OMG it's a tier list

[dondon151]

Well, I don't think it even assumes perfect play. It does assume that the player knows who's the best recipient for what, and it also assumes bosskills to shorten defense chapters, but not much outside of that.

[RNG Princess]

if you use boyd "fairly" in P3 he will pay off, this is somewhat of a blanket statement about aran, and Boyd loses everything after 3-2? units with greater move, Oscar, Titan and the mighty haar, 3 + lets say, Mia, Shinnon and Neph. This is not enough to fill out a team, so we can use Boyd.

also, Ed > Aran in P1, i know GJ agrees, as well as myself and soul. Ed also wins P4 and if your bringing Nolan and you will have Volug Ed won't be a hassle to use in P3.

You can use Boyd up until the hawks arrive he's not exactly priority, its just up until then his move hinders his progress so he's more useful as shove bot. Aran performs similar in terms of usefulness imo so the gap in between them shouldn't be too much. Its just that you said he sucked for Part 3 and he actually doesn't he has some ok performance at least (similar to Boyd). :)

You also forgot to mention Mist/Rhys, and sometimes Heather and Soren.

Edited July 30, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[dondon151]

I also strongly disagree with the statement "Aran performs equally in terms of usefulness." You're going to need every bit of chip damage you can get from 3-P up through 3-3, and Boyd is helpful there. But the DB doesn't need Aran at all. You can do 1-4 perfectly with Nolan, Ilyana, Micaiah, and Sothe. You can do 1-5 perfectly with Sothe, Nolan, and Volug. And so on.

[Fenrir]

You can use Boyd up until the hawks arrive he's not exactly priority, its just up until then his move hinders his progress so he's more useful as shove bot. Aran performs equally in terms of usefulness imo so the gap in between them shouldn't be too much. Its just that you said he sucked for Part 3 and he actually doesn't he has some ok performance at least (similar to Boyd). :)

You also forgot to mention Mist/Rhys, and sometimes Heather and Soren.

Heather should be used for...3-4 and 3-5 correct? how is aran useful? i think boyd has 3-P and 3-1 to his credit, about as good as brom so no way he goes lower than Brom.

Rhys should be used, is it really necessary to have 2 healers? so now we're at like 8 units + the hawks, on 3-10 thats still not enough, 3-8 is more iirc.

Soren should never be used over boyd unless you want better hit.

[RNG Princess]

I also strongly disagree with the statement "Aran performs equally in terms of usefulness." You're going to need every bit of chip damage you can get from 3-P up through 3-3, and Boyd is helpful there. But the DB doesn't need Aran at all. You can do 1-4 perfectly with Nolan, Ilyana, Micaiah, and Sothe. You can do 1-5 perfectly with Sothe, Nolan, and Volug. And so on.

I don't understand what you're telling me. I happened to do 3-13 and Part 4 without Sothe does this happen to take away his credit? Aran's shoving can come in handy from time to time in part 1 and his performance in Part 3 can come in handy. Doesn't that weigh him back equally or similarly to Boyd's usefulness? (and scratch that statement I made I'll edit it).

Heather should be used for...3-4 and 3-5 correct? how is aran useful? i think boyd has 3-P and 3-1 to his credit, about as good as brom so no way he goes lower than Brom.

Rhys should be used, is it really necessary to have 2 healers? so now we're at like 8 units + the hawks, on 3-10 thats still not enough, 3-8 is more iirc.

Soren should never be used over boyd unless you want better hit.

Aran has his uses like I mentioned before.

I'm not saying Boyd should go below Brom I just think Boyd being 1 tier/several gaps over Aran doesn't make sense. You're probably right though Boyd's shoving is probably handy for 3-4 and he can block ledges in 3-5.

Edited July 30, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Fenrir]

I don't understand what you're telling me. I happened to do 3-13 and Part 4 without Sothe does this happen to take away his credit? Aran's shoving can come in handy from time to time in part 1 and his performance in Part 3 can come in handy. Doesn't that weigh him back equally or similarly to Boyd's usefulness? (and scratch that statement I made I'll edit it).

no, this simply does not add, characters do not lose, only gain credit.

Kirsche's lyre shoving arguement didn't really work so....

a character that "comes in handy" is really not worth all the effort and resources it takes to get him there, Boyd in P4 with the 3-9 speedwing is a rape machine.(forged hand axes )

[RNG Princess]

no, this simply does not add, characters do not lose, only gain credit.

