OMG it's a tier list

[Colonel M]

I've never personally found Aran to be worth recruiting. smash's playthrough was supposed to demonstrate how Aran shaves turns, not sure how that went/was even completed.

Topic

It... didn't really prove much it seems. Also didn't help that some of his turn counts were pretty high.

[dondon151]

-I'm advocating dropping Rolf(T), or even slashing him with Rolf(N)

-Soren vs. Rhys

-Aran to Low (almost been finalized)

-Int's and dondon's argument about Mia saving Hammer uses.

- Mist and Rhys' placement (considering below Brom)

-Heather up (Queen Elincia on page 309)

-Kyza to Bottom (dondon agreed)

I think there are a few more pressing matters that you missed. A few things still haven't yet been resolved, such as:

- Reyson out of top tier

- Haar over Ike

- Titania over Mia (in fact, after much thought I actually think Titania could deserve top tier)

- Where do Sothe and Volug belong?

It... didn't really prove much it seems. Also didn't help that some of his turn counts were pretty high.

I think his 1-3 alone proved that recruiting Aran during the chapter is counterproductive. But unfortunately, the great smash can no longer grace us with his presence, so there's not really any more ardent Aran supporters to keep him afloat.

Edited August 19, 2010 by dondon151

[-Cynthia-]

I looked over smash's topic. His turncounts were pretty bad. And there was a lot of "With Aran took 2 more turns, but RNG screwed me." or whatever excuse. Aran apparently tanked a spot in 3-6 and the only spot I saw him reduce turncount was 1-8, though given how long both versions took not sure how much that counts.

Edited August 19, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Colonel M]

- Titania over Mia (in fact, after much thought I actually think Titania could deserve top tier)

I'm not 100% sure if I can buy the Tier difference between Titania and Mia. But I am still playing through the game, so I can't really comment much. Atm I can say Titania > Mia, and there actually is some good reasoning behind it. While I've only played 3-P - 3-5 I can almost say a tier difference between them is possible, I'd like to see what happens further into the game since the next 3 maps I am facing are Routs, and Titania is pretty mediocre in one of them (3-7).

- Where do Sothe and Volug belong?

It depends on how you value their capabilities of saving turns. They seem worthy of the same tier though. Sothe is a huge help in 1-4, and his offense capabilities are still pretty high up there for a while. In 3-6 he can at least double attack and KO Tigers if needed with Beastfoe or come close to KOing with Iron Knife forge + Beast Killer as well.

[dondon151]

I'm not 100% sure if I can buy the Tier difference between Titania and Mia. But I am still playing through the game, so I can't really comment much. Atm I can say Titania > Mia, and there actually is some good reasoning behind it. While I've only played 3-P - 3-5 I can almost say a tier difference between them is possible, I'd like to see what happens further into the game since the next 3 maps I am facing are Routs, and Titania is pretty mediocre in one of them (3-7).

3-7 is utterly trivial. There really isn't any real objective in that map. You could probably just deploy only Ike and repeated press "end turn" and finish that map. It is purely self improvement for supports, CEXP, and strike WEXP, and on your second playthrough another incentive is to get an extra staff user in 4-E-5. That's it.

I don't really even want you to compare Titania to Mia right now. Compare Titania to Ike. She has +2 move on him and canto. She has significant 2 range wins in 3-8 and 3-10 before he gets Ragnell. She doesn't experience any problems in her part 4 maps since I guess we assume that --/20/9 is a reasonable target for 4-4, which allows her to double everything but SMs (which Ike won't double either).

[Naglfar]

I think there are a few more pressing matters that you missed. A few things still haven't yet been resolved, such as:

- Reyson out of top tier

- Haar over Ike

- Titania over Mia (in fact, after much thought I actually think Titania could deserve top tier)

- Where do Sothe and Volug belong?

I think his 1-3 alone proved that recruiting Aran during the chapter is counterproductive. But unfortunately, the great smash can no longer grace us with his presence, so there's not really any more ardent Aran supporters to keep him afloat.

