OMG it's a tier list

[Colonel M]

Tiering Sothe with Transfers seems like Tiering the Other Creed Mansion picks before Moun. Under most scenarios, it would be completely inefficient to do so and you're yielding no reward whatsoever. Let's be honest here; Transfers I can understand, but with Sothe:

1) Who's going to bother training him 19 Levels in PoR in the first place? We're talking offense worse than Volke, and we make fun of Volke for his terrible offense, by the way.

2) In the end, Sothe needs to be RNG-blessed to be better than his RD counterpart. So in all honesty, there seems to be no point in wasting our time "training" Sothe in the first place. Blossom makes it cost more BEXP and CEXP to gain slightly better stats.

Seems to me that there is little to no point in tiering it unless we're tiering it for the sake of tiering every character with every transfer (or in other cases like Burger King).

[Florete]

If someone made a thread about best male hairstyle rankings, an epic duel would probably take place on the subject of his coif.

I don't think I'd be voting Sothe...Well, I might, but I generally don't find myself interested in male hairstyles.

Is someone really trying to say sothe belongs on top tier?(even with a transfer i dont think he does just my opinion though) or is this arguement about nothing, most of my brain thinks the latter, but that would be pointless so...

With a max abused transfer (meaning 39 or 40 HP, 20 Str, Skl, Spd, and Def, ~25 Lck, and 15 Res) he probably could be. No joke. With a Def support from Aran, Edward, or Jill he could reach 3HKO from 41 MT Tigers, he could get Spd through BEXP much more easily, and he'd just be plain better overall because most of his problems he hits take longer to hit him. I wouldn't be surprised to see him > Volug.

Sorry. Next time try maybe insinuating that I'm a biased, petty jerkface. That may get my attention. Anyway, it's moot, since I'm going to recuse myself from the debate.

I wasn't going to continue anyway, so I guess this works.

1) Who's going to bother training him 19 Levels in PoR in the first place? We're talking offense worse than Volke, and we make fun of Volke for his terrible offense, by the way.

PoR performance is irrelevant. Rolf is just as likely to get transferred as Titania.

Edited June 17, 2010 by Red Fox of Fire

[Narga_Rocks]

Tiering Sothe with Transfers seems like Tiering the Other Creed Mansion picks before Moun. Under most scenarios, it would be completely inefficient to do so and you're yielding no reward whatsoever. Let's be honest here; Transfers I can understand, but with Sothe:

1) Who's going to bother training him 19 Levels in PoR in the first place? We're talking offense worse than Volke, and we make fun of Volke for his terrible offense, by the way.

2) In the end, Sothe needs to be RNG-blessed to be better than his RD counterpart. So in all honesty, there seems to be no point in wasting our time "training" Sothe in the first place. Blossom makes it cost more BEXP and CEXP to gain slightly better stats.

Seems to me that there is little to no point in tiering it unless we're tiering it for the sake of tiering every character with every transfer (or in other cases like Burger King).

Remember: fixed mode. There is no abusing for stats or RNG blessing or whatever. And actually, on random he doesn't need to be "blessed" to be better than his RD bases. Blossom on random >> blossom on fixed. He just needs to hit his averages in PoR to be better than his RD bases. And considering Rolf is allowed a transfer, we clearly don't care about how much work it takes in PoR (though I never found Rolf to take all that much work to get to 20/10 on HM so it shouldn't be too painful to get higher on EM/NM).

The debate is just what to do with fixed-mode transfer sothe. We went with fixed mode for a reason in the first place, and including any random mode character now just wouldn't make sense, even though random mode PoR sothe has better stats (on average).

This is what we have to work with:

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=10600&view=findpost&p=604754

scroll down to the pink/magenta and the red. Those are the calculations I did a long time back. It took a while to find them, but the search function is decent if you go into the advanced section. Interestingly, the most painful thing is he loses 3 res. Aside from that, there isn't a big difference. With a use of pure water, he's still probably the best in 1-8 to go to the boss. Certainly better than wind edge Zihark with pure water. Iron Knife forges are just too good (especially in comparison to wind edges when sothe is already stronger and may have +2 mt from Micaiah).

