OMG it's a tier list

[Fenrir]

Right, because this post:

"Has anyone taken into account that heather steals an energy drop and draco shield, either a lot of money or adds to people's weak spots, and who has a weakness of def and str? well heather could fall under that category and these items make her or her team better, rolf helps with the mighty 5-6 damage an energy drops adds 4 damage to heather or mia's total attack(2 attacks with 2 higher might) so shouldn't heather get some credit for this?(not to mention it can help janaff, ulki, and ranulf ORKO more enemies. I fail to see where rolf is helpful anywhere past 3-1 and i see heather stealing all kinds of stuff"

TOTALLY indicates that you are only talking about 3-P and armors. Besides, you end it with "fail to see where rolf is helpful anywhere past 3-1". Forgive me for linking "can't do anything past 3-1" with "5-6 damage". If you were talking about 3-P then you don't even address what he is doing outside 3-1 anywhere in your post. Forgive me for thinking you were actually trying to make a good argument and thought you used those numbers to explain why he is bad outside 3-1. Oh well. Here's the thing, if you are hung up on armors for 3-P and 3-1 only, I don't have to be. Besides, 21 spd lets him double half the ones in 3-1 (or around that) and a couple in 3-P, upping his damage to "10 to 12" rather than "4 to 5".

Let me explain something to you.

P1: It is just as easy to prevent Rolf from getting attacked on Enemy Phase as it is to prevent that from happening to shinon

C1: If you can't stop it from happening to Rolf, you can't prevent it from happening to shinon

P2: It is very bad if shinon is attacked on enemy phase because he either can't counter or counters horrendously with the crossbow.

C2: If Rolf is getting attacked on enemy phase, then shinon is ruining efficiency by getting attacked on enemy phase.

C3: shinon is bad because he ruins efficiency on enemy phase. Therefore he should drop. Probably to mid, what with him ruining our efficiency.

Which part do you misunderstand? Which part do you disagree with? Are you suddenly saying that we can protect shinon but not Rolf? That's ridiculous. Absolute double-standard. Do you think that shinon's attack power on player phase is worth him being a hindrance on enemy phase? so worth it that you think top tier?

Look, shinon and rolf are not "held back" because we think they are getting attacked. They are "held back" because they aren't doing ANYTHING on enemy phase while all those other units are. That's why shinon is so low in high tier. We aren't assuming that the player is so tactically inept that he gets shinon attacked on enemy phase. Ditto we aren't assuming the player is getting Rolf attacked on enemy phase. They aren't "punished" by their bad enemy phase because the player is competent enough to prevent them from being attacked when it hurts efficiency. The other units are "rewarded" by their enemy phase. That's why shinon's lack of enemy phase hurts him. 7 < 5 + 5. Or whatever helps you understand. That 7 is not being reduced by bad enemy phase at all.

Anyway, your choice. Can you prevent snipers from being attacked enemy phase? If not, time for shinon to sink like a stone. He's where he is because we assume he's not hindering us enemy phase. We are assuming the player isn't incompetent. If you'd like me to stop assuming this and instead assume we can't keep a sniper from being attacked, I will happily lower both Rolf and shinon. I'll give you a hint, though: it's hilariously easy to use a sniper and prevent him getting attacked without ruining efficiency. Ask Interceptor. He used shinon the entire game and I'll bet you that he didn't have shinon tanking very many enemy phases. Do you think you can beat those turncounts while getting shinon attacked all the time? If not, then I'd have to argue that preventing a sniper from getting attacked is better for efficiency.

And I won't criticize you for not being able to think. How's that? Heather is better off in 4-4 because there are a ton of treasure chests and she has 7 move and only 2 move cost for "gaps". Also, it's more important to go quickly in 4-4 because of the reinforcement swarm there. 4-3 there aren't actually all that many items to pick up so sothe can manage with help from fliers. You wanted her in 4-3. I was telling you that she is better in 4-4.

def is irrelevant. And he's better than shinon if you crown him at 12/1. At least, until the double bow appears and there is a reason to have him tank enemy phase. I was never saying he's > Titania. Titania has more move and an actual enemy phase. Titania isn't that many greater thans, though. And no, there is no reason to give her a transfer. This isn't about Titania v Rolf (T), and even if it was, Titania (N) is on the list. If I was comparing Rolf (T) to Titania (N) (hint, they are both on the list so I can), then it would be monumentally stupid to give Titania a transfer due to the fact we'd no longer be comparing Titania (N), we'd be comparing Titania(T). This is about if Rolf is bad offensively at 12/1 then Titania is bad offensively. Also, how the hell is Titania getting +2 str anyway? Not with a transfer, that's for sure. Plus, steel axe forges have 16 mt. Take a wild guess what the silencer has. Go ahead, I'm waiting. Do tell me the relevance of her using axes, oh mighty and supremely intelligent King soren. Besides, who the hell said I'm taking Rolf (T) over Titania? Is she the only unit I can drop to bring Rolf? What the hell? Look, the only point of the comparison was you idiots calling Rolf a "chipper" when he can have the same attack parameters as Titania. If he's chipping, what the hell is she doing?

