OMG it's a tier list

[Narga_Rocks]

I worded my reply poorly; I was responding to the general argument rather than your specific statement, since I didn't feel like quoting everything else.

makes sense

It seems to me like Boyd basically defines Upper Mid. He doesn't have a lot of prospects, but I have a hard time finding people underneath him that are worse. His MV is decent, he can take a couple hits, he 2RKOs for other people, and he's around for a while. The only way for units like MArcias or Brom to even compete with him is to look at their forced chapters.

I'm going to treat that like you said "better". Yeah, you'd have to start assuming that Boyd is a negative or something in order for Marcia and Brom to win with their forced chapters, given their performances later on. I wouldn't put Marcia/Brom > him, but in the same tier I'm not sure is wrong.

I guess that I would be OK with him being the king of Mid tier, but he's already almost there to begin with (two transfers and a tier gap).

At least he'll be king of something rather than bottom of something. I'm not devoted to the idea of dropping him, I'm just not sure how much I should be valuing what he gives us in part 3. Also, he has his 3-P, 3-1, 3-2, 3-5 to compete with the forced part 2 maps of Marcia/Brom, so it isn't necessarily an instant loss if we go to extremes.

Edited July 30, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Fenrir]

It seems to me like Boyd basically defines Upper Mid. He doesn't have a lot of prospects, but I have a hard time finding people underneath him that are worse. His MV is decent, he can take a couple hits, he 2RKOs for other people, and he's around for a while. The only way for units like MArcias or Brom to even compete with him is to look at their forced chapters.

I guess that I would be OK with him being the king of Mid tier, but he's already almost there to begin with (two transfers and a tier gap).

This makes a lot of sense to me, maybe its my bias but Aran defines mid/lower mid, one or two good maps, and nothing else problem is that his maps aren't OUTSTANDING like Geoffrey's are, and he takes time to get there.

[grandjackal]

I'm going to treat that like you said "better". Yeah, you'd have to start assuming that Boyd is a negative or something in order for Marcia and Brom to win with their forced chapters, given their performances later on. I wouldn't put Marcia/Brom > him, but in the same tier I'm not sure is wrong.

Eh, I could see Boyd near the top of Mid, if only because there's no one that shows up immediately that just replaces him. He's sort of just there doing what he can till the hawks show up.

At least he'll be king of something rather than bottom of something. I'm not devoted to the idea of dropping him, I'm just not sure how much I should be valuing what he gives us in part 3. Also, he has his 3-P, 3-1, 3-2, 3-5 to compete with the forced part 2 maps of Marcia/Brom, so it isn't necessarily an instant loss if we go to extremes.

That's the thing though, what importance do Marcia and Brom have in their chapters? I would bring up the part 2 Wing, but I recall getting busted on giving credit for Marcia on that a long while ago. Brom's utility though is basically letting Neph get kill exp while keeping her safe from any real harm. I suppose Boyd's doing hte same though, but again it feels a bit too minimal for Upper Mid.

[Narga_Rocks]

That's the thing though, what importance do Marcia and Brom have in their chapters? I would bring up the part 2 Wing, but I recall getting busted on giving credit for Marcia on that a long while ago. Brom's utility though is basically letting Neph get kill exp while keeping her safe from any real harm. I suppose Boyd's doing hte same though, but again it feels a bit too minimal for Upper Mid.

I seem to have lost sight of your point somewhere along the way in that post.

What are you saying about Boyd's position?

As for Marcia/Brom, I was never asking for them > Boyd. I easily see Boyd > them. The question is about whether or not it is a tier's worth. Boyd is a lot more useful in part 3 than Brom, granted, but is what Boyd is giving us worth all that much is the question. Also, Brom's feeding kills to Neph or whatever you have him do in 2-1 and 2-2 is comparable to Boyd's free chapters and hence if we aren't thinking too much about Boyd's non-free chapters then the same tier is pretty easily seen.

[grandjackal]

I seem to have lost sight of your point somewhere along the way in that post.

What are you saying about Boyd's position?

Whas sort of trying to rationalize why Boyd wouldn't be lower in my head with the new information given, so I just figured he would be like Brom except he can serve more characters than just Neph, and is useful for a somewhat longer time.

I still don't see how Aran compares to it though.

As for Marcia/Brom, I was never asking for them > Boyd. I easily see Boyd > them. The question is about whether or not it is a tier's worth. Boyd is a lot more useful in part 3 than Brom, granted, but is what Boyd is giving us worth all that much is the question. Also, Brom's feeding kills to Neph or whatever you have him do in 2-1 and 2-2 is comparable to Boyd's free chapters and hence if we aren't thinking too much about Boyd's non-free chapters then the same tier is pretty easily seen.

I know, it was more just rationalizing aloud. Pardon me on that.

[Narga_Rocks]

Whas sort of trying to rationalize why Boyd wouldn't be lower in my head with the new information given, so I just figured he would be like Brom except he can serve more characters than just Neph, and is useful for a somewhat longer time.

I still don't see how Aran compares to it though.

Never suggested he did. I stated earlier he could hover around Skrimir or something for all I care.

[Anouleth]

@Interceptor

Point taken about Haar/Skrimir, but depending on Haar's level and his luck with his speed, he might not even need a second wing. I mean, I managed to get him about 8 levels in 4-P, and iirc you got him quite a chunk of EXP yourself.

(a somewhat general reply to all the skrimir BS)

Why does Skrimir need this? we can put the dracoknights, hell even Marcia on the Silver army without wasting a wing, A crowned Sigrun could do damage as well. Boyd gives you a true Titanic character that ORKO's everything on the greil/hawk army, Skrimir does the same except with no 2range combat, as well as a laguz gauge.

Also, if both the dracoknights can be trained the Silver army is heaven for them, their movement is put to good use, as well as 2range, and better yet no thunder mages in sight.

