OMG it's a tier list

[BEST TRYNDAMERE PLAYER]

Is there anything wrong with being able to survive nigh 100% of the time? You exaggerate his ignorance.

If that unit has shitty offense, yes. Having that durability is nice but if your unit can do absolutely little to no damage then it's not worth it.

[Zkirsche]

I made a few points about Mist (T) that were never really countered. Thoughts?

The thing is you have to put him in range of just one enemy (perhaps two), or he's going to end up taking heavy damage. It's not hard to find an enemy to take him into Resolve range, I just question how many hits he might take in the process. I guess you can position your other units to help with this, but that might be hurting efficiency if you're forcing them to check their movement just so Mordy can have decent offense.

You just place him outside other units and simply ensure your otehr units aren't chokeholing him off (which may be considered inefficient anyway).

Besides, if this gets us a ORKO'ing unit who is invincible then I'd argue it's worth the positioning, much like it's best if we give Mia and Ike support, it's better if we get Resolve!Mordecai.

Having that durability is nice

Exactly.

Smash has never, as I recall, argued Lyre (units who 12RKO's) > Mia.

Edited July 11, 2010 by Kirsche

[BEST TRYNDAMERE PLAYER]

Exactly.

Maybe next time you should try quoting the rest of my post because I did say having that durability is nice but not worth having a shitty damage output.

[Zkirsche]

Maybe next time you should try quoting the rest of my post because I did say having that durability is nice but not worth having a shitty damage output.

Maybe next time you should read what I said as I stated that there was nothing wrong with being invincible and maybe next time you can contribute to tier list discussion too.

[BEST TRYNDAMERE PLAYER]

Maybe next time you should read what I said as I stated that there was nothing wrong with being invincible and maybe next time you can contribute to tier list discussion too.

You've made your point thousands of times dude. We're just going in circles now. My point still stands.

[grandjackal]

Shall we quit with the semantics now? There's still science to do, you fools!

Let's see, what were the things of business lately?

-Zihark and Aran's positions being procarious, yet not a yet specified new position for either of them. It seems however that it's agreed that both of them should at least drop by some amount. Where though exactly?

I would say Zihark should be upper mid since he does not share a common trait with high, that being they not only make things easier/go by faster, they start off very well able to, and do not debilitate in performance, perhaps even becoming stronger (such as Shinon due to how much an improvement Marksman is over Sniper). While Zihark's statistically greater than most of the team early on in part 1, he's not helping things go by faster or easier, since those who do that job blow him out of the water. He doesn't save time like Jill's flight with Taur's indestructability, and you already have 2 people to help make things easier in Sothe and Volug, with various DB able to fend for themselves, or Miccy's Thani. There's a sence of redundancy with him without breaking to a level of Flying Taur, or the LEA, or Nailah. He's only got 1-8 truly under his belt, and then there's part 3 where he's quite mediocre.

I would say he should go to upper mid under Micaiah. Obviously his great starting combat can be accounted or for part 1 along with 1-8 something he actually does make things easier than it would be, but I don't think it compares to Miccy Thani bombing troublesome armors (such as the one blocking the exit in 1-3, the ones in 1-6-1 while Taur's off murdering hte left hand side, 1-7 to help break the armor of the team near the north door), able to put good use to Wrathbombing thanks to Sacrifice, or her healing capabilities form part 3 onwards with things like Physic and Fortify, and of course aiding Sothe into performing better. While surely he out-stats her, I feel he out-utilizes him.