So that's, what, ten arguments? I think the tier list needs a first come, first serve system, where only one or a few matters can be argued at a time. Guys, let's hold back until some of this is sorted out, okay?

Aaaand for the record, Soren(T) vs Rhys is there for the purpose of moving Mist and Rhys closer together. While I'm at it, I vote for Mist and Rhys being slashed. I wouldn't slash Mist(N) and Mist(T), for (T)'s slight durability lead. Being 2RKO'd allows for a lot more freedom of placement than being doubled and 1RKO'd.

Edited August 19, 2010 by Naglfar

[grandjackal]

I just realized something.

If Leo can do magic with the Lughnasahd in the laguz chapters when dealing with untransformed bastards even at base, along with his chip utility early on in part 1...What's Rolf doing over him again?

[Anouleth]

So that's, what, ten arguments? I think the tier list needs a first come, first serve system, where only one or a few matters can be argued at a time. Guys, let's hold back until some of this is sorted out, okay?

Aaaand for the record, Soren(T) vs Rhys is there for the purpose of moving Mist and Rhys closer together.

Perhaps it's Mist that needs to move down rather than Rhys that needs to move up. It depends on what you think is better - healing with a few situational uses, or a semi-decent combatant with 6 move.

[Naglfar]

Perhaps it's Mist that needs to move down rather than Rhys that needs to move up. It depends on what you think is better - healing with a few situational uses, or a semi-decent combatant with 6 move.

No, it depends whether or not Mist's healing utility is worse than CRK chapters/thief utility/etc, and whether or not Rhys's healing utility is better than limited glass cannon combat/2-P monopoly/etc. Who out of Mist or Rhys is better is going to decide where they are in relation to each other, but not to anybody else.

[Zkirsche]

It's not that too much is being discussed at once, it's that Int/dondon are discussing one thing way too much.

No, it's too much is being discussed. Let's take a look at what we have:

I'm advocating dropping Rolf(T), or even slashing him with Rolf(N)

-Soren vs. Rhys

-Aran to Low (almost been finalized)

-Int's and dondon's argument about Mia saving Hammer uses.

- Mist and Rhys' placement (considering below Brom)

-Heather up (Queen Elincia on page 309)

-Kyza to Bottom (dondon agreed)

- Reyson out of top tier

- Haar over Ike

- Titania over Mia (in fact, after much thought I actually think Titania could deserve top tier)

- Where do Sothe and Volug belong?

Oh, and this has forgotten Mist (T), who still hasn't been moved :/.

I might sig this agenda for future purposes.

Edit: Just realised I can't because of the line limit (which isn't bypassed by spoiler tags, unfortunately).

Edited August 19, 2010 by Zwiebel

[Fenrir]

I could agree with Aran dropping, but Low tier? I'm not sure Aran is worse than say, Ilyana. Ilyana chips for more, but Aran can actually have durability eventually. And while Aran's Part 3 may be overrated by some, it's better than whatever she's doing.

Ilyana is on GM, thats resources and bexp, Ilyana also has a better P1.

- Titania over Mia (in fact, after much thought I actually think Titania could deserve top tier)

- Where do Sothe and Volug belong?

I'll need to play this game again seirously using Titan before i can say anything.

top of high tier

I just realized something.

If Leo can do magic with the Lughnasahd in the laguz chapters when dealing with untransformed bastards even at base, along with his chip utility early on in part 1...What's Rolf doing over him again?

I still think Heather > Rolf, definitly Leo > Rolf.

Can Ed get added to agenda? there's no way he should be in lower-mid, saving so many turns in just 1-P through 1-3.

[Soren37]

Ed's fine where he is to me. He starts off nice, like so many other Lower Mid characters, but quickly becomes a liability. 1-P to 1-4 are his good moments, and then he starts to dive-bomb.