Speed screwed characters, aside from a 25 AS ike(instant fix for never seeing this, slowplay bexp) i don't see a reason to give this to someone besides Boyd. Haar can deal with it, he needs 28 for desert and should be level 10 by then, if he hasn't gotten any speed i hope he has 1-2 of his major growths(str skill def) capped, bexp can get him a level since it is unreal to think he gets none his first 10 levels.

What? For a start, we're not guaranteed to be using Jill, nor is she guaranteed to be third tier, so Skrimir is very useful, except that he's iffy on doubling, and even with Jill an extra hand paw in the Routs is much appreciated. 26->30 AS is what he's doing with the Wing, to Tanith's 26/27->28/29 and Boyd's 25/26->27/28.

Secondly, even if Boyd is lucky or has a slightly higher level and pulls 28AS, he doesn't ORKO everything. Many 4-1 Warriors are out of his reach, as is every Swordmaster in¨Part 4. He doesn't 2HKO Generals either without Hammertime.

[Fenrir]

ah sorry, everything but the SMs.

[Naglfar]

I don't know if I could see Boyd at the top of Mid, but I wouldn't rule it out. He could crit nicely with good Bond usage but with the likes of Titania and Gatrie around I doubt he's entitled to the Killer Axe. Outside of that, resource-dumps notwithstanding, he can be relied on to not die too quickly and bring enemies' HP down to "kill him, Mist" ranges (well, maybe that's an exaggeration, but you get the idea) consistently despite never doubling. He'll want a speedwing, or maybe even two, if you want to use him in the long run, but if not he still serves well as a support unit, and isn't bad at feeding kills to the units you do plan to use. Brom is like this, only his damage output and endgame potential aren't as good. At least Boyd has some hope of doubling under the right circumstances.

I would much sooner bench Brom than Boyd. Boyd having some potential beyond his forced chapters while Brom's not really going anywhere sounds like it's worth a tier gap to me.

[Fenrir]

Was not there an arguement for Gatrie to go down in the tier list? i remember top of upper-mid.

I endorse this move, as well as jill going to high, edddy going to midsoon he shall be in upper-mid :D and kieran/geoff/maurim/tormod in mid. And aran going to lower mid

[Narga_Rocks]

Was not there an arguement for Gatrie to go down in the tier list? i remember top of upper-mid.

I endorse this move, as well as jill going to high, edddy going to midsoon he shall be in upper-mid :D and kieran/geoff/maurim/tormod in mid. And aran going to lower mid

6 move and hard to shove is annoying, sure, but ORKOing when everyone else doesn't along with never dying doesn't seem like the stuff of upper mid. Maybe he could go down lower in high tier, like below Nolan or something, but really he's not as bad as some seem to think.

[dondon151]

6 move and hard to shove is annoying, sure, but ORKOing when everyone else doesn't along with never dying doesn't seem like the stuff of upper mid. Maybe he could go down lower in high tier, like below Nolan or something, but really he's not as bad as some seem to think.

More like "effectively impossible to shove." The only 2 units in part 3 who can shove Gatrie and transformed Mordecai and transformed Kyza. Now, Mordecai has Smite, but how likely are you going to field these 2 units just to shove Gatrie around? You're basically fielding 1 unit for the price of 3 (or a bit less considering that Mordecai has other uses). Not to mention that Gatrie gains 3 WT when he promotes to marshall due to class bases, and Kyza can no longer shove him then.

Also, hilariously enough, hawks, ravens, and seraph knights can't even carry Gatrie. You're either going to have to stay grounded with Titania and Oscar (but then you'd be gimping Titania of potential combat) or fly with Haar, but Haar prefers carrying Ike around a lot more. Except for on 3-3.

Anyway, last night I told CM on IRC that I want to push forward 4 changes to the tier list (and in the meantime, I thought of another one). They are:

Haar above Ike (N)

Sothe into top tier

Reyson down to high tier

Titania (N) above Mia (N), Titania (T) above Mia (T)

Fiona above Meg (yes, seriously)

Even if you don't necessarily agree with these assertions, you should be able to immediately identify the logic behind them. Which is good, because this means that the assertions make sense in the first place. Let me go into detail about them one by one:

Haar above Ike (N)

They have the same amount of maps. Arguably, Ike does comparatively better in 3-P and 3-1 than Haar does in 2-P and 2-E, because no one cares about 2-P and Elincia shares partial credit for a 3-turn clear (but you'll need Haar if you want the Energy Drop). From there, Haar is basically superior for the entirety of part 3.

3-2: Haar and Shinon have a 58.9% chance of 2-turning the map (Shinon needs Adept, a +5 MT, + 15 crit Steel Bow forge, and good bio), and a 100% chance of 3-turning the map.

3-3: Haar gets to the supplies in the back and the Master Crown tent before anyone else does.

3-4: Haar carries Ike to the top platform.

3-5: Haar, Heather, Oscar, and Titania are nearly guaranteed to 2-turn the map while grabbing the Energy Drop, barring any misses.

3-7: No one cares.

3-8: Ike has better offense here, but Haar has Hammer on generals and possibly Brave Lance on everything else (he still doesn't ORKO with Brave Lance barring lots of str procs).

3-10: Ike still has better offense, but Haar has flying, canto, and possibly Savior.

3-11: Haar has Celerity and Savior and carries Ike to the seize.

3-E: No one cares.

As for part 4, Haar does pretty well in 4-P and 4-3 due to Horseslayer and flying, respectively. Ike is also great in his part 4 maps. Haar probably won't grab a 4-E deployment slot (but that's not to say that he can't), but does Ike's superior 4-E really trump all of these part 3 wins that Haar has? In fact, it's plausible that Haar even deserves to top Ike (T), because a large part of this argument ignores combat prowess because in this comparison, it's fairly trivial.

Sothe into top tier

I know that most people would even oppose Sothe going up to top tier in the first place, as earlygame utility is not generally something that puts a Jagen archetype into top tier. Whatever the case, I firmly believe that Sothe is deserving of a spot at the top of the list, because I've encountered very few units that compete or surpass him in terms of dominating the game. This is a tough argument to make, because I can't put Sothe above anyone, but a comparison to Volug should do the most justice.

