OMG it's a tier list

[Shadow Mir]

Has anyone taken into account that heather steals an energy drop and draco shield, either a lot of money or adds to people's weak spots, and who has a weakness of def and str? well heather could fall under that category and these items make her or her team better, rolf helps with the mighty 5-6 damage an energy drops adds 4 damage to heather or mia's total attack(2 attacks with 2 higher might) so shouldn't heather get some credit for this?(not to mention it can help janaff, ulki, and ranulf ORKO more enemies. I fail to see where rolf is helpful anywhere past 3-1 and i see heather stealing all kinds of stuff

Also, Queen Elincia said she steals vulneries, if an enemy has been hit down to like 10hp and you have rolf OR heather out there rolf hit his 9 or w/e heather can hit like double 3s yes but if he has a vulnery she can steal it and make it easier kill for someone else on the next turn. another thing it does, while one is only worth 400 gold if you steal a couple and a jav or something she starts actually making you money for your forges. heather is an interesting character with nice utility, rolf gets his mossy head ripped off and can't do anything about it on enemy phase.

EDIT: what about 4-3? you have sothe but with heather you can get all of the treasure much faster, which leads to better efficiency.

I see the Heather Defense Force^TM is as desperate as ever. The problem with Heather is that there's not much of note for her to nab. If I've said it once, I've said it a million times. And a Javelin? That's worth even less than a Vulnerary. In other words, she needs to bring in a lot of those before she can get any real credit, and in a turncount-sensitive playthrough, that's a real stretch.

[RNG Princess]

And only the Ettard and Rescue staff are worth mentioning, because coins go under the category of "crap that's so common they might as well grow on trees" and Heather is not in 3-9.

Ooops I meant energy drop

and I forgot dracoshield thanks King Soren for mentioning it :).

I don't see why coins, javelins and vulenaries shouldn't be mentioned while Rolf's chipping should. Stolen items could change things drastically, I can see why the coin is iffy but why the vulenary and javelin?

and the team having higher defense is always positive or you can just sell the dracoshield.

Edited June 22, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[dondon151]

Keep in mind that you can't forge a stolen Javelin.

[RNG Princess]

Keep in mind that you can't forge a stolen Javelin.

You can sell them although they aren't worth too much its still gold.

[Shadow Mir]

Ooops I meant energy drop

and I forgot dracoshield thanks King Soren for mentioning it :).

I don't see why both coins and vulenaries shouldn't be mentioned when they could change things drastically, I can see why the coin is iffy but why the vulenary?

and the team having higher defense is always positive or you can just sell the dracoshield.

As for the vulnerary bit, there's the fact that there aren't very many enemies toting vulneraries to steal.

[RNG Princess]

As for the vulnerary bit, there's the fact that there aren't very many enemies toting vulneraries to steal.

I'll take note how many of them carry vulenaries or stealable items during part 3.

[Junkhead]

I see the Heather Defense Force^TM is as desperate as ever. The problem with Heather is that there's not much of note for her to nab. If I've said it once, I've said it a million times. And a Javelin? That's worth even less than a Vulnerary. In other words, she needs to bring in a lot of those before she can get any real credit, and in a turncount-sensitive playthrough, that's a real stretch.

And like you never bothered to get this in your head: Rolf is pretty bad when he is missing alot in Enemy and even Player Phase, his offense only turns out reliable at later levels, something that isn't happening until later chapters, which he would still be doing having mediocre offense as you progress through the chapters.

Thieving utility > Chip damage. Gosh, is it that hard to understand?

Edited June 22, 2010 by Soul

[dondon151]

You can sell them although they aren't worth too much its still gold.

The cash amount of weapons and items that Heather steals is probably worth less than the cash amount of weapons, items, and skills that Ilyana transfers to the GMs.

[Florete]

Wow this topic.

As for the Energy Drop to Ulki arguement: He doesn't need it,

What the hell is this? I know nflchamp already proved it wrong that Ulki constantly ORKOs, but saying he shouldn't get it just because "he doesn't need it" is completely retarded. It's efficient to do so, so we give it to him (at least before Heather).

Heather's offense just turns out fixable through doubling.

LOL. Doubling will not save Heather. Have you forgotten that, Mist aside, Heather has the lowest Str and the weakest weapons on the team (until Lyre joins)?

The fact I added Shinon was because it's inefficient to be training a unit who starts out underleveled, fails to see Enemy Phases (Something I get tired of bringing up), really, Exp gain on HM isn't as abundant as it used to be in NM, so you might as well be using it on characters who will actually repay you. (i.e: Mia, Gatrie, Oscar, Ike)

Once again, this argument is bullshit, at least when you're trying to argue for Heather of all units. Funny thing is, Rolf will repay you. Heather won't.

Rolf shouldn't be promoting until late Part 3 or early Part 4 by going effeciently, and by then, his damage is unreliable. So why would you even be training him in the first place? He's only of some use when it comes to 3-1 weakening on some 3-1 enemies. That's about it, that shouldn't even be considered utility when it isn't needed. You could do the same with Titania and get high-Def enemies to low HP, so characters like Mia get kills.

