OMG it's a tier list

[Fenrir]

It doesn't work like that unless Boyd or Gatrie are at risk of being OHKO (Hint: they aren't.). While Boyd's HP lead provides similar (but generally inferior) durability against mages, Gatrie's physical durability is leagues above Boyd's. Forever. This is most important early on, where Boyd is at serious risk of being 3 or 4HKO and Gatrie is nigh invincible. Boyd's durability does become solid post-promotion, I'll grant.

We could, but Shinon would generally prefer to Bexp slow-play for Str. IMO, Oscar (T) is probably one of the better early crown candidates.

I'm not terribly familiar with RD's chapters, so I'll defer a chapter-by-chapter analysis to someone else. But I'm not convinced that Boyd (T) is better than Gatrie in 4-1 (the most likely destination, I reckon).

- Boyd loses durability to Gatrie forever, despite his HP leads. But Boyd is serviceably durable post-promotion, so this isn't a big win for Gatrie later on.

- Res, Skl, Lck, and particularly Mag aren't very important, but Boyd's growths don't exceed Gatrie's with the exception of Lck (by .10).

- Gatrie's tier 2 caps are overcome with an early Master Seal (which he is a good candidate for). Gatrie's tier 3 caps aren't relevant until 4-4 at the earliest. Let's examine when Boyd (T) can exceed Gatrie's tier 3 Str and Spd caps:

Str: 20/8

Spd: 20/5 with a Speedwings, 20/10 without.

So, a 20/5 Boyd (T) with Speedwings will be approximately offensively equivalent to a 14/10 Gatrie. I reiterate: Boyd (T) is unlikely to see offensive advantages over Gatrie until 4-4, at the earliest.

Gatrie gets his crown, at earliest, in 3-4. But he isn't crippled if he has to wait until 3-8 for a crown. And Gatrie's promotion gives him a boost that Boyd (T) can't catch up with until he promotes himself. Consider a 3-8 Crown scenario:

Boyd (T) - Level 15, Speedwings

53 HP, 27.9 Str, 24.7 Skl, 24.7 Spd, 15.4 Lck, 18 Def, 8.6 Res

Gatrie - Level 15/1

49 HP, 29 Str, 22.25 Skl, 25 Spd, 16.5 Lck, 29 Def, 16.75 Res

A benefit to Gatrie taking a crown in 3-8 is that we don't have to give him any Bexp or kill favoritism. 5 levels in 7 chapters is pretty trivial.

I don't see Gatrie having any problem reaching 14/7 by 4-1 with a crown in 3-4. He has 7 chapters to gain 6 levels (at a rather slow rate, I'll grant). Reaching 15/6 by 4-1 with a crown in 3-8 does seem more difficult (5 levels in 4 chapters). But is a 20/1 Boyd in 4-1 that much more likely without Bexp (13 levels in 11 chapters, granted, at a faster rate)?

Stop basing your argument around that 3-4 Crown, He's not getting it. convince me he's better than haar first.

Boyd shouldn't be so fragile that he's dying on us though. I don't think there's a spot you would put boyd where 8 people can reach. So in my opinion durability shouldn't come into consideration when comparing these two.

Annouleth covered this.

Actually, when it comes to mages. I see boyd more durable, and mages are the only way either of these guys die.

I don't know why we're comparing Boyd to Gatrie when Gatrie is at his absolute best. & since we are, shouldn't it be advantage Boyd, since he's got 15 levels left? You also fail to factor BEXP in the situation, which i hope boyd is getting for speed.

5 levels in 7 chapters may not seem like much, but He's not picking up a full level in 3-2/3-4 and probably a couple other stages. On 3-7 he's not going to be near the front due to lack of movement, so he's not picking up as much as Boyd would here either.

He needs level 15 for a cap, so stop saying 14. It may be possible he gets a little blessed, but it's also possible he needs level 17 to get it. I like my chances of Boyd getting to 20/1 over Gatrie getting 15/6 a hell of a lot more.

Edited July 20, 2011 by Fenrir

[Junkhead]

Boyd T should go above Gatrie.

-Boyd has no problem with speed

-He has more offense than Gatrie

-Has more move

-Has no problems doubling all the way into endgame

-He doesn't need the Crown in 3-3 to remain useful.

