OMG it's a tier list

[Shadow Mir]

what level do the herons get that skill that fills up laguz gauge? I remember that being helpful to save laguz gems, and I had brought Vika to endgame so it was very helpful. I'm just wondering if its possible for Reyson to get it when the hawks are around.

The herons learn Valor at level 30. However, as I see it, that isn't happening in an efficiency run without an assload of BEXP, even for Reyson.

[RNG Princess]

The herons learn Valor at level 30. However, as I see it, that isn't happening in an efficiency run without an assload of BEXP, even for Reyson.

Yep that is too much lol

[Florete]

So, was anyone actually opposed to Oliver moving to Bottom, even if it's above Astrid? And were there any other agreed changes?

[Anouleth]

No opposition to Oliver in Bottom I think, and I don't think any opposition to Oliver going just above Lyre. Just lots of argument about what order they should be in.

I haven't heard any arguments against my Ilyana (T) > Leonardo. Which is here if you want to read it:

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=10600&view=findpost&p=1048379

[Soren37]

No opposition to Oliver in Bottom I think, and I don't think any opposition to Oliver going just above Lyre. Just lots of argument about what order they should be in.

I haven't heard any arguments against my Ilyana (T) > Leonardo. Which is here if you want to read it:

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=10600&view=findpost&p=1048379

I have to agree with this. It makes sense, and the only thing I might add is that Leo is only usable as a "never-miss" character, but his other stats are too crappy to ever put him out of that.

"never-miss" due to high LCK and SKL.

[Narga_Rocks]

I'd like to see somebody take a good shot at Leo > Ilyana (T). Anybody. But if not (or if it's a bad shot) then I'll make the change.

Oliver is going down to top of bottom. Smash will be so proud of us. Oh, and are we going with Pelleas > Oliver based on 4-2 and 4-5? I mean, if there is a dragon adjacent to the boss and it has 10 AS, it's basically screwed (dragonfoe + fenrir). I'm thinking of simply leaving Pelleas where he is for now.

Oh, and now that we are accepting that we are trying to cut turns in places like 3-2, I'd like to know what kind of levels Rolf (T) may be looking at. I'd basically assumed upper mid on a leveling speed that may not be feasible. If we need to slow down to get Rolf to be "nearly as good as Shinon" like I claimed he was at times, then clearly he's not upper mid material.

Edited June 9, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[nflchamp]

Pelleas should go with him, unless you have a good 4-2 argument. He's worthless in 4-5 because one he'd have to get lucky with a dragon spawn, two he'd have to hit it (and, yes, he can miss. ~90% true <_<), and three Bastian isn't likely to miss and can have effective damage on everything. Oh, and even with dragonfoe, Pelleas needs at least one +MAG to ORKO a dragon. Most likely he'll need two, but it's possible he'll even need three. And then his durability is terrible.

[Anouleth]

Better than Oliver, though. Pelleas may have only two chapters of slim to non-existent utility, but that's still better than Oliver's zero chapters <_<

If a Cat or Tiger with 21 or more AS spawns, Bastian can't double and needs help to take it out. So Pelleas is useful in that situation. Pelleas can also weaken stuff in 4-2, even if the accuracy is admittedly shitty. Better than Astrid's awful damage in 3-9, at least, and again, better than Oliver's non-existence.

[RNG Princess]

Better than Oliver, though. Pelleas may have only two chapters of slim to non-existent utility, but that's still better than Oliver's zero chapters <_<

If a Cat or Tiger with 21 or more AS spawns, Bastian can't double and needs help to take it out. So Pelleas is useful in that situation. Pelleas can also weaken stuff in 4-2, even if the accuracy is admittedly shitty. Better than Astrid's awful damage in 3-9, at least, and again, better than Oliver's non-existence.

What about a thunder forge? That can help his crappy hit.