1-2 to 1-4: Sothe is automatic here, but he's also incredibly important for fast, efficient clears of these chapters.

1-5: As far as defense chapters go, I actually find this to be a little difficult. Volug and Sothe both have superior movement, but there is a ton of 2-range on this map that Volug can't do anything against except chew out one at a time. Sothe can also steal a Master Seal and a Shine Barrier, for what it's worth.

1-6-1: Even more 2-range. Sothe dominates this map, easily.

1-6-2: Volug gets more credit for running up the bridge, but I think that Jill and Tauroneo can clear this map in 2 turns, easily.

1-7: Volug with Savior can rescue Micaiah and bring her to the seize tile. Sothe is busy recruiting Tormod, so he actually does very little.

1-8: Sothe has the entire right 1/3 of the map to deal with by himself. Volug doesn't even do well against the bandits.

1-E: Volug has no movement penalties and crosses gaps easily, and he's great at clearing out enemies blocking gaps with Pass and shove. Sothe actually can't reach the top chests safely in 6 turns, so he pretty much gets nothing here.

Volug wins all part 3 and part 4 maps. If every chapter is weighted equally, they're about even, but Volug has Nolan and Jill to help him out in part 3 and anyone else to help him out in part 4 whereas Sothe has no competition until 1-5. He also finds you at least 3 Master Seals and 1 Arms Scroll, plus Beastfoe, and then a good majority of the 4-3 desert items.

Reyson down to high tier

Dancer units are a pain in the ass to tier, and no one likes to deal with them. But simply consider that Reyson only has 5 part 3 maps, 2 of which are nearly trivial (3-7 and 3-E). I simply don't understand how he can contribute as much as any of the current top tier units or Sothe in that short time frame.

Titanias above Mias

At least this comparison is easy to make, since they're on the same team. As for a combat comparison in a nutshell, Mia relies on impressive proc rates to secure KOs on enemies while Titania just secures clean KOs on enemies.

3-P and 3-1: Titania is mounted and has Killer Axe; Mia has Wo Dao and Adept. I'd argue that Titania sees more enemy phase, but Mia has the higher kill percentage. I can't really say much here because you'll need all that you can get to clear 3-P and 3-1 quickly.

3-2: Titania, along with Haar and Shinon, facilitate the 2 or 3 turn clear, while Mia is like Ike here.

3-3: Titania OHKOs generals with Hammer at base, has higher move, and has access to Pass to more quickly reach the supplies up the left side.

3-4: Titania has greater move to clear out enemies up the left side, but is constrained to the flat ground. Not that it's significant; it's not like anyone is getting up to the top platform as quickly as Ranulf, Haar, or Ike.

3-5: Titania needs +1 or +2 spd on base to double enemy paladins and is necessary to 2 turn clear while grabbing the Energy Drop.

3-7: No one cares.

3-8: Titania needs +2 str on base to OHKO enemy generals and has canto.

3-10: By now, Titania needs +2 str on base and a promotion to OHKO enemy generals, but she also has no movement penalties and canto.

3-11: Pretty trivial for both Titania and Mia, as they are locked onto the left half of the map, but at least Mia can get rescued over. Titania is basically stuck there.

3-E: No one cares.

I can't say much about part 4 performance, but Mia likely does slightly better here due to Titania's AS lagging a little. But Titania has been doing better in pretty much every part 3 map, mostly as a result of having +2 move and a horse.

Fiona above Meg

Two pieces of fail. The only thing I can say is, I never used Meg while Fiona was useful for rescuing units in 3-6 and running in to throw a Javelin and drain some laguz gauge, then cantoing out so someone else can drain laguz gauge. Fiona also rescued units in 3-12 and 3-13 because it's impossible to place ally units individually.

Edited August 1, 2010 by dondon151

[grandjackal]

I would second those thoughts, mainly because at least two of these were subjects I've brought up before. However, I thought Titania>Mia was already agreed upon, just that someone's being particularly lazy-bones to edit the list.

I won't throw my hat on the Reyson deal though for specific reason of dancers being a pain in the ass to tier, but you said that you hadn't used Meg. The only real use she has, other than being a less mobile, weaker, and in more need of EXP version of Aran, her only real use is that she exists when you have no one better to fill the slot for the sake of shoving.

I still wouldn't put that on how you measured up Fiona since I would think mobile drops is far more useful...

[-Cynthia-]

I agree with Haar>Ike, Reyson to High, and Titania>Mia.

Sothe to Top might be too much, but being a tier below Volug still strikes me as silly. Sothe has a big impact on earlygame chapters, which matters more than Volug's better Part 3 and having a better (but still not very good) Part 4. I would probably go for Sothe>Volug, though whether they should be High or Top is unclear to me.

Meg- Meh I use her for Shoving purposes, and she chipped an archer or something on 1-5 I think. Undecided here.

[Ether]

Well, let's see here:

Haar vs. Ike - Possible. It depends on how much you value flight. I could see Haar > Ike.

Sothe into top - Sothe pulls a lead in part 1, yes, but Volug's leads in the rest of the game are to a whole different scale than "Sothe has 1-2 range". Possible, but I still don't think he deserves a tier up on the GM bruisers.

Reyson down - Tiering dancers makes me want to kill myself, but I agree he could stand to go down

Titania vs. Mia -

3-P and 3-1: Thickets! Thickets everywhere! In 3-P atleast, where Mia's shoveability would give her an overall Mov advantage due to terrain penalties everywhere. Mia has higher kill rates in both maps.

3-2: How is Titania the important one here, when it is Kill boss, and Mia is one of two people who can use the Wyrmslayer on him? Titania needs +1 Spd on base and a Speedwing in order to double him, and she would need 47 Mt to 2HKO, good luck.

3-3: Haar's playground. Titania's Mov helps her, but Mia is still pulling superior offense on Non-Generals. Since Haar is doing most of the burning anyway, they are relatively even here.