Not many promote before late part 3 in HM. If Rolf does, he's looking good. 20/1 Rolf (T) has 29 Str (Shinon does not reach that until 20/9) and 28 Spd (same as Shinon) as well as easily being able to have boosted stats elsewhere due to BEXP from when Str, Spd, and eventually HP cap. Unreliable damage? Bullshit. Pack him with a Silencer for 45 atk. Put him in 4-1:

3x Halb lvl 7 (Stl Lance):
44 HP, 33 Atk, 24 AS, 147 Hit, 67 Avo, 21.5 Def, 18 Res, 17 Crit, 19 Ddg
1x Halb lvl 8 (Stl Lance):
45 HP, 34 Atk, 24 AS, 150 Hit, 68 Avo, 22 Def, 18 Res, 17 Crit, 20 Ddg
1x Halb lvl 8 (Stl Greatlance):
45 HP, 38 Atk, 24 AS, 140 Hit, 68 Avo, 22 Def, 18 Res, 17 Crit, 20 Ddg

ORKOd all around.

1x Warrior lvl 6 (Crossbow):
47 HP, 28 Atk, 23.5 AS, 167 Hit, 65-67 Avo, 18.5 Def, 12 Res, 12 Crit, 19 Ddg
1x Warrior lvl 7 (Stl Axe):
48.5 HP, 37 Atk, 24 AS, 142.5-144.5 Hit, 67.5 Avo, 19 Def, 12 Res, 12 Crit, 19.5 Ddg
3x Warrior lvl 8 (Stl Axe):
50 HP, 38 Atk, 25 AS, 145 Hit, 70 Avo, 20 Def, 13 Res, 12 Crit, 20 Ddg
1x Warrior lvl 8 (Stl Poleaxe):
50 HP, 39 Atk, 25 AS, 130 Hit, 70 Avo, 20 Def, 13 Res, 12 Crit, 20 Ddg
1x Warrior lvl 8 (Killer Axe)
50 HP, 37 Atk, 25 AS, 145 Hit, 70 Avo, 20 Def, 13 Res, 42 Crit, 20 Ddg

When he doubles he kills, and he needs one more Spd to double all of them.

No one can ORKO Generals but Rolf sure hurts them, and he also has as much as 15% Deadeye, 27.75% doubling. I think you get the picture.

I know, I can agree myself how silly and favoristic it sounds. It's just an actualy way of making her offense competent to Rolf's, as she actually gets to double. I just consider her thieving utility an up while having similiar combat with the inclusion of a drop.

Again, doubling will not save Heather. Doubling will save Rolf, seeing as 75% Str growth is a shitton better than 25%.

"Grossly effecient" seems pretty heavy, just to think you're even letting Rolf get actual kills. And not to mention lack of Enemy Phase. Like I said, you might as well distribute Exp well among characters who will actually pay off in the end without the requirement of favoritism, and Rolf does need favoritism to reach 20/20 by late Part 3 or Part 4, but by then, his offense will still suck, and he is again, stuck to chip damage utility. Heather getting to steal some staves saves you gold at least. Rolf doesn't bring anything new to the table.

This is why you should actually try to prove what you've said. You grossly overestimate what it takes to make Rolf (T) a good unit.

Somebody should really give a better reason on why constant, unnecesary chip damage > Gold effeciency utility.

Your argument relies on Rolf being "unnecessary." An argument like that almost never works. Heather is definitely not necessary. Haar is not necessary. Reyson is not necessary. Volug is not necessary. Why are they not dropping?

[Narga_Rocks]

well thats interesting :3

My tactics usually involve Ike with bronze sword and flourish against priests carrying physic staves or anyone with shiny weapons. Thats too unefficient though isn't it?

It's only inefficient if it causes you to lose a turn. Which is bound to happen in just about every chapter if you hang around disarming things. In 3-7, however, disarm away.

And Rolf isn't? He needs to be fed kills for quite a while, and you're actually needing to reduce enemies to one digit HP until his Str grows. Rolf (T) needs at least five levels before getting to double 3-2 Generals, and assuming he's getting that much levels in one or two chapters is favoritism.

What numbers are you looking at, soul? statements like these are why I think you can't get your head wrapped around the difference between Rolf (N) and Rolf (T). Generals in 3-2 have 16 to 18 spd. Rolf (T) starts with 21 spd. He needs 0 levels to double 5 of the starting Generals on the map and generally 2 levels to double the remaining 3 Generals. Check the Enemy stats topic before saying things that prove you have no clue what you are talking about.

So again, how is he better when the only use he has is chip damage when it isn't even necesary to make things faster? He's irrelevant to effeciency, Heather at least provides some thieving throughout Part 3 & 4. Some, not much saying, but it is actually of some use, it isn't slowing you down with her high Mov, she just snatches an item and let another character have the kill. Easy as that.

Chip damage? He caps spd by level 12. 26 spd doubles everything in part 3 except sword masters and a couple of Warriors he may never meet in 3-E. He caps str by level 10 or 11. A 15 mt steel bow forge gives him 42 mt without any supports. All he needs is a piddling 11 levels and he's ORKOing everything but swordmasters and Generals and wyverns (along with 2 halbs in 3-E and 2 warriors. The halbs end up at 2 or 3 HP remaining). I don't think you are actually checking any numbers.

