OMG it's a tier list

[RNG Princess]

I like Rafiel the most but Reyson has advantages, he can actually take a hit or better dodging and he's available for more maps.

[Zanarkin]

You also missed 3-E.

I find he makes no difference here, I have done 5/4 turns without Reyson.

I'd argue Rafiel is completely incompetent here. 3 units can handle it in 5 turns (Ike + Nailah + one more for West, Titania will do) and Rafiel won't help that one bit. I don't know if it can be 4-turned, but if it can, it's unlikely to be due to Rafiel because it would be too hard to defend him.

i'd try to argue here, but sure, not knowing the enemy position makes it hard.

This map gives Rafiel similar problems to 1-E. He just isn't mobile enough and some areas are too cramped.

Not necessarily true. Rafiel could just use Celerity/boots for movility problems. There is also the fact that the middle route isn't as crammed, and its easy to take care of rafiel if your units can kill reliably (which shouldn't be a big problem at this point).

No. This is the map in 4-E where Reyson wins. There just isn't the right space for Rafiel to make good use of his first turn, and then Reyson's flight + Canto wins it.

Rafiel helps break through the wall of Generals. He doesn't need Canto here as much though, nothing should be attaking him.

While this is all true and Rafiel is the better Heron for these maps, it doesn't mean Reyson isn't still helpful.

Rafiel being the better one means Rafiel wins in these maps. Reyson can be useful but not by much, these maps (except for 4-E-5) are easily 2 turned without a Heron. In 4-E-5 the faster and the more damage you do by turn the better meaning Rafiel > Reyson. Rafiel being better for more maps than Reyson means We should be bringing Rafiel.

I stand by Reyson > Rafiel because of pre-Endgame. There's just not enough for Rafiel to do while Reyson makes multiple maps faster. I can see them being in the same tier, though.

Same tier yes.

Rafiel > Reyson is something i just don't see but most people think so anyway and i haven't been able to change your minds so eh.

No. Leanne is even worse than Reyson in Endgame because only two Vigored units probably isn't enough to 1 turn E-3 and E-4.

Then i don't see why she is above Rafiel.

BTW, i'm going by the assumption we are using a moderately big team, and not necessarily going by draft quantity.

Edited July 19, 2011 by Jhen Mohran

[Anouleth]

I can see Rafiel > Reyson happening, but Raf's 1-8/4-1 are horrible.

Leanne though, you're shitting me rite?

I don't know what you're talking about. I think it should remain Reyson>Rafiel>Leanne. What I stated was correct. In any given section of Endgame, Leanne will vigor the same amount or less than Reyson since you need Rafiel to 1-turn without having like 5 Rescue staff users.

However, Leanne is herself quite good. All of the maps that she's in, she's crucial to low turning, which I can't really say about Reyson's 3-5, 3-7, or 3-E. Or even 4-5.

[Radiant Dragon]

Not necessarily true. Rafiel could just use Celerity/boots for movility problems. There is also the fact that the middle route isn't as crammed, and its easy to take care of rafiel if your units can kill reliably (which shouldn't be a big problem at this point).

Rafiel is not going to have the Boots or Celerity in 1-E.

Rafiel helps break through the wall of Generals. He doesn't need Canto here as much though, nothing should be attaking him.

Canto is not the issue. Your Heron probably has to hang back on turn one here, so Reyson wins since his superior movement is more useful.

Rafiel > Reyson is something i just don't see but most people think so anyway and i haven't been able to change your minds so eh.

Do you mean Reyson > Rafiel?

@ Anouleth, i didn't count 3-7 because he really doesn't do much there.

He lets us get more CEXP and Strike EXP for our Laguz. It's not much, but it's something.

[Junkhead]

Is it really possible to 1-turn 4-E-5 outside of lolEasyMode?

[Zanarkin]

Rafiel is not going to have the Boots or Celerity in 1-E.

Um Fox was talking about 4-4 AFAIK

Canto is not the issue. Your Heron probably has to hang back on turn one here, so Reyson wins since his superior movement is more useful.

