OMG it's a tier list

[nflchamp]

And furthermore, boss abuse =/= taking the time to kill most enemies. You can easily draw a line where the so-called "abuse" stops, it doesn't have to be an all-or-nothing "EFFICIENCY EFFICIENCY EFFICIENCY" kind of deal.

Yes, you can draw a line, but who gets to draw the line? The people debating is the answer. Here lies the problem (as far as your argument against efficiency goes):

When arguing for a character that a person feels is out of place on the tier list, they're going to push the boundaries of what is acceptable and explain why it is reasonable to do so. If people agree with this reasoning then what is acceptable shifts. So while we can draw a line anywhere we damn please, we can also redraw the line whenever we think there is a better place for it. In the end, you'll end up going one of two ways on a list like this. You'll either go the route of 'It doesn't matter how long it takes, stats are all that matter,' or 'Stats aren't the end all be all, whoever can do the same thing faster is clearly better.'

Actually, it can only reasonably go one way using logic, but that's beside the point.

[Narga_Rocks]

What IS subjective is the interpretation of the post to which I was saying was ironic. But I'm not going to argue about irony with you.

Durrrrrr don't think I don't know how Bexp levels work. Haar's capped str, skl, and def by level 19, which gives you a good level up there for spd, and he's capped skl and def far earlier than that, so it's quite likely to get spd bexp level ups as early as --/16.

Of course, nobody seems to realize this and instead says 'HEY GUYS LET'S GO AND USE A MASTER CROWN ON HIM RIGHT AWAY !!!!!" and then say "Damn that Haar! He wastes a Master Crown AND has no speed!" If the speed issue is such a big deal, DON'T PROMOTE HIM EARLY. If the Master Crown issue is such a big deal, DON'T PROMOTE HIM EARLY. You can't complain that both of those are points against Haar when they're completely avoidable. And don't start with the whole "But he gets promotion bonuses!" because Haar does not immediately need more str, skl, or def than he already has, and not promoting him and using one or two levels of bexp gets him EVEN MORE speed than he'd get regularly.

There are two options:

1: give him a wing and then crown him when he manages to proc 2 spd of his own. He'll have 22+2+2 spd from this, which is 26 speed. You can perhaps get this as early as 3-5 if you are a little lucky. He'll double and ORKO everything in part 3 but swordmasters from that point on, I think.

2: give him nothing and slowly push his spd up. You don't level all that quickly in RD HM so it will take a while to get him up. Even when I rout every map, you still aren't getting too many promotions before 3-8 or so, and there is no guarantee he'll even hit 24 spd before natural promotion. In fact, he very likely won't.

3: you can go with something in between, but in general the in between is likely to be worse than these two alternatives.

For 1: he does cost you that wing and crown. Now, these are often minor costs, but arguably enough to let Ike squeak out a win.

For 2: he doesn't double throughout most of part 3 and on top of that he only has 20 capacity available so he can't, for example, use celerity + saviour in order to speed up chapters with dropping units that must seize. Think 3-4. There are other times where saviour can be beneficial.

Haar's performance in part 3 is more important than part 4, anyway. Also, it's not possible to beat 26 speed the moment he promotes. Your path to the fastest Haar possible is a wing + getting to 24 spd + promotion to get 26 ASAP. The earlier you promote him, the more time he has to gain tier 3 experience in the hope that spd will proc a couple of times. The later you promote him, the longer it will take to get beyond 26 speed. Not that we really care about him having epic speed in part 4. He's fine in 4-P as is, and 4-3 he's still a durable flier so even if he doesn't double it's not the end of the world.

And furthermore, boss abuse =/= taking the time to kill most enemies. You can easily draw a line where the so-called "abuse" stops, it doesn't have to be an all-or-nothing "EFFICIENCY EFFICIENCY EFFICIENCY" kind of deal.

But you are the only one here that wants to draw the line at "rout every map but don't dawdle beyond that". The rest of us are a little stricter than that. There is no reason for a tier list to adjust to the speed preference of a single person. Do you get that?