Also, level 3 Rolf in 3-2 with a steel bow forge has either 35 or 36 mt and doubles Generals. This, by the way, is more damage than Mia. 37 to 39 hp and 22 to 24 def. That's anywhere from 22 to 28 damage, leaving them with anywhere from 17 to 9 hp remaining. This is OHKO range for soren/Rhys. Well, most of them are OHKO range. If you call that mere "chip", then the only characters doing any good against Generals are Ike and wing!Titania and wing!Haar. Even Gatrie may struggle to get to 22 spd.

Somebody should really give a better reason on why constant, unnecesary chip damage > Gold effeciency utility.

All chip damage is necessary. It allows Rolf to not suck while he's getting levels to be good. He ORKOs most of 3-E, for example. Also, depending on speed of leveling is ORKOing a hell of a lot more enemies than you are giving him credit for. Anyway, you have tons of units that aren't ORKOing early on. Rolf finishes the kill or he starts off the enemy so someone else can finish the kill. The GMs have a great need for sweepers and that means Rolf does have a job. If soren or Rhys could become great after the same number of kills as Rolf needs (they have spd bases much lower than Rolf (T) and start at a higher level and have smaller spd growths so they need tons more kills) then yes, I'd say that their chip saves them from sucking, too. Rolf actually becomes something good. They don't.

Has anyone taken into account that heather steals an energy drop and draco shield, either a lot of money or adds to people's weak spots, and who has a weakness of def and str? well heather could fall under that category and these items make her or her team better, rolf helps with the mighty 5-6 damage an energy drops adds 4 damage to heather or mia's total attack(2 attacks with 2 higher might) so shouldn't heather get some credit for this?(not to mention it can help janaff, ulki, and ranulf ORKO more enemies. I fail to see where rolf is helpful anywhere past 3-1 and i see heather stealing all kinds of stuff

You probably fail to give Rolf a forge and the actual transfer, then. Did anyone even notice that if Rolf gets a forge (why not?) and even +1 str from levels that he is ORKOing 3 of 9 Paladins in 3-2? Hardly "chip", I'd say. Wow, who knew that Paladins had only 5 or 6 hp? I mean, if Rolf is killing them, and he is, and Rolf is doing only the 5 or 6 damage you seem to think he's doing (hint: you are so wrong you should feel humiliated) then that means that the Paladins must have only 5 or 6 hp.

Check the hard mode stats and calculate Rolf's averages if he gets +2 str and +2 spd from a transfer before making yourself look bad. Even base Rolf is killing 2 of them. And if you actually do get him 2 levels between 3-P and 3-1 (which if you are using him seriously, he should be getting them) then Rolf has a good shot at 21 str and 22 spd. His average is 20.5 str and 21.9 spd. Even if he doesn't get the spd, the 21 str is a 56.25% chance in 2 levels. For reference, a 35% spd growth has a 57.75% chance of proc'ing in 2 levels. 21 str means 36 mt with a forge which means 7 of 9 paladins die. Oh, and by the way, shinon has 21 str at base (Transfer units exist in a void so Rolf(T) doesn't care what shinon (T) might have for str). shinon also has a base level of 13 and only a 40% str growth. Meaning he's probably getting only 1 level in 3-P and 3-1 combined, and only has a 40% chance of actually having 22 str.

Also, Queen Elincia said she steals vulneries, if an enemy has been hit down to like 10hp and you have rolf OR heather out there rolf hit his 9 or w/e heather can hit like double 3s yes but if he has a vulnery she can steal it and make it easier kill for someone else on the next turn. another thing it does, while one is only worth 400 gold if you steal a couple and a jav or something she starts actually making you money for your forges. heather is an interesting character with nice utility, rolf gets his mossy head ripped off and can't do anything about it on enemy phase.

Um, why is Rolf getting attacked on enemy phase? seriously, if you can't protect Rolf then you can't protect shinon. Now, shinon has durability, but he's also a terrible unit for efficiency given we want stuff dying on enemy phase. shinon down to mid, please, if you think you can't prevent Rolf from getting attacked on enemy phase.

EDIT: what about 4-3? you have sothe but with heather you can get all of the treasure much faster, which leads to better efficiency.

4-4. How quickly are you getting all the treasure without Heather?

Oh, and Rolf(T) can promote at level 12 if you don't care about his other stats. Level 12 gets him capped str and capped spd. Thanks to silencer and forges and double bow, we don't actually have to care about his skl/lck combo because he won't miss anyway. 12/1 Rolf is already giving you 29 str and 28 spd. When Titania promotes she's only giving you 29 str and 27 spd (27 spd requiring that speedwing we like giving her). If Rolf isn't killing stuff, I ask you what you think Titania is doing to enemies.

[Junkhead]

What the hell is this? I know nflchamp already proved it wrong that Ulki constantly ORKOs, but saying he shouldn't get it just because "he doesn't need it" is completely retarded. It's efficient to do so, so we give it to him (at least before Heather).

Exactly what I said, he doesn't need it. He can do perfectly fine by hitting an S rank. Not that it's happening soon. But did you see what I said? By the time Ulki and Janaff appear, your team is perfectly at range to attack, so it's not like you're doing it much faster with Ulki being able to 1RKO, you're hardly missing any turns.

Once again, this argument is bullshit, at least when you're trying to argue for Heather of all units. Funny thing is, Rolf will repay you. Heather won't.