3-4: Mia can climb the ledges. Say whatever you want, but Mia has the option of being rescued by whoever if she needs to get up faster, and has access to more of the map. Mia wins here.

3-5: I don't know of this 2-turn strategy you are referencing, but Mia can get a ride with Haar, and doubles Lombroso, which Titania can never do, since it is Kill Boss to end quickly, this seems kinda relevant, but I don't know your strategy.

3-7: Just because we can't shave turns off doesn't make a map irrelevant. Mia roflstomps Titania here, since she basically doesn't see combat.

3-8: Titania is 1 Str from her cap at base, so needs to be promoted to have that +2

3-10: Point from above still applies. Titania is likely promoted by now, so she does fine, but if she didn't make it, she's probably outta luck.

3-11: As you said, Mia can be carried past the pitfalls, so she wins here

3-E: Killing people shortens the map. Mia has promoted by now, and kills everything that comes into contact with her. Swordmasters are more common than generals here,so Mia holds an advantage on more enemies.

Part 4: Mia doesn't face as severe terrain penalties, and can choose her route, if that's more your style. Titania's AS is catching up to her, and she will have troubles, while Mia is essentially equal to Nailah(Nailah has a bit of superfluous concrete durability, some Mov, and get's a few more clean KOs on Generals in 4-4, while Mia has Storm Swords and Tempest blades for 1-2 range capability)

Mia is >>>> Titania in 4-E.

I could see Titania > Mia, but she just seems too shaky. Even with a Speedwing,she is so borderline for most of Part 3 that it is clearly an issue, since failing to have that Spd spells her doom. As long as Mia has access to adept and a potential critforge, she never faces this problem. Maybe I am underestimating her Mov win, but considering 2 Mov with heavy terrain penalties vs. shoveability is all it is, I think it is overestimated more than anything.

Fiona vs. Meg - I could agree with this.

Edited August 1, 2010 by Kleine

[grandjackal]

Oh, that reminds me. About the Gatrie issue. Yeah, he's great once you get him 3 speed and crown him, but there are still issues on getting him those levels (thanks shit for move), and then making use of his offense once he becomes enlightened and in touch with god (again, hello shit for move!). The big problem here is getting him anywhere. He's not getting the speed he needs any time soon I feel. 3-P he's shit out of luck thanks to all the thickets on top of his garbage move, 3-1 the only thing he can make claim of is taking the generals to the south (since taking the thicket path is ensuring either he's got problems using his shitty iron or running hte risk of missing with hsi greatlance), 3-2 is over in 2 turns that do not involve him AND he most likely cannot reach a damn thing...

Hell, it's even a pain in the ass to transport him. Even once he promotes, nearly no one can lift his big ass to transport him. He has problems even unpromoted.

So yeah, he's great once youg et him to 23 speed and crown him. Problem here is, is it worth all the effort ust to use him effectively?

Sothe into top - Sothe pulls a lead in part 1, yes, but Volug's leads in the rest of the game are to a whole different scale than "Sothe has 1-2 range". Possible, but I still don't think he deserves a tier up on the GM bruisers.

Most GMs have to compete with Haar, basically the only seperating him from Titania is that he can fly. Most DB compete with Sothe, of which he seems like god in comparison. Even with Volug hte only advantage is more move, since Sothe's offense is actually better thanks to existing support and forges that give him 1-2 range, of which at base they have the same might.

Titania vs. Mia -

3-P and 3-1: Thickets! Thickets everywhere! In 3-P atleast, where Mia's shoveability would give her an overall Mov advantage due to terrain penalties everywhere. Mia has higher kill rates in both maps.

Instantly I call bullshit. The only people keeping up with Titania are Oscar and Boyd (since Boyd starts ahead of everyone). Mia feasts off what scraps they leave her. Even with shove, they are still going to be ahead of her.

As for 3-1, this is a route map. The fact that Titania can get around the map easier and has a ranged weapon (See the grated wall? Guess what Mia's not doing?), Mia again gets trounced.

3-2: How is Titania the important one here, when it is Kill boss, and Mia is one of two people who can use the Wyrmslayer on him? Titania needs +1 Spd on base and a Speedwing in order to double him, and she would need 47 Mt to 2HKO, good luck.

The chapter can be ended in two turns. If Mia's the one doing it, guess who can get her there?

3-3: Haar's playground. Titania's Mov helps her, but Mia is still pulling superior offense on Non-Generals. Since Haar is doing most of the burning anyway, they are relatively even here.

HAHAHAHAHAAAA!! Yeah. Ok. Let's pretend you aren't insane for a second.

1. Tossing a wing Titania's way, her offense crushes Mia's.

2. Even with flight, Haar can't be everywhere. ust look at the upper right corner boxes. He has to eat through at least one soldier, then canto, wait till the next turn to burn those boxes. During this time, Titania could have burnt a box on the left side. This is faster than Haar just burning the upper right box alone. Since Titania's the first one to these boxes (I point you to the upper left set of boxes), Titania herself plays a hand in helping reduce turncounts in this chapters along WITH Haar.

3-4: Mia can climb the ledges. Say whatever you want, but Mia has the option of being rescued by whoever if she needs to get up faster, and has access to more of the map. Mia wins here.

Rescued by someone like...Titania? Even if we think of that, someone has to clear the way for Mia. Since most likely, Titania's gonna reach the enemies in hte way towards the cliff first...

3-5: I don't know of this 2-turn strategy you are referencing, but Mia can get a ride with Haar, and doubles Lombroso, which Titania can never do, since it is Kill Boss to end quickly, this seems kinda relevant, but I don't know your strategy.

*Cough* Horseslayer *cough*

3-7: Just because we can't shave turns off doesn't make a map irrelevant. Mia roflstomps Titania here, since she basically doesn't see combat.

Granted.

3-8: Titania is 1 Str from her cap at base, so needs to be promoted to have that +2

All this time, we haven't been BEXPing her? Due to her extraordinarily high level, her promoting is hardly an issue.