[Anouleth]

Of course, nobody seems to realize this and instead says 'HEY GUYS LET'S GO AND USE A MASTER CROWN ON HIM RIGHT AWAY !!!!!" and then say "Damn that Haar! He wastes a Master Crown AND has no speed!" If the speed issue is such a big deal, DON'T PROMOTE HIM EARLY. If the Master Crown issue is such a big deal, DON'T PROMOTE HIM EARLY. You can't complain that both of those are points against Haar when they're completely avoidable. And don't start with the whole "But he gets promotion bonuses!" because Haar does not immediately need more str, skl, or def than he already has, and not promoting him and using one or two levels of bexp gets him EVEN MORE speed than he'd get regularly.

Even if Haar caps speed in tier 2, which requires a Wing at least, he goes into Tier 3 with 26AS and a 30% growth, which is not great for Part 4 where you need that magic 30AS. In addition, if Haar is taking a Wing, which is a no-brainer imo, we may as well crown him as soon as he hits 24AS, since we want that increased skill capacity and speed.

[General Banzai]

Er, let me rephrase that.

"How big of a difference does it make anyhow?" Remember we still likely have Brave Weapons sitting around and there's always Horseslaying Paladins in 4-P. He's likely not fielded in 4-E which isn't a big deal.

Wait, who IS fielded at endgame?

[RNG Princess]

Wait, who IS fielded at endgame?

Whoever the player raised.

Except some characters have advantages over others. Its just on average a raised Haar (his speed and res probably) doesn't stand out as a perfect endgame candidate.

[Soren37]

As far as I can tell, Ike and Mia have a spot, along with Neph. Nolan's brought along too, while Volug or Jill fill in the other DB spot. Most of the Pallies are ignored due to bad SPD caps this time. Calill's the only useful mage to bring along, as she'll have enough STR to pick up the Rexflame so she can double. Miccy and Snacks are reduced to healbotting or siegebotting, whichever is necessary. The laguz royals are brought in indefinitely as they are extremely useful because of their amazing bases.

I'm not sure about these, but Ulki and Janaff do seem to come highly recommended, and Gatrie can double if he's in range of Nasir.

[Fenrir]

Wait, who IS fielded at endgame?

we're never at a shortage of endgame people, 2 lions, plus the bird kings and nailah gives us 5 really good characters. Lets throw in 1-2 of nolan/eddy/jill and we're at 6-7 plus Shinnon, Mia, Neph, even Boyd. We could throw in the hawks, Skrimir or anyone else, but 4-E isnt haar's bright moment, he does however do very nice on 4-E-1, i think intercepter fielded him almost solely for his ability in this battle.

[dondon151]

As far as I can tell, Ike and Mia have a spot, along with Neph. Nolan's brought along too, while Volug or Jill fill in the other DB spot. Most of the Pallies are ignored due to bad SPD caps this time. Calill's the only useful mage to bring along, as she'll have enough STR to pick up the Rexflame so she can double. Miccy and Snacks are reduced to healbotting or siegebotting, whichever is necessary. The laguz royals are brought in indefinitely as they are extremely useful because of their amazing bases.

I'm not sure about these, but Ulki and Janaff do seem to come highly recommended, and Gatrie can double if he's in range of Nasir.

Calill is terrible because it's incredibly difficult for her to reach the point where she does well in 4-E. Gatrie is also terrible because his spd cap doesn't let him double auras in 4-E-5 and because his mobility sucks anyway.

Mia, Shinon, Neph, Nolan, and Jill are the top 5 beorc picks for 4-E. 1 slot is typically reserved for Elincia or Mist as a secondary staff user. That leaves 4 more slots, which can be filled by royals and Giffca.

[Anouleth]

Wait, who IS fielded at endgame?

Generally, the four Royals + Giffca are assumed to be fielded, since they generally kick everyone else's ass.