I have had Rafiel move and vigor without danger. Its not hard to protect him without going out of your way.

Do you mean Reyson > Rafiel?

Nope my opinion still stands

He lets us get more CEXP and Strike EXP for our Laguz. It's not much, but it's something.

Its the same as if they get it on their enemy phase.

Edited July 19, 2011 by Jhen Mohran

[Fenrir]

I find he makes no difference here, I have done 5/4 turns without Reyson.

Not necessarily true. Rafiel could just use Celerity/boots for movility problems. There is also the fact that the middle route isn't as crammed, and its easy to take care of rafiel if your units can kill reliably (which shouldn't be a big problem at this point).

Rafiel helps break through the wall of Generals. He doesn't need Canto here as much though, nothing should be attaking him.

Same tier yes.

Rafiel > Reyson is something i just don't see but most people think so anyway and i haven't been able to change your minds so eh.

Then i don't see why she is above Rafiel.

BTW, i'm going by the assumption we are using a moderately big team, and not necessarily going by draft quantity.

I think he definitely helps saving a turn or two.

boots/celerity could be used for a 4-3 person.

nothing COULD attack rafiel.

I feel bad ganging up on you, but thanks for the argument :sparkle:

I don't know what you're talking about. I think it should remain Reyson>Rafiel>Leanne. What I stated was correct. In any given section of Endgame, Leanne will vigor the same amount or less than Reyson since you need Rafiel to 1-turn without having like 5 Rescue staff users.

However, Leanne is herself quite good. All of the maps that she's in, she's crucial to low turning, which I can't really say about Reyson's 3-5, 3-7, or 3-E. Or even 4-5.

I agree it should stay that way, but you can debate rafiel is better because he holds some advantages.

[Radiant Dragon]

Um Fox was talking about 4-4 AFAIK

I stand corrected, then. I must have misread someone's post.

Nope my opinion still stands

Rafiel > Reyson is something i just don't see but most people think so anyway and i haven't been able to change your minds so eh.

I'm aware of your opinion. I was pointing out a typo in your post.

Its the same as if they get it on their enemy phase.

No. He lets them move faster through the swamp, and in the case of the Laguz, allows them to Grass more and face more combat.

Edited July 19, 2011 by Radiant Kitty

[Florete]

I find he makes no difference here, I have done 5/4 turns without Reyson.

And Rafiel makes no difference on 4-1 and possibly 1-8 and 4-4.

i'd try to argue here, but sure, not knowing the enemy position makes it hard.

Well, I'd like to point out that I've pulled off this 5 turn strategy twice and could have done it 3 times if I'd known how the Horseslayer general acts at the time. The first was HM with Aran, Titania, and Ike, second was also HM with Nephenee, Nailah, and Ike and 3rd was NM with Fiona, Soren, and Ike. It's pretty reliable. You need a unit with semi-powerful 1-2 range for the west, a competent Ike for the south, and either a powerful Laguz or someone with 1-2 range powerful enough to kill Generals for the east, although the Horseslayer General in the east is weird and other units may work there, but it needs to be tested.

Not necessarily true. Rafiel could just use Celerity/boots for movility problems. There is also the fact that the middle route isn't as crammed, and its easy to take care of rafiel if your units can kill reliably (which shouldn't be a big problem at this point).

Celerity and especially Boots are generally better on other units. Honestly, Rafiel should not be using the Boots at all.

Rafiel helps break through the wall of Generals. He doesn't need Canto here as much though, nothing should be attaking him.

That is just as fast if you let them all suicide into someone on enemy phase. I don't know how possible two turns is with either, and I don't think one turn is possible barring insane skill luck.

Rafiel being the better one means Rafiel wins in these maps. Reyson can be useful but not by much, these maps (except for 4-E-5) are easily 2 turned without a Heron. In 4-E-5 the faster and the more damage you do by turn the better meaning Rafiel > Reyson. Rafiel being better for more maps than Reyson means We should be bringing Rafiel.