Apparently, I can't bring up Shinon because he is irrelevant when arguing Heather vs. Rolf. But, I actually have a good reason to do that. The first thing I noticed when going through HM, is that getting Exp isn't as easy as it used to be on NM, and with that, I don't judge Rolf as effecient, he is only a filler for Shinon, that's about it. Heather at least manages to be more useful than Rolf is in his early stages. There's just no point in fielding him after a while, you must limit your team's size to make leveling up easier. He's only 1RKO'ing Sages, his offense is pretty crappy against everything else.

My main point to all of this was: Heather is better because she has actual utility whether Rolf needs to be trained only to become a filler Shinon. I might just be overrating Gold effeciency here, but I just asked to get her to Upper Middle, I don't mind if it's below Rolf.

What numbers are you looking at, soul? statements like these are why I think you can't get your head wrapped around the difference between Rolf (N) and Rolf (T). Generals in 3-2 have 16 to 18 spd. Rolf (T) starts with 21 spd. He needs 0 levels to double 5 of the starting Generals on the map and generally 2 levels to double the remaining 3 Generals. Check the Enemy stats topic before saying things that prove you have no clue what you are talking about.

The very same ones I got during said chapter in HM while playing. There were only two Generals bearing 17 AS, the rest beared 18.

12/1 Rolf is already giving you 29 str and 28 spd

He caps Spd at 13 actually, but that's enough proof for his offense anyway. I won't nor can't argue anymore.

Edited June 22, 2010 by Soul

[Shadow Mir]

Exactly what I said, he doesn't need it. He can do perfectly fine by hitting an S rank. Not that it's happening soon. But did you see what I said? By the time Ulki and Janaff appear, your team is perfectly at range to attack, so it's not like you're doing it much faster with Ulki being able to 1RKO, you're hardly missing any turns.

Apparently, I can't bring up Shinon because he is irrelevant when arguing Heather vs. Rolf. But, I actually have a good reason to do that. The first thing I noticed when going through HM, is that getting Exp isn't as easy as it used to be on NM, and with that, I don't judge Rolf as effecient, he is only a filler for Shinon, that's about it. Heather at least manages to be more useful than Rolf is in his early stages. There's just no point in fielding him after a while, you must limit your team's size to make leveling up easier. He's only 1RKO'ing Sages, his offense is pretty crappy against everything else.

My main point to all of this was: Heather is better because she has actual utility whether Rolf needs to be trained only to become a filler Shinon. I might just be overrating Gold effeciency here, but I just asked to get her to Upper Middle, I don't mind if it's below Rolf.

The very same ones I got during said chapter in HM while playing. There were only two Generals bearing 17 AS, the rest beared 18.

Doesn't change the fact that Ulki's a far better candidate for an Energy Drop than Heather will ever be.

I guess we're not assuming forges. Also, as pointed out already, Shinon has some Str issues. And you're ignoring Rolf's low starting level as well.

As for your numbers, that's just random variation.

Edited June 22, 2010 by Ein Lanford

[Narga_Rocks]

Apparently, I can't bring up Shinon because he is irrelevant when arguing Heather vs. Rolf. But, I actually have a good reason to do that. The first thing I noticed when going through HM, is that getting Exp isn't as easy as it used to be on NM, and with that, I don't judge Rolf as effecient, he is only a filler for Shinon, that's about it. Heather at least manages to be more useful than Rolf is in his early stages. There's just no point in fielding him after a while, you must limit your team's size to make leveling up easier. He's only 1RKO'ing Sages, his offense is pretty crappy against everything else.

shinon is irrelevant because

a: you could use both shinon and rolf if you want

b: we don't assume specific units are in competition for being fielded

Heather faces competition for the energy drop because no matter which units you are using, at least one of them is bound to use the drop better than she can. simple as that.

Hence, shinon is not a valid argument for not using Rolf, but the combination of Neph + Mia + Ulki + Janaff makes it tough for Heather to get a drop. Heck, even Lethe puts Heather to shame for the 3-5 drop. I think even stealing a silver dagger from the DB and getting Heather an A support isn't good enough. 29 mt, but Lethe can have 30 mt with the drop and she'd have more durability. Heather is probably not getting the ~7 levels necessary to have 31 mt that way. It's close, however Lethe still gives us more mt in 3-7 before Heather gets her greedy little hands on that dagger. Plus it means that we can't steal something else.

My main point to all of this was: Heather is better because she has actual utility whether Rolf needs to be trained only to become a filler Shinon. I might just be overrating Gold effeciency here, but I just asked to get her to Upper Middle, I don't mind if it's below Rolf.

Unless you are buying dumb things like steel longbows, money grows on trees. Getting stuff like the 3-5 energy drop, the 3-4 Ettard, the 2-E dracoshield are meaningful. Getting stuff like vulneraries? Not particularly meaningful, no.

The very same ones I got during said chapter in HM while playing. There were only two Generals bearing 17 AS, the rest beared 18.

Okay, but

a: PEMN. If you got more with 18 and Interceptor got more with 16 or 17 while playing, that means it can vary. Perhaps maybe only half have 17 on average, but the point is on average more than your 2.

b: Okay, but how many had 19 spd? It takes Rolf only 2 levels to get to 18. If the rest "beared" 18, then where did you come up with 4 or 5 levels? (ps: beared isn't a word. Try "bore". The rest "bore" 18. Personally, I'd go with "the rest had" if you don't know the proper form of "bear".)

