OMG it's a tier list

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

EDIT: what just happened

Edited July 14, 2010 by WeaponsofMassConstruction

[Fenrir]

Did, the Jill > Zihark idea die? I would vote Jill.

[dondon151]

It is long overdue for Zihark to drop out of his tier.

[Narga_Rocks]

It is long overdue for Zihark to drop out of his tier.

As far as I was aware, only a few of us actually think he should be upper mid. I thought Red Fox, Cynthia, as well as likely a few others still see him as high. (Though some of the "old guard" don't post much anymore. Kirsche still does sometimes, though)

besides, would you have Micaiah > Zihark, or Z > M?

[grandjackal]

I'd have Miccy over Zihark due to her utilic purposes early on and continues to have.

[Florete]

To be honest, I don't know if I could see Nolan/Jill a full tier above Zihark. Nolan/Jill > Zihark probably works, but by how much is the real question here. And has anyone actually done a thorough look into Zihark(T)? I know it won't likely change his position, but +2 to Str, Skl, and Spd has to help him in some way other than doubling a few more Cats...right?

[grandjackal]

To be honest, I don't know if I could see Nolan/Jill a full tier above Zihark. Nolan/Jill > Zihark probably works, but by how much is the real question here. And has anyone actually done a thorough look into Zihark(T)? I know it won't likely change his position, but +2 to Str, Skl, and Spd has to help him in some way other than doubling a few more Cats...right?

Nope, he doesn't really change much outside of that. Wouldn't put Zihark (T) above Nephenee (T).

As for Nolan and Jill, how could you see them being close to Zihark? Nolan's got earlygame in his pocket, then he has a time when he's in the same boat as Zihark (Not Flying Tauroneo/LEA/Nailah and BK). Nolan proves himself the more worthy one in part 3 with Beastfoe Tarvos. He's even still managing to be decent in Part 4 when Zihark's gotta deal with weaksauce STr while having been crap in part 3.

Jill of course has her flying transport to help make things easier/makes things faster which is an actual contribution to efficiency (such as the Taurbomb, or tactical drops in part 3), something Zihark can't really effect. Then once again, she can still maintain usefulness in part 4.

I'm painting with a broad brush here, but hte arguments here in hte FE10 list have quieted down for quite a good amount of time so my memory's not exactly fresh on this one. I just know that Zihark can't really say he contributes as much, or is more worth the investment.

[Fenrir]

To be honest, I don't know if I could see Nolan/Jill a full tier above Zihark. Nolan/Jill > Zihark probably works, but by how much is the real question here. And has anyone actually done a thorough look into Zihark(T)? I know it won't likely change his position, but +2 to Str, Skl, and Spd has to help him in some way other than doubling a few more Cats...right?

I agree with Dondon, its overdue zihark should drop. on 1-6 there is Tauroneo, 1-7 the LEA, 1-8 LEA + Nailah + Sothe, 1-E BK + Nailah. Zihark is never ever the best unit or even close to the most important unit, on 3-13 Jill often is.

Jill can also be Queen of the desert, Forged hand axes with nice resistence will get the job done on 4-3.

I don't understand how Zihark is better than Jill, there is an arguement that she even wins 1-6, she is droppin Tauroneo near armours and near Laverton, she most likely beats Zihark even here, 1-8 and 1-7 are his only strengths, to bad Muarim and Tormod make him somewhat meaningless, 1-8 Sothe can solo the entire right side, Zihark doesn't do much here. 1-E Jill can win this to, now she is class changed, and can ORKO armors, as well as ignore the gaps. and P3...no arguement needs to be made. all in all, how on earth is Zihark better than Jill?

Also, Zihark was proven on a different topic, (rating topic i think...?) to be pretty much the same with transfer.

Edited July 26, 2010 by Fenrir

[Interceptor]

To be honest, I don't know if I could see Nolan/Jill a full tier above Zihark. Nolan/Jill > Zihark probably works, but by how much is the real question here.

Then try thinking of it this way: Zihark is not a bad unit by any definition, but he has several flaws -- a couple of which are significant -- and is not exceptional in any way. He spends most of his playtime surrounded by units that are better than he is, without any stand-out performances.

Notice how I can plausibly replace Zihark up there with Mordecai, Boyd or Oscar; but I can't say the same thing for Nolan or Jill. This gives some insight into Zihark's accurate tier ranking, I think.

[Florete]

Makes sense. I could argue against some of the points brought up but in the end Zihark near the top of Upper Mid sounds fine to me.

[Narga_Rocks]

I'd like to hear from Cynthia, then. As it stands currently, I'm thinking of dropping him to top of upper mid (people can argue Micaiah > Zihark with more argument-like arguments). With nobody actually coming up with a big argument for Zihark, I feel odd about moving him (only hearing one side).