We should, but considering Reyson is still reasonable because it isn't at all impossible for Rafiel to be dead by 4-E, a scenario much less likely with Reyson.

Then i don't see why she is above Rafiel.

These days, neither do I.

BTW, i'm going by the assumption we are using a moderately big team, and not necessarily going by draft quantity.

Of course. The 4-1 thing was just pointing out what little you actually need to get it done fast.

[Zanarkin]

I'm aware of your opinion. I was pointing out a typo in your post.

oh lol my bad

No. He lets them move faster through the swamp, and in the case of the Laguz, allows them to Grass more and face more combat.

The only one that really wants to move foward is Ike and a flier and thats just for BK. Laguz like to be untransformed for a quick Strike raise. Reyson isn't needed here, as most other units are just stalling for Strike/CEXP

[Anouleth]

Is it really possible to 1-turn 4-E-5 outside of lolEasyMode?

[dondon151]

That 1 turn clear is probably not happening on most playthroughs considering that team isn't really good for the other 4-E maps. leopoldstotch also maxed basically everything out, which is not usually going to happen, particularly for units like Sigrun and Rolf.

I'd argue Rafiel is completely incompetent here. 3 units can handle it in 5 turns (Ike + Nailah + one more for West, Titania will do) and Rafiel won't help that one bit. I don't know if it can be 4-turned, but if it can, it's unlikely to be due to Rafiel because it would be too hard to defend him.

It's really not that hard to defend Rafiel.

No. This is the map in 4-E where Reyson wins. There just isn't the right space for Rafiel to make good use of his first turn, and then Reyson's flight + Canto wins it.

I doubt it. There's plenty of space where Rafiel can get a 4 unit vigor on turn 1, especially if you clear out all of the generals in the middle section on player phase. Reyson being able to go over to the sides is a negligible advantage because that leaves the other side relatively weaker, and it won't make completion any faster. I'm pretty sure the standard efficient completion on 4-E-1 is 3 or 4 turns; there's no way that Reyson is capable of making it faster, but Rafiel definitely has the potential to help 2 turn the map with the proper supporting units, and 3 turns is easy enough with the proper units. 4 turns is almost trivial.

Rafiel is not going to have the Boots or Celerity in 1-E.

That really doesn't matter. You're not going to 6 turn the map without Rafiel, even if he needs to be rescued and carried over the gaps.

Edited July 19, 2011 by dondon151

[Florete]

It's really not that hard to defend Rafiel.

FoW, Pegasus Knights. Maybe not 'that hard' depending on the player but definitely harder than usual, and in the strategy I outlined it's practically impossible (and unnecessary) to use him without him getting hit.

I doubt it. There's plenty of space where Rafiel can get a 4 unit vigor on turn 1, especially if you clear out all of the generals in the middle section on player phase.

What's the point? The middle section is easy enough to handle on enemy phase. You only two or three units to get rid of everything by the end of turn 2 without a Heron.

Reyson being able to go over to the sides is a negligible advantage because that leaves the other side relatively weaker, and it won't make completion any faster. I'm pretty sure the standard efficient completion on 4-E-1 is 3 or 4 turns; there's no way that Reyson is capable of making it faster, but Rafiel definitely has the potential to help 2 turn the map with the proper supporting units, and 3 turns is easy enough with enough axe users. 4 turns is almost trivial.

This is probably accurate. I didn't really consider a 2 turn clear.

[Anouleth]

FoW, Pegasus Knights. Maybe not 'that hard' depending on the player but definitely harder than usual, and in the strategy I outlined it's practically impossible (and unnecessary) to use him without him getting hit.

IIRC, the Falcoknights on the south side don't move and there's only one or two on the LHS (where you won't send Rafy anyway).

What's the point? The middle section is easy enough to handle on enemy phase. You only two or three units to get rid of everything by the end of turn 2 without a Heron.