As for Aran, the simple matter of the fact is that Eddie was able to aid the team before Aran's appearance. Obviously he is undermined by the existence of Nolan and Sothe, but the same can be said about Aran. I don't even need to say 1-P, try 1-1 without Eddie. I can even make claim that he can help us get Thani in 1-2 which allows Sothe to go for the Energy Drops while Nolan basically takes the right hand side by himself and managing it all within the 6 turns dondon has shown us (and yes, if we send Nolan right instead of Eddie, Nolan can possibly get to level 12 depending on how spoiled he was in 1-1 and if he can get the boss kill in 1-2). Point is, he allows Sothe to be less distracted and thus allows us to get the Energy Drops and possibly a boss kill for Nolan within the 6 turns. 1-3, he can help bust the right hand side door so that Sothe can go in and kill the archer immediately without having to trade out the key or do complicated shoving. He can help with singled-out Wrathcounters, finish things off, chipping the boss with smaller risk than most for Miccy to kill. Even in 1-4, he'd be better than Aran has had been proven countless times before, and can still Wrathcounter singled-out enemies if you choose to keep it on him (and he can at least pay you back for that favor, and you're capable of improving his chances with a critforge).

Now tell me. What does Aran do upon joining other than be somewhat more versatile than Meg? What does he become in the future other than Nolan without the skill/equipment flexibility, Volug's powerhouse full transformation, or the Thani-Beastkiller combo, or even Jill's power in flight-drops such as someone like the Black Knight? I can at least say that Eddie can be the only other person you can slap Wrath AND Resolve and can make his own use out of it thanks to Caladbolg, his significant crit chance due to class. While others are capable of doing what he does, the point is that Eddie's still capable in his own right without exactly being hazardous to turncounts (as I am figuring out in my new playthrough, what with the new faster turncounts coming up from other playthroughs, and his level's not lagging behind himself from my old playthrough now that I thought about how more effective it is to give BEXP to the DB to get them closer to 99 EXP rather than waiting until stats are capped).

-I believe there was mention of Keiran and Geoff returning to Mid, along with MAYBE Eddie.

-OscarT's prospects of reaching to high (unless I missed the change). Regardless, I think I saw Oscar below Boyd, of which I think could change. Oscar's got access to the Silver Greatlance (I know it's inaccurate, but at least it's a great source of power since it's stronger than any forge outside of that) and the Horseslayer, since the Hammers are taken and Boyd's got little to respond with in concerns to Oscar's mobility for the most part.

-I believe someone mentioned BromT.

[Fenrir]

So you're saying Ed > Aran, i agree.

Where does edward go? if he is indeed better than Aran? Also, where does aran go?

[grandjackal]

There was a suggestion that Eddie go to the bottom of Mid with Geoff and Keiran over him (or at least Narga agrees with me here). I would suggest Aran for now drops to the top of Lower Mid, because I don't see how he's even Mid tier, much less Upper Mid.

As long as Aran's not a tier above Eddie, it's cool. I don't quite think Eddie should skyrocket here.

Used to, but my head is far cooler as of late

[Fenrir]

There was a suggestion that Eddie go to the bottom of Mid with Geoff and Keiran over him (or at least Narga agrees with me here). I would suggest Aran for now drops to the top of Lower Mid, because I don't see how he's even Mid tier, much less Upper Mid.

As long as Aran's not a tier above Eddie, it's cool. I don't quite think Eddie should skyrocket here.

Used to, but my head is far cooler as of late

Sounds good to me, I know Ed can go in mid. I did a comparison to him to the other people in bottom of mid tier and he measures up fine.

[Narga_Rocks]

GJ, going back to the Kyza thing: if you want to help him out give him pass in 3-4 and see if you can match dondon's turncount (or beat it) while having Kyza kill a mage in the way. 9 move and only 2 cost for "gaps" might let him be useful for a brief moment.

(And I'm curious about Ike with Celerity and Saviour carrying Mia. It's not as if getting Ike up there quicker with a Celerity Haar drop actually lets you win faster than Ranulf gets there, anyway. The benefit to that is that you perhaps have an extra turn with which to clear out the enemy before Ranulf gets there. Ike can drop Mia at the top and Haar can help out, too. Also, Mia and Ike will get a ton of support points. Not sure Mia with C Ike can live through it, though. Equip a plain Steel Sword for enemy phase?)