Even then. What is your point here exactly?

3-10: Point from above still applies. Titania is likely promoted by now, so she does fine, but if she didn't make it, she's probably outta luck.

Guess Mia's screwed then.

3-11: As you said, Mia can be carried past the pitfalls, so she wins here

Isn't it a cruel joke that this is the chapter IS decides to reintroduce the CRK?

3-E: Killing people shortens the map. Mia has promoted by now, and kills everything that comes into contact with her. Swordmasters are more common than generals here,so Mia holds an advantage on more enemies.

Now who reaches the enemy first?

Part 4: Mia doesn't face as severe terrain penalties, and can choose her route, if that's more your style. Titania's AS is catching up to her, and she will have troubles, while Mia is essentially equal to Nailah(Nailah has a bit of superfluous concrete durability, some Mov, and get's a few more clean KOs on Generals in 4-4, while Mia has Storm Swords and Tempest blades for 1-2 range capability)

So she's nothing like Nailah.

Regardless, I recall Titania being forced Ike's route. Ike's first chapter has barely any terrain issues outside of FoW so Titania's quite nice here (besides if we're REALLY having problems with her AS even though 27 AS is perfectly fine, we can toss her Paragon, since these enemies give boosted EXP already just naturally), and the last Ike chapter is a route map. Regardless of her move, you were going to have to send peple to the right side eventually to kill things. Just cause she's not moving towards Oliver doesn't mean she's not doing anything.

Mia is >>>> Titania in 4-E.

4-E-1 having Hammer agaisnt the legions of generals and 4-E-5 Braveaxe Canto vs not needing arm scrolls for Wyrmslayers for 4-E-3 and...Uhhh..attacking 1 spirit in 4-E-4?

I'd say they're tied.

I could see Titania > Mia, but she just seems too shaky. Even with a Speedwing,she is so borderline for most of Part 3 that it is clearly an issue, since failing to have that Spd spells her doom. As long as Mia has access to adept and a potential critforge, she never faces this problem. Maybe I am underestimating her Mov win, but considering 2 Mov with heavy terrain penalties vs. shoveability is all it is, I think it is overestimated more than anything.

You're underestimating her leveling speed as well.

[-Cynthia-]

3-P and 3-1: Thickets! Thickets everywhere! In 3-P atleast, where Mia's shoveability would give her an overall Mov advantage due to terrain penalties everywhere. Mia has higher kill rates in both maps.

There aren't so many thickets that Titania/Oscar's Mov leads become irrelevant. They should still end up with a significant lead on everybody else.

It's more efficient to have our units chipping/healing than Shoving Mia around, since her offense isn't actually that good and neither is her base durability. Steel Sword!Mia only has 27 Mt. This doesn't even 3HKO most things, only SMs and Sages. I'll admit Mia is better on SMs, and she's better on the Sages she ORKOs if Titania doesn't double them, but other than that she's hardly better than Soren chipping. And while Mia has Adept, Titania has the Killer Axe she can use.

3-2: How is Titania the important one here, when it is Kill boss, and Mia is one of two people who can use the Wyrmslayer on him? Titania needs +1 Spd on base and a Speedwing in order to double him, and she would need 47 Mt to 2HKO, good luck.

Haar reaches the boss first here either way and can kill him himself. Also the fact Ike can use the Wyrmslayer makes Mia somewhat redundant (since we're fieldiing Ike obviously).

3-3: Haar's playground. Titania's Mov helps her, but Mia is still pulling superior offense on Non-Generals. Since Haar is doing most of the burning anyway, they are relatively even here.

Titania still has Canto, which means she can burn, then go towards more crate/enemies.

"Better offense on Non-General enemies". Prove it. Speedwing!Titania probably has 24 AS at this point, meaning she doubles all but 1 Halb, the reinforcement halbs, the SM and the boss. 41 Mt (Steel Poleaxe) cleanly ORKOs anything Titania doubles except Generals which she can Hammer (and is borderline ORKOng with a forge + or a possible +Mt support regardless).

3-4: Mia can climb the ledges. Say whatever you want, but Mia has the option of being rescued by whoever if she needs to get up faster, and has access to more of the map. Mia wins here.

I'll give you this one, though Titania helps clear the route to the cliffs faster.

3-5: I don't know of this 2-turn strategy you are referencing, but Mia can get a ride with Haar, and doubles Lombroso, which Titania can never do, since it is Kill Boss to end quickly, this seems kinda relevant, but I don't know your strategy.

Why is Haar carrying Mia when he can kill Lombardo himself (Horseslayer)? Also Titania never doubling Lombroso = false. 2 Spd levelups, a Speedwing, and a Crown will do it.

3-7: Just because we can't shave turns off doesn't make a map irrelevant. Mia roflstomps Titania here, since she basically doesn't see combat.

Would agree, except that the map is also essentially unlosable. All Mia does here is self-improvement, except for her support bonus, meaning we can give her a small amount of credit for someone else's possible level. Doesn't count for much.

Titania should really be promoted by 3-8 if we're using BEXP effectively.

3-E: Killing people shortens the map. Mia has promoted by now, and kills everything that comes into contact with her. Swordmasters are more common than generals here,so Mia holds an advantage on more enemies.

Titania gets a lot more enemy exposure here due to Mov, so she'll be killing more enemies than Mia.

[Florete]

However, I thought Titania>Mia was already agreed upon, just that someone's being particularly lazy-bones to edit the list.

It wasn't. It was argued for but also argued against, and those arguing for it didn't push it very hard. I wasn't even one of the ones fighting against it; I was ready and willing to make the change if it was argued well enough. It just didn't happen.

[Ether]

Oh, that reminds me. About the Gatrie issue. Yeah, he's great once you get him 3 speed and crown him, but there are still issues on getting him those levels (thanks shit for move), and then making use of his offense once he becomes enlightened and in touch with god (again, hello shit for move!). The big problem here is getting him anywhere. He's not getting the speed he needs any time soon I feel. 3-P he's shit out of luck thanks to all the thickets on top of his garbage move, 3-1 the only thing he can make claim of is taking the generals to the south (since taking the thicket path is ensuring either he's got problems using his shitty iron or running hte risk of missing with hsi greatlance), 3-2 is over in 2 turns that do not involve him AND he most likely cannot reach a damn thing...