Kirsche's lyre shoving arguement didn't really work so....

a character that "comes in handy" is really not worth all the effort and resources it takes to get him there, Boyd in P4 with the 3-9 speedwing is a rape machine.(forged hand axes )

I never said Aran needed resources though :P I said he can be useful helping with a support and shoving plus combat.

Theres a difference between Lyre shoving and Part 1 characters shoving.

Part 1 characters don't compete for spots up until 1-7, his shoving can be useful before that.

I prefer to give that speedwing to Marcia or Tanith than Boyd.

Edited July 30, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Junkhead]

I don't understand what you're telling me. I happened to do 3-13 and Part 4 without Sothe does this happen to take away his credit? Aran's shoving can come in handy from time to time in part 1 and his performance in Part 3 can come in handy. Doesn't that weigh him back equally or similarly to Boyd's usefulness? (and scratch that statement I made I'll edit it).

@Bolded: You can do 3-13 without Sothe, Aran or Edward, for that matter. It's not like they contribute much here, which is why I really wonder what good arguement is there behind Aran's placement.

@Underline: Only in 1-4. I don't think it comes much in handy later.

[RNG Princess]

@Bolded: You can do 3-13 without Sothe, Aran or Edward, for that matter. It's not like they contribute much here, which is why I really wonder what good arguement is there behind Aran's placement.

@Underline: Only in 1-4. I don't think it comes much in handy later.

Shoving is certainly helpful for 1-6-1 and maybe 1-7 that way Sothe with forged knives can reach places faster and Meg + Aran shoving him improves the move. I think Meg can shove him, I don't remember :(.

and I found him shoving in 1-3 helpful too.

Edited July 30, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[dondon151]

First, I never said anything about Sothe in parts 3 or 4. Second, I don't think we should give units credit for universal tasks such as shoving. Eddie, Leo, Aran, and Meg are all equally (or almost equally) useless in 1-6; any one of them can shove Sothe to improve his mobility.

[Junkhead]

Shoving is certainly helpful for 1-6-1 and maybe 1-7 that way Sothe with forged knives can reach places faster and Meg + Aran shoving him improves the move. I think Meg can shove him, I don't remember :(.

and I found him shoving in 1-3 helpful too.

I thought it was easier to let Zihark and Volug take all the kills. With both of them onerounding enemies not-Armour Knights, it's pretty fast.

[RNG Princess]

I thought it was easier to let Zihark and Volug take all the kills. With both of them onerounding enemies not-Armour Knights, it's pretty fast.

Well he can shove Zihark then :)

@DonDon Why shouldn't shoving be given credit? Its something small but it helps and I kind of see what you're trying to say. Boyd's contributions are more helpful than Aran's, right?

Oh I'm horrible at defending characters outside of Low or Bottom tier .

Edited July 30, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Junkhead]

I think that's because it's gross utility. It hardly helps out. Edward & Leo can at least be forming supports they'll find useful during Part 4 because of their better performance. Aran has the problem that his supports will be sorta useless when his best option is Laura, a character that doesn't improve if given supports.

And I'll usually be placing Zihark at the front, which lets him get his first kill on the first turn while Volug is placed next to him.

[Anouleth]

no of course, aran sucks. Some people however are under the impression he "shines in P3" by shining instead of looking like a pile of shit, he now looks more like a pile of scrotums, at least some strange strange women might find this better.

Slowking, lets take a look at average stats before making up are own. 25.4 when he class changes, and if he lands on the good side of this that 28spd with a wing.

Well, congratulations, you are correct that if Boyd gets lucky, he does indeed reach 28AS, but I don't feel that a competent player cwould use the speedwing just so Boyd has a chance to double with no guarantees.

I never said Aran needed resources though :P I said he can be useful helping with a support and shoving plus combat.

Theres a difference between Lyre shoving and Part 1 characters shoving.

Part 1 characters don't compete for spots up until 1-7, his shoving can be useful before that.

I prefer to give that speedwing to Marcia or Tanith than Boyd.

I find that Marcia never has speed issues, and that Tanith can largely get by with Secret Book/Dracoshield + BEXP, but she's still not particularly fast if she ends up on the low side of 27.6SPD. I guess that if she's on Silver Army (no-brainer) she still doubles everything, but she runs into issues in 4-3.

[dondon151]

Who is assumed to be the best recipient of the 3-9 Speedwings? I think it's mostly just Ike, but if Ike is above his spd average (i.e. BEXP slowplay and whatnot), Skrimir would be a good recipient, as it mostly ensures him doubling all warriors and higher end paladins in 4-P and doubling most of the map in 4-3 (with a spd proc, he gets all but SMs). And moreover, he has an astounding 54 base atk, which 2HKOs all but 1 sword general in 4-3, in addition to excellent laguz gauge, which allows him to take on 6 enemies per turn for a 0 net loss in gauge after Olivi Grass.