And yeah, what is it with you and not giving them forges? seriously, you give Rolf a steel bow and have the nerve to complain that his damage isn't helping? He should have 34 mt, minimum, by 3-2. And frankly, it's not hard to get him a level and thus having a 75% chance at 35 mt.

Edited June 22, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Interceptor]

The stats on enemies vary, but the levels do not. We helpfully have all of the enemy bases and growths listed on the site, so feel free to crunch the numbers and figure out what the %chance is of having an 18 AS General. Note that the reason I compiled actual stats rather than derived ones, is because of exceptions like the super-lucky Soldier in 2-1; you never know if/when IS will custom tunes some unit's stats.

[Junkhead]

shinon is irrelevant because

a: you could use both shinon and rolf if you want

b: we don't assume specific units are in competition for being fielded

I wouldn't be stuck in this arguement if I did know that, really, with that in mind, I don't see how people in bother brining up supports in the first place, it's basically the same thing.

Okay, but

a: PEMN. If you got more with 18 and Interceptor got more with 16 or 17 while playing, that means it can vary. Perhaps maybe only half have 17 on average, but the point is on average more than your 2.

b: Okay, but how many had 19 spd? It takes Rolf only 2 levels to get to 18. If the rest "beared" 18, then where did you come up with 4 or 5 levels? (ps: beared isn't a word. Try "bore". The rest "bore" 18. Personally, I'd go with "the rest had" if you don't know the proper form of "bear".)

And yeah, what is it with you and not giving them forges? seriously, you give Rolf a steel bow and have the nerve to complain that his damage isn't helping? He should have 34 mt, minimum, by 3-2. And frankly, it's not hard to get him a level and thus having a 75% chance at 35 mt.

Okay, thanks for the lecture. But, I can't really consider that as PE, for one, I don't manipulate the RNG, and second, I went through a few random restarts. The results were the same. There are even 17 AS Generals at 3-P

Why would I waste money on him? There's Mia, she actually needs it better, with the prove you just gave, it makes it unnecesary.

[Narga_Rocks]

He caps Spd at 13 actually, but that's enough proof for his offense anyway. I won't nor can't argue anymore.

Are you seriously doing that stupid "25.95 doesn't count as 26" business? Give it up. Probability states that he is more likely to have spd capped by level 12 than not. Therefore, we are happy enough with stating level 12. Wanna take a guess at the probability he has it capped by level 12? 60%. http://www.feplanet.net/index.php?fep=games%2F10%2Fcharacters%2Faverages&id=48&key=5 Check his chance of having 23 spd or lower at level 12. Only 40%. 1 - .4 = .6, hence 60% chance of capping (remember, transfer gives +2).

In PoR, Ike allegedly caps str at 20/17 according to his averages. He, however, only has a 50% chance of actually capping. http://fea.fewiki.net/feastat.php?character=ike&game=9e&stat=1 Check under his chance of having 26 str at "37", which is level 20/17. Hell, even level 20/18, which is "26.5" by simple averages, only has a 57% chance of capping str. In other words, Rolf is so likely to cap spd by level 12 that if you don't assume he's doing it by then, to be consistent you'd have to assume Ike can't cap str until level 20/19 in PoR, when your beloved "hitting the target" happens at 20/17.

What the hell? I thought we were done with morons denying forges when smash "left". stop it now or I'll start ignoring you on this list. Check out Int's money situation. Are you telling me that you seriously can't afford to make a forge for both Mia and Rolf and anybody else who needs one AT THE SAME TIME??? Think for a minute. shinon even has only 21 str. Are you going to deny him one in 3-2 just because you despise Rolf? Without a forge, shinon is stuck at 31 mt. And hell, a silencer costs a ton anyway, certainly more than +5 mt and +10 or 15 hit on a steel forge. Are you denying the snipers a silencer now? If Rolf does nearly the same job with a forge and you'll say it's a waste on him, that implies it's a waste on shinon, too.

Edited June 22, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Junkhead]

Are you seriously doing that stupid "25.95 doesn't count as 26" business? Give it up. Probability states that he is more likely to have spd capped by level 12 than not. Therefore, we are happy enough with stating level 12. Wanna take a guess at the probability he has it capped by level 12? 60%. http://www.feplanet.net/index.php?fep=games%2F10%2Fcharacters%2Faverages&id=48&key=5 Check his chance of having 23 spd or lower at level 12. Only 40%. 1 - .4 = .6, hence 60% chance of capping (remember, transfer gives +2).

In PoR, Ike allegedly caps str at 20/17 according to his averages. He, however, only has a 50% chance of actually capping. http://fea.fewiki.net/feastat.php?character=ike&game=9e&stat=1 Check under his chance of having 26 str at "37", which is level 20/17. Hell, even level 20/18, which is "26.5" by simple averages, only has a 57% chance of capping str. In other words, Rolf is so likely to cap spd by level 12 that if you don't assume he's doing it by then, to be consistent you'd have to assume Ike can't cap str until level 20/19 in PoR, when your beloved "hitting the target" happens at 20/17.

What the hell? I thought we were done with morons denying forges when smash "left". stop it now or I'll start ignoring you on this list. Check out Int's money situation. Are you telling me that you seriously can't afford to make a forge for both Mia and Rolf and anybody else who needs one AT THE SAME TIME???