Hell, it's even a pain in the ass to transport him. Even once he promotes, nearly no one can lift his big ass to transport him. He has problems even unpromoted.

So yeah, he's great once youg et him to 23 speed and crown him. Problem here is, is it worth all the effort ust to use him effectively?

Most GMs have to compete with Haar, basically the only seperating him from Titania is that he can fly. Most DB compete with Sothe, of which he seems like god in comparison. Even with Volug hte only advantage is more move, since Sothe's offense is actually better thanks to existing support and forges that give him 1-2 range, of which at base they have the same might.

Instantly I call bullshit. The only people keeping up with Titania are Oscar and Boyd (since Boyd starts ahead of everyone). Mia feasts off what scraps they leave her. Even with shove, they are still going to be ahead of her.

As for 3-1, this is a route map. The fact that Titania can get around the map easier and has a ranged weapon (See the grated wall? Guess what Mia's not doing?), Mia again gets trounced.

There are still thickets everywhere. Anyone who doesn't have anything to do(scrubs like Rolf or Soren,Mist or Rhys if they have no one to heal,etc.) can shove Mia easily, and she has better offense than Titania, who is hindered by terrain.

Mia still has better offense than Titania because she can't have a wing yet. I'd rather have a better shot at killing the enemy than reaching it a little bit faster.

The chapter can be ended in two turns. If Mia's the one doing it, guess who can get her there?

Titania can get her there, but so can Haar, Oscar, or shovers. Only Ike can replicate the way Mia tears the boss a new one with Wyrmslayer, and he needs a Spd proc to do it, so she is the best person to kill him. Titania... 3RKO's IIRC, so even without a transport, she'd get the job done at the same time or faster, with less personal risk than Titania.

HAHAHAHAHAAAA!! Yeah. Ok. Let's pretend you aren't insane for a second.

1. Tossing a wing Titania's way, her offense crushes Mia's.

2. Even with flight, Haar can't be everywhere. ust look at the upper right corner boxes. He has to eat through at least one soldier, then canto, wait till the next turn to burn those boxes. During this time, Titania could have burnt a box on the left side. This is faster than Haar just burning the upper right box alone. Since Titania's the first one to these boxes (I point you to the upper left set of boxes), Titania herself plays a hand in helping reduce turncounts in this chapters along WITH Haar.

Titania still needs to rely on an iffy Spd Proc to have decent offense, since 2 levels by now, with her base EXP gain doesn't sound very likely. I'll give you the Mov advantage here, but Oscar can do the same, while no one can match how Mia tears through enemies without strings attached, since Ike also likely hasn't gotten that Spd proc

Rescued by someone like...Titania? Even if we think of that, someone has to clear the way for Mia. Since most likely, Titania's gonna reach the enemies in hte way towards the cliff first...

Or Oscar, or shovers. Mia can also go up the ledge neat the start if she wants to, which Titania can never do.

*Cough* Horseslayer *cough*

Titania can't wield the Horseslayer, so she still can't kill Lombroso.

Granted.

All this time, we haven't been BEXPing her? Due to her extraordinarily high level, her promoting is hardly an issue.

Even then. What is your point here exactly?

He didn't say anything aside from Hammering Generals.

Guess Mia's screwed then.

Mia can be promoted as well, and is killing things just as well.We just got another crown from the CRK, and Mia has surely capped Str by now

Isn't it a cruel joke that this is the chapter IS decides to reintroduce the CRK?

Yup, sure is. Poor Makalov, never gets a break.

Now who reaches the enemy first?

Considering the way the enemies throw themselves at you, moving farther doesn't mean much in 3-E

So she's nothing like Nailah.

Regardless, I recall Titania being forced Ike's route. Ike's first chapter has barely any terrain issues outside of FoW so Titania's quite nice here (besides if we're REALLY having problems with her AS even though 27 AS is perfectly fine, we can toss her Paragon, since these enemies give boosted EXP already just naturally), and the last Ike chapter is a route map. Regardless of her move, you were going to have to send peple to the right side eventually to kill things. Just cause she's not moving towards Oliver doesn't mean she's not doing anything.

Mia still has the freedom to climb ledges, although the terrain does seem to be mostly on the right side in 4-1. I recalled there being more.

Anyway, Titania's AS issues are more prominent in 4-4, where she needs 30 AS. As for Mia relative to Nailah, I fail to see how ORKOing low level generals instead of leaving them with single digit HP is significant. Mia is still easier to shove, and Nailah can't use her full Mov on turn one before she transforms. Titania also has reduced Mov for 4-4

4-E-1 having Hammer agaisnt the legions of generals and 4-E-5 Braveaxe Canto vs not needing arm scrolls for Wyrmslayers for 4-E-3 and...Uhhh..attacking 1 spirit in 4-E-4?

I'd say they're tied.

Brave Axe doesn't even compare to VK in 4-E-5, what with Mt issues and hit issues and lacking the ability to combo on Auras with Tibarn. As for Hammer, it's a bit of an overplayed card, don't you think? I doubt we have more than one left, and we have Ike who will always be there and makes good use of one, and any other axe user who tags along.

You're underestimating her leveling speed as well.

[Colonel M]

It wasn't. It was argued for but also argued against, and those arguing for it didn't push it very hard. I wasn't even one of the ones fighting against it; I was ready and willing to make the change if it was argued well enough. It just didn't happen.

It's not easy to. I intended my playthrough to hopefully look at the situation, but the other events that occured dettered me from arguing so, and a lot of the information (aside from Mia's combat) was already covered by Vykan, with me posting the tidbits like her Canto advantage. Ill admit that I shouldve continued my RD playthrough this time (but cut me some slack: FE12 happened). I'm willing to trek back on my path to arguing this, however.