[Narga_Rocks]

Pelleas should go with him, unless you have a good 4-2 argument. He's worthless in 4-5 because one he'd have to get lucky with a dragon spawn, two he'd have to hit it (and, yes, he can miss. ~90% true <_<), and three Bastian isn't likely to miss and can have effective damage on everything. Oh, and even with dragonfoe, Pelleas needs at least one +MAG to ORKO a dragon. Most likely he'll need two, but it's possible he'll even need three. And then his durability is terrible.

Wha? I was able to ORKO every 10 spd dragon on the map with base Pelleas. If the HM enemy stats topic says different, remember Vykan didn't go with in-game statistics. He just calculated off growths. The game may go different.

Anyway, I suppose Bastian might be able to pull it off with meteor. 3 less mt, but he has more magic. However, I think you could prep him to take out tigers if he isn't slowed down by meteor. 24 over 20 for some of them, I think.

[Shadow Mir]

Oh, and are we going with Pelleas > Oliver based on 4-2 and 4-5? I mean, if there is a dragon adjacent to the boss and it has 10 AS, it's basically screwed (dragonfoe + fenrir). I'm thinking of simply leaving Pelleas where he is for now.

I dunno about you, Narga, but Izuka summoning a dragon isn't something I'd count on at all, to be quite honest. I know that personal experience counts for nothing, but out of all my RD playthroughs, I only saw a dragon summoned one time.

[Narga_Rocks]

I dunno about you, Narga, but Izuka summoning a dragon isn't something I'd count on at all, to be quite honest. I know that personal experience counts for nothing, but out of all my RD playthroughs, I only saw a dragon summoned one time.

Yeah, it's not likely. There is still one dragon in the swamp (this one actually is swamp) on the path to the boss. I'd rather kill it from 10 away than have to charge in. Though again, I suppose Bastian could do the same job with meteor (+dragonfoe) as pelleas does with Fenrir, and probably with better hit.

[-Cynthia-]

Don't forget Pelleas also gets +25 hit in 4-2 (+20 in 4-5) due to Tibarn's authority stars, making his hit more acceptable.

[Shadow Mir]

Don't forget Pelleas also gets +25 hit in 4-2 (+20 in 4-5) due to Tibarn's authority stars, making his hit more acceptable.

Authority stars don't count for anyone other than the leader. Ergo, Pelleas's 1 authority star is just for show.

[Fenrir]

Pelleas should go with him, unless you have a good 4-2 argument. He's worthless in 4-5 because one he'd have to get lucky with a dragon spawn, two he'd have to hit it (and, yes, he can miss. ~90% true <_<), and three Bastian isn't likely to miss and can have effective damage on everything. Oh, and even with dragonfoe, Pelleas needs at least one +MAG to ORKO a dragon. Most likely he'll need two, but it's possible he'll even need three. And then his durability is terrible.

i orko like every dragon with pelleas dragonfoe...

[Zkirsche]

Pelleas is eh... He at least has good speed for his level, though, and grows plenty fast.

Birdfoe + fenrir might be nice too, as marskmen + reavers don't need to really have it anyway, and Nolan probably went with them, I don't think birds are a threat and birdfoe probably isn't needed by anyone else.

Next up, Lyre tranforms faster than Kyza? What, are you not using grass?

No, because according to some of the comments I've seen before, needing to use grass is a bad thing.

Also, with that whole "no reading it issue", I believed I said what Kyza does is superfluous about 50 times :/. Though that was before Narga told me that it was based off of con, not wt, in which case it most definitely isn't superfluous.

It's like IS was thinking "hey, you know that 1 little thing bottom tiers can do? Let's get rid of it!" "Good idea!" <_<

Edited June 9, 2010 by Kirsche

[Anouleth]

What about a thunder forge? That can help his crappy hit.

Man, I totally forgot about thunder forges.

Don't forget Pelleas also gets +25 hit in 4-2 (+20 in 4-5) due to Tibarn's authority stars, making his hit more acceptable.

? Tibarn has four authority stars. Even with the stars, he's still looking at ~70 display hit with Verrine or Carreau or whatever. I guess a 100 hit thunder forge fixes that, though.

[RNG Princess]

Thats horrible In my past playthrough I had to fight four+ dragons on that Bastain joining stage

and idk how you people can pass 2-3 in 5 turns. I'm having a hard time on it and that speedwing.