Did you even read the last part of that post? I don't have to bold it.

Are you telling me that you seriously can't afford to make a forge for both Mia and Rolf and anybody else who needs one AT THE SAME TIME???

Dude chill, I never used Rolf. Either way, it'll be my experince if I do.

Edited June 22, 2010 by Soul

[Florete]

But, I can't really consider that as PE, for one, I don't manipulate the RNG, and second, I went through a few random restarts.

That's what PEMN exists for. The stuff we don't control.

[Interceptor]

It's also worth noting that restarts after leaving the base are typically irrelevant, since the stats for enemies are locked in once the chapter is populated.

[Narga_Rocks]

Did you even read the last part of that post? I don't have to bold it.

Do you mean: "but that's enough proof for his offense anyway. I won't nor can't argue anymore."

Irrelevant. I'm trying to prevent future ignoring of applications of probability. If I don't explain to you now that level 12 is a better assumption than level 13, and state why, then I'll just have to do so the next time you decide to round .95 down for no good reason.

Dude chill, I never used Rolf. Either way, it'll be my experince if I do.

Okay? It's not about never using Rolf before. I've never used him on HM and won't unless I decide to bother getting a 20/20 Rolf in PoR first (read: not bloody likely). It's about the fact you were attempting to deny forges on units that benefit greatly by forges when we can afford to do it. Ike gets by with Ettard and fire/water/dark support. There isn't much point giving him one, though if you've given stuff to everyone that wants stuff then you can go ahead and give Ike a forge. Titania and Gatrie and Haar at the most need steel forges with around +3 or 4 str and +15 or 20 hit. Those aren't all that expensive. shinon/Rolf could perhaps be patient until the silencer, or just have a forge + the silencer. Actually, in Rolf's case, his str goes up so quickly he may not even need the silencer if you gave him a forge.

[Fenrir]

You probably fail to give Rolf a forge and the actual transfer, then. Did anyone even notice that if Rolf gets a forge (why not?) and even +1 str from levels that he is ORKOing 3 of 9 Paladins in 3-2? Hardly "chip", I'd say. Wow, who knew that Paladins had only 5 or 6 hp? I mean, if Rolf is killing them, and he is, and Rolf is doing only the 5 or 6 damage you seem to think he's doing (hint: you are so wrong you should feel humiliated) then that means that the Paladins must have only 5 or 6 hp.

Check the hard mode stats and calculate Rolf's averages if he gets +2 str and +2 spd from a transfer before making yourself look bad. Even base Rolf is killing 2 of them. And if you actually do get him 2 levels between 3-P and 3-1 (which if you are using him seriously, he should be getting them) then Rolf has a good shot at 21 str and 22 spd. His average is 20.5 str and 21.9 spd. Even if he doesn't get the spd, the 21 str is a 56.25% chance in 2 levels. For reference, a 35% spd growth has a 57.75% chance of proc'ing in 2 levels. 21 str means 36 mt with a forge which means 7 of 9 paladins die. Oh, and by the way, shinon has 21 str at base (Transfer units exist in a void so Rolf(T) doesn't care what shinon (T) might have for str). shinon also has a base level of 13 and only a 40% str growth. Meaning he's probably getting only 1 level in 3-P and 3-1 combined, and only has a 40% chance of actually having 22 str.

Um, why is Rolf getting attacked on enemy phase? seriously, if you can't protect Rolf then you can't protect shinon. Now, shinon has durability, but he's also a terrible unit for efficiency given we want stuff dying on enemy phase. shinon down to mid, please, if you think you can't prevent Rolf from getting attacked on enemy phase.

4-4. How quickly are you getting all the treasure without Heather?

Oh, and Rolf(T) can promote at level 12 if you don't care about his other stats. Level 12 gets him capped str and capped spd. Thanks to silencer and forges and double bow, we don't actually have to care about his skl/lck combo because he won't miss anyway. 12/1 Rolf is already giving you 29 str and 28 spd. When Titania promotes she's only giving you 29 str and 27 spd (27 spd requiring that speedwing we like giving her). If Rolf isn't killing stuff, I ask you what you think Titania is doing to enemies.

First off, you took my post completely out of context, i should feel humiliated? i was saying that rolf does 5-6 damage on armours in 3-P why dont YOU go look at enemy stats, and that is based on a SPEED and STRENGTH transfer.(hint: Rolf sucks against armors, the units that are the hardest for other people to take down and he is for sure chipping at this point. cavs can be ORKO by many units.)

Also, you don't think rolf should be attacked on enemy phase? your going out of your way to protect this guy? that hurts efficiency, and if you think shinnon could be put in MID?? your kidding right? Shinnon rapes any enemy in the face, and has good availability, and off the argument rolf isn't held back by no player phase, I'll put shinnon On TOP TIER.

4-4? I won't criticize you for dyslexia.

As for the underline, let me ask a question to everyone who is better for an efficient playthrough? the 2nd best bowman with lacking def because he got quick crowned(and it sucks anyways) or the Best paladin who has alright defense, and can actually counter people? Titan(N) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Rolf(T) one speed less for titan is bad, and even without speedwing if you gave her transfer, which makes the comparison fair, she'll be one down on speed but two up in strength, for part 3 and 4 i'm taking enough speed to double and two more strength + axes.(and of course counter attacks)

So i totally congratulate you on humiliating me by taking my posts out of contexts and saying rolf is better than titan and shinnon, but it's not like he needs a shitload of work and doesn't pay off as much.

