OMG it's a tier list

[Chiki]

What does this playthrough have to do with my statement at all? I am claiming that using the Energy Drop and Dracoshield and Seraph Robe on people other than Jill saves turns in comparison to not using them at all. Thus, using them still has an opportunity cost. If you give all those resources to Jill and save turns with her, that doesn't mean anything since those resources can still save turns in other locations.

Oh, okay. I seem to have misunderstood your statement.

Edward leans far less on Leonardo and Micaiah than Jill does on the people she needs to help her save turns. Jill does not save turns single-handedly ever in Part 1, she is only capable of saving turns because she is dropping people who can actually do thing such as Tauroneo, or Micaiah, or the Black Knight. Jill is highly reliant on Sothe to steal items for her to make those turncount savings such as the Energy Drop, the Master Seal, and the first Seraph Robe.

Assuming LTCs, it's inefficient to get the Energy Drop. She only gets the Master Seal, Seraph Robe and Dracoshield.

Also Jill was only so useful in 3-13 since you rigged a Stun proc with her. Which brings me onto another issue with Jill, namely that she's RNG reliant in order to make some of her turncount savings since she relies on growths. So Jill is not going to save all those turns in every playthrough.

Tauroneo needs a Luna proc too, so that chapter is RNG reliant no matter what.

You do not have to train Nolan at all. On those chapters where Jill is present, in comparison to dondon's 0% growth LP, you only saved:

1-7 1

3-6 1

3-12 5

3-13 2

4-P 2

4-3 4

4-E-1 2

A total of 16 turns, and certainly not all down to Jill being trained, especially the Part 4 turncounts

All of those except 1-7 were down to Jill being trained (and for 1-7 she needed to be promoted). In Part 4, Jill needs a certain amount of might to one round enemies.

In 4-P, Jill is needed for the eastern enemies because Skrimir cannot solo the 2-range people quickly enough in 2 turns. Secondly, Jill has to be able to kill the Steel Longbow archer in one round.

In 4-E-1, Jill has to be able to one-round Lekain with Parity, and generally have enough might to one round all sorts of enemies.

So it's 16 turns, and she is worth more than Edward.

When I played through Part 4 with one Axe wielding flier, I only got one less turn than you, so I would say it is exactly 1/16th as useful as Edward.

I checked your logs. Since you took longer, you also had more units available to use. I only had a few trained units.

Part 4 was especially difficult for me since I had only a handful of units.

Edited June 8, 2012 by Aeine

[aku chi]

I'm not entirely sure what the point of this Edward argument is. We all know that the scope of his single chapter contributions is mostly ignored just so that 1-P alone doesn't skyrocket him to the top of the tier list.

And why is that? Perhaps because "turns saved" in a LTC playthrough is not the metric we want to use to evaluate units in this tier list.

All of those except 1-7 were down to Jill being trained (and for 1-7 she needed to be promoted).

Perhaps you misunderstood Anouleth's point. His point was that dondon lacked not only trained Jill, but a trained Haar, and every other unit. If dondon had a well trained Haar in 4-P and 4-3, he would have gotten better turncounts and so the marginal value of a trained Jill is lower than the subtraction indicates. Likewise, if dondon had any units with growths, he could have completed 3-12 faster than he did. Jill doesn't "save" 5 turns in 3-12 in a playthrough with growths.

Edited June 8, 2012 by aku chi

[Anouleth]

I'm not entirely sure what the point of this Edward argument is.

Nor do I. If Aeine actually believes that saving turns is a good way to measure the quality of a unit, he should have no problem with Edward being the best Dawn Brigade.

But I am willing to extend an olive branch. How about we say that Edward is just the second best Dawn Brigade unit?

(also I think it's funny)

We all know that the scope of his single chapter contributions is mostly ignored just so that 1-P alone doesn't skyrocket him to the top of the tier list.

And also because this is not a low turn count tier list.

[Chiki]

Nor do I. If Aeine actually believes that saving turns is a good way to measure the quality of a unit, he should have no problem with Edward being the best Dawn Brigade.

But I am willing to extend an olive branch. How about we say that Edward is just the second best Dawn Brigade unit?

(also I think it's funny)

And also because this is not a low turn count tier list.

I thought we were talking about LTC tier lists. :p

[Anouleth]

I thought we were talking about LTC tier lists. :p

Well, it seemed to me that was the kind of list you wanted. Hence you talking about how we should only consider giving all the resources to Jill.

[Chiki]

Well, it seemed to me that was the kind of list you wanted. Hence you talking about how we should only consider giving all the resources to Jill.

I think we're going off topic, so it's best if we stop here. You can make a tier list like that, if you want.

[aku chi]

If Mia (N) moves below Oscar (T), what should happen with Mia (T)? That +2 Str is nothing to sneeze at. It won't affect Mia's Part 4, but it certainly helps her Part 3 (especially since the additional Skl and Spd makes it even easier for her to Bexp for Str and Def). I think Mia (T) < Reyson is an easy argument to make, but her next "easy" comparison is with Ulki (T).

[Anouleth]

If Mia (N) moves below Oscar (T), what should happen with Mia (T)? That +2 Str is nothing to sneeze at. It won't affect Mia's Part 4, but it certainly helps her Part 3 (especially since the additional Skl and Spd makes it even easier for her to Bexp for Str and Def). I think Mia (T) < Reyson is an easy argument to make, but her next "easy" comparison is with Ulki (T).

The +2STR doesn't really make the difference between ORKOing and not ORKOing, and even if she did she still lags behind in terms of movement, 1-2 range, durability.

It could go either way I guess.

[Starwave]

On Gareth vs Kurthnaga: Night Tide is virtually useless. With all the powerhouses you have at this point of the game, it's extremely unlikely to come to any use, and Kurthnaga doesn't even have anything aside from that. No, not even 4-E-3, since there are few situations where blocking Dragons actually helps in any way (and his poor move doesn't help). I once used him in a draft and even there the only uses he had were a couple Shoves and keeping Rafiel alive against Ashera.

Gareth is not very good himself, but Blood Tide has noticeable and significant stat boosts that can very often either cut a turn or two or simply add reliability with +10 Hit. Although he's not at all accurate, he also has a chance to hit pretty hard himself. A 2-3 turn clear of 4-E-5 is not necessarily "assumed," but when one can help it while another can't, advantage goes to the former.

Thanks. I should have known better than to question this tier list without backup information. Being constantly wrong is simultaneously humbling and depressing at the same time.

... sheesh i gotta play FE10 more.

But I am willing to extend an olive branch. How about we say that Edward is just the second best Dawn Brigade unit?

Haha i'd be all for that for obvious reasons. It baffles me why Aran is higher than him, but there's probably a good reason (though i'm gonna do my research before trying argue this)

Edited June 10, 2012 by Starwave

[Dark Sage]

Ok, Oscar (T) vs Mia

--/12 Oscar (T) - 38 HP, 22 Str, 7 Mag, 24 Skl, 23 Spd, 18 Luck, 17 Def, 11 Res

w/Steel Lance: 32 Atk, 163 Hit, 12 Crit, 23 AS, 79 Avoid

w/Steel Greatlance: 36 Atk, 153 Hit, 12 Crit, 23 AS, 79 Avoid

w/Short Spear: 32 Atk, 138 Hit, 23 AS, 12 Crit, 79 Avoid

--/7 Mia - 34 HP, 17 Str, 5 Mag, 26 Skl, 28 Spd, 18 Luck, 13 Def, 8 Res

w/Steel Sword: 26 Atk, 190 Hit, 23 Crit, 28 AS, 89 Avoid

w/Wo Dao: 24 Atk, 195 hit, 43 Crit, 28 AS, 89 Avoid

Mia also has Soren's Adept, with which she has a 48.16% chance of proccing in a single round.

3-P:

1x Swordmaster lvl 7 (Steel Sword)

HP 33, Atk 25, AS 22, Hit 142, Avo 57, DEF 15, RES 20, Crit 21, Ddg 13

1x Warrior lvl 8 (Steel Axe)

HP 40, Atk 33, AS 20, Hit 129, Avo 54, DEF 15, RES 9, Crit 10, Ddg 14

1x Halberdier lvl 8 (Javelin)

HP 36, Atk 26, AS 20, Hit 118, Avo 53, DEF 18, RES 13, Crit 15, Ddg 13

1x Lance General lvl 7 (Steel Lance)

HP 37, Atk 30, AS 18, Hit 131, Avo 49, DEF 23, RES 12, Crit 9, Ddg 15

1x Warrior lvl 7 (Steel Poleax)

HP 40, Atk 36, AS 20, Hit 111, Avo 53, DEF 15, RES 9, Crit 9, Ddg 13

1x Warrior lvl 7 (Steel Axe)

HP 39, Atk 32, AS 20, Hit 126, Avo 53, DEF 15, RES 9, Crit 9, Ddg 13

1x Fire Sage lvl 6 (Elfire)

HP 31, Atk 25, AS 17, Hit 127, Avo 54, DEF 12, RES 15, Crit 8, Ddg 10

1x Sniper lvl 6 (Steel Bow, *Coin)

HP 35, Atk 29, AS 19, Hit 135, Avo 61, DEF 16, RES 11, Crit 20, Ddg 13

1x Swordmaster lvl 8 (Steel Blade)

HP 33, Atk 30, AS 23, Hit 125, Avo 70, DEF 15, RES 11, Crit 21, Ddg 14

1x Sword General lvl 8 (Steel Sword)

HP 38, Atk 28, AS 18, Hit 136, Avo 51, DEF 24, RES 13, Crit 9, Ddg 15

1x Fire Sage lvl 6 (Elfire, Vulnerary)

HP 32, Atk 25, AS 17, Hit 127, Avo 44, DEF 12, RES 15, Crit 8, Ddg 10

1x Halberdier lvl 7 (Steel Greatlance)

HP 36, Atk 33, AS 19, Hit 121, Avo 51, DEF 18, RES 13, Crit 14, Ddg 13

1x Lance General lvl 9 (Horseslayer)

HP 39, Atk 33, AS 17, Hit 119, Avo 50, DEF 23, RES 13, Crit 9, Ddg 16

3x Fire Sage lvl 7 (Elfire)