I should note, though, that fixed mode gives growth points for every point of exp gained. Didn't realize it back in October, so any references to needing to fight specific enemies "when close to a level" you can read as "every single battle for 14 total levels". But hey, we don't actually care about how simple any of this actually is. I'm not willing to accept abusing the "round growth points to nearest integer" that you can pull by giving him increments of 1 or 2 in the base, though. You could do crazy things with his stats that way, but I say NO. For the purposes of transfers we are assuming that they used a "floating" variable like they should have, rather than "integer". It's not 1980. surely they weren't that tight for space that they had to use integers. Trouble is, this doesn't actually seem to help sothe at all.

oh, and check out October 2009:

That begs the question: Why would you transfer a character to be worse than normal at all?

You wouldn't, that's why it's funny. The tier list is about potential, let's rank the "potential" of a transfer Sothe with average/fixed stats.

While I see where you're coming from, I must note that even in the realm of unreasonable actions there are certain things a sane player just won't do. Using PoR resources to make a character worse in the end is akin to boss abusing a unit that already has every stat capped (and can't promote either).

I mean, I could put it on as a joke, but I don't want to have too many joke characters, especially among the real characters, and Normal Transfer Sothe would not fit in Epic or Phail tier. Unless you want a joke tier between High and Upper Mid called Hyper Mid.

[spoiler=Attempts to abuse the way fixed mode works]oh, I think I'll point out what sothe's final score is if you give him (without any bands) exp in the base alternating 1 and 2 exp at a time on fixed mode. This may look odd:

sothe starts with:

20 hp, 5 str, 1 mag, 7 skl, 11 spd, 5 lck, 4 def, 0 res.

but with growth points out of 90, it becomes:

1800 hp, 450 str, 90 mag, 630 skl, 990 spd, 450 lck, 360 def, 0 res.

include starting growth points:

1850 hp, 450 str, 90 mag, 630 skl, 1040 spd, 490 lck, 390 def, 0 res.

Now, he gets 1900 exp points from level 1 to 20.00.

By alternating between 1 and 2 exp points, he gets:

his growths are:

60% hp, 55% str, 10% mag, 70% skl, 65% spd, 55% lck, 35% def, 30% res

I go with these because he only needs 90 to get a +1. Going with his "blossom" growths would be incorrect.

for 1 exp point:

1 hp, 1 str, 0 mag, 1 skl, 1 spd, 1 lck, 0 def, 0 res

for 2 exp points:

1 hp, 1 str, 0 mag, 1 skl, 1 spd, 1 lck, 1 def, 1 res

This is because of rounding.

Every 3 exp points, he gets

2 hp, 2 str, 0 mag, 2 skl, 2 spd, 2 lck, 1 def, 1 res.

1900/3 = 633.333 times. Go with 633, he'll be level 19.99

633 or 1266 depending on 1 or 2.

3116 hp, 1716 str, 90 mag, 1896 skl, 2306 spd, 1756 lck, 1023 def, 633 res.

and divide by 90 and round down, you get:

34 hp, 19 str, 1 mag, 21 -> 20 skl, 25 -> spd, 19 lck, 11 def, 7 res.

Okay, so yeah it hurts his def and res a lot. Worst thing is bands can only improve skill, something that caps anyway. I think despite the improvement in str, he's even worse than if you don't abuse the integer-ness.

I can up his str, but the cost to his def is too extreme (it would go even lower) and the str cap is too low to balance it. I could maybe give him a def band and give him 4 exp at a time (gets a 50% growth out of that, which becomes 55.55% with blossom), but that still hurts hp and str. Not to mention, it still doesn't achieve the magic 15 def. No matter how you want to look at it, integer growth points actually doesn't help him, which is kinda sad.

With 4 exp points and a soldier band (60 x 4 = 240 and rounds down, as does 35 x 4 = 140, but add 5 to the hp/def growths and 260 rounds up as does 160), I can get him:

3 hp, 2 str, 0 mag, 3 skl, 3 spd, 2 lck, 2 def, 1 res.

