OMG it's a tier list

[Lord Raven]

I'm sure that's taken into account, they don't have separate tier spots because of being recruited by the GMs.

I don't see why you'd want to do that other than the sheer pleasure of seeing the Dawn Brigade suffer (as well as yourself) ALSO considering the very limited spots you have on the GMs. It's best you stick them with the Dawn Brigade anyway.

Edited January 14, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[Florete]

One question:

If Jill and Zihark transitions over to the GM at 3-7, would that change their tier positions?

It should be assumed that they stay on Micaiah's team, so they can be good units on a weak team rather than underleveled units on an overpowered team, at least until 3-E. Switching them over could change their position, but I've never seen a serious argument for it.

[Icon of Sin]

Then again, you can recruit them back in 3-F and that only means more experience for them. You're just forced to use Haar and Mordecai/Lethe/Brom/Ilyana.

[Lord Raven]

Switching them over doesn't change their position if it makes them go lower (which I can actually see it doing), IMO unless you're willing to make a new entry for it. >_>

[Icon of Sin]

Switching them over doesn't change their position if it makes them go lower (which I can actually see it doing), IMO unless you're willing to make a new entry for it. >_>

Well it's an advantage for Zihark and Jill I suppose since they can get some decent experience on 3-E ( Zihark moreso since he's almost at the beginning ).

Maybe that was already taken into consideration into making the current tier list, though.

[Florete]

Then again, you can recruit them back in 3-F and that only means more experience for them. You're just forced to use Haar and Mordecai/Lethe/Brom/Ilyana.

Yes, I know. That's why I mentioned it.

Switching them over doesn't change their position if it makes them go lower (which I can actually see it doing), IMO unless you're willing to make a new entry for it. >_>

I suppose, though I don't see a real point to doing that. It could be argued that they can ferry items over, but that's bad for a few reasons:

1. Ilyana already did that, so the Brave Bow is the only item that might need to be transferred.

2. If you're using the two seriously, which has to be assumed for the list, you aren't likely using them to ferry items.

In other words, I don't see the point in adding a new entry, but I will if people insist on it.

[Lord Raven]

I don't either. It's not like they come in on a different route with different stats like Gonzales and them do.

Recruiting them in 3-E is a plus; I can't see it as a plus for them for being recruited back sooner. They're going to be doing pretty... average against the enemies (especially compared to your units).

Edited January 14, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[HeroMystic]

It was just something that piqued my curiosity since it never came up in a tier list discussion (and I've read a lot of tier lists discussions). I agree that Jill and Zihark are better units on such a weak team, but one could argue that if they were planned taken to the GMs (which means Jill and Zihark would be supported. And Volug/Nolan can be supported with Edward/Aran), the Dawn Brigade could benefit from being a smaller team as it means less of a spread of CEXP and characters like Aran and Edward become more efficient because of it.

As for Jill and Zihark, while their performance become noticeably less efficient in the GM, it can be argued that their performance become far better lategame due to higher amounts of CEXP than that would if they sticked with the DB.

[Paperblade]

Reavers have a 68 HP cap.

Second highest then.

Waiting for Fox to finish the response until I post in response.

Moving Jill/Zihark teams would depend on how many GM units I'm using, since if I'm already strapped for slots they'll just be benched (whereas the DB can pretty much field everyone every chapter). Additionally, they're gonna be pretty crappy (Jill in particular, at least Zihark can double sometimes) so I have to ask whether them sucking in Part 3 and giving the DB hell in 3-12/13 is worth a few extra levels in Part 4.

I'm tempted to say no since Zihark moving prior to 3-E, although Jill is a maybe since she's always been "meh" in the DB chapters from my experiences.

[Florete]

It was just something that piqued my curiosity since it never came up in a tier list discussion (and I've read a lot of tier lists discussions). I agree that Jill and Zihark are better units on such a weak team, but one could argue that if they were planned taken to the GMs (which means Jill and Zihark would be supported. And Volug/Nolan can be supported with Edward/Aran), the Dawn Brigade could benefit from being a smaller team as it means less of a spread of CEXP and characters like Aran and Edward become more efficient because of it.