HP 32, Atk 26, AS 18, Hit 126, Avo 45, DEF 12, RES 15, Crit 8, Ddg 11

3x Lance General lvl 9 (Steel Lance)

HP 39, Atk 31, AS 18, Hit 134, Avo 52, DEF 23, RES 14, Crit 9, Ddg 16

3x Halberdier lvl 8 (Steel Lance)

HP 36, Atk 29, AS 19, Hit 133, Avo 51, DEF 18, RES 13, Crit 15, Ddg 13

2x Warrior lvl 8 (Steel Axe)

HP 40, Atk 33, AS 20, Hit 129, Avo 54, DEF 15, RES 9, Crit 10, Ddg 14

1x Lance General lvl 9 (Short Spear)

HP 39, Atk 31, AS 17, Hit 109, Avo 50, DEF 24, RES 14, Crit 9, Ddg 16

1x Bishop lvl 8 (Mend)

HP 30, Atk --, AS 16, Hit --, Avo 52, DEF 10, RES 21, Crit --, Ddg 20

1x Silvano lvl 8 (Sniper boss, *Crossbow)

HP 39, Atk 28, AS 21, Hit 149, Avo 45, DEF 18, RES 13, Crit 21, Ddg 3

First off, Oscar has the advantage of having higher move, which means he'll be able to fight the enemies sooner. Regarding their performance:

Oscar 2RKOs the Generals with a Steel Greatlance and 3RKOs with a Steel Lance or Short Spear

2RKOs the Halberdiers with a Steel Greatlance and 3RKOs with a Steel Lance or Short Spear

2RKOs the Warriors with a Steel Greatlance and 3RKOs with a Steel Lance or Short Spear

ORKOs the Sages with anything

ORKOs the Sniper with a Steel Greatlance and can counter him on EP with a Short Spear (2RKO)

2RKOs the Swordmasters with anything

3RKOs Silvano with anything

Mia on the other hand

ORKOs only an lolBishop.

6HKOs Halberdiers with a Wo Dao, meaning she needs to get 3 crits in a row. She 2RKOs the Halberdier with a Steel Sword, with a 4HKO, requiring at least one critical hit to ORKO.

2RKOs Warriors with a Steel Sword (4HKO)

2RKOs Sages with any of her weapons (but can critblick a Sage thanks to Wo Dao and Adept procs)

2RKOs Swordmasters with anything

3RKOs Silvano w/Steel Sword and 4RKOs w/Wo Dao

19RKOs the weakest General on the map with a Wo Dao, and 7RKOs that same General with a Steel Sword.

Their offense is roughly equivalent, Oscar and Mia tying against Warriors, Swordmasters and Halbs when he uses a Steel Greatlance and she uses a Steel Sword. She has critical chances and Adept procs to help out her offense, but Oscar wins against Sages, has the advangtage of 1-2 range, and 9 move and Canto. So I'd have to give the win to Oscar here.

3-1 though is a shitstomp in Oscar (T)'s favor. For starters, he can ORKO the Halberdiers, 19 AS Warriors, and Snipers at base with a Steel Greatlance. Furthermore, he can 2RKO the Generals or if he swithces to Steel, can 3RKO them, which is still a lot better than what Mia's doing. He also ORKOs the sages and Bishops as well and he does all of this with access to 1-2 range and 9 move and Canto.

In 3-2, Oscar is useful for helping Haar and Titania transport Shinon to Istvan to make a 2 turn (3 turn if Shinon fails to proc Adept). In 3-3, his mobility comes in handy for burning down the supplies quicker. 3-4 is not a good map for him admittedly and he's not that great in 3-5 since his speed cap starts to wear on him and Haar is doing most of the work anyway, but by 3-7, he should be making a comeback by taking the Crown that's stolen there.

From that point on, he'll have around 26 AS, which is enough to double for the rest of part 3. If he can extend this doubling into Part 4 (might need the 3-9 speedwing for this), then he has a pretty excellent Part 4 to boot.

Speaking of which, Oscar (T) has excellent BEXP potential. He starts out with Skill capped, and Speed 1 point away. With a Robe, he can immediately cap his HP, and if he gains one level, he has a 65% chance of capping his speed. This means you can then BEXP his strength and defense up to make up for their 35% growths. This, combined with his access to forged Steel Lances, should help cover his ORKOs against most enemy types throughout Part 3 and if he manages to continue doubling into Part 4, it should tide him over there too. He also makes a great support partner for Titania since he has both the same move and the same movement type and both parties find the increased durability from the support highly desirable.

Basically the idea is, if Oscar can keep his strength up (not all that hard to do), then he is more reliable in ORKOing than Mia and with 9 move and Canto, that should secure a spot over her.

btw I also propose Boyd (T)>Mia, although that might be a really close call.

Edited June 13, 2012 by Dark Sage

[aku chi]

From that point on, he'll have around 26 AS, which is enough to double for the rest of part 3. If he can extend this doubling into Part 4 (might need the 3-9 speedwing for this), then he has a pretty excellent Part 4 to boot.

He doesn't need the Speedwings. Assuming a Crown and 3 levels from 3-8, 3-10, 3-11, and 3-E, Oscar (T) averages 28 Spd going into Part 4. If he winds up short of that, a single Bexp level will suffice. 28 Spd doubles almost everything in 4-1 and 4-2. With another 3 levels in 4-1, Oscar (T) can have 30 Spd entering 4-4 (if he goes that path). This doubles half of the Halberdiers and Warriors. A single Bexp level will bring almost all of them into doubling range. Oscar is a poor candidate for 4-E, but it isn't difficult for him to get the 32 AS needed to double every enemy in 4-E-1. With Bexp slowplay at tier 2 to cap Str, Oscar (T) can have just enough Str entering 4-E-1 to 2HKO all of the Sages (and Bishops) with a Javelin forge.

But Part 4 is where Mia actually has some advantages over Oscar, so it's injust to stop the comparison at Part 3 (which Oscar (T) wins handily if he gets the 3-6 Master Crown). Also, if you want to argue Mia < Oscar (T), you'll need to consider Mia (T), not just Mia (N).

As for moving Boyd (T) up, I'd like to see a comparison with Nephenee (T) or Shinon first. I think Boyd (T) has a pretty good case over Nephenee (T), but I've felt that both Nephenee (N) and Nephenee (T) should move down for a while now.

[Dark Sage]

He doesn't need the Speedwings. Assuming a Crown and 3 levels from 3-8, 3-10, 3-11, and 3-E, Oscar (T) averages 28 Spd going into Part 4. If he winds up short of that, a single Bexp level will suffice. 28 Spd doubles almost everything in 4-1 and 4-2. With another 3 levels in 4-1, Oscar (T) can have 30 Spd entering 4-4 (if he goes that path). This doubles half of the Halberdiers and Warriors. A single Bexp level will bring almost all of them into doubling range. Oscar is a poor candidate for 4-E, but it isn't difficult for him to get the 32 AS needed to double every enemy in 4-E-1. With Bexp slowplay at tier 2 to cap Str, Oscar (T) can have just enough Str entering 4-E-1 to 2HKO all of the Sages (and Bishops) with a Javelin forge.

Well that's why I said he might need one, I wasn't sure if he did.

But Part 4 is where Mia actually has some advantages over Oscar, so it's injust to stop the comparison at Part 3 (which Oscar (T) wins handily if he gets the 3-6 Master Crown).

I would've continued, but I spent over an hour making the post, and I planned on getting around to it later.

Also, if you want to argue Mia < Oscar (T), you'll need to consider Mia (T), not just Mia (N).

I doubt +2 Strength actually changes anything, but ok.

As for moving Boyd (T) up, I'd like to see a comparison with Nephenee (T) or Shinon first. I think Boyd (T) has a pretty good case over Nephenee (T), but I've felt that both Nephenee (N) and Nephenee (T) should move down for a while now.

Sounds reasonable enough. I might make a comparison on that later.

[Florete]

Also, if you want to argue Mia < Oscar (T), you'll need to consider Mia (T), not just Mia (N).

I can separate the two Mias.

I've only scanned the post, but I think Mia going down a bit is overdue anyway, much as I love her. The question now is: where do they meet?

[aku chi]

I've only scanned the post, but I think Mia going down a bit is overdue anyway, much as I love her. The question now is: where do they meet?

Mia (N) under Oscar (T) was the assumption I was under. I already linked the Mia (N) vs. Janaff comparison, and it isn't hard to extrapolate to Ulki (N) > Mia (N). And Oscar (T) vs. the Hawks is an easy comparison if anybody wants to undertake it at a later point.

As for Mia (T): she can be separated from Mia (N), but does she deserve to be? With minimal Bexp use, Mia (N) is going to cap Str in tier 2 anyway, so Mia (N) and Mia (T) have nearly identical Part 4s. So how valuable in an extra 2 Atk (and a little more durability) in Part 3? One might argue that if Ulki (N) > Mia (N), should not Ulki (T) > Mia (T), since extra Atk is primarily what the two have going for them with transfers and Ulki (T) has more and isn't inhibited by caps like Mia (T).

[OrangeCrush980]

Can Sothe please be properly tiered? He's been in his joke position for half a year now and some people are taking it seriously.

[Florete]

I decided to just put both Mia's down since I don't know where Mia(T) would go otherwise, but someone can argue it if they want. And yeah, Sothe needed to get back to his real spot.

[Colonel M]

I decided to just put both Mia's down since I don't know where Mia(T) would go otherwise, but someone can argue it if they want. And yeah, Sothe needed to get back to his real spot.

I suggest below Oliver, since Sothe's fashion sense is much worse than Oliver's fashion sense of beauty.

[pikablu]

I'm arguing Boyd (N) > Marcia (T - Str, Skl, Spd)

Let's see how useful Marcia (T) is in the chapters she's in.

Chapter 2-Prologue - she is next to useless because she cannot inflict decent enough damage in Hard Mode where draco defenses shoot up (and anyways the dracos have good def - base 19). Yes even if she does get the +2 base str, she still won't have much of an advantage against the Dracomasters. With the Steel Lance, she'll have 28 Str and with the Draco, she'll be hitting them at most for 10 damage (with a damage and hit penalty due to the axes they use). She is actually more useful staying in the corner away from the axe wielders otherwise they will attack her. She won't be hitting them too often either seeing as most of them use axes, but yeah that extra speed does help her, but she's doing better in the corner. Haar, Nealuchi and Elincia are going to be the most helpful here and most importantly DO SOME DAMAGE.