[grandjackal]

GJ, going back to the Kyza thing: if you want to help him out give him pass in 3-4 and see if you can match dondon's turncount (or beat it) while having Kyza kill a mage in the way. 9 move and only 2 cost for "gaps" might let him be useful for a brief moment.

I would, but I don't have a save there. I sorta restarted to do more Eddie testing since dondon's run made me reconsider some things. Regardless, I'm glad to discover the results that I did. I feel Eddie's now having a solid reason to be in mid, even if it is bottom of it.

(And I'm curious about Ike with Celerity and Saviour carrying Mia. It's not as if getting Ike up there quicker with a Celerity Haar drop actually lets you win faster than Ranulf gets there, anyway. The benefit to that is that you perhaps have an extra turn with which to clear out the enemy before Ranulf gets there. Ike can drop Mia at the top and Haar can help out, too. Also, Mia and Ike will get a ton of support points. Not sure Mia with C Ike can live through it, though. Equip a plain Steel Sword for enemy phase?)

Can Ike equip both?

[dondon151]

Ike only needs 25 capacity, so yes.

[RNG Princess]

I think I have a save file before 3-4 want me to give it to you Master Tang? I can't judge it because I'm too strict/mean with laguz.

btw dondon's 0% growth playthrough is amazing, I love how he manages to short turn everything considering his characters get almost no growths. You use amazing tactics, but i'm curious does the 0% growths only apply to characters or does it apply to both characters and enemies?

Edited July 12, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[grandjackal]

I think I have a save file before 3-4 want me to give it to you Master Tang? I can't judge it because I'm too strict/mean with laguz.

I don't emulate, I play the actual game.

btw dondon's 0% growth playthrough is amazing, I love how he manages to short turn everything considering his characters get almost no growths. You use amazing tactics, but i'm curious does the 0% growths only apply to characters or does it apply to both characters and enemies?

I doubt there'd be much point in doing the run if enemies never grew either.

[Narga_Rocks]

I don't emulate, I play the actual game.

I thought all you need are SD cards or something then you can get the file onto your wii. Rather similar to a memory card like for the Gamecube. Only you can use a computer to get the file onto your card and you don't have to be able to meet the person irl.

[grandjackal]

I thought all you need are SD cards or something then you can get the file onto your wii. Rather similar to a memory card like for the Gamecube. Only you can use a computer to get the file onto your card and you don't have to be able to meet the person irl.

Problem is, I run a Mac. These things struggle to emulate GBA games, much less transfer save data of a wii game over the internet, then dowload it into a card since most likely all of these things are incompatible with this pathetic piece of plastic.

[_____]

Not going to actually defend Aran here, but considering how Aran vs. Boyd is a pretty damn close comparison, where does that leave Boyd?

[Colonel M]

Conclusion: Mac computer for Bottom Tier IMO.

Not going to actually defend Aran here, but considering how Aran vs. Boyd is a pretty damn close comparison, where does that leave Boyd?

I'm not sure this comparison is that close. They're both somewhat useless on their team and only have periods that are small when they are needed. Then again, if you're not High or Top Tier it's hard to compare you in the first place...

[Interceptor]

Let's not be dissing OS X, kids. Like any modern operating system, it can read SD cards just fine. You just need a reader (either built-in or via USB or whatnot) and an SD card. Even printers are coming with card readers these days, so the problem is outdated hardware.

[Fenrir]

Conclusion: Mac computer for Bottom Tier IMO.

I'm not sure this comparison is that close. They're both somewhat useless on their team and only have periods that are small when they are needed. Then again, if you're not High or Top Tier it's hard to compare you in the first place...

Macs for bottom indeed

Boyd can drop to mid, i think he is better than Aran, his chip damage is actually meaningfull He is about as useful as Mist IMO.

[Interceptor]

I'd put ignoramus fanboys in Bottom tier, personally, though it'd get pretty crowded.