[Anouleth]

Skrimir has his own Resolve, and I don't see any reason he shouldn't make use of it.

[dondon151]

Well, the problem with trying to manipulate Resolve is two-fold. Granted, it works well for laguz like Mordecai who have no doubling options outside of it, but it's far more convenient to give Skrimir a Speedwings just so he can rape face.

The problem is threefold:

1. Getting Skrimir into Resolve range requires at least 34 atk. Now, there are a lot of enemies in 4-P who don't have 34 atk. If Skrimir ends up with 34 or 36 HP, well then, you kind of out of luck. Hope that Skrimir gets hit a couple of times after he transforms by enemies who have more than 32 atk.

2. Getting Skrimir into Resolve range is necessarily inefficient on turn 1. You have to put him in the range of only one enemy that can deal sufficient damage, which generally involves suboptimal placement of either Skrimir (he has to stay further behind) or other units (they have to block all but 1 tile that Skrimir can be attacked from). Furthermore, Skrimir won't KO the enemy that attacks him, so the player needs to have stragglers stay behind.

3. Skrimir's 18 res is decent, but he's still vulnerable to magic. Especially since there's a smattering of fire mages in 4-3. Also, having 33 HP as your effective maximum limits player phase options. You can't Physic him because you're likely to heal him out of Resolve range, so you resort to Herbs and Vulneraries to keep him within the HP range, which compete with Olivi Grass use.

You might not think these problems are bothersome, but I can assure you that, like with Mordecai, the turn 1 requisites greatly limit the extent to which Resolve can actually function as a replacement for innate AS. If you wanted to have laguz use Olivi Grass turn 1, you would keep them away from enemies while your beorc set the pace.

[Interceptor]

And he hates tiering healers and thieves for the same reasons.

And yet somehow, July was the month of me defending Mist in both FE9 and FE10.

But I'm not likely to move Aran without moving Boyd down as well. From the Aran down crowd, what arguments can you make for why Boyd can stay in upper mid but Aran can't?

Argument makes no sense to me. Who cares if Boyd doesn't double? He 2HKOs, with crit if you give him a forge and abuse his Bonds. His durability is fair. There is a use for his kind of performance.

Well, the problem with trying to manipulate Resolve is two-fold. Granted, it works well for laguz like Mordecai who have no doubling options outside of it, but it's far more convenient to give Skrimir a Speedwings just so he can rape face.

All of those are legitimate criticisms of making use of Skrimir's Resolve. Also in addition to those, you can't give Resolve to someone else if Skrimir uses it, which I'm sure has a least some effect. But on the other hand, if you can put up with the downsides, you gain the ability to give the Speedwings to anyone else.

A badly SPD-screwed Ike is one possibility, although personally I find this to be a lot less likely than people suggest (given BEXP, Blossom, and all of Part 3 locked in tier 2).

I'd also throw Haar in there: with the 2-3 Speedwing and tier 2 BEXP, he's almost sure to show up with 26 AS by 20/20/1. This is what Skrimir has at base, so base Haar would double the same failadins that Skrimir does, while capturing the same additional enemies as he would with the Wings (fast Paladins, Warriors, and both would still miss Swordmasters). Come 4-3, double-Wing'ed Haar has at least 28 AS (and very likely more, since he's getting tons of CEXP at this point), and if he's procced SPD somewhere in 4-P (much more likely than Skrimir), 29 AS gets him things that he wouldn't normally double. Haar has a huge advantage for applying his offense in the form of flight, Canto, 1-2 range (forged Hand Axes basically ORKO everything he doubles except, like, Generals and Dragonmasters), and lack of gauge (even as good as Skrimir's is). He's not much less durable than Skrimir against physical enemies, either. Without the second Speedwing, Haar is not doing as much in 4-3, he's going to miss or be borderline against almost everything. Also, Endgame: Haar needs 31+ AS to consistently double Generals, whom he cannot OHKO with the Hammer. The 3-9 Speedwing makes this feat at least plausible. Granted, Skrimir is good against Generals as well if he gets the Speedwing, procs SPD, and procs STR (I think that SS Strike is out of the question).

Titania is also decent for the 3-9 Wing. She should have 27 AS by 20/20/1 if you Did It Right, but she needs 28-29 by 4-1 and 30-31+ by 4-4 if you want her to double a decent number of likely targets, and a second Speedwing puts her there almost for sure. Although, admittedly it's possible that with her SPD growth and relatively early promotion, she may not need it.