"If Rolf isn't killing stuff, I ask you what you think Titania is doing to enemies."

That's the point I was making. Not whatever the hell you seem to think I was saying. I even wrote it as the last sentence just so you could skip to the end if you felt like ignoring everything. The point was merely to show that you were DEAD WRONG about Rolf "chipping forever", which is basically what all your "wah wah 5 damage wah wah chip wah wah thief > chip" business says.

nonono. I wasn't saying "I'm humiliating you". I said you should feel bad for thinking Rolf is doing terrible damage outside 3-P and 3-1. Hell, even in 3-P and 3-1 it's only armors. Okay, since you were thinking 5-6 damage on Generals without actually indicating that, how's this: you should feel bad for thinking that a few enemies in 3-P and 3-1 determine Rolf's entire worth. Is that better?

Besides, I don't need to try to make you look bad. You accomplish that yourself.

Oh, and sure, thieving utility > chipping. The problem is that Rolf can do a hell of a lot more than mere chipping. What's so hard about that for you to understand? Do you think the entire game is 3-P and 3-1 Generals while Rolf has no access to forges?

so yeah, sure, thieving utility > chipping, but that argument means as much for Heather v Rolf as nukes v guns. It's irrelevant. You might as well talk about gum wrappers for the relevance it has in Heather v Rolf.

Bold was in an earlier post, if i were you i'd actually look at what people are saying before jumping into an arguement.

I understand what your saying about shinnon, it was different from my point of view on it, Rolf requires more healing if he is attacked and is ahnoying to watch out for, shinnon just goes out there and doesn't get hit after a few levels.

4-4? i do not understand, you can have a ton of chest keys, and on 4-3 its at least an idea, that could help out at times.

Bold made me lol, To get rolf to higher levels is dumb and a pain in the ass, i used rolf on NM which is about same as HM with transfer(correct me if im wrong) He was a pain in the ass, you have to feed kills to him and all this other shit, Rolf would be great on another team, but GMs make him look stupid.(apparently like i make myself O_O)Mainly however it cuts effeciancy, Mia neph and others are much better, and could you explain how if you took the time to get a rolf transfer it would be the only one out of any of the General Motors?

rolf does alot more than chipping. i get the point, but if we used characters like this in effeciant hard mode runs i'd use eddy every time. So lets move eddy up a few tiers aswell.

I never thought Rolf was gay

Anyway Rolf is useful in 3-P, 3-1, and 3-2 three chapters to train him for free :3

3-3 comes in and you have to kick some people out. Soren, Mist/Rhys, Ilyana, Rolf, Brom, and Heather are all candidates for the last spot.

Theres only like 1 coin in the map and not many stealable items. You can steal a mend, and a javelin iirc and if you want to forgive the senators Heather can steal their items.

I guess Transfered Rolf can save a turn or two, maybe give him crossbow helps enemy phase.

on 3-3 you can steal stuff from senators and get more bexp, IMO better than rolf.

[nflchamp]

I doubt the BEXP from the senators will even result in a level for Rolf.

[Anouleth]

Bold was in an earlier post, if i were you i'd actually look at what people are saying before jumping into an arguement.

I understand what your saying about shinnon, it was different from my point of view on it, Rolf requires more healing if he is attacked and is ahnoying to watch out for, shinnon just goes out there and doesn't get hit after a few levels.

4-4? i do not understand, you can have a ton of chest keys, and on 4-3 its at least an idea, that could help out at times.

Bold made me lol, To get rolf to higher levels is dumb and a pain in the ass, i used rolf on NM which is about same as HM with transfer(correct me if im wrong) He was a pain in the ass, you have to feed kills to him and all this other shit, Rolf would be great on another team, but GMs make him look stupid.(apparently like i make myself O_O)Mainly however it cuts effeciancy, Mia neph and others are much better, and could you explain how if you took the time to get a rolf transfer it would be the only one out of any of the General Motors?

rolf does alot more than chipping. i get the point, but if we used characters like this in effeciant hard mode runs i'd use eddy every time. So lets move eddy up a few tiers aswell.

on 3-3 you can steal stuff from senators and get more bexp, IMO better than rolf.

-Shinon should not be attacked any more than Rolf should. Both have no way to counter at 1-range, so in both cases it hurts efficiency.

-When we talk about a character with transfers, we compare them to a team that lacks transfers - just because we avoid incredibly messy comparisons this way.

-Rolf can perform comparably to Titania in terms of offense, so you think Edward should go up? Edward needs to be 20/01 to be comparable to even base level Zihark. Rolf needs 12/1 to be comparably to 20/01 Titania with a Speedwing. It's clear that they are not similiar positions - Rolf is giving us good returns on the effort needed to train him, but even when trained Edward still sucks.

-3-3 BEXP is minute in HM. Seriously, it's pathetic. Heather can obviously invoke it in her favour, but she's getting maybe 1000 (I don't recall off the top of my head), which is like a third of a level.