Chapter 2-3 - again really why would you want to bring her along? Along with Devdan, Astrid and maybe Makalov, she's a bit of liability. If you used her at all in Chap 2-P, she'll be at most level 7 and that's just not good enough to bring in when you've already got Brave Lanced Geoffrey and Silver Axe Kieran. The goal of Chap 2-3 is not to gain exp either but to maximise Bonus Exp. She won't be helping out with that here, with the lack of healers (especially if you direct your partner units to the bottom of the screen to prevent them from reducing your BEXP and with her bad durability - at level 7 she'll have 18.6 Str and 16.6 Def, while Kieran would have 21 Str and 18 Def and Geoffrey would have 24 Str and 18 Def. With their respective best weapons at the time:

Geoffrey - Brave Lance: 34 Atk, 20 AS, 18 Def, 37 HP

Kieran - Steel Poleax: 36 Atk, 20 AS, 18 Def, 41 HP

Marcia - Steel Greatlance: 32.6 Atk, 21.3 AS (and fine yeah no speed penalty), 16.6 Def 35.4 HP

Atk and AS are NOT more important than Def and HP in Chap 2-3 because of the BEXP. In this chapter it does not matter about killing or damaging the enemies, but you will inevitably get attacked because of where your units have to go and so durability IS important and seeing as Marcia's clearly the weakest the Enemy AI will go for her, therefore she's going to be really bad for this chapter as she won't survive to the other end and kill the boss. That lower Def + HP is going to be risky to take along and cost you the most therefore and so it just isn't worth bringing her along. Another chapter where her low durability will cost her utility. Seriously this chapter should just be done with Geo and Kieran to maximise BEXP.

Chapter 2-F, she can be used in this chapter actually but with the fact that you've given her no exp in the previous 2 chapters (and that too for good reasons), that her durability is still bad and loads of archers is not much help. This chapter is another defensive chapters where durability is the most important thing to have to defend the chokepoints in comparison to AS or Atk. And if you did use her in the previous chapter against the norm, at Lvl 9 (there is no chance you would get her above this level btw unless maybe you've been babying her = not being very efficient then right) her defense and HP in comparison to the other tanks/people you would be using this chapter would be significantly lower, not to mention you have LOADS of snipers, and crossbow users:

Lvl HP Spd Luck Def Res Avoid (without bud supports)

Marcia 20/9 36.8 24.6*(T) 14 17.4 16.4 63.2

Brom 20/6 38.4 16.9 14.4 22.8 9.75 47.8

Nephenee 20/7 34.7 23.9 14.4 17.1 16.7 62.2

Mordecai 17 57.9 18.3 15.8 32.9 8.3 52.4

Geo 20/17 38.2 20.7 19.6 18.6 16 61

Kieran 20/13 42.5 20.6 16.6 19.2 11.5 57.8

Elincia 20/20/3 36.9 23.4 30.2 18.4 24.7 77

So, everyone (bar Neph by 0.3 Def) beats Marcia in Defense next highest being Elincia with 1 Def more. Also they all beat her in HP stat too (bar Neph again by 2.1 HP). Tbh I've exaggerated here slightly (no transfer bonuses to any of the others or supports when Neph/Brom would obviously have one) but just to show that Marcia even transferred is inferior durability-wise to all of them except Nephenee in terms of Def (the more important of the two) and yes to give credit to her, she has the Res but again not significant enough as Elincia and Neph are much better mage killers. And everything that can be preformed by a flier can be done better with Elincia in the chapter and with much less risk (more avoid against arrows) and Haar (durability god). The risk of arrows is too great in this chapter with a reinforcement coming from the bottom left at least with a crossbow which can OHKO Marcia.

So, 3 chapters in total, Marcia is not good to use in any of them, with the last one at most being used as a mage killer.

In Chap 3-9, she will be around 20/11 if you were being super nice to her, and probably finally gain the advantage of having a support bonus. So she becomes a bit more useful and she also gets rid of the fire in the top houses too to max BEXP, which nobody else can do effectively (except maybe Calill and Devdan with some climbing up). So yeah she's a good person to have this time but really 1 chapter out of 4 so far. Also the top units (some being snipers if I can recall) also threaten her, not to mention low HP and Def do not help and the fact that she will be too far away for the support bonus, so no. But actually this is the only chapter out of the 4 where I actually say use her for the top houses but it is risky again (with those top units).

Now onto Boyd:

Comes at 20/8 in Chap 3-P and has 9 chapters before Marcia comes along (so that's 5 more than Marcia) and he's actually useful in EACH one. He comes with a Killer Axe and Steel Axe and Hand Axe straight off the bat.

He's forced in Chap 3-P and 3-1 but no worries because he WON'T die. Let's do a comparison between him and the other frontliners in the group.

Lvl HP Str Skl Spd Luck Def Res

Boyd 20/8 45 22 20 18 13 15 8

Ike 20/11 44 24 28 23 14 21 7

Mia 20/7 34 17 26 28 18 13 8

Titania 20/16 36 25 22 21 19 20 14

Oscar 20/12 38 20 22 21 18 17 13

Gatrie 20/10 44 25 18 20 15 24 11

And also he has a bond support with Oscar, so we can add more Crit to that Killer Axe Crit, Oscar should not be going too far ahead anyway in both Chap 3-P and 3-1 because he is not that durable at only 17 Def (still more than Boyd though), Titania and Gatrie, however, should be using the full extent of their movement range. Also we can make Rolf tag along behind Boyd even if he isn't doing anything (because he may as well contribute to the battle by adding Crit and this isn't a hinderance as they both have the same movement). Therefore Boyd with Killer Axe will have 20 bond Crit + 30 weapon Crit + 10 Skl Crit = 60 Crit which is really good to say the least and will help immensely with this chapter, also compared to Ike and Mia in this chapter he has more durability against the fire mages (1 HP and 1 Res against Ike and 9 HP over Mia). Ike however has more durability over Boyd in terms of general combat, however, in this chapter with Ike's Ettard vs Boyd's Killer Axe vs Mia's Steel Sword vs Oscar's Steel Lance vs Gatrie's Steel Greatlance vs Titania's Steel Poleaxe:

Ike: Ettard - 36 Atk, 23 AS, 60 Avd and 24 Crit (with Soren and Titania but this is inconvenient as I mentioned)

Boyd: Killer Axe - 32 Atk, 18 AS, 49 Avd and 60 Crit (with Rolf incontrovertibly so and Oscar maybe)

Mia: Steel Sword - 26 Atk, 28 AS, 72 Avd and 23 Crit (no Bonds available but has +10 Crit from being a Swordmaster)

Titania: Steel Poleaxe - 40 Atk, 21 AS, 61 Avd and 16 Crit (with Ike)

Oscar: Steel Lance - 30 Atk, 21 AS, 60 Avd and 21 Crit (with Boyd)

Gatrie: Steel Greatlance - 39 Atk, 20 AS, 55 Avd and 19 Crit (with Shinnon)

Against an Axe General in this chapter with 35 HP, 20 Def and 15 AS. Yes, all except Boyd double him, so 34 with Ike (Ike will have the inability to completely defeat him too unless he Crits (which he still has a really low chance of doing even if you have his bonds)), 12 with Mia (so even with Wo Dao, her critical will not be enough either) and Oscar getting 20 (so still not enough). Titania and Gatrie would be able to defeat him but with Gatrie's movement that won't be happening for another turn, Titania no complaints. HOWEVER, Boyd with a 60 Crit has a high chance of getting the crit and getting the job done with a high chance of completely defeating the enemy (this is also in favour of Ike's and Mia's considering the enemy is using Axes). So, Titania and Boyd are really the most capable of taking care of the Generals in the chapter.

Also a quick note about Ike's bond Crit: Mist's priority is healing and so shouldn't necessarily be restricted to moving next to Ike. Actually getting more crit with both Soren and Titania is also quite restrictiv

e as Soren has less move and so Ike would have to wait back a space - and Titania who needs to be using her full move extent as she can do that unlike Oscar who's durability is not the better than Titania as 3 Def and 1 Res is better than a 2 HP lead.

Also you may ask why Oscar does not get the extra Crit by standing next to Rolf (because even at Oscar's 31 Crit you are still fairly sure that in Hard Mode that will not be enough for a crit whereas with Boyd's 61 Crit it is much more significant than 51 Crit and it becomes much more likely to be a crit).

Also why would Titania not get the Killer Axe because she can't take advantage of Bond supports like Boyd (who's movement fits in with Rolf's and Oscar's restricted movement because he has fairly low durability) whereas Titania has to be restricted by Ike and Mist and Rhy's movements - also Mist and Rhys should not be restricted at where they are positioned due to their position as healers and therefore Titania would have substantially less Crit (at most 46) and therefore there is the worry that she would waste it. Priority should go to the person who can critical the most and Boyd does that.

So I have at least proven that Boyd's Crit plays such a significant role in the defeat of many enemies with his bond supports and Killer Axe so I have proven his worth in Chap 3-P and 3-1 both requiring quick kills of enemies which he can do with his critical and his close proximity to Rolf and Oscar. Also, I am not saying he is better than Mia, Ike, Titania, Oscar or Gatrie - just that he can get the job done as early as possible along with Titania whereas Ike may not and Mia and Oscar will more than likely not, and actually get to the enemy unlike Gatrie (1 move less is significant in 3-P and 3-1 as the enemies are close together). SO HE HAS USE.

Also I will prioritize that Boyd support with Oscar, mainly because only front-liners need the Earth support (wasted on Mist, Rhys, Rolf and Shinon - he can't deal with direct damage therefore atm - and Soren has Shade). Also Gatrie has Defense so there is no point and Oscar has already been next to Boyd and taking advantage of the +10 to Crit, even without taking advantage of it (as their movement bonuses are different) thus they are the most likely combination to have got enough support bonuses to go on to the next level, giving even more reason to use him (Mia gets the Earth support from Ike I should think as Mist, Rhys and Soren should remain in the back lines).