That's about it, everyone else is terrible. I basically consider it to be for people who get SPD-screwed, past that.

EDIT: I'd like to add that Skrimir is CEXP'ing like a 20/20/10 beorc, and needs to hit a 25% growth at least once in order to have 32 AS with the Wing. BEXP is zero help here. This is a bit different from Haar, who does have a crap growth (30% SPD) and needs more SPD procs than Skrimir, but levels faster, with more runway room, and theoretically can BEXP (maybe).

Edited July 30, 2010 by Interceptor

[dondon151]

I'd also throw Haar in there: with the 2-3 Speedwing and tier 2 BEXP, he's almost sure to show up with 26 AS by 20/20/1. This is what Skrimir has at base, so base Haar would double the same failadins that Skrimir does, while capturing the same additional enemies as he would with the Wings (fast Paladins, Warriors, and both would still miss Swordmasters).

Haar, with 31 str, is an OHKO on all of the paladins on this map with Horseslayer. He also 2HKOs 18 def warriors and SMs with Brave Axe.

I don't really have an argument against giving the second Speedwings to Haar, since the benefits are clearly solid. But even 29 AS in 4-3 only doubles 25 AS halbs, a 25 AS sniper, and generals and mages, whereas 30 AS doubles all halbs, almost all warriors, and almost all snipers. Of course, the counterargument to this would be that Haar doesn't have to promote at 20/20 and can easily be something like 20/--/4 by the beginning of part 4.

[Interceptor]

Fair point about the Horseslayer. Haar will certainly have the STR for it, you just got a fresh slayer in 3-11, he only needs it for the 23 AS mounts, and the game is running out of enemy Paladins anyway. Regarding the Brave Axe, I guess that's alright as long as the the HIT rate behaves, since Warriors have mid-60's avoid and Haar gets no help from authority stars. I'd consider 31 STR to be on the low side for him, anyway. Swordmasters are moot, since Skrimir doesn't double them even with a Speedwing.

About Haar's level, I'd say he's definitely high on the list for the 3-4 crown, so he can show up in Part 4 with a head start on tier 3. I managed to get my Haar to level 6.24 in tier 3 by the end of 3-Endgame. I did get lucky with a BEXP'ed level in tier 2, and was able to promote him at 16, and also could have done Part 3 a bit faster, but even still. In 4-P, you have a judgment call to make: are Haar's stats good enough to hit him with the Speedwing and get one last gasp of performance out of him?

I think that there is enough uncertainty in terms of Haar, Titania, and Ike that it's hard to say that Skrimir is the best use for the 3-9 Speedwing, because the best choice will always be situational (in contrast to the the 1-E and 2-3 Wings). In terms of his tier position though, I think it's fair to consider the significant possibility that Skrimir with 30 AS would be the most efficient way to play him in a given run.

[Anouleth]

There is no 3-4 Crown, you're thinking of the 3-3 Crown (I know it's pedantic and your overall point is correct and you're probably thinking of the 3-3 Crown anyway, it just annoys me). Also, while 31AS is par to double all the 4-E-1 Generals, there are plenty with 25 and 26AS that Speedwinged Skrimir gets easily. And he only needs to proc strength twice to ORKO reliably, iirc, and even if he only procs one, he can get a C support for +1mt.

But back to the original point, which was Boyd's chance of getting the 3-9 Wing, I think it's pretty unlikely with Skrimir and Haar and any potentially spd-screwed doods.

Edited July 30, 2010 by Slowking

[Fenrir]

I never said Aran needed resources though :P I said he can be useful helping with a support and shoving plus combat.

Theres a difference between Lyre shoving and Part 1 characters shoving.

Part 1 characters don't compete for spots up until 1-7, his shoving can be useful before that.

I prefer to give that speedwing to Marcia or Tanith than Boyd.

you may have never said, but it is indeed true.

see below post about shoving.

Why? marcia? and tanith has durability problems, the silver army route has many bows and crossbows, i think it better to put the dracoknights along with naesala on this team

First, I never said anything about Sothe in parts 3 or 4. Second, I don't think we should give units credit for universal tasks such as shoving. Eddie, Leo, Aran, and Meg are all equally (or almost equally) useless in 1-6; any one of them can shove Sothe to improve his mobility.