[Narga_Rocks]

Bold was in an earlier post, if i were you i'd actually look at what people are saying before jumping into an arguement.

Irrelevant. I'm trying to broaden your eyesight by pointing out what he does elsewhere. If the debate was Rolf's 3-P and 3-1 against Generals only vs. Heather's thieving whenever you can, Heather would win. Trouble is, it's not, and therefore I don't have to bother. Hence, sorry for saying you made yourself look stupid by saying he can't do good damage to non-Generals. I'm sorry, you weren't making yourself look stupid that way. It was by narrowing the argument to Rolf's worst enemies in his worst chapters. I might as well start looking at Heather in a chapter you can't get anything but coins and disarmed weapons. Would that be fair to Heather? No way, and so I won't do that.

I understand what your saying about shinnon, it was different from my point of view on it, Rolf requires more healing if he is attacked and is ahnoying to watch out for, shinnon just goes out there and doesn't get hit after a few levels.

Dodging without dealing damage back is almost as bad as Rolf needing healing while not dealing damage back. I don't see the point. Two bad things we don't want happening ever and therefore don't let happen. It doesn't actually matter which one is worst. Rolf getting hit could cause you to lose the game and it wouldn't matter in the comparison against shinon until 4-E (or maybe 4-5 if you wanna go with beastfoe crossbows or something similar) because we aren't going to let it happen.

4-4? i do not understand, you can have a ton of chest keys, and on 4-3 its at least an idea, that could help out at times.

I forget, can you ever buy unlimited amounts? There are more chests than just 4-4, though not as many as other FE games. Also, the only units that move around this map better than her are transformed laguz while transformed (and I suppose untransformed hawks). Heather has better move than other beorc here, and therefore it's better to let her do it when possible.

Bold made me lol, To get rolf to higher levels is dumb and a pain in the ass, i used rolf on NM which is about same as HM with transfer(correct me if im wrong) He was a pain in the ass, you have to feed kills to him and all this other shit, Rolf would be great on another team, but GMs make him look stupid.(apparently like i make myself O_O)Mainly however it cuts effeciancy, Mia neph and others are much better, and could you explain how if you took the time to get a rolf transfer it would be the only one out of any of the General Motors?

This is why I hate people coming in months after decisions were made. It's the easiest way to debate transfer units. You can't tell me which units get a transfer and which don't, and you can't tell me every unit is getting a transfer. Therefore, to avoid "well, did Titania get one while we play with Boyd (T)?" and "did Mia get one while we look at Neph?" and all that crap, transfer units are treated as if they are on a team of non-transfer units.

Anyway, leveling Rolf on NM isn't actually all that hard. Don't know what your trouble is. I'm betting you didn't forge for him? Besides, Rolf (T) is better on HM than Rolf (N) on NM since most enemy units are only getting about +1 spd on HM. Hence, Rolf (N) in NM is at a 1 spd disadvantage to Rolf (T) on HM. That makes all the difference since it's easier to give kills to a ORKOing Rolf than a guy that needs you feeding him kills.

And no, obviously if you make a 20/20 Rolf he isn't being your only Transfer unit, but this was done for a reason. Keep in mind, the same applies to any PoR unit. If you get a transfer for Titania we are making this list as if she is the only transfer unit in the game. It's simpler that way since we can avoid stupid arguments about which units are likely to get a transfer and all that. I could claim that the only transfer units are going to be Ike, Mia, Jill, Marcia, Nephenee, Rolf because that's all the player bothered to make. Rolf(T) looks pretty nice on that team. You could come back and tell me they are making Ike, Gatrie, Titania, Boyd, Oscar, Rolf. Now suddenly Rolf is looking terrible on that team since many of the units with trouble getting speed are suddenly getting +2 spd. And now how do you rate Rolf (T)? Are you averaging out the potential (T) teams he lives in and determine his overall usefulness that way? It's not practical. Believe me, it's simpler the way we are doing it.

rolf does alot more than chipping. i get the point, but if we used characters like this in effeciant hard mode runs i'd use eddy every time. So lets move eddy up a few tiers aswell.

It's easier to get Rolf there. The rest of us, at one time or another, have probably tried to raise Eddie. It doesn't work. You have to slow down too much to get him enough kills to even double anything. He spends the entirety of part 1 doubling about 30 to 40% of each map if you try to raise him. Then in part 3 he blows even if you did make a 20/2 Eddie for 3-6. He isn't any good until maybe 4-4 or something. This isn't even remotely similar to Rolf's situation. He has difficulties in 3-P, 3-1, 3-3. That's about it, frankly, depending on leveling speed. This isn't even on the same planet as Eddie's situation. In addition, while you are being extra nice to Rolf in 3-P, 3-1, and 3-3, he's at least avoiding counters, unlike a certain Eddie (unless you want him to be even more terrible with inaccurate and weak (in Ed's hands) wind edges).

on 3-3 you can steal stuff from senators and get more bexp, IMO better than rolf.