As for other units, Elincia, Shinon, Mia, Nephenee, Jill, or Nolan is a good team that covers all the awesome weapons. Although I'd probably field Haar or Marcia or even Tanith over Nephenee. Nolan could be replaced with Boyd, I guess, Mia could be replaced with Stefan or Zihark, Shinon could be replaced with Rolf.

Edited August 14, 2010 by Slowking

[Soren37]

Sorry about those two, dondon. I do remember hearing that those two can be made endgame worthy, even if it is difficult.

And movement aside, Gatrie can stand beside Nasir for the delicious +5 SPD boost, which allows him to double the spirits.

Calill's big issue is availability, but she can pick up Rexflame without being weighed down, and the +3 SPD will guarantee her doubling.

[dondon151]

Doubling spirits in 4-E-4 is trivial when you can easily 1 or 2 turn clear the map. It's doubling auras with Nasir in 4-E-5 that counts, and Gatrie falls short.

[RNG Princess]

Is Rolf really the second best choice after Shinnon?

He seems so difficult to raise :/ and iirc Leo has more availability and Astrid has paragon. They seem easier to raise compared to Rolf but maybe I'm missing something, and I highly doubt Shinnon needs to step aside in the first place unless he dies.

I take that back on Leo, having him promote twice while playing efficiently is more of a pain than training Rolf.

Edited August 14, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[dondon151]

Rolf (T), maybe, but he, Leo, and Astrid are normally not getting anywhere fast, so...

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

I'll mention it again that Marcia, Tanith, and Elincia should all be fielded for endgame.

[Fenrir]

Is Rolf really the second best choice after Shinnon?

He seems so difficult to raise :/ and iirc Leo has more availability and Astrid has paragon. They seem easier to raise compared to Rolf but maybe I'm missing something, and I highly doubt Shinnon needs to step aside in the first place unless he dies.

I take that back on Leo, having him promote twice while playing efficiently is more of a pain than training Rolf.

If you are planning on a bow its Shinnon or no one, unless you have rolf(t) like dondon said. Rolf is bleh to train, Leo is ahnoying for DB with no enemy phase and Astrid has no avalibility and still sucks.

I'll mention it again that Marcia, Tanith, and Elincia should all be fielded for endgame.

I wouldn't put the time into training them, Elincia is good, but Marcia and Tanith are not that great in P4.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

I wouldn't put the time into training them, Elincia is good, but Marcia and Tanith are not that great in P4.

Nonsense. Use Paragon and BEXP where needed and you'll find that they are perfectly serviceable at combat and that their class advantages help in the Silver and Hawk Armies.

[RNG Princess]

Nonsense. Use Paragon and BEXP where needed and you'll find that they are perfectly serviceable at combat and that their class advantages help in the Silver and Hawk Armies.

This and I personally like putting wrath on them with forged javelins on that desert map.

Edited August 14, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[dondon151]

Nonsense. Use Paragon and BEXP where needed and you'll find that they are perfectly serviceable at combat and that their class advantages help in the Silver and Hawk Armies.

Serviceable, yes, but their stats aren't good enough by 4-E even with Paragon and BEXP. I barely managed to get Marcia to --/8 after 3-9 with Paragon in that chapter, and they have to go through 4-P and 4-3 with subpar combat and subsequently stunted EXP gains.

[Fenrir]

Also, if they are not triangle attacking there combat sucks. I think its proven we can do endgame just fine without them.(they wouldn't have helped int on his run) So why waste paragon and bexp on these units?

[Anouleth]

I'll mention it again that Marcia, Tanith, and Elincia should all be fielded for endgame.

As much as I love Marcia and Tanith, it has to be said that they're not easy to train without a lot of investment. Marcia's promotion bonuses may as well be on the moon for how far away she is from level 20, and Tanith has speed issues forever unless you want to funnel BEXP and statboosters into her.