Now in 3-2, you get Neph, Brom and Ily back, but really Soren/Rhys > Ily as mages even if you have been raising her and Neph and esp Heather are still more fragile than all of the GMs. This is a long chapter too so Gatrie's and Brom's restricted movement is not handy. Anyway so at this point in time Boyd's stats will be compared with the other frontliners:

Lvl HP Str Skl Spd Luck Def Res

Boyd 20/11 47.4 23.95 21.35 19.35 14.2 16.5 8.3

Ike 20/14 45.95 25.65 29.8 24.05 14.9 22.2 7.45

Mia 20/10 36.1 18.35 27.8 29.95 19.05 14.2 8.75

Titania 20/17 36.6 25.6 22.55 21.5 19.4 20.2 14.3

Oscar 20/14 39 20.7 23.3 22.2 19.1 17.6 13.4

Gatrie 20/12 45 27 19.8 22.4 16.2 26.4 12.4

Brom 20/9 41.6 21.8 19.8 18.1 17.9 25.2 10.75

Nephenee 20/9 35.6 17.8 24.6 25.2 15.2 17.8 17.6

Haar 20/15 47.2 25.8 26 21.2 14.8 25.6 7.8

Boyd has the highest HP out of any of them (even beating Haar). And he has the 4th highest strength out of any of them (beating Neph, Brom, Oscar, Mia) but yes he does have significantly lower AS than the rest except Brom and lower Def and Res than most so at the moment he's not that useful granted but he gets the Earth support (but I think I have proved that Boyd is the most worthy) so that will at least help with Avd. Because he will still have the Killer Axe (Haar and Titania will kill enemies fine without it and Brom lacks movement to be able to use it effectively + Boyd's got 2 at least really good bond supports) and the C Earth Support from Oscar he's done enough to warrant himself a place in this chapter and more often than not critical most, he is useful also against the high defense Dracomasters in the next chapter as I will now prove:

Dracomaster (lvl 9 - 41 HP, 19 AS and 20 Def) with Ike's Ettard vs Boyd's Killer Axe/Steel Poleaxe vs Mia's Steel Blade vs Oscar's Steel Greatlance vs Gatrie's Steel Greatlance vs Titania's Steel Poleaxe vs Brom's Steel Poleaxe vs Neph's Iron Greatlance vs Haar's Steel Poleax (supports aside otherwise Boyd gets the Avoid boost):

Boyd: Killer Axe/Steel Poleax - 33.95/38.95 Atk, 19.35 AS, 52.9 Avd and 60.6/24.88 Crit (with Rolf and Oscar)

Ike: Ettard - 37.65 Atk, 24.05 AS, 63 Avd and 24.9 Crit (with Soren and Titania but this is inconvenient as I mentioned before)

Mia: Steel Blade/Wo Dao - 31.35/25.35 Atk, 29.95 AS, 78.95 Avd and 23.9/43.9 Crit (no Bonds available but has +10 Crit Swordmaster bonus)

Titania: Steel Poleaxe - 40.6 Atk, 21.5 AS, 62.4 Avd and 16.2 Crit (with Ike)

Oscar: Steel Greatlance - 34.7 Atk, 22.2 AS, 63.5 Avd and 21.15 Crit (with Boyd)

Gatrie: Steel Greatlance - 41 Atk, 22.4 AS, 61 Avd and 19.4 Crit (with Shinnon)

Brom: Steel Poleaxe - 36.8 Atk, 18.1 AS, 54.1 Avd and 9.9 Crit (none)

Neph: Iron Greatlance - 28.8 Atk, 25.2 AS, 65.6 Avd and 22.3 Crit (none)

Haar: Steel Poleaxe - 40.2 Atk, 21.2 AS, 57.2 Avd and 13 Crit (none)

So, Boyd's Killer Axe combo still retains the best critical in this part so far and we will still have enough uses to carry on.

Against this dracomaster, Ike will double and give 35.3 not enough to kill, Mia will double and give 22.7 w/Steel Blade or 10.7 w/Wo Dao at the least and 32.1 even if she crits twice, not enough to take it down, Titania will give 20.6 (and observe even if Titania had 1 more AS, doubling would kill it), Oscar would double and give 29.4, Gatrie would give 21, Brom would give 16.8 (even if he doubled he still would not kill it), Neph would double but would give only 16.2 Atk, Haar would give only 20.2. So none of them can defeat it in one go unless they critical in which case all of them would kill it but who has the highest chance of doing that? It's Boyd with his Killer Axe, which would normally do 13.95 but criticaling damage would give 41.85 enough to kill it. And Boyd on Hard mode with his Killer Axe is probably the only one capable of doing this (Mia has too low Str and Wo Dao has really low Atk and Titania/Brom would not have the bond support adv).

So, in conclusion Boyd's at least good for the next 2 chaps until we get to Chap 3-4 where it will break at some point. But actually he's got enough strength by this point to go on. I've gone on long enough I think but I've established that Boyd is really good in at least 4 chapters so far I've proven with his Killer Axe he has efficiency all over even without counting the Earth support and transfer bonuses.

In 3-5, Titania is split between the south paladins and south east generals to defend against and as the south-east generals have lances, Boyd is the only other good contender to go down there and get them (Gatrie and/or Brom should remain on the frontlines as their movement won't allow them to slow down the generals themselves), another chapter where he is also useful to be in (efficiency-wise) - so that's at least 5 now.

I haven't even touched on the next chapters because I don't think I need to: Boyd's AS catches up before Chap 3-4 (so before the Killer Axe breaks) and will be enough so that he can double people, he'll be 20/15 by then and have an AS of 21. He's also a worthy Speedwing contender (along with Haar, Mordes and Titania as the rest will probably max their speed out really quickly. So he can be a really good unit.

Now ONE FINAL POINT - THE MOST IMPORTANT:

Chapter 3-11 When Boyd and Marcia (T) meet.

We must ask ourselves, what advantages do both units have when they are at this point to continue warranting their use?:

One we cannot use the argument that 3-11 has lots of holes in it and therefore Marcia is really good to use, because we must assume prior knowledge to this chapter that we already know where the potholes are. And okay fine we know where they are but then one may say Marcia is good in crossing them so that you can defeat the 1st sniper on the ballista early, BUT we already have Tanith/Sigrun (forced) and Haar and even potentially Jill in the party at this time, why should we use Marcia in particular (especially considering her durability vs Haar and Jill is not improved by transfers and late availability) to defeat the ballista snipers, especially considering falcon knights are fragile against arrows (Haar and Jill are actually therefore WAY MORE useful to use against the snipers than Marcia or even Tanith/Sigrun in this case).

Also let's do a stat check, being really nice to Marcia (T) and allowing her to gain 3 levels from Chap 3-9 (somehow) and being mean to Boyd and allowing him to only gain 4 levels from 4 chapters (3-5, 3-7, 3-8, 3-10) just to illustrate how much more overlevelled Boyd is compared to Marica (T):

Lvl HP Str Mag Skl Spd Luck Def Res

Marcia (T) 20/14 40(Max) 20.7*(T) 7.8 22.6*(T) 27(Max) 19.15 19.15 18.15

Boyd 20/19 53(Max) 29.15 1.55 24.95 22.95 17.8 21 9.2

Ok so we have an unfair comparison here (with Marcia somehow gaining 2 levels from each 2-P, 2-3, 2-F) and giving Boyd not much exp at all (but really he would be promoted by now because there is no way you would get 1 lvl from 1 chap). But still we go on and Boyd crushes Marcia in 1) Durability (by 13 HP, 1.85 Def and ok he loses in Res by around 9), 2) Offense (Mag is so irrelevant) in spite of Marcia's transfer bonuses (Boyd has a whopping 8.45 over her AND uses Axes and can take advantage of really good bond supports for Crit) and 3) Avoid (if we got A Earth from Oscar like I said before, Boyd was the best contender) in spite of Marcia's bonuses again. Skill is irrelevant at this stage but if we want to bring it along Boyd wins at this stage AGAIN (seriously though not important until we get to the next tier).

If equip best weapons at this stage:

Marcia (T) - Steel Greatlance: 34.7 Atk 27 AS 73.15 Avoid (without support) 22.3 Crit

Boyd - Steel Poleaxe: 44.15 Atk 22.95 AS 63.7 Avoid (see even without Earth support) 32.5 Crit

To be honest looking at the AS, but if had a General with 42 HP, 25 Def and 19 AS (again being super mean to Boyd) and let the Draco guy use Lances (otherwise massive penalty to Marcia but now we've got ). Marcia would double but only inflicting 9.7 x 2 = 19.4 and Boyd would dish out 20.15 (with 10 more Crit too). Also, with Ch3-11 and Ch3-F, Boyd is much more useful, promoting much earlier and dishing out damage therefore more rapidly whereas Marcia will not get to 20/20 by 4-Prog, it's as simple as that Boyd > Marcia (T)

Seriously

In Conclusion:

1) Marcia (T) has 1 Chapter of utility (Chap 3-9) and that's it, Boyd has 5 Chapters at least of usage (3-P, 3-1 definitely, 3-2, 3-3, 3-5 definitely)

2) Marcia is available for 6 chapters before Part 4 while Boyd is available for 11 chapters before Part 4

3) Boyd getting to 3rd tier by Part 4 is conceivable (in fact if you use him normally he will most definitely even without BEXP) whereas Marcia getting to 3rd tier is possible but still much less likely (I've been nice to her in my analysis)

4) She starts off really unhelpful in both 2-3 and 2-P, using her actually makes it all so much more inefficient

5) The extra strength makes no difference in 2-3 (you do not want to kill the units), in 2-P the Dracomasters are too strong and in 3-5 it does make a difference but on the left side (the Generals on the right have far too much Def for Marcia and Neph to be fair to make any difference) and on the left side is the dreaded Warrior Crossbow reinforcement so it's useless too, Haar and Elincia do the job much more effectively.

6) The extra speed is useless (should not be engaging in battle at all in 2-P and 2-3) and in 2-5 it helps but only with thunder mage killing (which is the only thing she should be doing the entire chapter otherwise she will die from arrows).

7) Boyd's durability is consistently good whereas Marcia's is next to none (except mage killing which Boyd can do OHKO tbh)

8) Boyd has lots of time to be able to support and take advantage of it, Marcia has next to none until 3-9.