While I don't entirely disagree that Boyd (T) > Gatrie (N/T), I have to point out that a few of those statements are flawed. For one, Boyd does hae Spd issues. It's just that they are far more redeemable than his average, untransfered version. Until then, their offense is just about tied. Gatrie has it very easy coming to cap his Spd. Once capped, the 4-3 Crown is there to promote him and make him the Grim Reaper of the battlefield. His only problem and always was Mov- He just needs Celerity and he's all set.

Boyd may cap his HP quickly, consume a Secret Book and start BEXP slowplaying for Spd. He also needs a Speedwings. Gatrie still has a massive durability lead, and Boyd's only noticeable advantage is doubling things naturally by Endgame.

[Fenrir]

the 4-3 Crown is there to promote him and make him the Grim Reaper of the battlefield. His only problem and always was Mov- He just needs Celerity and he's all set.

Boyd may cap his HP quickly, consume a Secret Book and start BEXP slowplaying for Spd. He also needs a Speedwings. Gatrie still has a massive durability lead, and Boyd's only noticeable advantage is doubling things naturally by Endgame.

I assume you mean 3-3? I think celerity and the crown are better for haar. You wanted a grim reaper...

Boyd should be doubling MUCH sooner than endgame. As for the durability, I don't know why this is a huge deal, Titan/Haar and even the hawks can absorb the enemies force. so why does Boyd need to also?

[Junkhead]

I assume you mean 3-3? I think celerity and the crown are better for haar. You wanted a grim reaper...

As for the durability, I don't know why this is a huge deal, Titan/Haar and even the hawks can absorb the enemies force. so why does Boyd need to also?

I'd counter that with "Haar doesn't need it" but that would be a poor reason by itself, because, technically, no one needs anything. It's just a matter of who puts said resource to a better use, or what resource makes a unit functional and competent. And that's exactly what it makes Gatrie: Competent, as if he wasn't already. Haar would use it to become what, overkill? As if 9 Mov already wasn't? Because Titania can use it as well to overcome certain movement penalties that Flight doesn't have to suffer. kk

@Bolded: It's not a big deal at all, actually. We're just pointing out important, noticeable advantages Gatrie carries over Boyd. And if you're having Titania, Haar and the Hawks do all the work, then why bother implying the Mov advantage and poured resources matter on a unit that won't bother to step on the frontlines? Don't you think that'd be a waste?

Edited July 20, 2011 by Saber

[Zanarkin]

While I don't entirely disagree that Boyd (T) > Gatrie (N/T), I have to point out that a few of those statements are flawed. For one, Boyd does hae Spd issues. It's just that they are far more redeemable than his average, untransfered version. Until then, their offense is just about tied. Gatrie has it very easy coming to cap his Spd. Once capped, the 4-3 Crown is there to promote him and make him the Grim Reaper of the battlefield. His only problem and always was Mov- He just needs Celerity and he's all set.

Boyd may cap his HP quickly, consume a Secret Book and start BEXP slowplaying for Spd. He also needs a Speedwings. Gatrie still has a massive durability lead, and Boyd's only noticeable advantage is doubling things naturally by Endgame.

Hmmm, About the speed thing i believe to have cleaered it up in ne of the responses. Also, Gatrie has a lot of competition for the crown. He won't likely get it when there are other candidates like Titania or Haar. As for Celerity, Haar and Titania also like it as well. His speed grows reliably i would say, so he is doubling most things not called swordmasters at around mid Part 3.

[Junkhead]

Titania and Haar don't really mind waiting a few chapters before they promote. In my playthrough log, I had them both promote through natural means, both at 3-11. Up until then, they actually performed very well. I used the Crown on Heather or Soren.

[aku chi]

Stop basing your argument around that 3-4 Crown, He's not getting it. convince me he's better than haar first.

I haven't "based my argument" on Gatrie receiving the 3-3 crown, I've mentioned it (along with Gatrie receiving the 3-6 crown via 3-7) as reasonable possibilities. But I don't think Haar is a very good candidate for the 3-3 crown, anyway. Haar has some room to grow in second tier, where he'd like to Bexp slowplay for Str and Spd. Haar should be able to promote naturally before 3-8, making using an early crown on him wasteful if you're training two of Gatrie, Oscar (T), or Soren (T), IMO. Haar can benefit from the extra skill capacity of third tier in 3-4 (for Celerity and Savior), but that's a pretty small gain.