It's actually a very small amount of bexp. And that is not better than what Rolf can do. Throw on top of it her other duties in some other chapters? It depends on how quickly Rolf can level without slowing us down. Unfortunately, nobody has actually tried. What I can tell you, though, is that level 1 Rolf, facing enemies that are level 7 (and later 2 v 8, 3 v 9), is getting 29 exp per kill and 8 exp per hit. The chapters aren't 2 or 3 turns long so if he's even getting 3 kills and 2 hits per chapter, he's leveling every chapter. That's only 5 actions per chapter and not even all of them are kills. And if you just accomplish that, you can still get him to be pretty good by 3-7. Considering many chapters have a fair amount of stuff to do, I think you can easily get Rolf more than 1 level per chapter. Maybe 1.3 or 1.4 or even 1.7 or something. And that's ignoring the fact you have bexp to spread around to everyone.

[Fenrir]

-Shinon should not be attacked any more than Rolf should. Both have no way to counter at 1-range, so in both cases it hurts efficiency.

-When we talk about a character with transfers, we compare them to a team that lacks transfers - just because we avoid incredibly messy comparisons this way.

-Rolf can perform comparably to Titania in terms of offense, so you think Edward should go up? Edward needs to be 20/01 to be comparable to even base level Zihark. Rolf needs 12/1 to be comparably to 20/01 Titania with a Speedwing. It's clear that they are not similiar positions - Rolf is giving us good returns on the effort needed to train him, but even when trained Edward still sucks.

-3-3 BEXP is minute in HM. Seriously, it's pathetic. Heather can obviously invoke it in her favour, but she's getting maybe 1000 (I don't recall off the top of my head), which is like a third of a level.

bold, thats total bullshit, that's like comparing a level 20 character to a level one character, or a guy using wishblade to a guy using short spear, it's not even close to practical.

as for the rest, i don't think anyone is getting what i'm trying to say about shinnon, he rarely has to heal, so that puts him at a bit(just a tiny bit) better advantage than rolf)

You, once again missed the point, Rolf is hard and ahnoying to use, i feel the same way about eddy or leo, so let's use them.

the bexp isn't worth much but it's something, enough to top a character.(IMO better than wasting your time on rolfs ass)

[RNG Princess]

Rolf does have vast space to grow in, 3 free chapters without shoeing someone out is good. I'm pretty sure his durability isn't the worst, he also has his own bow affording you money (I use it :D) but I'd rather give someone else the kill, I'd give him the left overs instead. There are certain chapters where she is a better choice than Rolf like 3-4 for Ettard etc.

Edited June 23, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Fenrir]

Irrelevant. I'm trying to broaden your eyesight by pointing out what he does elsewhere. If the debate was Rolf's 3-P and 3-1 against Generals only vs. Heather's thieving whenever you can, Heather would win. Trouble is, it's not, and therefore I don't have to bother. Hence, sorry for saying you made yourself look stupid by saying he can't do good damage to non-Generals. I'm sorry, you weren't making yourself look stupid that way. It was by narrowing the argument to Rolf's worst enemies in his worst chapters. I might as well start looking at Heather in a chapter you can't get anything but coins and disarmed weapons. Would that be fair to Heather? No way, and so I won't do that.

Dodging without dealing damage back is almost as bad as Rolf needing healing while not dealing damage back. I don't see the point. Two bad things we don't want happening ever and therefore don't let happen. It doesn't actually matter which one is worst. Rolf getting hit could cause you to lose the game and it wouldn't matter in the comparison against shinon until 4-E (or maybe 4-5 if you wanna go with beastfoe crossbows or something similar) because we aren't going to let it happen.

I forget, can you ever buy unlimited amounts? There are more chests than just 4-4, though not as many as other FE games. Also, the only units that move around this map better than her are transformed laguz while transformed (and I suppose untransformed hawks). Heather has better move than other beorc here, and therefore it's better to let her do it when possible.

This is why I hate people coming in months after decisions were made. It's the easiest way to debate transfer units. You can't tell me which units get a transfer and which don't, and you can't tell me every unit is getting a transfer. Therefore, to avoid "well, did Titania get one while we play with Boyd (T)?" and "did Mia get one while we look at Neph?" and all that crap, transfer units are treated as if they are on a team of non-transfer units.

Anyway, leveling Rolf on NM isn't actually all that hard. Don't know what your trouble is. I'm betting you didn't forge for him? Besides, Rolf (T) is better on HM than Rolf (N) on NM since most enemy units are only getting about +1 spd on HM. Hence, Rolf (N) in NM is at a 1 spd disadvantage to Rolf (T) on HM. That makes all the difference since it's easier to give kills to a ORKOing Rolf than a guy that needs you feeding him kills.

And no, obviously if you make a 20/20 Rolf he isn't being your only Transfer unit, but this was done for a reason. Keep in mind, the same applies to any PoR unit. If you get a transfer for Titania we are making this list as if she is the only transfer unit in the game. It's simpler that way since we can avoid stupid arguments about which units are likely to get a transfer and all that. I could claim that the only transfer units are going to be Ike, Mia, Jill, Marcia, Nephenee, Rolf because that's all the player bothered to make. Rolf(T) looks pretty nice on that team. You could come back and tell me they are making Ike, Gatrie, Titania, Boyd, Oscar, Rolf. Now suddenly Rolf is looking terrible on that team since many of the units with trouble getting speed are suddenly getting +2 spd. And now how do you rate Rolf (T)? Are you averaging out the potential (T) teams he lives in and determine his overall usefulness that way? It's not practical. Believe me, it's simpler the way we are doing it.

