism but it is probably possible to recruit Oliver earlier. It just doesn't yield much either since you're likely right that Oliver is likely one of the last units on the field at that point.

@Anouleth: I'm speaking under the premise of if I was forced to field Oliver that him being fielded wouldn't drastically deatroy your turncount and he could still contribute something not named Shoving. Lyre isn't being hurt for her availability; It's that she does absolutely nothing with it.

[grandjackal]

Well, she CAN do more than shoving when transformed. 12 magic with a Reaper Card is 20 might, 24 with Daemon (if you shipped the 5 over from the DB). Small amount of uses, but it's something. 11-15 damage on warriors, 6-10 to halberdiers, 9-13 vs swordmasters and snipers, 5-10 damage vs generals.

Of course it's stupid, but if we're gonna field her just for shoving and she can also do...very very minor chip, it's at least a BIT more than shoving ;;>>

Not saying this helps her in any way though, would still say Oliver's better, unless we're going by the "we only need so many units focused on combat that we might as well field Lyre to shove people because too many combatants is superfluous", of which I highly doubt is the case.

[-Cynthia-]

And even so, my argument (and the arguments of others) has been that if we're dedicating a unit to shoving, Kyza or untrained Boyd or pretty much anyone else does a betetr job because they're better at combat.

[grandjackal]

And even so, my argument (and the arguments of others) has been that if we're dedicating a unit to shoving, Kyza or untrained Boyd or pretty much anyone else does a betetr job because they're better at combat.

I think the kicker there is that with Wildheart, she and Kyza would have the same move (something over an untrained Boyd), and Lyre would still have better chip with cards despite not shoving as often due to Kyza being bigger.

...Which would still mean Kyza's better, but she would have something on an untrained Boyd.

EDIT: Oddly enough, she does similar damage with cards that Rolf would with a forge (that is, unless I'm underestimating what level hell be by chapter 3-4). Level 5 Rolf with a 13 might forge would do about 17-16 damage to warriors, 14-13 damage to halberdiers, and 16-17 damage also to snipers and swordmasters, along with 9-8 damage to geneals. Granted it's still better damage and cards don't last anywhere near as long as a single forge...

Edited June 6, 2010 by Master Tang

[Anouleth]

I think the kicker there is that with Wildheart, she and Kyza would have the same move (something over an untrained Boyd), and Lyre would still have better chip with cards despite not shoving as often due to Kyza being bigger.

...Which would still mean Kyza's better, but she would have something on an untrained Boyd.

Really? Wildheart!Lyre only has nine magic, and 47HP/17AS/10DEF to back it up. Even untrained Boyd beats that, although obviously she has the movement advantage. I don't think Lyre's as easy to protect as people seem to think. 34ATK 2HKOes her, and some enemies can double her. She can't even take Shade or something to dissuade enemies.

@Anouleth: I'm speaking under the premise of if I was forced to field Oliver that him being fielded wouldn't drastically deatroy your turncount and he could still contribute something not named Shoving. Lyre isn't being hurt for her availability; It's that she does absolutely nothing with it.

Oliver may be healing, and healing is obviously more useful than shoving, but he's also taking a more valuable deployment slot. If we're applying deployment slot costs, we should acknowledge that some slots are more highly contested than others. Lyre is probably only kicking out some untrained unit, while Oliver will kick out Nephenee or someone.

But if we're going to rate these characters based on the negative they do accrue even when used inefficiently, the question still exists of how inefficiently we use them. Do we assume that the player suspends his sanity long enough to carry Lyre through multiple chapters or do we assume he notices how inherently awful she is after one chapter?

[grandjackal]

Really? Wildheart!Lyre only has nine magic, and 47HP/17AS/10DEF to back it up. Even untrained Boyd beats that, although obviously she has the movement advantage. I don't think Lyre's as easy to protect as people seem to think. 34ATK 2HKOes her, and some enemies can double her. She can't even take Shade or something to dissuade enemies.

Its meant just for shoving really, and I did mention that Wildheart carding is not strong chip, but it's at least existent with certain cards.

I only point it out not because I think it helps, but because it's there for her.

[Colonel M]

Oliver may be healing, and healing is obviously more useful than shoving, but he's also taking a more valuable deployment slot. If we're applying deployment slot costs, we should acknowledge that some slots are more highly contested than others. Lyre is probably only kicking out some untrained unit, while Oliver will kick out Nephenee or someone.

But if we're going to rate these characters based on the negative they do accrue even when used inefficiently, the question still exists of how inefficiently we use them. Do we assume that the player suspends his sanity long enough to carry Lyre through multiple chapters or do we assume he notices how inherently awful she is after one chapter?

The general answer for Lyre is this: she is not being fielded at all because fielding her is inefficient in most, if not all ways. There are likely better alternatives to your team than Lyre; much like Oliver. I'm not arguing Lyre > Oliver, by the way. I'm more on the side of Oliver > Lyre.

Edited June 6, 2010 by Colonel M

[Rewjeo]

But if you do that, we may as well throw out everyone who's not optimal deployment at some point. Sure, that's not as big a deal on this list as others since we have many armies and some chapters where you can deploy tons of people, but we still get a bunch of people thrown into bottom because they do nothing ever. You can't just assume she isn't being used at all.

Also, I was thinking. Seeing as Meg, Fiona, and Astrid can all at least be deployed for free at some point, is it possible that Lyre could even drop into her own tier below them?

[Dat Nick]

Lyre is probably only kicking out some untrained unit

An untrained unit who's probably actually capable of damage, or taking a hit, or SOMETHING resembling use...

[dondon151]

But if you do that, we may as well throw out everyone who's not optimal deployment at some point. Sure, that's not as big a deal on this list as others since we have many armies and some chapters where you can deploy tons of people, but we still get a bunch of people thrown into bottom because they do nothing ever. You can't just assume she isn't being used at all.