Boyd shouldn't be so fragile that he's dying on us though. I don't think there's a spot you would put boyd where 8 people can reach. So in my opinion durability shouldn't come into consideration when comparing these two.

Regardless of whatever Boyd should be, he is at serious risk of dying. In 3-P, for instance, base Boyd (T) is 3HKO'd by several enemies and at least 5HKO'd by every enemy. Boyd also faces crit from Swordmasters, Snipers, and Halberdiers who can deal him serious damage. Things improve only slowly for Boyd on the defensive front until he promotes. Base Gatrie, meanwhile, is 4HKO by the Mages, 5-6HKO by the tougher physical enemies, and takes trivial damage from enemies with crit against him (and doesn't get crit as often). Needless to say, Gatrie becomes more nearly indestructible after promotion.

Actually, when it comes to mages. I see boyd more durable, and mages are the only way either of these guys die.

Your vision needs to be corrected, then. There exists no reasonable scenario where Gatrie takes more %HP from a magic attack than Boyd. Gatrie has a commanding Res lead that more than makes up for Boyd's HP lead. And Gatrie's comparitive magical durability temporarily skyrockets when he is at tier 3 and Boyd isn't (+4 HP, +4 Res).

I don't know why we're comparing Boyd to Gatrie when Gatrie is at his absolute best. & since we are, shouldn't it be advantage Boyd, since he's got 15 levels left? You also fail to factor BEXP in the situation, which i hope boyd is getting for speed.

We're comparing Gatrie and Boyd in the totality of their shared availability. I've already agreed that Boyd (T) is more valuable than Gatrie in 4-4 and 4-E. I'm arguing that Boyd (T) doesn't achieve any notable offensive leads until 4-4. If you believe differently: make a counter-argument.

He needs level 15 for a cap, so stop saying 14. It may be possible he gets a little blessed, but it's also possible he needs level 17 to get it. I like my chances of Boyd getting to 20/1 over Gatrie getting 15/6 a hell of a lot more.

If Gatrie is to be promoted in 3-4 via the 3-3 crown, him being at level 15 is unlikely. Promoting him at level 14 instead (probably with a level finished off by Bexp) makes the most sense.

[Fenrir]

then why bother implying the Mov advantage and poured resources matter on a unit that won't bother to step on the frontlines? Don't you think that'd be a waste?

Aren't you implying boyd and gatrie BOTH useless here, and Gatrie will bother, but can't reach the frontlines in said scenario.

[Zanarkin]

Titania and Haar don't really mind waiting a few chapters before they promote. In my playthrough log, I had them both promote through natural means, both at 3-11. Up until then, they actually performed very well. I used the Crown on Heather or Soren.

Hmmm Haar benefits a ton, including being able to double some Bosses. Titania too. Adding Soren and heather there, just adds to the fact there is alot of competition for said crown.

[Junkhead]

Aren't you implying boyd and gatrie BOTH useless here, and Gatrie will bother, but can't reach the frontlines in said scenario.

No, I'm not saying they're useless at all. I'm just comparing them to see who is better. =P

We're comparing because we want to see who's more competetent as a frontliner. Otherwise, what's the point? You might as well have Mages, who have flawless Accuracy and somewhat decent chip.

Hmmm Haar benefits a ton, including being able to double some Bosses. Titania too. Adding Soren and heather there, just adds to the fact there is alot of competition for said crown.

It was just an example that they don't really need it to be much more better than they already are. Titania's caps get her to double and 1RKO most enemies for most of Part 3. Haar's 24 AS stops him from doubling starting at 3-8 (Depite 21 AS Halberdiers and Warriors being seen at the start of 3-5), by the time he can promote naturally.

[Fenrir]

I haven't "based my argument" on Gatrie receiving the 3-3 crown, I've mentioned it (along with Gatrie receiving the 3-6 crown via 3-7) as reasonable possibilities. But I don't think Haar is a very good candidate for the 3-3 crown, anyway. Haar has some room to grow in second tier, where he'd like to Bexp slowplay for Str and Spd. Haar should be able to promote naturally before 3-8, making using an early crown on him wasteful if you're training two of Gatrie, Oscar (T), or Soren (T), IMO. Haar can benefit from the extra skill capacity of third tier in 3-4 (for Celerity and Savior), but that's a pretty small gain.