475, 900, 1375 depending on 1, 2, 3.

3275 hp, 1400 str, 90 mag, 2055 skl, 2465 spd, 1440 lck, 1340 def, 475 res.

again, divide by 90, round down

36 hp, 15 str, 1 mag, 22 -> 20 skl, 27 -> 20 spd, 16 lck, 14 def, 5 res.

And this is worse than the red one in the link because that one achieved 35 hp, 17 str, 13 def, 6 res. This would be a loss of 2 str and 1 res for 1 hp and 1 def gain relative to the red, and relative to sothe (N)'s RD bases it would be a +1 hp, -3 str, +1 lck, -4 res. In the end, on fixed mode, no matter what I try, I can't get it to improve at all.

I have one that isn't so bad, actually:

33 hp, 17 str, 5 mag, 23 -> 20 skl, 24 -> 20 spd, 18 lck, 12 def, 8 res.

It's still -2 hp, -1 str, +1 mag, +3 lck, -2 def, -1 res, so it's not exactly good, but it's not terrible. 5 exp per chunk. No boosters since they don't actually change anything when giving 5 exp blocks. Well, a spd band would actually improve things if there was no spd cap, but there is one, so oh well.

Basically, he needs battles (for the extra +5s), but I highly doubt you'd be able to repeatedly fight axe knights in PoR and always get 4 exp. mag was already getting 0, so that penalty doesn't matter, and a 55 luck growth and a 50 luck growth both give 2 lck per 4 exp points anyway. Constantly fighting Axe Knights + wyvern/knight band would give 65% hp, 65% str, 5% mag, 70% skl, 65% spd, 50% lck, 40% def, 30% res. Basically, the magic number, as he now can get:

3 hp, 3 str, 0 mag, 3 skl, 3 spd, 2 lck, 2 def, 1 res growth points each time you get him 4 exp points. Add another 475 to that str from when I did 4 exp at a time with a 55% str growth to get 1875 which is actually almost 21 -> 20 instead of 15.

36 hp, 20 str, 1 mag, 20 skl, 20 spd, 16 lck, 14 def, 5 res. A loss of 4 res, which I think we can live with if it gives +1 hp and +2 str and +1 lck and no other losses. Well, maybe can live with. 5 res total is pretty annoying considering he's now not much better than the rest of our DB units. Even pure water is only 12 res now.

Now, if you think you can find a way to have sothe get 4 exp at a time 475 times from axe knights, then go ahead. I have my doubts. If anyone can come up with a band (or a chain of different bands to equip over time) + a pattern of exp point gains that actually gets sothe (T) to not be worse than sothe (N), I may actually consider it simply because I feel bad for the guy (and I think it won't work out).

Edited June 17, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Kinata]

If we're assuming that characters get the best possible transfers, shouldn't we assume Sothe is not Lv. 20?

Instead of thinking of Sothe at Lv. 1-19 as not being transfered, we should consider this Sothe as being transfered into regular Sothe. Meanwhile, Lv. 20 Sothe transfers into an inferior Sothe. Therefore, the best possible "transfer" is the Lv. 1-19 transfer, and thus Sothe (N) = Sothe (T).

[Florete]

If we're assuming that characters get the best possible transfers, shouldn't we assume Sothe is not Lv. 20?

Instead of thinking of Sothe at Lv. 1-19 as not being transfered, we should consider this Sothe as being transfered into regular Sothe. Meanwhile, Lv. 20 Sothe transfers into an inferior Sothe. Therefore, the best possible "transfer" is the Lv. 1-19 transfer, and thus Sothe (N) = Sothe (T).

Hm...You've got a good point, especially since he can still get a transferred Bond with Tormod or Astrid from any level.

[Junkhead]

I haven't bothered checking the tier list with precision before, but now that I did, I must ask: Why is Heather that low?

[Narga_Rocks]

I haven't bothered checking the tier list with precision before, but now that I did, I must ask: Why is Heather that low?