9) When they finally meet, Boyd beats Marcia in overall utility (more durability, more offense, axes, promotion vs ability to double, avoid), even with Marcia's strength bonus.

10) If Boyd gets the Oscar support (which he should) then Marcia does not even have avoid over Boyd (as Boyd is only 10 Avoid below her) even with her speed bonus.

11) Boyd can take great advantage of Bond supports while Marcia cannot (Makalov but she won't be next to him unless you deployed both of them in 2-3 which I can't emphasise enough is the WRONG thing to do).

12) Boyd CAN compete with other GM members and has advantages + disadvantages over them (esp with his Crit + Killer Axe which can be sure to kill some enemies which nobody else can) in none of Marcia's chapters can she demonstrate this except Chap3-9 (with the towns on fire but seriously this is the only time)

13) Boyd has even more utility after 3-11 when he should have promoted (as he will gain promotion bonuses etc.) making him so much more effective to use rather than Marcia (T).

I think I've proved my point now let Boydiepoo go up one.

[Ema Skye]

One we cannot use the argument that 3-11 has lots of holes in it and therefore Marcia is really good to use, because we must assume prior knowledge to this chapter that we already know where the potholes are. And okay fine we know where they are but then one may say Marcia is good in crossing them so that you can defeat the 1st sniper on the ballista early, BUT we already have Tanith/Sigrun (forced) and Haar and even potentially Jill in the party at this time, why should we use Marcia in particular (especially considering her durability vs Haar and Jill is not improved by transfers and late availability) to defeat the ballista snipers, especially considering falcon knights are fragile against arrows (Haar and Jill are actually therefore WAY MORE useful to use against the snipers than Marcia or even Tanith/Sigrun in this case).

Why do these guys matter for Marcia vs Boyd? Yes, the Dragonmasters are better at ferrying Ike to the seize point than the Falcon Knights, but that has no effect on Marcia (T) vs Boyd, where the two of them are competing for a spot.

4) She starts off really unhelpful in both 2-3 and 2-P, using her actually makes it all so much more inefficient

2-P is timed, so even if you use Marcia she's not magically making you spend excess turns. No unit will lower your efficiency on this map because you cannot complete the map efficiently in less than 8 turns.

Marcia is much better in 2-3 than you give her credit for. But first of all, I don't know why you're saying don't kill things though. You don't need any of the BEXP for 3-F because Hammer!Haar exists, and by the time you get to 3-11 where the GMs can have it, they really don't need it. Marcia's flight lets her accomplish 2 crucial things better than anyone on her team: killing the Horseslayer dude (who pretty much ends all of your other mounted units in one shot, Geofferry and Kieran included) and the Speedwing (ship this over with Neph and Co. for Titania, or let Haar use it at the next base. She's actually helping here due to those things, making her your third most valuable unit here.

2-E is done super quickly with Hammer!Haar or Elincia. No one else is helping here besides them and Leanne, Marcia included. Why you'd want to spend the extra turns here is beyond me. You can get some nice boosters in a Dracoshield and an Energy Drop though (and hey, Marcia can help ferry Heather down to get one or both of these boosters).

10) If Boyd gets the Oscar support (which he should) then Marcia does not even have avoid over Boyd (as Boyd is only 10 Avoid below her) even with her speed bonus.

Boyd might be good for Oscar, but I don't think Oscar appreciates slowing down for the bonuses. I think that Titania would rather have Oscar's support due to move match, and both of them wanting the avoid boost due to low concrete durability. Boyd wants speed, which doesn't come from a support. The bond is nice and all, but Oscar has to slow down even more to help out Boyd when he'd rather be up on the front killing things and completing chapters faster.

13) Boyd has even more utility after 3-11 when he should have promoted (as he will gain promotion bonuses etc.) making him so much more effective to use rather than Marcia (T).

Marcia has sweet utility in the desert (even though that's done better by Haar and Jill, it's an advantage Marcia has in Marcia vs Boyd. She can also go to Izuka's swamp level and use her flight to clear the map faster than Boyd would due to movement impediments. Flight itself is utility and I don't see Boyd sprouting Wings anytime soon.

Combat isn't the only way units can be useful (otherwise Heather would be bottom tier). 9 movement is very useful, and flight is even moreso.

Edited September 14, 2012 by HORSEBIRD

[pikablu]

Why do these guys matter for Marcia vs Boyd? Yes, the Dragonmasters are better at ferrying Ike to the seize point than the Falcon Knights, but that has no effect on Marcia (T) vs Boyd, where the two of them are competing for a spot.

You've missed the point completely, when it comes to Marcia (T) vs Boyd, yeah Marcia has the flying over Boyd and I'm saying the flying doesn't help her this chapter because Tanith and Sigrun are already forced (so you might as well use them for the flying bits ANYWAY) and the fact that if you use Marcia's flying abilities here because of her seriously low durability (which the transfers don't help mind you) she is likely to die on this chapter from the snipers. I'm saying her flying does not score any points against Boyd in this chapter because her flying can be preformed better by other people (I have dismissed a point in her favour you see). And you've missed the point also that I have stated why Boyd is better for this chapter than Marcia (because he is at a much higher level + has more support options + amazing crit due bud supports). When looking at how a unit can contribute to efficiency it is necessary to see if the role they fulfill in the party is being done better by someone else and with Marcia the role of a flier is being done better by 4 other people atm, so why bring a liability along?

2-P is timed, so even if you use Marcia she's not magically making you spend excess turns. No unit will lower your efficiency on this map because you cannot complete the map efficiently in less than 8 turns.

Efficiency is not just 'Oh I completed the map in 1 turn' - it's about how effective the unit is in combat which for some reason you are not seeing because that in itself lends to the completion of the map in as less turns as possible. Marcia cannot contribute in combat because they're better units in 2-P, 2-3, 2-E because they carry less risk and can get the job done more effectively than Marcia (T) whereas Boyd can get the job more effectively done with that awesome crit defeating many more units which other units are incapable of defeating as I thought I showed in 3-2 with the Dracomaster and making life easier.

Marcia is much better in 2-3 than you give her credit for. But first of all, I don't know why you're saying don't kill things though. You don't need any of the BEXP for 3-F because Hammer!Haar exists, and by the time you get to 3-11 where the GMs can have it, they really don't need it. Marcia's flight lets her accomplish 2 crucial things better than anyone on her team: killing the Horseslayer dude (who pretty much ends all of your other mounted units in one shot, Geofferry and Kieran included) and the Speedwing (ship this over with Neph and Co. for Titania, or let Haar use it at the next base. She's actually helping here due to those things, making her your third most valuable unit here.

What? You don't need any of the BEXP for 2-F (I think you meant?) or even 3-F as you've written here? Efficiency includes getting as much BEXP as possible because you then use this experience to make your units get even stronger in combat (which actually is quite important for efficiency) which you can then distribute to units not just in 2-F but in 3-11 and 3-F.

2-E is done super quickly with Hammer!Haar or Elincia. No one else is helping here besides them and Leanne, Marcia included. Why you'd want to spend the extra turns here is beyond me. You can get some nice boosters in a Dracoshield and an Energy Drop though (and hey, Marcia can help ferry Heather down to get one or both of these boosters).

I'm not saying spend as many turns as you can on this chapter, but sending Marcia anywhere this chapter is tantamount to suicide. There is the dreaded crossbow reinforcement on the left side the longbow users (who ok cannot actually hit anyone) and a load of generals on her right. Hammer Haar is great for this chapter but seriously you've basically proved my point about how useless Marcia is then this chapter. Everything she does therefore is performed much better by the other fliers (Haar, Elinicia and even transformed Nealuchi) and why bring her down from her spot when there is a high risk of her dying (she is the weakest of the the three with Nea and Elincia dodging all of the attacks while Haar has enough defense for them). Seriously just have Elincia ferry Heather down (who can actually dodge and at least survive if hit).

Boyd might be good for Oscar, but I don't think Oscar appreciates slowing down for the bonuses. I think that Titania would rather have Oscar's support due to move match, and both of them wanting the avoid boost due to low concrete durability. Boyd wants speed, which doesn't come from a support. The bond is nice and all, but Oscar has to slow down even more to help out Boyd when he'd rather be up on the front killing things and completing chapters faster.

I thought I had also made it clear that Titania does not need Oscar's Earth support because she is more durable than Oscar and should be supporting with Haar instead (which leaves you with no other 9 movement units until chap 3-9) yes they move together but hordes of enemies in Chaps 3-P, 3-1, 3-2 (maybe), 3-4, 3-5, 3-7, 3-11 means you won't be sending Oscar out with Titania in their full movement range (because they're enemies everywhere and Titania is a tank and needs to stay back and protect anyway). And also Oscar and Boyd can take advantage of +10 to Crit which is really useful in Oscar's case (Short Spear).

Marcia has sweet utility in the desert (even though that's done better by Haar and Jill, it's an advantage Marcia has in Marcia vs Boyd. She can also go to Izuka's swamp level and use her flight to clear the map faster than Boyd would due to movement impediments. Flight itself is utility and I don't see Boyd sprouting Wings anytime soon.

Uhh? Yeah but if Marcia hasn't been promoted (which she will not do now because of her lack of assistance in 2-F which you've pointed out yourself even if you did go all out with her in 2-3), she is at least 5 levels behind Boyd. And if we go by your philosophy of not getting any BEXP (so no BEXP from 2-3) we can safely say that in HM where experience is null, Marcia is going NOWHERE. She'll be at most level 20/12 due to this. Have fun trying to squeeze levels out of her and feeding her kills to get her promoted by the desert chapter which is not efficient at all.

Also in Izuka's map you're saying she would be useful? How exactly? Movement you're saying is really good to have in this chapter? That's a big no from me. You need to be on the defensive in this chapter because if any unit is in the path of 1 or 2 HM Tigers and 1 HM Dragon then they're gone and that would not be very efficient having not even defeated the Dragon in the first place. Also let's face it, in terms of combat Marcia has no utility here, low durability (her higher resistance will not help here at all since none of the laguz this chapter use magic) and low offense will make sure that if she goes anywhere else other than right next to her team mates she will die, her movement therefore will not help. The Dragons have good Hit too here so Marcia's Avo is not much help except against the Tigers (and seriously Boyd vs Marcia (T) in terms of Avoid I said their Avo will be close). Whereas Boyd has the durability (seriously high HP + higher Def) than Marcia and enough offense to actually be helping out this chapter. Not to mention that Boyd will be far ahead in terms of levels and well into promotion compared to Marcia. Not to mention she should be with Sothe and Micaiah in the desert (because that's where she'll be doing the best).