It's easier to get Rolf there. The rest of us, at one time or another, have probably tried to raise Eddie. It doesn't work. You have to slow down too much to get him enough kills to even double anything. He spends the entirety of part 1 doubling about 30 to 40% of each map if you try to raise him. Then in part 3 he blows even if you did make a 20/2 Eddie for 3-6. He isn't any good until maybe 4-4 or something. This isn't even remotely similar to Rolf's situation. He has difficulties in 3-P, 3-1, 3-3. That's about it, frankly, depending on leveling speed. This isn't even on the same planet as Eddie's situation. In addition, while you are being extra nice to Rolf in 3-P, 3-1, and 3-3, he's at least avoiding counters, unlike a certain Eddie (unless you want him to be even more terrible with inaccurate and weak (in Ed's hands) wind edges).

It's actually a very small amount of bexp. And that is not better than what Rolf can do. Throw on top of it her other duties in some other chapters? It depends on how quickly Rolf can level without slowing us down. Unfortunately, nobody has actually tried. What I can tell you, though, is that level 1 Rolf, facing enemies that are level 7 (and later 2 v 8, 3 v 9), is getting 29 exp per kill and 8 exp per hit. The chapters aren't 2 or 3 turns long so if he's even getting 3 kills and 2 hits per chapter, he's leveling every chapter. That's only 5 actions per chapter and not even all of them are kills. And if you just accomplish that, you can still get him to be pretty good by 3-7. Considering many chapters have a fair amount of stuff to do, I think you can easily get Rolf more than 1 level per chapter. Maybe 1.3 or 1.4 or even 1.7 or something. And that's ignoring the fact you have bexp to spread around to everyone.

bold, obviously i was wrong, in the fact you can use rolf past 3-1 but i was assuming he would slow you down past there, i don't think a Rolf(t) would but compared to other transfered units he does, and i had no idea about this rule of, "the only transfer unit on your team" rule, which i still don't get the point of.

Yeah edward is extremely hard to train(i threw items at him but just got frustrated and gave up)that was probably a bad comparison but he's the first that comes to mind when i think of "bad now good later". I think Aran is better, there is someone in his class who is largely regarded as better(some say aran is better, and some say rolf is better but most side with neph and shinnon) he's hard to train, does good after reaching tier 2, but then neph is much better in the endgame. Does that make more since?

Rolf does have vast space to grow in, 3 free chapters without shoeing someone out is good. I'm pretty sure his durability isn't the worst, he also has his own bow affording you money (I use it :D) but I'd rather give someone else the kill, I'd give him the left overs instead. There are certain chapters where she is a better choice than Rolf like 3-4 for Ettard etc.

I don't get the point of that, rolf is better for 3-4, ettard is worse than a steel blade or forge, so why bother with ettard? when rolf is proven to be better in combat?

Edited June 23, 2010 by King Soren

[RNG Princess]

bold, obviously i was wrong, in the fact you can use rolf past 3-1 but i was assuming he would slow you down past there, i don't think a Rolf(t) would but compared to other transfered units he does, and i had no idea about this rule of, "the only transfer unit on your team" rule, which i still don't get the point of.

Yeah edward is extremely hard to train(i threw items at him but just got frustrated and gave up)that was probably a bad comparison but he's the first that comes to mind when i think of "bad now good later". I think Aran is better, there is someone in his class who is largely regarded as better(some say aran is better, and some say rolf is better but most side with neph and shinnon) he's hard to train, does good after reaching tier 2, but then neph is much better in the endgame. Does that make more since?

I don't get the point of that, rolf is better for 3-4, ettard is worse than a steel blade or forge, so why bother with ettard? when rolf is proven to be better in combat?

Ettard is a free sword it has 1 less mt more hit and crit than steel blade so I say its equal. You can have both in that chapter but if I got to pick one I'd say Heather is more convenient.

[Fenrir]

Ettard is a free sword it has 1 less mt more hit and crit than steel blade so I say its equal. You can have both in that chapter but if I got to pick one I'd say Heather is more convenient.

The hit is irrelevent to Ike, and i'd rather have an extra critical forge that has + might.