Disarm is unreliable so there isn't much for her to actually steal. I think her best moments are 3-4 (get the Ettard: it's near the end of the map so if you can land anybody there, you can probably end the map either that turn or the one after) and 3-7 (12 turns no matter what so you may as well try to disarm a physic or something while on your way to the BK, plus it's the only good way to get stuff from the 3-6 DB to the GMs). Aside from that there isn't actually all that much for her to do. I think you can pull off the 3-11 physic staff without slowing down, but I wonder if the 3-10 physic staff is attainable without costing a turn. 3-5 energy drop isn't worth all that much and pulling off the steal without wasting turns is complicated.

Many people think she's lucky to be as high as she is. I think her current position is just fine, though.

[Shadow Mir]

Disarm is unreliable so there isn't much for her to actually steal. I think her best moments are 3-4 (get the Ettard: it's near the end of the map so if you can land anybody there, you can probably end the map either that turn or the one after) and 3-7 (12 turns no matter what so you may as well try to disarm a physic or something while on your way to the BK, plus it's the only good way to get stuff from the 3-6 DB to the GMs). Aside from that there isn't actually all that much for her to do. I think you can pull off the 3-11 physic staff without slowing down, but I wonder if the 3-10 physic staff is attainable without costing a turn. 3-5 energy drop isn't worth all that much and pulling off the steal without wasting turns is complicated.

Many people think she's lucky to be as high as she is. I think her current position is just fine, though.

WRT the 3-7 physic staves: Doesn't Bowgun!Shinon one-round the bishops with them?

[Anouleth]

How about the 2-E Energy Drop and the 2-2 Secret Book? I suppose they probably slow you down as well, but it's possible to get it in a 5-turn completion (I just played 2-E, and would have pulled it off except that Haar missed Ludveck with 75%. Stupid Haar! Although apparently I missed the Energy Drop anyway, so maybe it's for the best.)

[Junkhead]

I thought she should at least go to upper-middle tier list. I don't see her any worse than Rolf, a character who despite having good Atk, fails to double enemies that aren't mages and even fail to see a Player Phase if you exclude Crossbows, who will just lower his offense and make it worse than Heather with a Steel Knife, who at least gets to double everything with the exception of some SMs.

I see Heather have her moments throughout her Part 2 avability. Like in 2-1, having her get to the villages is actually of some use when Nephenee fails to 1RKO Brigands and one of the Fighters to the South-West. Her concrete durability is sure mediocre, probably worse, but when at high or even average byorhythm, her Avo turns out very reliable.

She is of better use than Rolf.

[Narga_Rocks]

I thought she should at least go to upper-middle tier list. I don't see her any worse than Rolf, a character who despite having good Atk, fails to double enemies that aren't mages and even fail to see a Player Phase if you exclude Crossbows, who will just lower his offense and make it worse than Heather with a Steel Knife, who at least gets to double everything with the exception of some SMs.

I see Heather have her moments throughout her Part 2 avability. Like in 2-1, having her get to the villages is actually of some use when Nephenee fails to 1RKO Brigands and one of the Fighters to the South-West. Her concrete durability is sure mediocre, probably worse, but when at high or even average byorhythm, her Avo turns out very reliable.

She is of better use than Rolf.

Pay attention. That's Rolf (T). He has 19 str and 21 spd to start, low base level and a 45% growth. It doesn't take very long to get him going. Rolf (N), the guy with 17 str and 19 spd to start, is in lower mid tier. Heather is in mid tier. Heather is way way higher than him on this list.

Also, her avo isn't reliable unless it's on best, and even then it's iffy. There's a reason most of us pair Mia with Ike for the list. Mia has similar avo to Heather, but we don't call that reliable. Personally, I only found Heather's avo reliable on Easy mode, and only if I timed it so she went into battle only when at neutral or above. On HM her avo is kinda useless (2HKOd at 30 to 40 % listed is rather sad).