Regardless of whatever Boyd should be, he is at serious risk of dying. In 3-P, for instance, base Boyd (T) is 3HKO'd by several enemies and at least 5HKO'd by every enemy. Boyd also faces crit from Swordmasters, Snipers, and Halberdiers who can deal him serious damage. Things improve only slowly for Boyd on the defensive front until he promotes. Base Gatrie, meanwhile, is 4HKO by the Mages, 5-6HKO by the tougher physical enemies, and takes trivial damage from enemies with crit against him (and doesn't get crit as often). Needless to say, Gatrie becomes more nearly indestructible after promotion.

Your vision needs to be corrected, then. There exists no reasonable scenario where Gatrie takes more %HP from a magic attack than Boyd. Gatrie has a commanding Res lead that more than makes up for Boyd's HP lead. And Gatrie's comparitive magical durability temporarily skyrockets when he is at tier 3 and Boyd isn't (+4 HP, +4 Res).

We're comparing Gatrie and Boyd in the totality of their shared availability. I've already agreed that Boyd (T) is more valuable than Gatrie in 4-4 and 4-E. I'm arguing that Boyd (T) doesn't achieve any notable offensive leads until 4-4. If you believe differently: make a counter-argument.

If Gatrie is to be promoted in 3-4 via the 3-3 crown, him being at level 15 is unlikely. Promoting him at level 14 instead (probably with a level finished off by Bexp) makes the most sense.

As Ulki mentioned, he also can double the bosses better(along with Celerity/Savior)

At 3-P Boyd is at his absolute worse, he is always getting better since he has 7 more levels to grow(starts at 8 vs 10, and gets the benefit of levels 20/15-20/20)

Oh your right, sorry i made a mistake in my math.

Boyd is always always doing better against armors starting at 3-2 with a hammer. I'm not sure how fast he usually grows since i haven't used him in a long time. But at 4-1 Boyd should be doubling everything at 20-1(If properly BEXP'd) whereas Gatrie needs a 15/6 that I can't see happening, from 3-8 through 3-E how the fucks he supposed to get 5 levels?(4 maps there) BEXP isn't happening in 3rd tier either.

I still don't see him with that 3-3 crown. but that is the likely scenario.

Edited July 20, 2011 by Fenrir

[Dark Sage]

@Anouleth about the Aran stuff: You have convinced me that Aran is not that bad and I'll give up the argument. He's fine where he is for now.

[aku chi]

As Ulki mentioned, he also can double the bosses better(along with Celerity/Savior)

But Haar isn't guranteed to gain Speed in excess of his tier 2 cap from the 3-3 crown, even with the Speedwings. Haar really wants some time in tier 2 to reach his Spd cap. And Haar needs more than maxed tier 2 Spd + Master Crown to double Lombroso (the only relevant boss - Ike can kill Callum in 3-4), which is highly unlikely.

Boyd is always always doing better against armors starting at 3-2 with a hammer.

Gatrie can also wield the Hammer at base. But on that subject, Gatrie can wield the Horseslayer and other special lances that Boyd cannot.

I'm not sure how fast he usually grows since i haven't used him in a long time. But at 4-1 Boyd should be doubling everything at 20-1(If properly BEXP'd) whereas Gatrie needs a 15/6 that I can't see happening, from 3-8 through 3-E how the fucks he supposed to get 5 levels?(4 maps there) BEXP isn't happening in 3rd tier either.

I still don't see him with that 3-3 crown. but that is the likely scenario.

It's possible that a Gatrie crowned in 3-8 will be inferior to Boyd (T) with a Speedwings in 4-1. A Gatrie crowned in 3-4 will not be. Oh, if Gatrie doesn't quite have the Spd to double most of the enemies in 4-1, he can always go to 4-P (though he will be worthless in 4-3) or 4-2 to be more useful. Boyd (T) would still win this first endgame chapter, by virtue of being useful in a harder chapter, but it won't be a large advantage.