[dondon151]

Sothe to Top might be too much, but being a tier below Volug still strikes me as silly. Sothe has a big impact on earlygame chapters, which matters more than Volug's better Part 3 and having a better (but still not very good) Part 4. I would probably go for Sothe>Volug, though whether they should be High or Top is unclear to me.

Volug's part 4 is fairly good, I think. It's hindered by transformation issues, sure (he has the same gauge depletion pattern like a hawk, so it's not a big deal), but he has the right amount of AS, decent durability and good avo, and the highest strike level of any laguz on the team outside of the royals. He'll have S strike by or shortly after the beginning of 3-6 and SS strike by his second part 4 chapter, which makes up for his middling str. This is why I'm not particularly sold on Sothe above Volug, but I agree that it seems strange that they're not in the same tier.

Sothe is like receiving a wad of cash all at once, while Volug is like receiving steady amounts of cash over time. It's still about the same amount of cash in the end.

3-P and 3-1: Thickets! Thickets everywhere! In 3-P atleast, where Mia's shoveability would give her an overall Mov advantage due to terrain penalties everywhere. Mia has higher kill rates in both maps.

It's kind of funny how the only movement advantage that Mia can claim over Titania is when both have to move through 3 thicket tiles. Mia wins in that situation by 1 move. In all other cases, she loses or ties either because of innately having 7 move or because she doesn't have canto. Consider:

- If both have to move through 3 thicket tiles, Mia has 1 move left over for normal terrain. Titania has 0.

- If both have to move through 2 thicket tiles, Mia and Titania both have 3 move left over for normal terrain.

- If both have to move through 1 thicket tile, Mia has 5 move left over for normal terrain. Titania has 6.

- Titania always has canto and 2 range; Mia never has canto and does not have 2 range for 3-P and 3-1.

3-2: How is Titania the important one here, when it is Kill boss, and Mia is one of two people who can use the Wyrmslayer on him? Titania needs +1 Spd on base and a Speedwing in order to double him, and she would need 47 Mt to 2HKO, good luck.

Assign Celerity to Haar and Savior to Titania. Forge +5 MT, +15 crit Steel Bow and assign Adept to Shinon. Give Horseslayer to Haar. Titania rescues Shinon on turn 1. Titania and Haar move forward. Titania gives Shinon to Haar on turn 2. Haar moves forward and drops Shinon on the edge of Istvan's range. Congratulations, you've completed 3-2 in 2 turns with a 58.9% chance of success. Try doing that with Mia.

In fact, I'm pretty sure Mia can't even reach Istvan after he moves his full range without Celerity (shove, sure), and someone has to draw him out anyway, which means one of Haar, Oscar, or Titania needs Celerity. This aside, Mia has a 0% chance of ending the map on turn 2 while Shinon has a 58.9% chance of ending the map on turn 2.

3-3: Haar's playground. Titania's Mov helps her, but Mia is still pulling superior offense on Non-Generals. Since Haar is doing most of the burning anyway, they are relatively even here.

No, they are not. Titania's durability is far superior to Mia's (even bringing that Ike support in play, which is C at best, and Titania can have C Oscar). Additionally, given the 1-E or 2-3 Speedwing and a spd proc, Titania is doubling and cleanly ORKOing halbs. Furthermore, Haar can only do so much in 5 turns. He has 2 supplies to burn and a tent to visit, which will take up 3 player phases, plus he needs to pick up and drop Gatrie, which take up 2 more player phases.

The faster that you go on this chapter, the more valuable Titania is. It's like a positive feedback loop.

3-4: Mia can climb the ledges. Say whatever you want, but Mia has the option of being rescued by whoever if she needs to get up faster, and has access to more of the map. Mia wins here.

This would be the case if and only if it were optimal to rescue Mia up to the ledge in the first place. But given her poor concrete durability and her C Ike support, and given the fact that there is only 1 safe configuration for Haar to drop Ike in so that neither of them dies (keep in mind, this is Haar with a Master Crown), Mia ends up doing nothing on this map. At least Titania is useful for clearing a path so that Rhys can easily provide Physic support to Haar and Ike. Again, the faster that you go on this chapter, the more valuable Titania is.

3-5: I don't know of this 2-turn strategy you are referencing, but Mia can get a ride with Haar, and doubles Lombroso, which Titania can never do, since it is Kill Boss to end quickly, this seems kinda relevant, but I don't know your strategy.

Give Haar Horseslayer. Give Reyson Laguz Stone. Lombroso, meet your end on Haar's Horseslayer. If he still lives, finish him off with Oscar.

3-7: Just because we can't shave turns off doesn't make a map irrelevant. Mia roflstomps Titania here, since she basically doesn't see combat.

The only consequence this has is that Mia gains EXP on this chapter and Titania doesn't. Which is completely irrelevant.

3-8: Titania is 1 Str from her cap at base, so needs to be promoted to have that +2

Right, I remembered that incorrectly. In this case, let's rank the enemy generals by durability:

4 have 65 combined HP + def

2 have 66 combined HP + def

7 have 67 combined HP + def

1 has 68 combined HP + def

Now, promoted Titania has, in all likelihood, 67 eff atk with Hammer. If you don't like giving all of your BEXP to Titania (which I find no problem with - you can have her promoted by 3-5 and slowplay Ike all you want after that), you can try Int's patented Pocket Mist, which gives +2 atk at A, effectively mimicking Titania's promotion bonus. So whichever way you swing it, Titania OHKOs 13/14 enemy generals on this map. Pretty sweet.

Also, given a Speedwings and putting her at --/20 lets her double all warriors, halbs, and snipers on the map. Alternatively, she gets them all with a promotion.

3-10: Point from above still applies. Titania is likely promoted by now, so she does fine, but if she didn't make it, she's probably outta luck.