Edited June 9, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Mekkah]

There's no real point in XFoe gimmicks with Pelleas other than sniping an Izuka-surrounding laguz, because Tibarn can one-turn the map. Even if you assume we take longer for the sake of gaining EXP, people with an enemy phase get much more EXP returns out of the skills. That one snipe on a random dragon you might not even face isn't worth a dime.

[Narga_Rocks]

There's no real point in XFoe gimmicks with Pelleas other than sniping an Izuka-surrounding laguz, because Tibarn can one-turn the map. Even if you assume we take longer for the sake of gaining EXP, people with an enemy phase get much more EXP returns out of the skills. That one snipe on a random dragon you might not even face isn't worth a dime.

I wouldn't recommend any other xfoe skill, just dragons. They are the lowest leveled enemies on the map and have a lot of mt and 1-2 range. Killing them from 10 range seems like a sweet deal. If you are gathering exp for units like Neph and whomever else, wasting the player phase of 2+ units (only one of which getting kill exp) when Pelleas/Bastian could ORKO and Neph kill a cat/tiger/bird seems odd.

Edited June 9, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Interceptor]

and idk how you people can pass 2-3 in 5 turns. I'm having a hard time on it and that speedwing.

Six turns is fine as well, sometimes five can be pretty luck-based. The trick to the Speedwing is to get the Halberdier to jump down and attack someone, and then pwn him with Geoffrey's Brave Lance. You want to use the yellow units as a screen to absorb hits and block off reinforcements. Also keep in mind that Kieran can one-shot the boss door with a Poleaxe, since axes have an effective damage bonus on doors for some reason.

[RNG Princess]

Six turns is fine as well, sometimes five can be pretty luck-based. The trick to the Speedwing is to get the Halberdier to jump down and attack someone, and then pwn him with Geoffrey's Brave Lance. You want to use the yellow units as a screen to absorb hits and block off reinforcements. Also keep in mind that Kieran can one-shot the boss door with a Poleaxe, since axes have an effective damage bonus on doors for some reason.

I put my npcs on roam

Makalov, Kieran, Danved, and Geoffrey are clearing the path to get close to the door.

Marcia is targeting to the horseslayer cav, and helping clear the path on her way.

Astrid is hanging out with npcs and eating up the scraps left behind by npcs or crks.

by turn 4 Kieran kills the door

Marcia kills the cav

Geoffrey fights the boss.

Astrid rescues a healer and Makalov/Danved drop him in a safe place.(so they can be in range)

the other Makalov/Danved is fighting an enemy close by.

Npc phase healer heals Geoffrey

other npcs are either helping in fight or healing who they can.

Enemy phase ballistae-like rocks thing are shooting at Geoffrey.

Boss fights Geo and dies.

Halberdier moves but only to block the ledge

Turn 5 and Marcia is too far from that Halberdier and everyone else has crappy hit on him.

and then turn 6 passes the halb doesn't want to move down and the other enemies cover empty spots next to him.

maybe i'm positioning wrong.

BTW if an npc healer dies will there still be two on 3-9?

Edited June 10, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[grandjackal]

The halberdier near the boss? Just got through the chapter, and yeah, he doesn't move. However, if you aren't quite prepared to basically Canto-Kill the boss, you can just have big Mak be prepared to take him with a killer edge for some chance kill...Or anyone else with a stronger killer, but you get the point.

[Narga_Rocks]

The halberdier near the boss? Just got through the chapter, and yeah, he doesn't move. However, if you aren't quite prepared to basically Canto-Kill the boss, you can just have big Mak be prepared to take him with a killer edge for some chance kill...Or anyone else with a stronger killer, but you get the point.

I don't know if you are talking about the sloppy second same unit. They are talking about the speedwing guy. He's up on the whatever it is and needs to hop down through a gap. He is actually willing to move, by the way. I've seen it.

[grandjackal]

Oh.

...Wtf? Why does he matter now? Marcia can get him, not that problematic.