[dondon151]

I don't think that's totally unreasonable. Eddie is roughly in the same boat with "hi I'm only useful for 2 maps" units like Brom and the CRK, but he's an entire tier down on them. I also don't understand why there is a full tier's difference between Geoffrey and Kieran (or even Makalov, of all people).

[Anouleth]

Well, Edward isn't even in the 'two maps and then binned' department, since he can help out in other early maps before deployment grows too tight. When are we going to deploy Geoffrey and Kieran after 3-9?

[Interceptor]

you didn't rank yourself.

I am now 100% certain that I have tiered you correctly.

Me and GJ are only low b/c of eddy i bet >.>

There is no concept of "low". It's not a list that tracks debating prowess, popularity, or how much I like someone; it's just an observation of the nature of the conversation when I discuss something with one of those people.

I'm not 100% sure if I can buy the Tier difference between Titania and Mia. But I am still playing through the game, so I can't really comment much. Atm I can say Titania > Mia, and there actually is some good reasoning behind it. While I've only played 3-P - 3-5 I can almost say a tier difference between them is possible, I'd like to see what happens further into the game since the next 3 maps I am facing are Routs, and Titania is pretty mediocre in one of them (3-7).

I'm inclined to go along with Titania > Mia based on available evidence, but keep in mind that the story is not over at 3-Endgame. Order enemies in Part 4 are not a joke, even a Speedwinged and BEXP abused Titania is running into issues in the Greil Army. These chapters plus Endgame are essentially Mia's best performances.

[dondon151]

I'm inclined to go along with Titania > Mia based on available evidence, but keep in mind that the story is not over at 3-Endgame. Order enemies in Part 4 are not a joke, even a Speedwinged and BEXP abused Titania is running into issues in the Greil Army. These chapters plus Endgame are essentially Mia's best performances.

The only real issue that Titania's running into is that she's more likely to be RNG screwed in spd than Mia, but on average her 31 AS at --/20/9 lets her double everything but SMs in 4-4. Even if she's screwed by 1 point, she can still double all but 2 halbs on the map (but not the snipers or warriors), but EXP gain over the course of the map can buffer that. She needs 49 atk to 2HKO the toughest halbs and 51 atk for the warriors, so admittedly a Mist support might come in useful as a forged Hand Axe caps at 14 MT. I guess alternatively you could give her one or both of your Tomahawks (since Titania does come close to capping str at --/20/9) for a flat 49 atk, which will miss out on level 12 warriors (whom she needs 32 AS to double anyway), but gets everything else.

But really, that's the worst of Titania's problems.

Edited August 19, 2010 by dondon151

[Interceptor]

The only real issue that Titania's running into is that she's more likely to be RNG screwed in spd than Mia, but on average her 31 AS at --/20/9 lets her double everything but SMs in 4-4. [...] But really, that's the worst of Titania's problems.

Titania is also afflicted with a number of imaginary issues, which are inferior to her "real" issues, but since they still make a difference in her performance, I think that they are worth talking about.

One imaginary issue is her mobility: Canto remains good, but FoW hurts her in 4-1, and 4-4 presents her with a -2 MV penalty and an inability to climb ledges. Another illusory problem: she's now in the awkward position of tiegaming 2-range combat with a mono-sword user, since there's a Tempest around at this point, and you get a second one in the process of clearing 4-4. And then there's her fictitious blick rate, for non-guaranteed kills: she has no innate crit, and Sol is garbage in terms of activation chances (doesn't help that Titania's SKL growth/cap isn't even that great).

And lest we forget, remember her completely hallucinatory durability problems in Part 4, what with situations where she is 4HKO'ed at scary hit rates and therefore needs extra help to survive (Imbue, support partner, magic Sol procs, etc), when Mia is hanging around the Commander and doesn't know how to die. And then there is her Endgame, where abysmal performance in both 4-E-4 and 4-E-5 is surely nothing but a fever-dream.