And she IS good in the desert chapter, but seriously while Jill, Sigrun and Haar are well into promotion and maybe even Tanith, Marcia will not be anywhere near their level. Now tell me, is it efficient for a lower level Marcia (with bonuses) to double but not kill (due to her low Str even if she got bonuses?). While Jill/Haar/Sigrun/Tanith are well into their promotion and can probably double and get the job done at the same time because they are at a much higher level. Boyd has no wings granted but at least he is reliable and he shouldn't be going into the desert into the first place. A high durability unit like Boyd should go to Izuka's map and help there.

Combat isn't the only way units can be useful (otherwise Heather would be bottom tier). 9 movement is very useful, and flight is even moreso.

Seriously never said/implied this. Flying is useful - and I thought I had emphasised that enough as being one of Marcia's only qualities - I actually even said that you should bring her along to Chap 3-9 because she is the only one capable of getting rid of the fire on the top house to max BEXP but why is she the only person who can get there because she can fly, seriously I had emphasised enough that Marcia has only 1 chapter of quality play before Chap 3-11, whereas Boyd has at least 4-5 (I haven't even analysed like 5 of them too).

You are bigging up Marcia's flying as if one should ONLY have fliers in their team because she can go up to the enemies faster, yes but that means she also dies faster. If movement was such a godly thing then why don't players just send Haar across to the boss? Forget the other enemies...You need to keep in mind that efficiency is mostly combat related, flying for rescuing/seizing/arriving is useful definitely but when other units can perform that role better it doesn't count in Marcia's favour. Also movement seriously doesn't count when you're against strong enemies and you need to be on the defensive and make sure your units are together.

Also you have not said anything about Boyd's utility. So far the argument Boyd > Marcia (T) pre-Chap 3-11 still stands and I think I've also made myself clear why Boyd > Marcia (T) Chap 3-11 and beyond. (not to mention you can buy the Killer Axe again from the store at 3-F making him even more useful from that point on.

[dondon151]

marcia (T) >>> boyd (N/T) because she can 3 turn chapter 3-9 fairly reliably

You've missed the point completely, when it comes to Marcia (T) vs Boyd, yeah Marcia has the flying over Boyd and I'm saying the flying doesn't help her this chapter because Tanith and Sigrun are already forced (so you might as well use them for the flying bits ANYWAY) and the fact that if you use Marcia's flying abilities here because of her seriously low durability (which the transfers don't help mind you) she is likely to die on this chapter from the snipers.

See this is a strange argument that you are making, because Boyd's combat abilities are eclipsed by a heck of a lot of units, whether they be on foot, on horse, or on flying steed: Haar, Ike, Titania, Mia, Ulki, Janaff, probably Nephenee.

so why bring a liability along?

How so? The tier list does not assume incompetency on the part of the player. It's trivially easy to stay out of range of snipers, but what's more important is that even if Marcia needs to skirt around some enemies, she's still getting to places faster than Boyd.

What? You don't need any of the BEXP for 2-F (I think you meant?) or even 3-F as you've written here? Efficiency includes getting as much BEXP as possible because you then use this experience to make your units get even stronger in combat (which actually is quite important for efficiency) which you can then distribute to units not just in 2-F but in 3-11 and 3-F.

In the form that you stated, this is patently false. Efficiency is not about "maximizing BEXP." At a certain point, there is hardly any marginal benefit to having more BEXP than you need. Certainly, killing a couple extra Crimea-allied units in 2-3 in order to 5-turn the map does not even result in a significant BEXP loss.

I thought I had also made it clear that Titania does not need Oscar's Earth support because she is more durable than Oscar and should be supporting with Haar instead (which leaves you with no other 9 movement units until chap 3-9)

Actually, you shouldn't. Haar rarely moves with Titania at all because of flying (that, or they're both exceptionally good and should go to different areas of the map during rout objectives). Titania's best support is Oscar (though Interceptor likes to advocate Mist fsr) and Haar's best support is probably Ike.

Uhh? Yeah but if Marcia hasn't been promoted (which she will not do now because of her lack of assistance in 2-F which you've pointed out yourself even if you did go all out with her in 2-3), she is at least 5 levels behind Boyd. And if we go by your philosophy of not getting any BEXP (so no BEXP from 2-3) we can safely say that in HM where experience is null, Marcia is going NOWHERE. She'll be at most level 20/12 due to this. Have fun trying to squeeze levels out of her and feeding her kills to get her promoted by the desert chapter which is not efficient at all.

Marcia can definitely gain at least 2 levels in 2-P if you don't sandbag her and at least another level in 2-3. Then you plow enough BEXP into her in 3-9 to get her to 20 str, then promote. 23 str is not exceptional, but it's pretty darn good when she doubles everything and flies. It's what Tanith (N) has with an instant promotion, except Marcia is better everywhere else.

Also you have not said anything about Boyd's utility. So far the argument Boyd > Marcia (T) pre-Chap 3-11 still stands and I think I've also made myself clear why Boyd > Marcia (T) Chap 3-11 and beyond. (not to mention you can buy the Killer Axe again from the store at 3-F making him even more useful from that point on.

You can not use Boyd one whit past chapter 3-1 and you will not feel like you've missed anything. Contrast with Marcia (T), who is responsible for increased reliability and reduced turncounts in at least 2-3 and 3-9, and is much better in part 4 due to either desert or swamp.

Edited September 14, 2012 by dondon151

[Anouleth]

Marcia is actually really useful in 2-3 because she can take out the Horseslayer Paladin, and is only unit that can double promoted enemies. She's crucial for the 5 turn clear. Killing enemies is not a big deal: each enemy gives 100BEXP, which is about 3EXP for someone like Haar. He'll live. She's also pretty good in 2-E, I think.

Lvl HP Str Mag Skl Spd Luck Def Res

Marcia (T) 20/14 40(Max) 20.7*(T) 7.8 22.6*(T) 27(Max) 19.15 19.15 18.15

Boyd 20/19 53(Max) 29.15 1.55 24.95 22.95 17.8 21 9.2

Ok so we have an unfair comparison here (with Marcia somehow gaining 2 levels from each 2-P, 2-3, 2-F)

That's actually a pretty reasonable level gain, in my experience.

and giving Boyd not much exp at all (but really he would be promoted by now because there is no way you would get 1 lvl from 1 chap). But still we go on and Boyd crushes Marcia in 1) Durability (by 13 HP, 1.85 Def and ok he loses in Res by around 9), 2) Offense (Mag is so irrelevant) in spite of Marcia's transfer bonuses (Boyd has a whopping 8.45 over her AND uses Axes and can take advantage of really good bond supports for Crit) and 3) Avoid (if we got A Earth from Oscar like I said before, Boyd was the best contender) in spite of Marcia's bonuses again. Skill is irrelevant at this stage but if we want to bring it along Boyd wins at this stage AGAIN (seriously though not important until we get to the next tier).

Marcia flies and is therefore 100x more useful in 3-11, quite aside from the reality that she doubles everything and probably ends up winning offense, especially since it's possible to BEXP her strength

[pikablu]

marcia (T) >>> boyd (N/T) because she can 3 turn chapter 3-9 fairly reliably

Explain please how she goes about doing that? And if you're going to talk about flying, how about explain how Tanith/Sigrun/Jill/Haar/Janaff/Ulki are all not good enough to do the same (Tanith + Sigrun being forced this chapter also).

See this is a strange argument that you are making, because Boyd's combat abilities are eclipsed by a heck of a lot of units, whether they be on foot, on horse, or on flying steed: Haar, Ike, Titania, Mia, Ulki, Janaff, probably Nephenee.

It's not strange because I just made an analysis describing how Boyd can OHKO Dracomasters which other guys (even Titania in certain cases) couldn't due to highest crit coming from bond supports, Killer Axe and average skill. Really, can you please read what I've said before calling my argument 'strange'.

I don't dispute his combat prowess over Titania or Haar for the moment but he definitely gets the most out of the Killer Axe. Mia and Nephenee really don't do it for him with low Str and even with the Wo Dao Mia is not 2HKOing Dracomasters and Generals. Please look at what I've said in my analysis. And tbh you haven't said HOW they are better, you've just stated that they are better without substantiating it with any proof.

And what? Ulki and Janaff do not come until 3-7, I was talking about his utility in Chap 3-P, 3-1, 3-2 and 3-3 and maybe 3-4 (where is the argument here?). I hadn't got to the other chapters but seriously? Ulki and Janaff come at Turn 8 in Chap 3-7 by that time everyone should be on the other side of the map. So not going to beat Boyd in utility then. That leaves Chap 3-8, 3-10, 3-11 and 3-F. I'll conduct an analysis on this later but you still haven't defeated the arguments pre Chap 3-5 in favour of Boyd.

How so? The tier list does not assume incompetency on the part of the player. It's trivially easy to stay out of range of snipers, but what's more important is that even if Marcia needs to skirt around some enemies, she's still getting to places faster than Boyd.

True but also that means she won't be getting anywhere in Chapter 3-11 (full of archers) if she gets out of the range of snipers she is going to be in the back lines with the other pegi wheras Boyd can (albeit one turn after) defeat the snipers as well as staying alive. You have forgotten also to take into account Marcia's durability at this stage which is not better than Boyd's, Boyd is a tank and will stay alive, Marcia carries more risk (forget arrows, she can't afford to be hit more than 3 times). And what places are faster for Marcia to get to? Give me an example please. Movement isn't everything in these games.

In the form that you stated, this is patently false. Efficiency is not about "maximizing BEXP." At a certain point, there is hardly any marginal benefit to having more BEXP than you need. Certainly, killing a couple extra Crimea-allied units in 2-3 in order to 5-turn the map does not even result in a significant BEXP loss.