Anyway, as for shinon killing bishops with crossbows, I have to ask: Relevance? If you can't do it with shinon, then use someone else, duh. Bronze sword Mia, Bronze sword flourish Ike. Those are your best bets due to high skill.

[Shadow Mir]

How about the 2-E Energy Drop and the 2-2 Secret Book? I suppose they probably slow you down as well, but it's possible to get it in a 5-turn completion (I just played 2-E, and would have pulled it off except that Haar missed Ludveck with 75%. Stupid Haar! Although apparently I missed the Energy Drop anyway, so maybe it's for the best.)

I thought the Energy Drop in 2-E is in the hands of an Axe Armor? It's the Dracoshield that must be stolen - defeating the Axe Armor with the Energy Drop makes it yours.

Edited June 22, 2010 by Ein Lanford

[Junkhead]

Pay attention. That's Rolf (T). He has 19 str and 21 spd to start, low base level and a 45% growth. It doesn't take very long to get him going. Rolf (N), the guy with 17 str and 19 spd to start, is in lower mid tier. Heather is in mid tier. Heather is way way higher than him on this list.

I know. It was that Rolf who I was talking about, the N/T Rolf fails to double anything. This Rolf, the transfered one, still fails to double, there are hardly any 17 AS, there are barely any Generals with that, and even if he could double them, he's tinking them. No damage.

Now that I am in Part 3 of HM, I can actually judge performance. The only way Rolf is turninig out reliable is if he is fed kills alot, the only thing growing insanely is his HP and Str, his other stats are pretty average in comparison to others. The only good use you got for him is either finishing of kills or potshotting enemies so weak characters can finish them off. Basically, he is only a filler when you already have an overleveled character, Shinon, who should easily turn out to be your main bow user. With Rolf, you only get a Shinon with more Str, but he is failing on other stats until later levels.

Heather actually has some utility, there is her Part 2 avaibility, those chapters you mentioned and I should inlclude 3-3, which you might want units with high Mov to burn the supplies, Heather is perfect on that, because while you are fielding mounted units, you might as well take her so mounted units like Oscar get to help on combat more often, to make things faster.

Also, her avo isn't reliable unless it's on best, and even then it's iffy. There's a reason most of us pair Mia with Ike for the list. Mia has similar avo to Heather, but we don't call that reliable. Personally, I only found Heather's avo reliable on Easy mode, and only if I timed it so she went into battle only when at neutral or above. On HM her avo is kinda useless (2HKOd at 30 to 40 % listed is rather sad).

That's actually quite good, that is reliable, I mean, it's not like your putting her up against enemies, she can avoid them pretty well when she has Pass available for her. So my only complaint is on why she's lower than Rolf and at least not in Upper-Middle, despite having crappy combat, she does afford actual utility over potshots that help grow an undeeded filler.

Also, I think an Energy Drop would serve her pretty well, I don't see anyone else aside Mia wanting it, unless you give her a max Mt/Crit steel forge and make the drop unnecesary.

[RNG Princess]

Heather in 2-E can team up with Callil, and she makes it possible to get the dracoshield. I never data transfered Rolf but what I remember on my last playthrough was having him and Oscar team up. I'd agree that Heather > Rolf(T) for free Gold but I can't judge him really.

Edited June 22, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Shadow Mir]

I know. It was that Rolf who I was talking about, the N/T Rolf fails to double anything. This Rolf, the transfered one, still fails to double, there are hardly any 17 AS, there are barely any Generals with that, and even if he could double them, he's tinking them. No damage.

Now that I am in Part 3 of HM, I can actually judge performance. The only way Rolf is turninig out reliable is if he is fed kills alot, the only thing growing insanely is his HP and Str, his other stats are pretty average in comparison to others. The only good use you got for him is either finishing of kills or potshotting enemies so weak characters can finish them off. Basically, he is only a filler when you already have an overleveled character, Shinon, who should easily turn out to be your main bow user. With Rolf, you only get a Shinon with more Str, but he is failing on other stats until later levels.