Edited June 23, 2010 by Sirius

[Narga_Rocks]

First off, you took my post completely out of context, i should feel humiliated? i was saying that rolf does 5-6 damage on armours in 3-P why dont YOU go look at enemy stats, and that is based on a SPEED and STRENGTH transfer.(hint: Rolf sucks against armors, the units that are the hardest for other people to take down and he is for sure chipping at this point. cavs can be ORKO by many units.)

Right, because this post:

"Has anyone taken into account that heather steals an energy drop and draco shield, either a lot of money or adds to people's weak spots, and who has a weakness of def and str? well heather could fall under that category and these items make her or her team better, rolf helps with the mighty 5-6 damage an energy drops adds 4 damage to heather or mia's total attack(2 attacks with 2 higher might) so shouldn't heather get some credit for this?(not to mention it can help janaff, ulki, and ranulf ORKO more enemies. I fail to see where rolf is helpful anywhere past 3-1 and i see heather stealing all kinds of stuff"

TOTALLY indicates that you are only talking about 3-P and armors. Besides, you end it with "fail to see where rolf is helpful anywhere past 3-1". Forgive me for linking "can't do anything past 3-1" with "5-6 damage". If you were talking about 3-P then you don't even address what he is doing outside 3-1 anywhere in your post. Forgive me for thinking you were actually trying to make a good argument and thought you used those numbers to explain why he is bad outside 3-1. Oh well. Here's the thing, if you are hung up on armors for 3-P and 3-1 only, I don't have to be. Besides, 21 spd lets him double half the ones in 3-1 (or around that) and a couple in 3-P, upping his damage to "10 to 12" rather than "4 to 5".

Also, you don't think rolf should be attacked on enemy phase? your going out of your way to protect this guy? that hurts efficiency, and if you think shinnon could be put in MID?? your kidding right? Shinnon rapes any enemy in the face, and has good availability, and off the argument rolf isn't held back by no player phase, I'll put shinnon On TOP TIER.

Let me explain something to you.

P1: It is just as easy to prevent Rolf from getting attacked on Enemy Phase as it is to prevent that from happening to shinon

C1: If you can't stop it from happening to Rolf, you can't prevent it from happening to shinon

P2: It is very bad if shinon is attacked on enemy phase because he either can't counter or counters horrendously with the crossbow.

C2: If Rolf is getting attacked on enemy phase, then shinon is ruining efficiency by getting attacked on enemy phase.

C3: shinon is bad because he ruins efficiency on enemy phase. Therefore he should drop. Probably to mid, what with him ruining our efficiency.

Which part do you misunderstand? Which part do you disagree with? Are you suddenly saying that we can protect shinon but not Rolf? That's ridiculous. Absolute double-standard. Do you think that shinon's attack power on player phase is worth him being a hindrance on enemy phase? so worth it that you think top tier?

Look, shinon and rolf are not "held back" because we think they are getting attacked. They are "held back" because they aren't doing ANYTHING on enemy phase while all those other units are. That's why shinon is so low in high tier. We aren't assuming that the player is so tactically inept that he gets shinon attacked on enemy phase. Ditto we aren't assuming the player is getting Rolf attacked on enemy phase. They aren't "punished" by their bad enemy phase because the player is competent enough to prevent them from being attacked when it hurts efficiency. The other units are "rewarded" by their enemy phase. That's why shinon's lack of enemy phase hurts him. 7 < 5 + 5. Or whatever helps you understand. That 7 is not being reduced by bad enemy phase at all.

Anyway, your choice. Can you prevent snipers from being attacked enemy phase? If not, time for shinon to sink like a stone. He's where he is because we assume he's not hindering us enemy phase. We are assuming the player isn't incompetent. If you'd like me to stop assuming this and instead assume we can't keep a sniper from being attacked, I will happily lower both Rolf and shinon. I'll give you a hint, though: it's hilariously easy to use a sniper and prevent him getting attacked without ruining efficiency. Ask Interceptor. He used shinon the entire game and I'll bet you that he didn't have shinon tanking very many enemy phases. Do you think you can beat those turncounts while getting shinon attacked all the time? If not, then I'd have to argue that preventing a sniper from getting attacked is better for efficiency.

4-4? I won't criticize you for dyslexia.

And I won't criticize you for not being able to think. How's that? Heather is better off in 4-4 because there are a ton of treasure chests and she has 7 move and only 2 move cost for "gaps". Also, it's more important to go quickly in 4-4 because of the reinforcement swarm there. 4-3 there aren't actually all that many items to pick up so sothe can manage with help from fliers. You wanted her in 4-3. I was telling you that she is better in 4-4.