You just said it yourself. The only characters who never have a period of optimal deployment, aside from Lyre, would be units joining before 4-E, due to the nature of this game. Even in like FE8, with a modestly sized cast, only has a small handful (about 5) of truly useless units.

[grandjackal]

Let's give Lyre the Spirit Dust for card chip

Joking aside, anyone ever considered giving Wildheart to any of the badass laguz?

Janaff: 57 HP, 24 Str, 27 Skl, 25 Spd, 30 Lck, 18 Def, 12 Res

Ulki: 59 HP, 21 Str, 25 Skl, 27 Spd, 25 Lck, 16 Def, 15 Res

Ranulf: 55 HP, 21 Str, 9 Mag, 24 Skl, 23 Speed, 23 Luck, 19 Def, 15 Res

I'm a bit skeptical with Ranulf since 23 AS isn't perfect, and I think Janaff loses on some ORKOs he manages. Ulki? He wasn't ORKOing without skills anyways outside of mages (which he still ORKOs with Wildheart), he still 2RKOs generally with Wildheart, and now he doesn't have to wait till turn 2-3 just to transform, giving him 2-3 player phases and 1-2 extra enemy phases, not counting times needing to grass up. He can counter, then kill something, then canto to do it again. No grass, no stones, no Reyson.

It also gives him an automatic 9 move rather than being stuck with 7 till transformation, so it boosts his mobility. It doesn't really slow down his EXP gain since he was gaining 1 EXP regardless, and his durability is not an issue since he's still decently durable, and thanks to Vigilance he's still got 99 avoid, which still reduces enemies to the 20s at most.

I think he can still equip Adept on top of this. However, I am just throwing this idea out there, mainly for Ulki, as a way to reduce his need for grassing and such as to give him instant action. I suppose I'm asking if the grass management with transforming for the higher stats is worth the exchange of instant wildheart performance out of him.

Is this just another crazy idea of mine, or does this seem actually plausible?

[Rewjeo]

You just said it yourself. The only characters who never have a period of optimal deployment, aside from Lyre, would be units joining before 4-E, due to the nature of this game. Even in like FE8, with a modestly sized cast, only has a small handful (about 5) of truly useless units.

What about Kyza? Although I didn't realize how many really do have chapters with free deployment...

[Narga_Rocks]

Just because nobody noticed or nobody cared and I was busy a page ago when it happened:

Untransformed Lyre has 6 con. This game doesn't care about the wt of the shover. You need to at worst have 2 lower con than the other unit's wt. If you think about it, it makes some sense for units like Gatrie. That armor shouldn't necessarily make you able to shove heavier stuff, but that armor should make you harder to shove. Notice this is different than, say, fe9 where wt was all that mattered for both the shove-er and the shove-ee.

6 con lets her shove what? She can't even shove Rhys.

Next up, Lyre tranforms faster than Kyza? What, are you not using grass?

15 + 8 + 8 = 31. Transform turn 3.

15 + 10 + 10 = 35. Transform turn 3.

Oh look, Lyre and Kyza transform at the same time but Lyre untransforms faster.

Then there is the problem with halfshift that (Anouleth, was it?) someone pointed out. Lyre is easily 2HKOd while halfshifted. And with enemies in 3-10 having 21 AS or better for halbs/warriors/etc (and maybe a couple paladins, though I don't remember) there are a lot of things that ORKO her (and thus go uncountered on enemy phase). Meaning Lyre can't even run around halfshifted to more easily shove people. At least she has 11 con while transformed, but that is still really sad when you consider Kyza is walking around with 12 con even before transformation. That's right, aside from move untransformed Kyza can shove better than transformed Lyre can. Ouch. Also, untransformed Kyza has 8 more hp and the same def as halfshifted Lyre. As for halfshifted Kyza? Well, he has 55 hp and 15 def and is thus taking 43mt to bring down in two hits. 9 more than it takes to bring down Lyre. And oh yeah, he has 22 con while transformed. He can shove Ulki/Janaff quite easily, Ike as well. He can even shove tier 2 Gatrie, though admittedly if you are using Gatrie at this stage he is probably promoted and I think he hits 25 in tier 3.

Anyway, Lyre is a terrible shover compared to Kyza, whether you are considering both halfshifted or both untransformed or both trying to maintain full transformation. It's incredibly sad.

For GJ, first off Ulki can no longer ORKO swordmasters, and considering this was a task he performed better even than Mia (she takes 1 to 3 % crit rates for a while, though by 3-8 she shouldn't be 3HKOd anymore) because he has 45 cev (good god), that makes me sad. Also, 29 mt will fail to 4HKO many things. Well, mainly halbs. Also him and Janaff will also be quite terrible on Generals.

Best thing you can do with that is get Ulki to level 30 (bexp), give him Tear, and with 3x strength that should still be 21 x 3 + 8 = 71 mt in one hit. 27% for that and he gets two cracks at it (aside from on swordmasters). Anyway, other bad news is he'll probably fail to 2HKO some sages and since he is at best 4HKOing the tougher things like warriors and snipers he'll not be getting Adept considering he does less killing with it than Mia and she now beats his proc rate for Adept.

71 mt will OHKO most things in part 3, at least. Generals have mid to high 20s and low 40s, so it's fine for a while. Best General in 3-11 has 43 hp and 27 def. 70 mt OHKOs. Ulki doesn't even need his full power to "tear" that guy apart.

Edited June 6, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[dondon151]

What about Kyza? Although I didn't realize how many really do have chapters with free deployment...

Kyza only competes with the GMs, Lyre, and a handful of part 2 units. He might or might not make it in, not sure.