But sure, chance of being SPD-screwed, that sucks too.

Edited August 19, 2010 by Interceptor

[dondon151]

One imaginary issue is her mobility: Canto remains good, but FoW hurts her in 4-1, and 4-4 presents her with a -2 MV penalty and an inability to climb ledges. Another illusory problem: she's now in the awkward position of tiegaming 2-range combat with a mono-sword user, since there's a Tempest around at this point, and you get a second one in the process of clearing 4-4. And then there's her fictitious blick rate, for non-guaranteed kills: she has no innate crit, and Sol is garbage in terms of activation chances (doesn't help that Titania's SKL growth/cap isn't even that great).

I don't see how fog in 4-1 hurts her any more than it hurts anyone else except for maybe Janaff and beast laguz, but even then they don't have 2 range and can't counter 2 range enemies on enemy phase. Titania can pretty much charge on blindly in the dark with a forged Hand Axe and destroy stuff. Granted, she's 4RKO'd, but you have resources such as 1 of 3 Seraph Robes, a Dracoshield, a Talisman, and Pure Water (not that I'm advocating giving all of those resources to her, but it's not like there are many better options) to have her reach 5RKO'd status, not to mention the potential supports that can give +2 or +3 def on top of that to reach 6RKO'd status.

As for 4-4, her only non guaranteed kills are against generals with weapons not called Hammer. I seem to recall you saying that generals are not a problem for Titania on 4-4, but I have not looked at the map yet, so I'm not going to say anything. If she really had to ORKO generals without Hammer, then you can stick one of your 3 Adepts on her and she'll have 2 chances to proc 31% Adept and 15% Sol on generals that she 3HKOs. Her inability to climb ledges is not actually a severe hindrance because last time I checked, there were enemies along the bottom floor that needed to be routed. Now, anyone would prefer that Titania had access to the entire map rather than that one portion, but that just means that we can divert everyone else to the top floor, and it's no net loss.

And lest we forget, remember her completely hallucinatory durability problems in Part 4, what with situations where she is 4HKO'ed at scary hit rates and therefore needs extra help to survive (Imbue, support partner, magic Sol procs, etc), when Mia is hanging around the Commander and doesn't know how to die. And then there is her Endgame, where abysmal performance in both 4-E-4 and 4-E-5 is surely nothing but a fever-dream.

Yes, Mia does better in 4-4 and 4-E maps not named 4-E-1. I'm not sure how that even comes close to Titania absolutely stomping her performance in part 3. 4-E maps past 4-E-1 are almost trivial anyway because they can be demolished by laguz royals.

I guess you never really explicitly stated any contest with Titania going into top tier, though, and I'd hate to put words in your mouth like you so often accuse me of, so the only information that I can extract from your post is that you're neither opposed to nor supporting Titania going a tier up on Mia.

Edited August 19, 2010 by dondon151

[RNG Princess]

Well, Edward isn't even in the 'two maps and then binned' department, since he can help out in other early maps before deployment grows too tight. When are we going to deploy Geoffrey and Kieran after 3-9?

What about 3-11? Kieran can help rescue/drop.

[dondon151]

I do believe that there is a section of the map where it is impossible to cross without falling into a pit. Kieran has to navigate around sandbags; Marcia does not; you also have Haar and a forced Tanith and Sigrun.

[RNG Princess]

I do believe that there is a section of the map where it is impossible to cross without falling into a pit. Kieran has to navigate around sandbags; Marcia does not; you also have Haar and a forced Tanith and Sigrun.

I remember getting around that

All it took was Haar and Sigrun getting rid of the enemies with the shine barriers on one of the earlier turns.

However I didn't think, Kieran costs a slot for 3-11 and both Titania and Oscar are naturally considered to be better candidates for the spot.

+ Marcia, Tanith, Sigrun, and Haar should be enough to rescue/drop 2 people.

and then Ranulf comes to mind.