I did not say that. I said that efficiency is not just the speed at which you clear the map but how effective the unit is in combat (which lends itself to completing the map faster, as stronger units will help you clear the map faster). BEXP is important to however as it lends itself into increasing the unit's combat prowess. especially when combat exp is lacking in HM. BEXP is needed and should really be maximised to maximise combat prowess.

And this is the most important chapter for getting BEXP, killing 5 or 10 enemies means a difference of 500 BEXP which could make the difference between getting that extra level in especially in HM where combat exp is lacking (this is probably the most important chapter). And also Marcia cannot kill by herself at that point she needs to be fed kills which Geo and Kieran can do but then arises the question why can't I feed kills to Astrid and Makalov. She needs to survive too and she won't with all of those beginning enemies.

Actually, you shouldn't. Haar rarely moves with Titania at all because of flying (that, or they're both exceptionally good and should go to different areas of the map during rout objectives). Titania's best support is Oscar (though Interceptor likes to advocate Mist fsr) and Haar's best support is probably Ike.

Oscar gets +10 Crit from being next to Boyd. On top of that Ch3-P and 3-1 you will not be using Oscar's FULL MOVEMENT. Why? Because the enemies are situated literally right next to you, Oscar can't just be doing his own thing with Titania, so it gives you ample time for you to have Boyd next to Oscar. Titania does well with Mist because of the +2 Def. Mist also needs Titania to help her heal and she benefits from the additional defense too. Oscar needs Boyd because unlike Titania his durability will not be that good at the start and movement is restricted in 3-P (due to bushes and enemies right in front of you), 3-1 (due to enemies again right in front of you), you want Oscar to be right with the group giving enough time for Boyd C Oscar. Oscar also has a high support compatibility with Boyd whereas he doesn't with Titania - thus Oscar will benefit much more quickly from supporting with Boyd than with Titania.

Marcia can definitely gain at least 2 levels in 2-P if you don't sandbag her and at least another level in 2-3. Then you plow enough BEXP into her in 3-9 to get her to 20 str, then promote. 23 str is not exceptional, but it's pretty darn good when she doubles everything and flies. It's what Tanith (N) has with an instant promotion, except Marcia is better everywhere else.

Seriously I think I was biased enough TO Marcia but this just takes the cake. I let her gain loads of levels in 2-P, 2-3 and 2-F because even in spite of that she is not going to be better than Boyd (and I proved it in my 3-11 analysis, again please consult it). Again you have not read what I said previously about WHY she shouldn't be doing anything in 2-P or 2-3.

Also WHY on earth would you plow bonus exp into her? BEXP should be distributed evenly based off the requirements of this tier list, something which you have not taken into account at all! You can't be favouring Marcia over anyone else. Also plowing it into her is even more of a reason why her stats will end up being worse than they are (seeing as only 3 will go up) and it won't be strength either will it.

Going by what you've said: Marcia will get to 20/7 at the end of 2-P, 20/8 at the end of 2-3 and then getting her to 20/12. So 4 levels worth of BEXP, 1450 from 20/8 to 20/9 (x2 for HM so 2900), 1500 from 20/9 to 20/10 (x2 for HM so 3000), 1550 from 20/10 to 20/11 (x2 for HM so 3100), and 1600 from 20/11 to 20/12 (x2 for HM so 3200). That's in total 2900 + 3000 + 3100 + 3200 = 12200 BEXP. Then BEXP from that point (assuming you haven't spent it + cleared in most turns + done all optional bits): 500 for 2-P, 1925 for 2-1, 1500 for 2-2, 6725 for 2-3 (assuming you've killed at least 4 units, 3 for Marcia's level up again favouring her and 1 for Boss), 1500 for 2-F = 12150 BEXP. Oh and lookie this 50 exp missing to make it to Level 20/12. Anyways we will continue...promote her when she has 20 Str so that will be Level 20/12.

Then promote to Seraph Knight, but wait! We have done it the BEXP way and at 20/8 she isn't even close to maxing speed (the only stat which she does) and only the top 3 stats are upgraded so Marcia's top stats in order are HP, Speed, Skill, Def, Res THEN Str. She's not getting the strength even from the level ups (no more level ups either as 20/12 to 13 requires 3300 and we only have 350 remember), and she cannot promote then by your logic so 3-9 no promotion. Also by this time, Geo and Kieran would have maxed some stats (therefore who gets BEXP priority the people who make the most of it - i.e. the people who have maxed stats so Geo + Kieran).

But let's say she somehow gets the strength so she gets the promotion in 3-9 (let's use the averages then which she isn't getting with BEXP but anyways...) AND let's throw in another level up. Let's promote her to Seraph (again you're prioritizing Master Seal over Kieran and Geo but I'll let you get away with this too), she gets +4 HP, +3 Str, +2 Skl, +2 Spd, +3 Def +4 Res.

being mean to Boyd again (by restricting level ups + no BEXP) CHAP 3-11:

Level HP Str Skl Spd Lck Def Res

Marcia 20/12/2 43.6 24.4*(T) 25.2*(T) 29.2*(T) 16 21.7 21.7

Boyd 20/19 53(Max) 29.15 24.95 22.95 17.8 21 9.2

So, Boyd still beats her in Def Durability (9.4 HP lead vs 0.7 Def c'mon!) and Offense (4.75 Str + Axes). Marcia still has AS + Avd lead over him though yeah sure fair enough. But Marcia's Avoid is 74.4 and Boyd's is 63.7, a +10 Avd (it's a lead but unlike durability and offense, a +10 Avd lead does not convey much of an advantage especially considering Boyd will have a support to A even without Earth support, he's got Rolf with Wind and that way he keeps the crit bonus). Also Marcia's Crit will only be 12.6 whereas Boyd will still have 32.5 or whatever with his bud supports (62.5 when he gets a Killer Axe back).

5 complaints with your logic: 1) Favouring BEXP to Marcia, 2) Going by the Marcia gains a level in 3-3, not enough BEXP, 3) BEXP only favouring top growths, and Str is far down the list, 4) Prioritizing Master Seal away from Geo and Kieran who would make more use of it too, 5) Boyd still stat-wise > Marcia in 3-11 (except in AS + Mv yes Marcia does beat him).

You can not use Boyd one whit past chapter 3-1 and you will not feel like you've missed anything. Contrast with Marcia (T), who is responsible for increased reliability and reduced turncounts in at least 2-3 and 3-9, and is much better in part 4 due to either desert or swamp.

Oh really? Interesting, so Boyd's critical again completely ignored? His use against Dracomasters + Generals in 3-3 and 3-5 completely forgotten too (clearly again you haven't read what I've said about this). I'm interested to hear about her increased reliability in 2-3 and how she reduces turn counts in 2-3 and 3-9.

And what I said about the swamp not coming in here at all - guys seriously READ WHAT I SAY. The desert stuff also being completely ignored.

Again you have not supplied reasons for why not using Boyd 'feels like you've not missed anything' and you have been blindly supporting Marcia (T).

[dondon151]

Explain please how she goes about doing that? And if you're going to talk about flying, how about explain how Tanith/Sigrun/Jill/Haar/Janaff/Ulki are all not good enough to do the same (Tanith + Sigrun being forced this chapter also).

3-9 is Marauders; only she and the CRKs are available. 23 str is 33 atk with the Brave Lance, which 4HKOs the boss. She also needs 27 spd, but that's easy enough with 22 base, +2 from promo, +2 on average over 3 normal level ups, and whatever she gets while we're fishing for a str proc on BEXP.

It's not strange because I just made an analysis describing how Boyd can OHKO Dracomasters which other guys (even Titania in certain cases) couldn't due to highest crit coming from bond supports, Killer Axe and average skill. Really, can you please read what I've said before calling my argument 'strange'.

But what's the point? Boyd's only crit advantage over Titania comes from bond supports, and those are nearly useless. Not only are they unreliable, but they require inflexible positioning - why glue Oscar to Boyd when he can just go on and kill shit on his own?

Also don't forget that Titania can use the Wyrmslayer, which kills dracos dead. Titania's weapon combination is lethal because she has effective damage against both generals and dracos and she has sufficient atk/AS to ORKO everything else but SMs.

I don't dispute his combat prowess over Titania or Haar for the moment but he definitely gets the most out of the Killer Axe. Mia and Nephenee really don't do it for him with low Str and even with the Wo Dao Mia is not 2HKOing Dracomasters and Generals. Please look at what I've said in my analysis. And tbh you haven't said HOW they are better, you've just stated that they are better without substantiating it with any proof.

That's because I don't need to; the proof is buried in the annals of this topic and have been iterated hundreds of times over. Mia doubles everything and has substantial atk with a maxed MT Steel Sword forge, and has a substantial chance at ORKOing nearly every enemy type with Adept and/or +crit on that same forge. Nephenee is pretty much the same thing as Mia except slightly weaker. Boyd's AS, on the other hand, is so poor that he doesn't double anything for awhile, which hurts his effectiveness with both skills like Adept (Mia and Neph have a higher activation rate and are more likely to trigger it at least once) and enhanced crit on weapons (again, they are more likely to get a crit at least once if they attack twice). The Wo Dao is useless after 3-1 when Mia can go wild on maxed MT, maxed crit Steel Sword forges.

And what? Ulki and Janaff do not come until 3-7, I was talking about his utility in Chap 3-P, 3-1, 3-2 and 3-3 and maybe 3-4 (where is the argument here?). I hadn't got to the other chapters but seriously? Ulki and Janaff come at Turn 8 in Chap 3-7 by that time everyone should be on the other side of the map. So not going to beat Boyd in utility then. That leaves Chap 3-8, 3-10, 3-11 and 3-F. I'll conduct an analysis on this later but you still haven't defeated the arguments pre Chap 3-5 in favour of Boyd.

I thought that you were talking about 3-9. I am not going to argue about 3-P and 3-1 because you more or less have to use Boyd, but he really doesn't do anything special in the remainder of the maps.

3-2 can be 2-turned with >60% certainty if Shinon has Adept and a MT/crit Steel Bow forge; should he fail to ORKO the boss, it's an easy 3-turn clear that basically only requires some combination of Oscar, Titania, and Haar.

3-3 he just does a little bit of stuff, but the majority of the weight is pulled by Haar and Oscar/Titania.

3-4 he is completely useless; this is just a Haar rush.