Another question i have is, why does heather get credit for stealing but someone like Ilyana not get credit for transfering items, it's a somewhat similar scenario, involving character worth by items, i know that energy drop on 3-5 is not gonna ever reach your team, but selling an asherea icon with GMs is better than selling with DB because of forges(extra mt like an energy drop)for General motors

[Narga_Rocks]

bold, obviously i was wrong, in the fact you can use rolf past 3-1 but i was assuming he would slow you down past there, i don't think a Rolf(t) would but compared to other transfered units he does, and i had no idea about this rule of, "the only transfer unit on your team" rule, which i still don't get the point of.

so you find it better to look at Rolf (T) and have absolutely no idea what the rest of his team looks like? As I said, there are multiple units that can receive transfers in PoR but you aren't getting one for everyone. How do you determine which GMs have a transfer and which ones don't? You can't. so what, do you make up 10+ random teams where you mix up who gets transfers and who doesn't, and then look at how Rolf(T) does on each team, average it out, and place him on a list then? Well that's great. Now do the same thing for every other unit that was in PoR. Including, btw, all those laguz that can't cap squat in PoR. In a month when you are done making all those comparison, do come back and let us know where everyone should go.

Or you could leave well enough alone.

I don't get the point of that, rolf is better for 3-4, ettard is worse than a steel blade or forge, so why bother with ettard? when rolf is proven to be better in combat?

Ettard is also free and the +2 str from a fire/water/dark support is generally enough for him to KO anything he comes across but Generals (and the crit from Ettard is at least better than nothing). A forge for Ike is incredibly low priority. It's something you might do if you made what is good for everyone else, noticed you still had a ton of money, and decided "what the hell?" and gave him one. But you might as well get a second Ettard and try to break them both before you get Ragnell. (I think I once got through one and got the second to about half)

And stealing is a command action based on class abilities. Heather must run up, steal the item, and you must keep her alive. There isn't anything like that for Ilyana. You place the items in her inventory. You get them in 3-2. You could never deploy her after 1-3 and still pull this off (minus the speedwing and anything else you hand her at the end of 1-E). They are not the same at all.

[Anouleth]

bold, thats total bullshit, that's like comparing a level 20 character to a level one character, or a guy using wishblade to a guy using short spear, it's not even close to practical.

As Narga pointed out, it's next to impossible to determine which characters are 'likely' to have transfers and which characters are unlikely. In addition, if Rolf (T) is being judged by higher standards than Rolf (N), then they might very well be in the same position - which does not accurately reflect the difference in performance between Rolf (T)

as for the rest, i don't think anyone is getting what i'm trying to say about shinnon, he rarely has to heal, so that puts him at a bit(just a tiny bit) better advantage than rolf)

So? Rolf doesn't need to heal either since he (get this) shouldn't be taking counters!

You, once again missed the point, Rolf is hard and ahnoying to use, i feel the same way about eddy or leo, so let's use them.

Edward and Leo aren't low because they're 'hard to use'. They're low because they suck.

the bexp isn't worth much but it's something, enough to top a character.(IMO better than wasting your time on rolfs ass)

Very little.

[nflchamp]

To add onto the transfer in a void thing. If transfers have to compete against transfers, non-transfers have to compete against transfers, too. Which is another reason why it was deemed acceptable to use the units in a void; all the non-transfer units were already compared against non-transfer units.

[Fenrir]

so you find it better to look at Rolf (T) and have absolutely no idea what the rest of his team looks like? As I said, there are multiple units that can receive transfers in PoR but you aren't getting one for everyone. How do you determine which GMs have a transfer and which ones don't? You can't. so what, do you make up 10+ random teams where you mix up who gets transfers and who doesn't, and then look at how Rolf(T) does on each team, average it out, and place him on a list then? Well that's great. Now do the same thing for every other unit that was in PoR. Including, btw, all those laguz that can't cap squat in PoR. In a month when you are done making all those comparison, do come back and let us know where everyone should go.

Or you could leave well enough alone.

Ettard is also free and the +2 str from a fire/water/dark support is generally enough for him to KO anything he comes across but Generals (and the crit from Ettard is at least better than nothing). A forge for Ike is incredibly low priority. It's something you might do if you made what is good for everyone else, noticed you still had a ton of money, and decided "what the hell?" and gave him one. But you might as well get a second Ettard and try to break them both before you get Ragnell. (I think I once got through one and got the second to about half)

And stealing is a command action based on class abilities. Heather must run up, steal the item, and you must keep her alive. There isn't anything like that for Ilyana. You place the items in her inventory. You get them in 3-2. You could never deploy her after 1-3 and still pull this off (minus the speedwing and anything else you hand her at the end of 1-E). They are not the same at all.

As Narga pointed out, it's next to impossible to determine which characters are 'likely' to have transfers and which characters are unlikely. In addition, if Rolf (T) is being judged by higher standards than Rolf (N), then they might very well be in the same position - which does not accurately reflect the difference in performance between Rolf (T)

So? Rolf doesn't need to heal either since he (get this) shouldn't be taking counters!

Edward and Leo aren't low because they're 'hard to use'. They're low because they suck.

Very little.

But(get this)eddy would also be great if he didn't get attacked on enemy phase, and he's still get once he hits 3rd tier(look at his growths)

To add onto the transfer in a void thing. If transfers have to compete against transfers, non-transfers have to compete against transfers, too. Which is another reason why it was deemed acceptable to use the units in a void; all the non-transfer units were already compared against non-transfer units.