Since some of the enemies don't move, that actually seems impossible. Catalena certainly doesn't move. Maybe if you gave Ike Celerity.

[Radiant Dragon]

Since some of the enemies don't move, that actually seems impossible. Catalena certainly doesn't move. Maybe if you gave Ike Celerity.

I believe Red Fox was referring to 4-E-1 here.

[dondon151]

What's the point? The middle section is easy enough to handle on enemy phase. You only two or three units to get rid of everything by the end of turn 2 without a Heron.

What about the top of the map where you can't reach it on turn 1 with multiple units without using Rafiel?

[incognit0]

And Rafiel makes no difference on 4-1 and possibly 1-8 and 4-4.

Well, I'd like to point out that I've pulled off this 5 turn strategy twice and could have done it 3 times if I'd known how the Horseslayer general acts at the time. The first was HM with Aran, Titania, and Ike, second was also HM with Nephenee, Nailah, and Ike and 3rd was NM with Fiona, Soren, and Ike. It's pretty reliable. You need a unit with semi-powerful 1-2 range for the west, a competent Ike for the south, and either a powerful Laguz or someone with 1-2 range powerful enough to kill Generals for the east, although the Horseslayer General in the east is weird and other units may work there, but it needs to be tested.

Celerity and especially Boots are generally better on other units. Honestly, Rafiel should not be using the Boots at all.

We should, but considering Reyson is still reasonable because it isn't at all impossible for Rafiel to be dead by 4-E, a scenario much less likely with Reyson.

5 turning 4-1 is solid, if unambitious. I would love to see you 4 turn it without Rafiel, considering how easy it is to use him to get a 4-turn clear. Therefore to say that he makes no difference is definitely not true, although I agree on 1-8.

Also, Rafiel will not fall behind in 4-4 without Boots (which should go to your main flyer in the desert anyways) or Celerity (which I think he has a case for) because Vika and Tormod have nothing better to do than rescue drop him on the first turn. Vika will be shoving him every turn after that. Besides, if you want to 6 turn (well within reach) you need Rafiel to get Nailah up to the top stairs by turn 2 EP, among other things he does towards a 6-turn clear.

As for 4-E, Rafiel is necessary to kill Hetzel and the other sleep bishop turn 1. Also, boosting Reyson's tier position relative to Rafiel because 'it is not impossible for Rafiel to be dead' is ridiculous sandbagging. Any smart player will keep Rafiel alive.

(Nevermind)

Edited July 19, 2011 by incognito123

[Radiant Dragon]

Rafiel is going south, where there are many stationary enemies and enemies who prefer to attack Provoke Ike. In addition, Ike will kill the only Peg (besides the boss who attacks Provoke Ike over Rafiel) on turn 1 EP.

I call bull on enemies -any enemy- attacking Ike over Rafiel, even with Provoke.

[Zanarkin]

I call bull on enemies -any enemy- attacking Ike over Rafiel, even with Provoke.

My restarts of 4-1 on my desperate attempt at not having to restart it agree with this. That Halb did not attack Nailah over Rafiel despite her having provoke.

[incognit0]

I call bull on enemies -any enemy- attacking Ike over Rafiel, even with Provoke.

Have you ever tried it? Last time I did 4-1, I sat Ike next to the druids with Rafiel (and also Nailah, who couldn't counter) in range. They attacked Ike. Although I can't remember whether or not the boss was able to attack Rafiel, because I killed her on player phase.

(To be clear, it is not something that I understand or can get to work with every enemy. But it definitely works sometimes when I do not understand it.)

Edited July 19, 2011 by incognito123

[Radiant Dragon]

Have you ever tried it? Last time I did 4-1, I sat Ike next to the druids with Rafiel (and also Nailah, who couldn't counter) in range. They attacked Ike.

I don't think those Druids move.

[incognit0]

I don't think those Druids move.

So then I was wrong about Provoke and its usefulness, okay. The larger point is that keeping Rafiel alive is not an issue, and beyond that, he is necessary to 4-turn 4-1. Do you agree with me on that?