[RNG Princess]

Also, if they are not triangle attacking there combat sucks. I think its proven we can do endgame just fine without them.(they wouldn't have helped int on his run) So why waste paragon and bexp on these units?

Paragon on Marcia isn't a waste, especially not on 3-9 since she's the best candidate for it.

I'd argue it isn't a waste on Tanith either but there are better candidates for it. Tanith using paragon would help her promote faster which would help her combat better (but she's still useful as a ferry bot which is a main reason pegs should be on the silver team).

Edited August 14, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

As much as I love Marcia and Tanith, it has to be said that they're not easy to train without a lot of investment. Marcia's promotion bonuses may as well be on the moon for how far away she is from level 20, and Tanith has speed issues forever unless you want to funnel BEXP and statboosters into her.

I found them no harder to train than units like Nolan or Jill in Part 1.

Also, if they are not triangle attacking there combat sucks. I think its proven we can do endgame just fine without them.(they wouldn't have helped int on his run) So why waste paragon and bexp on these units?

1. The first sentence is incorrect.

2. Triangle attacking is all you need to do after 4-E-1, and even during 4-E-1, if someone like Neph is put into this discussion of best endgame team, stats are comparable enough that Marcia and Tanith work as well.

3. We can do endgame fine without any two given units. However, these two are capable of speeding up chapters no one else can, besides Sigrun, put that's beside the point.

4. Who else are we giving paragon? BEXP is due for everyone used.

[Fenrir]

I found them no harder to train than units like Nolan or Jill in Part 1.

1. The first sentence is incorrect.

2. Triangle attacking is all you need to do after 4-E-1, and even during 4-E-1, if someone like Neph is put into this discussion of best endgame team, stats are comparable enough that Marcia and Tanith work as well.

3. We can do endgame fine without any two given units. However, these two are capable of speeding up chapters no one else can, besides Sigrun, put that's beside the point.

4. Who else are we giving paragon? BEXP is due for everyone used.

-Thank you for telling me why.

-except neph is not vulnerable to mages and the stats may be comparable but neph gets the wishblade while one of these two is stuck with something else, therefore, neph is +4 stonger than tanith, or has +6 on a non-wishblade marcia.(assuming they get an 18mt weapon...i forgot the max mt of silver spear)

-So, they take Nolan and Jill's places lets say. Now our team has to go in these certain formations to make anything work at all.

-Miccy, any lower level unit, its hard to say since every PT is different, another reason i don't think, aside from Tibarn, Naesala and Cain there should be any "normal" endgame characters.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

-Thank you for telling me why.

-except neph is not vulnerable to mages and the stats may be comparable but neph gets the wishblade while one of these two is stuck with something else, therefore, neph is +4 stonger than tanith, or has +6 on a non-wishblade marcia.(assuming they get an 18mt weapon...i forgot the max mt of silver spear)

-So, they take Nolan and Jill's places lets say. Now our team has to go in these certain formations to make anything work at all.

-Miccy, any lower level unit, its hard to say since every PT is different, another reason i don't think, aside from Tibarn, Naesala and Cain there should be any "normal" endgame characters.

1. Ditto.

2. Vulnerable to mages what is this? Neph gets the Wishblade wtf? By the time the Wishblade shows up, in any case, you're in triangle attack mode. In 4-E-3, you don't even need the Wishblade as you're going Wyrmslayer. In 4-E-4, everyone one rounds spirits and the Triangle Attack is obviously better for Sephiran, as is 4-E-5 for auras.

3. Does not follow.

4. What exactly does Micaiah need levels for? Healers could care less about stats. And the vague "other units" and the like basically means no one.

[-Cynthia-]

In overall turn saving though, training Neph gives us better results than training Marcia or Tanith. It's more important to have good units in the other part 4 maps (4-4 in particular) than 4-E, 4-E tends to last the same number of turns no matter who you're using, assuming you're deploying a lot of royals.

Training Nephenee also helps us more for part 3.

Edited August 14, 2010 by -Cynthia-