So, all in all i don't think it's the best way, but it's a pretty sticky topic, (and like narga was saying, you'd have to do a weird calculation, so IMO transfers can screw up tiers, thats why i like Non transfer tier more.) Because if your saying rolf(t) does something it is hard to justify it over a non-transfer character who is eligible. but i still think heather is better! and quite frankly, i think shinnon has everything to do with heather being > rolf(t) because if there was a super awesome theif availible in P3(like if volke had his bases and steal skill) Heather wuold be seeing the bench more often. But of course your probly wondering, that's for a thief so it's different, i think there are better characters on GM than rolf aside from sihnnon, Titan, haar, Gatrie can be if crowned, mia, nephenee, and depending on how RNG treats you the other 2 brothers. But all of those characters are chosen subjectivly, not to mention the hawks + ranulf that beat rolf. Thats alot of units higher than rolf, and heather is going on the field because of a unique ability that none of the others have. Making her possibly superior

[dondon151]

But(get this)eddy would also be great if he didn't get attacked on enemy phase, and he's still get once he hits 3rd tier(look at his growths)

No, he wouldn't. Eddie's damage output is less than stellar. To increase damage output, he relies on enemy phase counters. Furthermore, compared to Rolf-T, Eddie needs a lot more EXP to reach the point where he becomes good (whereas Rolf-T starts out pretty close to being good), and part 1 is where enemy stats grow the fastest (if you compare soldier stats in 1-2 against 1-7, they gain 4-5 AS in just 5 chapters, while if you compare halberdier stats in 3-1 against 3-7, they only gain 1 AS in 5 chapters). If that isn't bad enough for Eddie, he generally always has to take a player phase counter if he doesn't want to chip at something with a pathetic weapon such as a Wind Edge.

[Fenrir]

No, he wouldn't. Eddie's damage output is less than stellar. To increase damage output, he relies on enemy phase counters. Furthermore, compared to Rolf-T, Eddie needs a lot more EXP to reach the point where he becomes good (whereas Rolf-T starts out pretty close to being good), and part 1 is where enemy stats grow the fastest (if you compare soldier stats in 1-2 against 1-7, they gain 4-5 AS in just 5 chapters, while if you compare halberdier stats in 3-1 against 3-7, they only gain 1 AS in 5 chapters). If that isn't bad enough for Eddie, he generally always has to take a player phase counter if he doesn't want to chip at something with a pathetic weapon such as a Wind Edge.

I know all of this, you failed to realise i said he be good in P4 not P1 since he is not hitting 3rd tier in P1(but hed be good if he did.)and i am also not saying he's easy to train or close to being a good unit rolf is better, I was using him as an analagy, but most likely a bad one since everyone took as, OMFG eddy is better than rolf, please thats not what i was saying.

Imagine i'm saying this in a calm sothing voice, and i'm being overall calm and stuff. (if thats even posible for me)

[dondon151]

I know all of this, you failed to realise i said he be good in P4 not P1 since he is not hitting 3rd tier in P1(but hed be good if he did.)and i am also not saying he's easy to train or close to being a good unit rolf is better, I was using him as an analagy, but most likely a bad one since everyone took as, OMFG eddy is better than rolf, please thats not what i was saying.

Way to strawman. That is not what I said at all, nor does that resemble what I inferred from your analogy. An analogy is a similarity that allows for a comparison; there is nothing similar between Rolf-T and Eddie at all. You said it yourself, right in that quoted statement above - Eddie is only good in part 4 but is terrible in parts 1 and 3, but Rolf is good starting around mid or early part 3.

Edited June 23, 2010 by dondon151

[Narga_Rocks]

I know all of this, you failed to realise i said he be good in P4 not P1 since he is not hitting 3rd tier in P1(but hed be good if he did.)and i am also not saying he's easy to train or close to being a good unit rolf is better, I was using him as an analagy, but most likely a bad one since everyone took as, OMFG eddy is better than rolf, please thats not what i was saying.

Yeah, I'm not interpreting you as saying Eddy > Rolf. I'm not even interpreting Eddy = Rolf, though I hope you could understand why I might based on your words. But to simply put Ed on the same level as Rolf (T), ie: comparable situations, does not do justice to their situations.

Oh, and I know we are talking about Rolf (T), but it's always funny seeing just "rolf", since we know that Ed > Rolf (N). And Heather >> Rolf (N).

[Florete]

So, all in all i don't think it's the best way, but it's a pretty sticky topic, (and like narga was saying, you'd have to do a weird calculation, so IMO transfers can screw up tiers, thats why i like Non transfer tier more.) Because if your saying rolf(t) does something it is hard to justify it over a non-transfer character who is eligible.

Unless you have a better idea I suggest you go with us on this. I didn't think it sounded right at first either, trust me, but it's the best way to go about it. It isn't perfect, of course, but it's the better of two evils. The way we've got it doesn't affect the no-transfers list but also allows us to see how much transferred units can improve.

[Junkhead]

Now that I remember, 3-5 has a stealable Energy Drop. Just sayin'

[Narga_Rocks]

Now that I remember, 3-5 has a stealable Energy Drop. Just sayin'

It's been mentioned.