As for Jill and Zihark, while their performance become noticeably less efficient in the GM, it can be argued that their performance become far better lategame due to higher amounts of CEXP than that would if they sticked with the DB.

If they've been used, then there are already likely fewer DB members that have been used anyway, and taking them away may mean even fewer, possibly turning bad. And yeah, they would have to be supporting or they would lose their support as well as more or less eliminate another's support.

Waiting for Fox to finish the response until I post in response.

Moving Jill/Zihark teams would depend on how many GM units I'm using, since if I'm already strapped for slots they'll just be benched (whereas the DB can pretty much field everyone every chapter). Additionally, they're gonna be pretty crappy (Jill in particular, at least Zihark can double sometimes) so I have to ask whether them sucking in Part 3 and giving the DB hell in 3-12/13 is worth a few extra levels in Part 4.

It's done.

Jill has a lot of speed. She should be able to double fine.

[HeroMystic]

@Paperblade and Fox: I agree with the majority of what was said (although it didn't take much to convince me. The GMs are hard to top without some form of favortism).

Moving Jill/Zihark teams would depend on how many GM units I'm using, since if I'm already strapped for slots they'll just be benched (whereas the DB can pretty much field everyone every chapter). Additionally, they're gonna be pretty crappy (Jill in particular, at least Zihark can double sometimes) so I have to ask whether them sucking in Part 3 and giving the DB hell in 3-12/13 is worth a few extra levels in Part 4.

I'm tempted to say no since Zihark moving prior to 3-E, although Jill is a maybe since she's always been "meh" in the DB chapters from my experiences.

However, I will say that in terms of "crappiness", they're only going to be crappy in terms of durability, not so much in terms of damage. Jill with Brave Axe and a Forged weapon kills just fine, and Zihark with Brave Sword or Silver Sword/Blade kills just fine as well. It's just that they're quite frail for their level as HM units tend to 2-3 round even the GMs.

Onto a more pressing matter however, why is Leanne > Rafiel?

[Florete]

Onto a more pressing matter however, why is Leanne > Rafiel?

I'd be happy to explain, as it took me a while to realize it as well.

Some think Rafiel>Leanne for being able to always refresh 4 units and not just 2. The problem is availability and what they do in those chapters. Rafiel has 2 pre-part 4 chapters. One is a swamp, so he's usually refreshing no more than 2 units and can't hardly move. The other is in tight spaces mostly, and still has only two units with Canto, one of whom sucks.

Leanne, on the other hand, has 4 pre-part 4 chapters. The first has 4 other units that all have Canto, so she's vigoring two units every time. The next is in fog-of-war and is a pretty tough chapter, and the linear design makes using Leanne very easy. Then 2-E, it's up to her to give your team more than one heal a turn (Elincia) and generally helps you clear enemies much, much faster. In 3-11, she can cover potholes, and although it isn't quite as easy to get two units in position, it is still better than what Rafiel has.

In part 4, Rafiel starts on a map that has you facing a three-front fight. Not good for vigoring very many people. Add to that the fact that mounted units don't do well in his next chapter, and neither does he in more tight spaces.

Leanne is still in more open spaces. Linear in the first chapter no matter which way she goes, and then the desert, where her movement isn't hindered. All of this is why Leanne>Rafiel.

Edited January 15, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[HeroMystic]

I'd argue that Rafiel's 1-7 isn't as bad as it seems if you leave Naliah behind to destroy stuff in favor of vigoring the other units, but it doesn't matter since I agree with everything else.

Other than that I'm satisfied with this list, although personally I believe Edward sucks on Hard Mode.

[Reikken]

a few questions:

what difficulty mode?

what about transfer bonuses?

what is the goal? (ex: to beat the game quickly (in regards to number of turns)? to beat the game with getting everything and with minimal to no risk of game overs? etc.)