Edited July 20, 2011 by aku chi

[Fenrir]

But Haar isn't guranteed to gain Speed in excess of his tier 2 cap from the 3-3 crown, even with the Speedwings. Haar really wants some time in tier 2 to reach his Spd cap. And Haar needs more than maxed tier 2 Spd + Master Crown to double Lombroso (the only relevant boss - Ike can kill Callum in 3-4), which is highly unlikely.

Gatrie can also wield the Hammer at base. But on that subject, Gatrie can wield the Horseslayer and other special lances that Boyd cannot.

It's possible that a Gatrie crowned in 3-8 will be inferior to Boyd (T) with a Speedwings in 4-1. A Gatrie crowned in 3-4 will not be. Oh, if Gatrie doesn't quite have the Spd to double most of the enemies in 4-1, he can always go to 4-P (though he will be worthless in 4-3) or 4-2 to be more useful. Boyd (T) would still win this first endgame chapter, by virtue of being useful in a harder chapter, but it won't be a large advantage.

Isn't it possible to give haar a horseslayer to KO lombroso? even though he'll be unable to kill him on enemy turn. Alternatively, haar gets a wing/crown and needs just 1 level of speed during 3-4 no amazingly farfetched.(if he doesn't get this wing boyd does, and boyd with a wing on 3-2 is demolishing everything for the rest of the game.)

the horseslayer and all those other imaginary special lances of yours. Is there a unicorn lance?

It's way more than a damn possibility.(also it would be "with a speedwing[no S] or with speedwings) but if gatrie goes to silver or hawk army he gets only 1 stage he can contribute, so boyd still is beating him by a mile in P4

Edited July 21, 2011 by Fenrir

[Radiant Dragon]

the horseslayer and all those other imaginary special lances of yours. Is there a unicorn lance?

No, but there's a Brave Lance.

[Junkhead]

The Brave Lance ending up on Gatrie's hands is a whole new plot twist for me.

How did I ever NOT think of that possibility.

[Zanarkin]

No, but there's a Brave Lance.

And there is a Brave Axe.

I don't think these two weapons could or should be used as arguments for a character.

[Radiant Dragon]

And there is a Brave Axe.

You're not going to have the Brave Axe until 3-7, though.

[Fenrir]

No, but there's a Brave Lance.

I don't see how it winds up in Gatrie's hands. But potentially it could be useful.

And there is a Brave Axe.

I don't think these two weapons could or should be used as arguments for a character.

I see no reason why not, but nobody should be basing there arguments around them, not enough uses.

[Zanarkin]

I see no reason why not, but nobody should be basing there arguments around them, not enough uses.

There is plenty my dear friend, its called Harmene

[-Cynthia-]

Hard not to give the 3-3 Crown to Haar, but Gatrie can take a Crown in 3-7.

Gatrie(T) should probably go up a bit anyway, 22 AS combined with his high Str means he's ORKOing or nearly ORKOing Generals in 3-1 (and ORKOing all the Sages and stuff too).

Edit:Derp

Edited July 21, 2011 by -Cynthia-

[Fenrir]

Hard not to give the 3-3 Crown to Haar, but Gatrie can take a Crown in 3-7.

Gatrie(T) should probably go up a bit anyway, 22 AS combined with his high Str means he's ORKOing or nearly ORKOing Generals in 2-1 (and ORKOing all the Sages and stuff too).

I assume you meant 3-1

I can see him going up, but Jill(N) needs to go up first

[Lord Raven]

...why? Especially over Naesala..?

Edited July 21, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Fenrir]

...why? Especially over Naesala..?

I like Gatrie(T) more than Naesala, Haar and Jill are better on the desert stage with 2 range anyways.

[Junkhead]

Hard not to give the 3-3 Crown to Haar, but Gatrie can take a Crown in 3-7.

Gatrie(T) should probably go up a bit anyway, 22 AS combined with his high Str means he's ORKOing or nearly ORKOing Generals in 3-1 (and ORKOing all the Sages and stuff too).

Edit:Derp

I think it should be the other way around. Haar can sit on his 24 AS cap until 3-7. Gatrie can't simply sit at that crappy 23 AS, where it stopped doublig at 3-3.