Heather actually has some utility, there is her Part 2 avaibility, those chapters you mentioned and I should inlclude 3-3, which you might want units with high Mov to burn the supplies, Heather is perfect on that, because while you are fielding mounted units, you might as well take her so mounted units like Oscar get to help on combat more often, to make things faster.

That's actually quite good, that is reliable, I mean, it's not like your putting her up against enemies, she can avoid them pretty well when she has Pass available for her. So my only complaint is on why she's lower than Rolf and at least not in Upper-Middle, despite having crappy combat, she does afford actual utility over potshots that help grow an undeeded filler.

Also, I think an Energy Drop would serve her pretty well, I don't see anyone else aside Mia wanting it, unless you give her a max Mt/Crit steel forge and make the drop unnecesary.

29 Atk with a Steel Bow is NOT tinking Generals. Next time, get some numbers.

Again, you didn't bother pulling up any stats. Without them you don't have much of a case.

...What are you talking about???

As for Heather's utility, the actual value is rather questionable, really. There just isn't much of value that she can find, Disarm is unreliable, and with enemies using steel blades/greatlances/poleaxes, even if they got disarmed, she most likely isn't powerful enough to steal them.

An Energy Drop? Ulki says hi.

[nflchamp]

Rolf(T) probably stands to move down more than Heather up. He was moved because of leveling speed allowing him to be great for a while. Whether or not he has the time to actually level is in question again. No real arguments made about it though.

[Renall]

WRT the 3-7 physic staves: Doesn't Bowgun!Shinon one-round the bishops with them?

If you're using a Disarmer you probably want them to be using Flourish. Bowgun Shinon or Bronze Sword Mia using Flourish is rarely going to one-round anything.

[Narga_Rocks]

Rolf(T) probably stands to move down more than Heather up. He was moved because of leveling speed allowing him to be great for a while. Whether or not he has the time to actually level is in question again. No real arguments made about it though.

His position hinges on potential leveling speed. It's not hard to get him two levels in 3-P and 3-1, though. At least, I don't see why it would be. 22 spd is decent for 3-2 in particular. 3-3 will again be a problem due to 20 spd halbs, but oh well. Don't forget, 15 mt forges means 34 mt at base with a 75% growth and the biggest exp gains on the team. Even Generals will soon be 2 rounded anyway. That's about all anyone else is doing. It really depends on what levels are plausible for 3-8. 3-4 doesn't matter too much, 3-3 is a problem, 3-5 has lots of paladins to shoot. 3-7 has mainly <= 20 spd enemies. He should probably be able to get ~7 levels in 6 chapters. Then again, maybe not. I don't think you could really move him until someone determines just how quickly he can actually gain levels while you are trying to go quickly.

[Shadow Mir]

If you're using a Disarmer you probably want them to be using Flourish. Bowgun Shinon or Bronze Sword Mia using Flourish is rarely going to one-round anything.

I really don't know what to say aout Flourish being brought up, because I never bother with it. Either way, there's the issue of biorhythm to consider. I know there's Bliss, but...

Edited June 22, 2010 by Ein Lanford

[Renall]

I really don't know what to say aout Flourish being brought up, because I never bother with it. Either way, there's the issue of biorhythm to consider. I know there's Bliss, but...

I'm not really defending Disarming as a strategy in a turncount-sensitive playthrough, but if you are planning to Disarm it behooves you to use Flourish on your disarmer for precisely the reason that Physic-wielding Bishops tend to get turned to chunky salsa by Mia even when she's slumming it. With the Bowgun, it just flat-out makes Shinon tink most things.

Even if you assumed a disarm every turn, and that Heather was stealing something every turn, she can only steal so many things before there aren't any more turns for her to do anything. And that assumes she's not moving, she doesn't have other things to steal or find, that it's safe, that Disarm doesn't fail to proc, etc.

[Narga_Rocks]

I'm not really defending Disarming as a strategy in a turncount-sensitive playthrough, but if you are planning to Disarm it behooves you to use Flourish on your disarmer for precisely the reason that Physic-wielding Bishops tend to get turned to chunky salsa by Mia even when she's slumming it. With the Bowgun, it just flat-out makes Shinon tink most things.