[-Cynthia-]

I'd be OK with Zihark dropping to the top of Upper Mid, but I wouldn't support him dropping below Micaiah. Zihark beats Micaiah on offense on most units Part 1, Micaiah ties on Cavs and Generals I guess. He's obviously better durability wise, since he's not ORKOd by nearly everything.

Then Part 3. Micaiah's better in 3-6 (healing beats whatever Zihark does), then Zihark's pretty good in 3-12. Micaiah's pretty useless in 3-13 due to having to stay behind the line, so about a tie here.

Then comes Part 4, Micaiah is healbot, Zihark has good durability, somewhat questionable offense, though pretty decent once he promotes (doubles consistently with crit).

Only real advantage I see for Micaiah is 1-P to 1-5, where she's useful, though no Nolan or Sothe. Zihark ORKOing like all the Part 1 enemies is pretty good in comparison to the rest of his team (better than Nolan or no transfer Jill do for the most part).

I'd definitely go with Jill(T)> Zihark. Rafiel's a really tricky comparison, Zihark could go above or below.

Edited July 27, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Naglfar]

I'd have to support Jill > Zihark, Jill(T) > Zihark at the least.

When Zihark and Jill join, Z is statistically better. His bases are far superior to hers, and he has Earth. Zihark doesn't need any help, while Jill's falling a bit short. Jill, on the other hand, has more move, Canto, and is getting more experience per kill (at least for a while). She's the only unit you have in 1-6-1 who doesn't have to wait for the pegs to come down to attack you, has a far better weapon type, etc. I'd like to talk about resources, though.

You have two seraph robes (as of Rafiel's joining), at least one of which Jill is pretty much entitled to. There's an energy drop that not too many units need, but it can be used to fix Jill's minor strength problems. Then there's a dragonshield, which both of them really like. Of course it's better to not need stat-ups than to need them, but the sheer effect they have on Jill is a good reason to assume that she's getting one or two boosters anyway. Another thing I believe Jill has over Zihark is access to 1-2 range forges, meaning Jill can avoid counters without sacrificing hit or atk like Zihark does with Wind Edges.

Just a little food for thought. I can't really come up with anything clever in Zihark's defence because he's such a straightforward unit. I can say for him that his P1 is a lot more stable than Jill's and he has one huge advantage, that being opportunity cost, even though Jill(T) challenges this to an extent. Jill does better later on than Zihark does, but she has to jump through a few hoops first.

Edited July 27, 2010 by Naglfar

[Anouleth]

I'd be OK with Zihark dropping to the top of Upper Mid, but I wouldn't support him dropping below Micaiah. Zihark beats Micaiah on offense on most units Part 1, Micaiah ties on Cavs and Generals I guess. He's obviously better durability wise, since he's not ORKOd by nearly everything.

Then Part 3. Micaiah's better in 3-6 (healing beats whatever Zihark does), then Zihark's pretty good in 3-12. Micaiah's pretty useless in 3-13 due to having to stay behind the line, so about a tie here.

Then comes Part 4, Micaiah is healbot, Zihark has good durability, somewhat questionable offense, though pretty decent once he promotes (doubles consistently with crit).

Only real advantage I see for Micaiah is 1-P to 1-5, where she's useful, though no Nolan or Sothe. Zihark ORKOing like all the Part 1 enemies is pretty good in comparison to the rest of his team (better than Nolan or no transfer Jill do for the most part).

I'd definitely go with Jill(T)> Zihark. Rafiel's a really tricky comparison, Zihark could go above or below.

Well, it's important to consider that Zihark's usefulness in 1-6-2 and 1-7 and 1-E is limited since we have better units hanging around (he's clutch against the 1-8 Banditos though, and 1-7 has more ground to cover.) And his performance in Part 4 is dependent on his level. I can't see him being close to third tier coming out of Part 3.

I think I'd agree with you on Zihark > Micaiah though.

Edited July 28, 2010 by Slowking

[Narga_Rocks]

Now to see if anyone comes on and yells at us for taking Zihark out of High. (I suppose I should state, I moved him to top of upper mid. Congrats, Interceptor, it only took ~2 years.)

Edited July 28, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Junkhead]

Then Part 3. Micaiah's better in 3-6 (healing beats whatever Zihark does), then Zihark's pretty good in 3-12. Micaiah's pretty useless in 3-13 due to having to stay behind the line, so about a tie here.

Then comes Part 4, Micaiah is healbot, Zihark has good durability, somewhat questionable offense, though pretty decent once he promotes (doubles consistently with crit).