I completely agree that shoving should not apply to tiering characters

But back to the original point, which was Boyd's chance of getting the 3-9 Wing, I think it's pretty unlikely with Skrimir and Haar and any potentially spd-screwed doods.

(a somewhat general reply to all the skrimir BS)

Why does Skrimir need this? we can put the dracoknights, hell even Marcia on the Silver army without wasting a wing, A crowned Sigrun could do damage as well. Boyd gives you a true Titanic character that ORKO's everything on the greil/hawk army, Skrimir does the same except with no 2range combat, as well as a laguz gauge.

Also, if both the dracoknights can be trained the Silver army is heaven for them, their movement is put to good use, as well as 2range, and better yet no thunder mages in sight.

Speed screwed characters, aside from a 25 AS ike(instant fix for never seeing this, slowplay bexp) i don't see a reason to give this to someone besides Boyd. Haar can deal with it, he needs 28 for desert and should be level 10 by then, if he hasn't gotten any speed i hope he has 1-2 of his major growths(str skill def) capped, bexp can get him a level since it is unreal to think he gets none his first 10 levels.

[Junkhead]

I still hold this idea:

I really think Aran's position should be switched with Tauroneo's.

[Narga_Rocks]

And yet somehow, July was the month of me defending Mist in both FE9 and FE10.

Yeah, that was amusing. You let yourself get sucked into that one. However, you focused mostly on her potential for combat and her advantages in healing over the other healers. I suspect that made it bearable enough for you to be willing to jump in.

Argument makes no sense to me. Who cares if Boyd doesn't double? He 2HKOs, with crit if you give him a forge and abuse his Bonds. His durability is fair. There is a use for his kind of performance.

I didn't talk about his lack of doubling. Am I to assume, then, that adequate durability with ~20 to ~30 % chance of killing and never being any better than that is enough for upper mid? I suppose he has more availability than guys like Geoffrey and Kieran and Skrimir, and he also has better offence (and more bond options) than guys like Brom, but is that enough in your mind for him to be upper mid?

I have no trouble putting Mr. Mediocre into mid. I don't think he deserves lower mid like GJ says, though it is possible I suppose. But if I'm going to punish Aran for long-term mediocrity, how is what Boyd does so much better? I'm not actually suggesting that they be a matched pair. Boyd and Aran don't need to be adjacent on the list. Aran could be near Skrimir while Boyd hovers around Mist or something.

As for Resolve Skrimir, the other problem is that 32 def isn't actually all that good for 4-3. Even 34 (if he gets a level or two and procs def) is kinda bad. 32 is not even sufficient for 4-P (some enemies have high 30s attack), but depending on where he goes you could probably get by with just that much. Mordy had 32 def in part 3 where nearly everything was under 35 attack. Mordy can get to 38 def for part 4, 39 or 40 with a support, making him a better unit for resolve (aside from gauge, of course, and I'm assuming enough str procs and S rank weapon so that he can actually ORKO the paladins in 4-P).

[Interceptor]

There is no 3-4 Crown, you're thinking of the 3-3 Crown (I know it's pedantic and your overall point is correct and you're probably thinking of the 3-3 Crown anyway, it just annoys me).

Also, while 31AS is par to double all the 4-E-1 Generals, there are plenty with 25 and 26AS that Speedwinged Skrimir gets easily. And he only needs to proc strength twice to ORKO reliably, iirc, and even if he only procs one, he can get a C support for +1mt.

All fair enough, but given the performance differences between them here, if they are tie-gaming in offense with a Wing, then Skrimir is doing less with it overall. He still loses a Player Phase instantly, lacks 1-2 range, can't fly or Canto, etc. It seems like a rough comparison for him, especially if you're saying he needs to get +2 base STR or be near a +mt support partner with +1 STR.

I didn't talk about his lack of doubling.

I worded my reply poorly; I was responding to the general argument rather than your specific statement, since I didn't feel like quoting everything else.

Am I to assume, then, that adequate durability with ~20 to ~30 % chance of killing and never being any better than that is enough for upper mid? I suppose he has more availability than guys like Geoffrey and Kieran and Skrimir, and he also has better offence (and more bond options) than guys like Brom, but is that enough in your mind for him to be upper mid?

It seems to me like Boyd basically defines Upper Mid. He doesn't have a lot of prospects, but I have a hard time finding people underneath him that are worse. His MV is decent, he can take a couple hits, he 2RKOs for other people, and he's around for a while. The only way for units like MArcias or Brom to even compete with him is to look at their forced chapters.

I guess that I would be OK with him being the king of Mid tier, but he's already almost there to begin with (two transfers and a tier gap).