[Radiant Dragon]

So then I was wrong about Provoke and its usefulness, okay. The larger point is that keeping Rafiel alive is not an issue, and beyond that, he is necessary to 4-turn 4-1. Do you agree with me on that?

I agree keeping Rafiel alive is not too difficult, but since I personally haven't 4-turned 4-1, I can't say whether or not he's necessary. He'd certainly be helpful, though.

[Florete]

IIRC, the Falcoknights on the south side don't move and there's only one or two on the LHS (where you won't send Rafy anyway).

Since some of the enemies don't move, that actually seems impossible. Catalena certainly doesn't move. Maybe if you gave Ike Celerity.

All the Falcoknights move except the boss.

It was 4-E-1, but that's why I said 2 or 3 units; get them on turn 2.

What about the top of the map where you can't reach it on turn 1 with multiple units without using Rafiel?

Notice my post said turn 2. Because you can reach them in 2 turns, the amount of time given to clear the map.

5 turning 4-1 is solid, if unambitious. I would love to see you 4 turn it without Rafiel, considering how easy it is to use him to get a 4-turn clear. Therefore to say that he makes no difference is definitely not true, although I agree on 1-8.

'Easy?' Please, enlighten me as to how 'easy' it is to 4 turn 4-1 and we can continue here. I'm not saying it's impossible because I'm sure it is possible. I'm sure it's also possible without Rafiel if you have enough units because the map isn't big.

Also, Rafiel will not fall behind in 4-4 without Boots (which should go to your main flyer in the desert anyways) or Celerity (which I think he has a case for) because Vika and Tormod have nothing better to do than rescue drop him on the first turn. Vika will be shoving him every turn after that. Besides, if you want to 6 turn (well within reach) you need Rafiel to get Nailah up to the top stairs by turn 2 EP, among other things he does towards a 6-turn clear.

With my team of Ike, Soren, Tormod, Fiona, and Oliver, I was able to clear the map in 7 turns, and 6 may have been possible if I'd looked harder. This was NM, of course, but in a normal HM run your team should be stronger than 2 Archsages, a staffbot that can't be used until turn 5, and a weaker-than-Titania Paladin.

tl;dr 6 turns with Rafiel does not exactly sound impressive. Though I agree with you on the point about Rescue-dropping him. Didn't think of that.

As for 4-E, Rafiel is necessary to kill Hetzel and the other sleep bishop turn 1.

Hetzel can be killed by a flier with Boots, Celerity, and Parity on turn 1 (a good use for Boots, anyway). The other Sleep staff should be easily enough tanked by someone with Pure Water and killed on turn 2.

Also, boosting Reyson's tier position relative to Rafiel because 'it is not impossible for Rafiel to be dead' is ridiculous sandbagging. Any smart player will keep Rafiel alive.

What the hell is this? I've already agreed that they should be closer for one. And I'm not using that to sandbag Rafiel at all. In the event we're debating Rafiel's position, of course I wouldn't assume he dies, but when debating Reyson's position that's a much more reasonable possibility to assume.

I don't think those Druids move.

They do, but since Rafiel does not exactly have Res problems, they're not the enemies we're worried about. No physical enemy will attack Ike over Rafiel, Provoke or not.

[Radiant Dragon]

What the hell is this? I've already agreed that they should be closer for one. And I'm not using that to sandbag Rafiel at all. In the event we're debating Rafiel's position, of course I wouldn't assume he dies, but when debating Reyson's position that's a much more reasonable possibility to assume.

Personally, I don't think it's a good idea to assume we'll go on without units (except in SD), unless there's a very good reason for doing so.

They do, but since Rafiel does not exactly have Res problems, they're not the enemies we're worried about. No physical enemy will attack Ike over Rafiel, Provoke or not.

I'm pretty sure Rafiel is still ORKO'd by even Magic enemies unless he's transformed, since 13-14 Resistance is not very stellar.