3-5 he is also virtually useless if we use either the 1- or 2-turn strategies available for this map.

3-7 no one really cares about. I guess you could say that he's "decent" here, but everyone is decent here. You don't need to kill very many enemies if you don't want to, but in general the ones that you do kill should go to the units that have high returns in the long run, i.e. not Boyd.

3-8 he just kind of walks around doing stuff, nothing that Titania/Haar/Ike/Mia/Neph/Ulki/Janaff aren't doing better.

3-10 is more of the same, except Boyd has to join all of the other foot units at the base of the map because the mounted units cover the remainder faster than he can blink.

3-11 he doesn't fly and is on foot. Pretty useless for this map.

3-E: if you want to get this done fast, plop Haar in the middle of enemies; otherwise Boyd isn't doing much at all.

Basically, he's not doing much that is unique, and that is the essence of arguments that pit infantry against fliers. Whereas Marcia, especially Marcia (T), can do some pretty neat stuff that is mostly irreplaceable.

True but also that means she won't be getting anywhere in Chapter 3-11 (full of archers) if she gets out of the range of snipers she is going to be in the back lines with the other pegi wheras Boyd can (albeit one turn after) defeat the snipers as well as staying alive.

I do not remember snipers being a problem in this map. I literally moved all 5 of my bow-vulnerable units far ahead of everyone else and did not encounter a single problem.

Part 1:

Part 2:

You have forgotten also to take into account Marcia's durability at this stage which is not better than Boyd's, Boyd is a tank and will stay alive, Marcia carries more risk (forget arrows, she can't afford to be hit more than 3 times). And what places are faster for Marcia to get to? Give me an example please. Movement isn't everything in these games.

Marcia should have like, what, 42 HP, 20 def on average by 3-11 if we do the 3-9 3-turn promotion route for her? That's like a L14 Boyd. Not a huge difference, even if Boyd's level were higher. If we care more about her durability, then we can pile things onto her that will make her super durable. She makes better use of those resources than Boyd does, anyway.

I did not say that.

Yes you did. You said:

"Efficiency includes getting as much BEXP as possible"

I said that efficiency is not just the speed at which you clear the map but how effective the unit is in combat (which lends itself to completing the map faster, as stronger units will help you clear the map faster).

So I'm glad that you agree with me.

BEXP is important to however as it lends itself into increasing the unit's combat prowess. especially when combat exp is lacking in HM. BEXP is needed and should really be maximised to maximise combat prowess.

Nope. Take the hypothetical situation of a super Haar and super Ike in 3-11. You wouldn't need anyone else. Thus there is really no point in having BEXP for other units.

Now take the hypothetical comparison of those two against super-super Haar and super-super Ike in 3-11. Well, if they both perform the same task equally well, then there was no point in having extra BEXP for super Haar and super Ike.

In reality, we would like to use every drop of BEXP, but the fact is that once we've made our fliers into juggernauts, the effect of marginal BEXP on other units just isn't worth the cost in turns. And, like Anouleth said, you don't lose very much BEXP from killing a few more enemies in 2-3.

And also Marcia cannot kill by herself at that point she needs to be fed kills which Geo and Kieran can do but then arises the question why can't I feed kills to Astrid and Makalov. She needs to survive too and she won't with all of those beginning enemies.

Can Astrid or Makalov fly or 3-turn chapter 3-9? That's why Marcia is a better recipient of that EXP!

Keeping Astrid alive is trivially easy:

Oscar gets +10 Crit from being next to Boyd. On top of that Ch3-P and 3-1 you will not be using Oscar's FULL MOVEMENT. Why? Because the enemies are situated literally right next to you, Oscar can't just be doing his own thing with Titania, so it gives you ample time for you to have Boyd next to Oscar.

I can show you just how negligible bond supports are. I usually pretend like they don't exist and I get by just fine.

Titania does well with Mist because of the +2 Def. Mist also needs Titania to help her heal and she benefits from the additional defense too. Oscar needs Boyd because unlike Titania his durability will not be that good at the start and movement is restricted in 3-P (due to bushes and enemies right in front of you), 3-1 (due to enemies again right in front of you), you want Oscar to be right with the group giving enough time for Boyd C Oscar. Oscar also has a high support compatibility with Boyd whereas he doesn't with Titania - thus Oscar will benefit much more quickly from supporting with Boyd than with Titania.

This is all false. First, Titania will get +def from any support because she gets that from her own affinity. Second, +avo helps Titania immensely because she isn't as much of a defensive juggernaut as Haar. Third, support compatibility is a non-issue because the GMs have so many chapters in part 3 that getting them to A by the end is trivial, and support bonuses are not something that you live by - they come into play occasionally and are nice to have every now and then, but it is more important to complete the map than it is to have a support.

The real kicker for Titania supporting Oscar is that they can plausibly be near each other in every subsequent map. Boyd falls behind on maps as early as 3-2.

Seriously I think I was biased enough TO Marcia but this just takes the cake. I let her gain loads of levels in 2-P, 2-3 and 2-F because even in spite of that she is not going to be better than Boyd (and I proved it in my 3-11 analysis, again please consult it). Again you have not read what I said previously about WHY she shouldn't be doing anything in 2-P or 2-3.

Of course I have read it. I have just dismissed it as unjustified rambling. Your argument is not convincing. What in blazes are you doing in 2-P? You can't just run away and hide in a corner. Haar gets single digit EXP from killing these guys, so he doesn't even care. Nealuchi gets strike WEXP, but he needs to use up his Laguz Stones in order to get any substantial amount, plus he'll be out of commission occasionally. Elincia does hardly any damage with her Slim Sword. In fact, it is beneficial to have Marcia attack as much as possible in 2-P because Elincia gets significantly more EXP from healing Marcia every turn than from fighting.

Also WHY on earth would you plow bonus exp into her? BEXP should be distributed evenly based off the requirements of this tier list, something which you have not taken into account at all! You can't be favouring Marcia over anyone else. Also plowing it into her is even more of a reason why her stats will end up being worse than they are (seeing as only 3 will go up) and it won't be strength either will it.

Uh, yes you can. This is not communist Fire Emblem. If plowing 3 levels of BEXP into Marcia is the difference between 3-turning and 5-turning 3-9, then I will gladly BEXP Marcia. Her str growth is not favored with BEXP, but she only needs on average ~1 point of str in order to reach 33 atk after promotion, which should not require a huge amount of BEXP.

Going by what you've said: Marcia will get to 20/7 at the end of 2-P, 20/8 at the end of 2-3 and then getting her to 20/12. So 4 levels worth of BEXP, 1450 from 20/8 to 20/9 (x2 for HM so 2900), 1500 from 20/9 to 20/10 (x2 for HM so 3000), 1550 from 20/10 to 20/11 (x2 for HM so 3100), and 1600 from 20/11 to 20/12 (x2 for HM so 3200). That's in total 2900 + 3000 + 3100 + 3200 = 12200 BEXP. Then BEXP from that point (assuming you haven't spent it + cleared in most turns + done all optional bits): 500 for 2-P, 1925 for 2-1, 1500 for 2-2, 6725 for 2-3 (assuming you've killed at least 4 units, 3 for Marcia's level up again favouring her and 1 for Boss), 1500 for 2-F = 12150 BEXP. Oh and lookie this 50 exp missing to make it to Level 20/12. Anyways we will continue...promote her when she has 20 Str so that will be Level 20/12.

Disingenuous argument. You can BEXP Marcia to 99 EXP in 2-3 preparations to maximize her CEXP level ups and save a little bit of BEXP. You also don't have to take my assumption literally; there are other users here who will vouch for Marcia being at a higher level (I am notoriously bad at leveling units up, simply because I generally don't care).

Then promote to Seraph Knight, but wait! We have done it the BEXP way and at 20/8 she isn't even close to maxing speed (the only stat which she does) and only the top 3 stats are upgraded so Marcia's top stats in order are HP, Speed, Skill, Def, Res THEN Str. She's not getting the strength even from the level ups (no more level ups either as 20/12 to 13 requires 3300 and we only have 350 remember), and she cannot promote then by your logic so 3-9 no promotion.

Do you know what probability is? You cannot promulgate this sort of certitude with a straight face. Even the 6th highest stat growth has a probability to occur on a BEXP level up: sure, it will be less than 30%, but it's definitely not 0%.

Also by this time, Geo and Kieran would have maxed some stats (therefore who gets BEXP priority the people who make the most of it - i.e. the people who have maxed stats so Geo + Kieran).

No matter how much BEXP you give these guys, there is no possible way for you to 3-turn 3-9 with them.

Let's step back for a moment and consider our contingency plan. Say that Marcia doesn't get her point of str. You can still promote her and KO the 3-9 boss in tandem with Calill's Meteor in 3 turns. She'll still be a significantly better unit with the BEXP plow because, let's face it: unpromoted Marcia (T) in 3-11 is pretty terrible. Might as well just use Tanith in that case.

5 complaints with your logic: 1) Favouring BEXP to Marcia,

You are alone in this complaint. Every respectable user in this thread will stand with me on this one. It is just as justifiable as favoring Titania or Haar with the Speedwings.

2) Going by the Marcia gains a level in 3-3, not enough BEXP,

Oh, boo-hoo, you're exactly 50 BEXP short; you are just being disingenuous with this one.

3) BEXP only favouring top growths, and Str is far down the list,

You only need to fish for 1 point of str.

4) Prioritizing Master Seal away from Geo and Kieran who would make more use of it too,

They are terrible recipients of the Master Seal.

5) Boyd still stat-wise > Marcia in 3-11 (except in AS + Mv yes Marcia does beat him).

So you concede that Marcia wins in the most important parameter, and also annihilates Boyd in terms of offense, because 23 AS doubles... generals in 3-11. Sages and paladins too, but Marcia already kills those dead.

Man, I cannot believe how much hot air this guy has. I thought it would never end.

Edited September 14, 2012 by dondon151

[Chiki]

I remember doing both a no transfers efficiency and a transfers efficiency playthrough. I was unable to 4-turn 3-8 and 3-10 without transfers Boyd. I suspect it would have been impossible to get low turns on 4-1 and 4-4 without him too.

The point is that Boyd with transfers is far better than Boyd without. Probably not better than Marcia though.