Edited August 19, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Fenrir]

I am now 100% certain that I have tiered you correctly.

There is no concept of "low". It's not a list that tracks debating prowess, popularity, or how much I like someone; it's just an observation of the nature of the conversation when I discuss something with one of those people.

I'm inclined to go along with Titania > Mia based on available evidence, but keep in mind that the story is not over at 3-Endgame. Order enemies in Part 4 are not a joke, even a Speedwinged and BEXP abused Titania is running into issues in the Greil Army. These chapters plus Endgame are essentially Mia's best performances.

Yay!

But its not like titan is Aran bad on these stages, she still does work.

[Deliriyum]

I'm going to ask a question

-Transfer units are assumed in a void. That is, if someone wants to debate Ike (T)'s position, it is assumed he is the only transferred unit on the team. This is to prevent arguments about which units might have been transferred on a team since you can't transfer everyone in one run and allows us to see the general impact a transferred unit has on the game as accurately as possible. However, this does not mean that one unit is allowed all of PoR's stat boosters. Those are already included in the current transfer setup.

You say this, but everyone who can use the KW is assumed to be using it? Correct?

[Colonel M]

Well technically you can be cheap and put a flying unit above the pit, or was that FE9?

In regards to the Robes, unless you're saying "fuk DB" they're likely being used. Ike caps HP with it, and of course the sooner we can slowplay BEXP with him the better. Jill really needs hers since it allows her to take two Cats and a Cat + Tiger (I think the latter requires some procing but mine was Def-screwed). Then there's Nolan who wants to stomach two Tigers. I might play 3-6 again though since I remember one phase he would have to stomach 3! Tigers but I might've accidentally counted the Reeds as no Mov penalty on untransformed laguz.

Edited August 19, 2010 by Colonel M

[Interceptor]

I don't see how fog in 4-1 hurts her any more than it hurts anyone else

We would be remiss not to note that Titania's vaunted mobility advantage is curtailed here.

As for 4-4, her only non guaranteed kills are against generals with weapons not called Hammer.

One wonders what Titania is doing against the Swordmasters. Anyway, I didn't say that Generals were not a problem, it would be more accurate to say that I claimed Generals were the least of her problems. Naturally it's fine for her to use a Hammer against them, Enemy Phase considerations notwithstanding. There are a couple/few of them that she could reasonably face, iirc.

Her inability to climb ledges is not actually a severe hindrance because last time I checked, there were enemies along the bottom floor that needed to be routed. Now, anyone would prefer that Titania had access to the entire map rather than that one portion, but that just means that we can divert everyone else to the top floor, and it's no net loss.

The inability to climb ledges is insignificant next to the power of the Force has the effect of forcing her to fight the enemies on the bottom floor, making it easy to point out where she may have issues. Now, she's good down there, all things considered, but it gets a little awkward when a high AS Warrior, a Swordmaster, and a Sniper all warp on top of her head.

Yes, Mia does better in 4-4 and 4-E maps not named 4-E-1. I'm not sure how that even comes close to Titania absolutely stomping her performance in part 3. 4-E maps past 4-E-1 are almost trivial anyway because they can be demolished by laguz royals.

Performance in 4-E-1 is important, because Titania can't do anything there without adding in her contributions in the rest of Endgame, since we can't change deployments. I can see how you don't agree with the general idea, since you are of the opinion that Titania is grinding Mia underneath her horse's hooves in Part 3.

I guess you never really explicitly stated any contest with Titania going into top tier, though, and I'd hate to put words in your mouth like you so often accuse me of, so the only information that I can extract from your post is that you're neither opposed to nor supporting Titania going a tier up on Mia.

I would prefer to reserve Top tier for the likes of Haar.

Well technically you can be cheap and put a flying unit above the pit, or was that FE9?

You can do this in FE10. Whether it's intentional or not, parking a flier on a non-activated pit trap will allow anyone to pass underneath them.

Edited August 19, 2010 by Interceptor