As for the underline, let me ask a question to everyone who is better for an efficient playthrough? the 2nd best bowman with lacking def because he got quick crowned(and it sucks anyways) or the Best paladin who has alright defense, and can actually counter people? Titan(N) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Rolf(T) one speed less for titan is bad, and even without speedwing if you gave her transfer, which makes the comparison fair, she'll be one down on speed but two up in strength, for part 3 and 4 i'm taking enough speed to double and two more strength + axes.(and of course counter attacks)

def is irrelevant. And he's better than shinon if you crown him at 12/1. At least, until the double bow appears and there is a reason to have him tank enemy phase. I was never saying he's > Titania. Titania has more move and an actual enemy phase. Titania isn't that many greater thans, though. And no, there is no reason to give her a transfer. This isn't about Titania v Rolf (T), and even if it was, Titania (N) is on the list. If I was comparing Rolf (T) to Titania (N) (hint, they are both on the list so I can), then it would be monumentally stupid to give Titania a transfer due to the fact we'd no longer be comparing Titania (N), we'd be comparing Titania(T). This is about if Rolf is bad offensively at 12/1 then Titania is bad offensively. Also, how the hell is Titania getting +2 str anyway? Not with a transfer, that's for sure. Plus, steel axe forges have 16 mt. Take a wild guess what the silencer has. Go ahead, I'm waiting. Do tell me the relevance of her using axes, oh mighty and supremely intelligent King soren. Besides, who the hell said I'm taking Rolf (T) over Titania? Is she the only unit I can drop to bring Rolf? What the hell? Look, the only point of the comparison was you idiots calling Rolf a "chipper" when he can have the same attack parameters as Titania. If he's chipping, what the hell is she doing?

"If Rolf isn't killing stuff, I ask you what you think Titania is doing to enemies."

That's the point I was making. Not whatever the hell you seem to think I was saying. I even wrote it as the last sentence just so you could skip to the end if you felt like ignoring everything. The point was merely to show that you were DEAD WRONG about Rolf "chipping forever", which is basically what all your "wah wah 5 damage wah wah chip wah wah thief > chip" business says.

So i totally congratulate you on humiliating me by taking my posts out of contexts and saying rolf is better than titan and shinnon, but it's not like he needs a shitload of work and doesn't pay off as much.

nonono. I wasn't saying "I'm humiliating you". I said you should feel bad for thinking Rolf is doing terrible damage outside 3-P and 3-1. Hell, even in 3-P and 3-1 it's only armors. Okay, since you were thinking 5-6 damage on Generals without actually indicating that, how's this: you should feel bad for thinking that a few enemies in 3-P and 3-1 determine Rolf's entire worth. Is that better?

Besides, I don't need to try to make you look bad. You accomplish that yourself.

Oh, and sure, thieving utility > chipping. The problem is that Rolf can do a hell of a lot more than mere chipping. What's so hard about that for you to understand? Do you think the entire game is 3-P and 3-1 Generals while Rolf has no access to forges?

so yeah, sure, thieving utility > chipping, but that argument means as much for Heather v Rolf as nukes v guns. It's irrelevant. You might as well talk about gum wrappers for the relevance it has in Heather v Rolf.

Edited June 22, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Florete]

(hint: Rolf sucks against armors, the units that are the hardest for other people to take down and he is for sure chipping at this point. cavs can be ORKO by many units.)

Rolf is chipping the hardest enemies in the map to take down, therefore he sucks...yeah.

[Narga_Rocks]

Rolf is chipping the hardest enemies in the map to take down, therefore he sucks...yeah.

Hmm, good point. Now, the way we look at Transfer units assume they are the only transfer unit on the team. Hence, for Rolf (T), there are no other transfer units. That gives a serious lack of units with 21 or 22 spd. Ike, Titania, Oscar, shinon, Mia. And Rolf (T). That's not a lot of units. Rolf has 29 mt with a steel bow. Even various mages have 17 or 18 spd, meaning that there aren't many options for attacking those. Take the fire sages that Rolf ORKOs in 3-P. Only Ike, Titania, Oscar, and shinon are ORKOing them, however they are also (aside from Oscar) some of our best units against Generals. Rolf(T) frees them up to attack those things. Plus, on the Generals that Rolf doubles, that 10 or 12 damage can be very important considering nobody is ORKOing those things. Now, sure, others can chip, too, but some of those others are either soren/Rhys with their 6 move or Boyd that takes a counter. Plus, Boyd with a steel axe (number of steel poleaxes are limited) has just 32 mt and does only 8 or 9 damage to Generals (he doesn't double). Wow, Rolf is outdamaging Boyd on some Generals (about half of them, actually). In fact, on average, Rolf is doing 7.5 to 9 damage, due to doing 5 or 6 to half of them and 10 or 12 on the other half. Considering Boyd is dong 8 or 9, that's about the same on average, only guess what? Rolf takes no counters. (Yeah, short axe exists, but there's only one. Granted, only one steel bow exists, but Rolf should probably have either a killer bow or a steel bow (max efficiency by giving one to each of the bow guys due to a bow guy only being able to use one at a time). One way or the other, he's doing something cool.)

[RNG Princess]

I never thought Rolf was gay

Anyway Rolf is useful in 3-P, 3-1, and 3-2 three chapters to train him for free :3

3-3 comes in and you have to kick some people out. Soren, Mist/Rhys, Ilyana, Rolf, Brom, and Heather are all candidates for the last spot.

Theres only like 1 coin in the map and not many stealable items. You can steal a mend, and a javelin iirc and if you want to forgive the senators Heather can steal their items.

I guess Transfered Rolf can save a turn or two, maybe give him crossbow helps enemy phase.

Edited June 22, 2010 by Queen_Elincia