[Fenrir]

Way to strawman. That is not what I said at all, nor does that resemble what I inferred from your analogy. An analogy is a similarity that allows for a comparison; there is nothing similar between Rolf-T and Eddie at all. You said it yourself, right in that quoted statement above - Eddie is only good in part 4 but is terrible in parts 1 and 3, but Rolf is good starting around mid or early part 3.

Rolf isn't good immediately, he becomes good mid part 3, most likely when you crown him, and the similarity is that there is better people on the teams but they can pay off well, even rolf with transfer is not as good as shinnon, but it apparently didn't make any sense to anyone, that's why i compared him to aran.

Yeah, I'm not interpreting you as saying Eddy > Rolf. I'm not even interpreting Eddy = Rolf, though I hope you could understand why I might based on your words. But to simply put Ed on the same level as Rolf (T), ie: comparable situations, does not do justice to their situations.

Oh, and I know we are talking about Rolf (T), but it's always funny seeing just "rolf", since we know that Ed > Rolf (N). And Heather >> Rolf (N).

ed is > rolf(n)?

Unless you have a better idea I suggest you go with us on this. I didn't think it sounded right at first either, trust me, but it's the best way to go about it. It isn't perfect, of course, but it's the better of two evils. The way we've got it doesn't affect the no-transfers list but also allows us to see how much transferred units can improve.

yeah, it's the best idea i can think of, the more i think about it the more i realise that it makes sense it seems odd, but i don't know of a better way.

Now that I remember, 3-5 has a stealable Energy Drop. Just sayin'

You just realised this? =p

[nflchamp]

Rolf isn't good immediately, he becomes good mid part 3, most likely when you crown him, and the similarity is that there is better people on the teams but they can pay off well, even rolf with transfer is not as good as shinnon, but it apparently didn't make any sense to anyone, that's why i compared him to aran.

Shinon(N/T - Skl, Spd)

Jill (T - Str, Skl, Spd)

Rafiel

Upper Middle (13) (T-5)

Micaiah

Elincia (N/T - Mag, Skl, Spd)

Black Knight

Tibarn

Naesala

Oscar (T - Str, Skl, Spd)

Nephenee

Laura

Jill

Boyd (T - HP, Str, Spd)

Oscar

Mordecai (N/T)

Ranulf (N/T)

Marcia (T - Str, Skl, Spd)

Aran

Boyd

Mist (T - Mag, Spd)

Rolf (T - Str, Spd)

Saying Rolf(T) < Shinon is something we already know. It doesn't change what Rolf(T) can do.

ed is > rolf(n)?

Lower Middle (16) (T-1)

Geoffrey (N/T - Spd)

Edward

Lucia (N/T)

Volke (N/T - Str, Skl, Spd)

Stefan (N/T - Str, Skl, Spd)

Tormod (N/T)

Rolf

Yes, yes he is.

[RNG Princess]

1-P really favors Edward doesn't it?

[Fenrir]

Shinon(N/T - Skl, Spd)

Jill (T - Str, Skl, Spd)

Rafiel

Upper Middle (13) (T-5)

Micaiah

Elincia (N/T - Mag, Skl, Spd)

Black Knight

Tibarn

Naesala

Oscar (T - Str, Skl, Spd)

Nephenee

Laura

Jill

Boyd (T - HP, Str, Spd)

Oscar

Mordecai (N/T)

Ranulf (N/T)

Marcia (T - Str, Skl, Spd)

Aran

Boyd

Mist (T - Mag, Spd)

Rolf (T - Str, Spd)

Saying Rolf(T) < Shinon is something we already know. It doesn't change what Rolf(T) can do.

Lower Middle (16) (T-1)

Geoffrey (N/T - Spd)

Edward

Lucia (N/T)

Volke (N/T - Str, Skl, Spd)

Stefan (N/T - Str, Skl, Spd)

Tormod (N/T)

Rolf

Yes, yes he is.

i guess eddy has 1-p and 1-1 where he can do something. but i dunno, rolf may deserve higher than ed

1-P really favors Edward doesn't it?

It sure does, and its the only stage that does favor him.

[Narga_Rocks]

Um, any chance we should be doing Jill (T) > Neph (T)? I've never played with either, so I'm not sure. Neph(T) would be pretty helpful in 2-1 and 2-2, but Jill (T) is all kinds of pwn in 1-6 and that might make it even easier to deal with 3-6 and possibly Ike.

Oh, and for those that are missing smash-arguments or the old Interceptor v smash wars: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/932999-fire-emblem-radiant-dawn/55323226/610266915

I'm surprised Interceptor is even posting since I'd thought he'd quit Gamefaqs. But anyway, from that post on.

This one is Aran v Neph with classic 2008/early 2009 smash against 2010 Interceptor this time. I'm serious, smash hasn't changed one bit of his argument in 2 years. You could probably go find an old thread about Aran v Neph and you'd see about the same arguments coming from smash. Only Interceptor has grown and learned.

Edited June 26, 2010 by Narga_Rocks