Even if you assumed a disarm every turn, and that Heather was stealing something every turn, she can only steal so many things before there aren't any more turns for her to do anything. And that assumes she's not moving, she doesn't have other things to steal or find, that it's safe, that Disarm doesn't fail to proc, etc.

Which is why you'll be lucky to get even one item per map (aside from 3-7). Frankly, you may be getting 1 item every 2 or 3 maps from disarm (again, ignoring 3-7). But 3-7 is pretty easy to try to get stuff. Even a languid pace can achieve the only meaningful action you can make on that map and nothing you do will make it end quicker than 12 (13 according to the game) turns. Nothing.

[Fenrir]

29 Atk with a Steel Bow is NOT tinking Generals. Next time, get some numbers.

Again, you didn't bother pulling up any stats. Without them you don't have much of a case.

...What are you talking about???

As for Heather's utility, the actual value is rather questionable, really. There just isn't much of value that she can find, Disarm is unreliable, and with enemies using steel blades/greatlances/poleaxes, even if they got disarmed, she most likely isn't powerful enough to steal them.

An Energy Drop? Ulki says hi.

29 attack is a single 6, which is not very much it's 5-6 damage on 23-24 def generals, and on the HM enemy stats, two of the three generals have 18 AS so rolf isn't doubling, i would classify 6 damage as bad.

because there is no energy drop heather gets for ulki on 3-5 is there. that's a dumb statement, without heather you have ulki getting energy drop but with her she can get one and have improved combat.

So if the arguement is uki I'd give it to heather and ulki still gets one.

[Shadow Mir]

29 attack is a single 6, which is not very much it's 5-6 damage on 23-24 def generals, and on the HM enemy stats, two of the three generals have 18 AS so rolf isn't doubling, i would classify 6 damage as bad.

because there is no energy drop heather gets for ulki on 3-5 is there. that's a dumb statement, without heather you have ulki getting energy drop but with her she can get one and have improved combat.

So if the arguement is uki I'd give it to heather and ulki still gets one.

At any rate, 6 damage != no damage.

Bold: Soul made the mistake of assuming Heather has no competition for the Energy Drop. I countered by bringing up Ulki.

[Interceptor]

I hate to nitpick -- by which I mean that I revel in it, and hereby nominate myself as the chief Nomenclature Nanny -- but there is a difference between "tink" (which refers to the sound made when you deal no damage) and doing crappy damage (which is what Rolf does to everything with DEF). It's important to draw a distinction between these two things, one of them is technically useful.

[Junkhead]

At any rate, 6 damage != no damage.

Bold: Soul made the mistake of assuming Heather has no competition for the Energy Drop. I countered by bringing up Ulki.

What's the damn difference when it's crappy damage? I know, it's "He at least damages", whatever, point is, it's very unreliable, it's potshotting, he is doing about 9-10 Dmg to Halberdiers, again, it's unreliable. I interpreted that as if he made crappy damage, which is true. He has no actual better utility, and raising him isn't really worth it when you already have Shinon, who joins with 12 levels of advantage and has much better offense, so what's the point? He's not even good at weakening enemies.

Heather does have crappy combat and concrete durability, but it is much better than being an unnecesary filler that fails to see Enemy Phases at an actual decent rate.

As for the Energy Drop to Ulki arguement: He doesn't need it, he has excellent offense until Part 4, and even by then, his offense is actually good, it may have him fail to 1RKO enemies like Warrior and Generals, but he actually gets to double SMs, something not everyone is doing unless they're 20/1 TBs or a 20/2 Nephenee, I even doubt the latter. With the constant doubling he can build up his strike, it's not garanteed to go at a decent speed, but once he does reach an S rank, he doesn't even need the Drop. He can as well fix his Atk problems by supports. So yeah, why would you go wasting it on someone who's already 1RKO'ing for a long time over someone who actually has avaibility and needs it? Not to mention Heather can support Nephenee, which is actually viable.