Anyway, I missed the durability imbroglio, since I don't care about arguing on the Interwebs when I'm on vacation. But now that I can once again debate on my employer's time, I wanted to briefly weigh in, since I'm something of an authority on smash's various philosophical positions. With respect to Mordecai/Aran/Mia etc, there were three distinct issues at hand:

- "Everyone two-rounds anyway": this is the standard defense of Mordecai/Aran's mediocre offense. In terms of the GMs, the argument is that Mordecai 2RKOs, and so do a bunch of other people that you have plenty of slots for, so you can just create marriages between people to combine for an effective-ORKO, and thus steamroll through maps. The argument for Mord here is that his DEF is Endgame-worthy, and he has 9MV, so that makes him better than Boyd, who also 2RKOs but can't tank very long and has worse mobility. In terms of the DB, the argument is that Aran 2RKOs, so do a bunch of other people, let's pretend that the other prepromotes don't exist and/or are not used, and now Aran's durability advantage over Eddie/etc is significant.

- "Everyone wants delicious cake": nobody gets any resource ever in a character comparison, because there's always some unit in a niche situation who also "wants" it. If unit A gets something, unit B's army can give it to anyone else. This perversion of opportunity cost is disparagingly referred to as "Soviet Emblem" by its detractors. It is the primary argument against Mia getting anything: everyone wants Ike's earth support, a bunch of people can use Adept to ORKO, other people want Cancel for durability, forges are expensive and other people want money, the DB wants gems for overkill gold, etc. Paradoxically, this hurt the Mordecai argument, since smash never gave him Resolve in any tier argument that I was aware of (since anyone can use Resolve, natch).

- "Jesus unit in Fortified Bunker underneath Mountain never dies": this comes into play for units like Mordecai vs. physicals, Ike with anyone, Oscar with Ike, the hawks vs. anything but a crossbow, Gatrie, etc. It does not apply to Mia. The idea here is nigh-infinite durability is a big advantage for a unit, because of things like unlimited Enemy Phase exposure (for softening units), and the absence of having to maintain any sort of protection for a healer.

I hope that everyone enjoyed this trip down memory lane. Note that I don't endorse any of these positions, I just wanted to make sure that we got the record straight. Hopefully this is the final word on the subject.

Edited July 12, 2010 by Interceptor

[dondon151]

At the very minimum, Boyd is necessary for 3-P and 3-1 because every bit of damage counts in those maps. I can (and did) get away with not using Aran for anything.

Additionally, you need to deploy Boyd in multiple maps to get the 3-E Spirit Dust. It's not that useful, but it's +1 Rescue range on anyone who uses it, so it could be useful on like, Elincia, who has rather poor base mag.

[Interceptor]

I'm not really sold on the utility of getting the Spirit Dust. In addition to the stated benefits, by the way, you can also insta-cap Ulki's MAG, which has some usefulness for BEXP purposes.

Anyway: granted, this is my personal experience and may not resemble an optimal strategy, but I got some use out of Titania and her Pocket Mist (aka, Savior + Rescue) due to +ATK and mirrored DEF. BoydxMist doesn't make either of them good, so I consider it kind of a waste of a good Water.

Edited July 12, 2010 by Interceptor

[Fenrir]

Titan loves a Pocket support, Rhys could also work as a replacement, and since Titan can Struggle with Hit% fire is nice.

With Rhys in play, i don't think Mist is necessary, but it is something that she is nice to have for.

Wasn't it proven also that Boyd ORKO's P4 Armours, this is something he can do, combined with access to hammer, everyone gets cake but really, you have 2 and haar doesn't really need it, might as well go to Titan/Boyd.

[Interceptor]

The only time that Titania really struggles with accuracy is when you're making her use a 60 HIT weapon when the biorhythm setup is neutral-to-unfavorable for her. Most of the rest of the time, she's using a forge that will have +HIT on it, so it's a non-issue. I can see her carrying around Rhys, that support basically builds quickly as well, but Titania is definitely a unit that benefits from a mirrored DEF support. Not even +8 HIT from an A-rank support can fully remove the effects of biorhythm, after all.