The question is not "if" she didn't make it. That's almost as dumb as saying "if" Mia didn't have Adept or A Ike. Titania will make it. She has the means to ORKO or OHKO every single enemy on this map except for the boss. Mia is still relying on Adept, a crit, or both, which does yield fairly reliable 70+% activation rates, but Titania is hitting 100% on every enemy on the map. That can't be beat. Titania even has a horse.

3-11: As you said, Mia can be carried past the pitfalls, so she wins here

This is much the same problem as 3-4. Mia would win if and only if it were optimal to expend resources to carry her over a pit. But we only have Tanith, Sigrun, and Haar for ferrying duty, and only one of them can carry Savior. Ulki and Janaff will probably be fighting instead. And why would we ferry Mia when Haar does just fine all on his own, and Leanne is crying for assistance with her 5 move?

3-E: Killing people shortens the map. Mia has promoted by now, and kills everything that comes into contact with her. Swordmasters are more common than generals here,so Mia holds an advantage on more enemies.

I can assure you that no matter if you do or don't use Mia, you will not shorten this map from 5 turns to 4 turns.

Part 4: Mia doesn't face as severe terrain penalties, and can choose her route, if that's more your style. Titania's AS is catching up to her, and she will have troubles, while Mia is essentially equal to Nailah(Nailah has a bit of superfluous concrete durability, some Mov, and get's a few more clean KOs on Generals in 4-4, while Mia has Storm Swords and Tempest blades for 1-2 range capability)

Why would Mia go anywhere other than the Greil Army? Are you suggesting that we break that A Ike that we so meticulously built up before? Why would we waste her ability on the Hawk Army, where one of the maps is an Elincia - Reyson - Tibarn skip? Why would we put her in the Silver Army and have her deal with desert terrain? In any case, Titania does fine in 4-P. She only needs to be --/--/3 on average to double the halbs, though warriors are a bit out of reach. But hey, you got that Speedwing in 3-9, right? Let's put it to good use. Titania is now ORKO on every enemy on the map except the SMs and FKs. She is even dangerously close to cleanly 2HKOing the generals without a Hammer - if we use the patented Pocket Mist, Titania actually ORKOs generals up to 46 HP, 28 def at --/--/3 with just a +5 MT Silver Axe forge. I guess you can try to go for +MT cards on that forge, in which case she can get up to 46 HP, 27 def without Pocket Mist.

And in 4-4, you can just have her clean up the bottom floor. After all, it's a rout map, generals abound, and Titania has her trusty Hammer handy. She only needs 12 HP residual damage on the toughest 51 HP, 31 def generals for a clean OHKO at --/--/5.

Mia is >>>> Titania in 4-E.

I agree.

I could see Titania > Mia, but she just seems too shaky. Even with a Speedwing,she is so borderline for most of Part 3 that it is clearly an issue, since failing to have that Spd spells her doom. As long as Mia has access to adept and a potential critforge, she never faces this problem. Maybe I am underestimating her Mov win, but considering 2 Mov with heavy terrain penalties vs. shoveability is all it is, I think it is overestimated more than anything.

I completely disagree. Titania has been clutch even without the ability to double any enemy on the map other than generals and mages. I can only imagine the result if she were able to.

Edited August 1, 2010 by dondon151

[Shadow Mir]

WRT the Mia vs Titania arguments, Titania's going to be gaining Exp rather slowly. Other than that, I'm not so sure what to say...

[Junkhead]

*Sigh*

Tauroneo > Aran

His part 1 avaiblity is awful, yes. But in the chapter he contributes, he shaves off a few turns considering the first one, 1-6-1, is a route chapter, he has the advantage of killing most of the right side of the map. In 1-6-2, he can help clear the horde of Cavaliers fast. Not to mention his 2-range is actually great.

And that's all there is for Part 1.

Aran just doesn't seem to come much in handy. For one thing, his tanking isn't considerable until his HP/Def grow. He's taking chip damage until he can carry a Steel Lance and with decent Hit.

Aran is basically leeching Exp in Part 1, and his usefulness, which relies on tanking only comes at high levels.

Part 3 swings in.

Usually, we would assume Aran to be 17/1 by now...?

If so, I don't see much of a difference from him being 20/1, he'll only be doing less damage and would get 1RKO'd by 18 AS/41 Mt Tigers. And just about every enemy in Part 3 would be 2RKO'ing him.

Tauroneo is useful if he gets dibs on ledges. His durability, despite not being godexcellent by now, is still better than Aran's at 20/1 and survives many hits.

In 3-13 he's easily better than Aran. Unlike Aran, Cats don't double him. He's also getting 3HKO'd by Tigers, which is good. He's only relying on Vulneraries or Micaiah to heal him.

And in Part 4 they both kinda suck. Tauroneo is only being able to avoid getting doubled and is a little more useful at 4-P.

I suggest we either switch their places around or, lower Aran. He really has nothing going for him to be in Upper Middle.

Edited August 1, 2010 by The Leaving Song

[nflchamp]

Volug's part 4 is fairly good, I think. It's hindered by transformation issues, sure (he has the same gauge depletion pattern like a hawk, so it's not a big deal), but he has the right amount of AS, decent durability and good avo, and the highest strike level of any laguz on the team outside of the royals. He'll have S strike by or shortly after the beginning of 3-6 and SS strike by his second part 4 chapter, which makes up for his middling str. This is why I'm not particularly sold on Sothe above Volug, but I agree that it seems strange that they're not in the same tier.

Sothe is like receiving a wad of cash all at once, while Volug is like receiving steady amounts of cash over time. It's still about the same amount of cash in the end.

This is a terrible analogy because getting a wad of cash now is better than getting the same amount over a period of time. This is because I can either use or invest my wad of cash to get more out of it. I can't do anything with money I don't yet have. Getting, say, a bunch of games at one time, or games one at a time as each is completed is a better analogy. Around the same amount of enjoyment at the end, but you get it differently.

Yeah, I'm a nerd. I know.

[dondon151]

Yeah, I'm a nerd. I know.

No, I actually knew that analogy had holes, but I didn't have the time to try to think of a better one.