Being in the back line isn't bad when you're healing from afar. And if Zihark isn't useful outside of 3-13 then he isn't very useful in 3-13 either, since he's facing laguz 2/3 of the time.

And Micaiah is more of a healbot during Part 3, where your team seems to need it the most. During Part 4 you have more healers. And the DB isn't relying very much on healing since they're on full supports and shine by Part 4.

[Interceptor]

Unfortunately, the diminished need for healing in early Part 4 doesn't really help Micaiah's situation, since healing is basically almost all of what she is good for in the first place. She is locked to tier 2 during the split path phase, Thani is no longer an I Win button, and she's not even a uniquely excellent use of Purge, seeing as how she basically loses every meaningful combat parameter to her sister.

Micaiah is, however, pretty useful in Endgame. She's a strong enough staff user to completely obviate the need for any other healers at all (including for Rescue shenanigans), which allows you to deploy nothing but ass-kickers.

[Ether]

WHY THE FUCK WOULD YOU TAKE ZIHARK OUT OF HIGH NARGA YOU FUCKING MOD POWER ABUSER IF SOMEONE SENSIBLE WAS RUNNING THE LIST THEN NONE OF THIS WOULD HAPPEN BUT IT'S NARGA THE HORNY MOD,INTERCEPTOR THE DOUCHE,AND RFOF THE BISEXUAL WEABOO CHICK! YOU JUST LOWERED HIM BECAUSE HE DOESN'T HAVE TITS YOU SKIRT CHASING PRICKS AND YOU ONLY LIKE THAT OTHER SWORDMASTER BECAUSE OF SOME CUTSCENE WHERE SHE HAD IMPLANTS!ALSO,PENISPENISPENISPENISPENISPENIS.

We seem to be pretty unanimous so far.But then again,Smash was Zihark's biggest defender,IIRC,so who knows what he is doing wherever he is.

[Interceptor]

so who knows what he is doing wherever he is.

smash was last spotted arguing Mia above Ike. His premise was that Mia was a better unit under the circumstance where Ike got SPD-screwed, Titania got SPD-screwed, Haar got SPD-screwed, BEXP only raised the stats with the highest three growths, all of our other stat boosters went to Boyd, that the Brave Sword didn't exist, and I think something about strawberry ice cream. It was kind of a confusing argument.

EDIT: I forgot to make a point. I think that smash would be against Zihark in Upper-Mid, but Neo-smash would argue that it's only natural for Z to be two tiers under Mia, and that he should specifically send his Adept to her.

Edited July 28, 2010 by Interceptor

[Ether]

smash was last spotted arguing Mia above Ike. His premise was that Mia was a better unit under the circumstance where Ike got SPD-screwed, Titania got SPD-screwed, Haar got SPD-screwed, BEXP only raised the stats with the highest three growths, all of our other stat boosters went to Boyd, that the Brave Sword didn't exist, and I think something about strawberry ice cream. It was kind of a confusing argument.

I see. Looks like he finally understands what tiering is all about. Good for him,and I hope that he is able to maintain his new enlightened path.

[Junkhead]

Smash wanted to argue Mia down because of her overrated looks?

[Narga_Rocks]

We seem to be pretty unanimous so far.But then again,Smash was Zihark's biggest defender,IIRC,so who knows what he is doing wherever he is.

Well, I'm pretty sure that Vykan and Paperblade would be shaking their heads at us over this. A few others over at gamefaqs probably, too.

I see. Looks like he finally understands what tiering is all about. Good for him,and I hope that he is able to maintain his new enlightened path.

I hope you are being sarcastic, because I am fairly certain that neo-smash is just smash trying to make pro-Mia people look ridiculous by twisting the arguments. Or he thinks those are the actual arguments. I've never been 100% certain which one it is.

And I'm not sure I've seen smash himself accuse people of only supporting Mia because of her looks. I wouldn't say it's impossible, though, and there is a ton of his stuff that I've never read or have completely forgotten. Maybe he has. But I know that many others on gamefaqs have made that argument about Mia/Nephenee supporters.

[Ether]

'Twas simply a bout of sarcasm,my good man.

And while I don't recall ever seeing him do it himself,I haven't followed his arguments religiously,and given his mentality at times,I wouldn't put it completely past him.

[Kaoz]

Would someone be so kind to explain to me why Reyson is above Haar?

[Fenrir]

Well, I'm pretty sure that Vykan and Paperblade would be shaking their heads at us over this. A few others over at gamefaqs probably, too.

good thing this is SF not gamefaqs...

So...Jill to high? I would support this, anyone agree.

also, Why is Reyson above the mighty haar?(i never even noticed, cause ever time i look at high i see volug and wanna kill myself)