[Florete]

a few questions:

what difficulty mode?

what about transfer bonuses?

what is the goal? (ex: to beat the game quickly (in regards to number of turns)? to beat the game with getting everything and with minimal to no risk of game overs? etc.)

Either one should work. Hard mode when it comes down to it.

Considered, not definite. Basically, chance of a transfer > none.

Kind of both but with less emphasis on number of turns. Basically, the overall worth of a character based on availability and how much he or she helps/hurts the team.

[Reikken]

kk.

Hard and normal are quite different, especially with regards to bexp, since normal mode effectively has four times as much. Or even more, actually, since meeting bexp requirements is harder on hard mode. The switch from normal to hard is a very heavy blow things that rely on capping and then using bexp to pump up remaining stats, or using bexp to help with being underleveled.

and.... ok.

Now, comments on the list... (assuming hard mode) The gap between Zihark and Mia looks too big. Or rather, Zihark is too high. He's good, but not that good. Nolan and Volug > him. Atk, hp, def. And move, in Volug's case, and w1n earlygame in Nolan's. Mia might be too low as well.

Sothe that high looks odd. He's certainly awesome early on, but he's meh in part 3 and outright sucks in part 4.

Soren is way too high. Sages in general kinda suck in this game, and then 18 base spd with a 35% growth is pretty bad, so his offense suffers. Then his defense and move obviously suck. Then his luck is poor, too, which can spell instadeath in part 4 especially. Lots of enemies have extant crit rates in this game.

Calill is better than Soren because she actually has spd. And much less issue with being critkilled.

Haar is pwn and all, but that's too high. He has his flaws. Spd in particular. Jill is also too low. Jill >= Haar.

Edward is also too high. His offense isn't bad at all, but his defense is horrible. Melee + fail def/hp is a very bad combination. He might not fail there once he hits tier 3 in part 4, but that's a very very long time to be running around with suck defenses. Such a huge gap between Leo and Edward? I might even argue Leo as better than Edward.

Gareth and Ena in bottom tier?? Blood Tide is incredible. I don't know what you were thinking putting them there.

then a wtf @ Laura in high tier. How...? Laura is like... Rhys.

Edited January 16, 2009 by Reikken

[Florete]

Hard and normal are quite different, especially with regards to bexp, since normal mode effectively has four times as much. Or even more, actually, since meeting bexp requirements is harder on hard mode. The switch from normal to hard is a very heavy blow things that rely on capping and then using bexp to pump up remaining stats, or using bexp to help with being underleveled

While what you say is mostly true, I find there to still be enough BEXP in hard mode, even with mostly clear bonus, to get the job done in fixing stats assuming one hasn't been RNG screwed. And then it pretty much switches back to normal mode halfway through part 3.

Now, comments on the list... (assuming hard mode) The gap between Zihark and Mia looks too big. Or rather, Zihark is too high. He's good, but not that good. Nolan and Volug > him. Atk, hp, def. And move, in Volug's case, and w1n earlygame in Nolan's. Mia might be too low as well.

I don't know. I might be able to see Volug > Zihark, but Zihark's level lead + speed beats Nolan IMO. I actually thought Mia might have been too high, but I'll leave her for now.

Sothe that high looks odd. He's certainly awesome early on, but he's meh in part 3 and outright sucks in part 4.

"Meh" in part 3? Because of Beastkiller, he's your best offensive unit for 2 of them and still doing fine in the other one. That's pretty good to me. Even though he isn't as good in part 4, I wouldn't call it "sucking". He still doubles and dodges fairly reliably.

Soren is way too high. Sages in general kinda suck in this game, and then 18 base spd with a 35% growth is pretty bad, so his offense suffers. Then his defense and move obviously suck. Then his luck is poor, too, which can spell instadeath in part 4 especially. Lots of enemies have extant crit rates in this game.

Calill is better than Soren because she actually has spd. And much less issue with being critkilled.

This whole thing actually makes me very happy. I've always believed Calill > Soren but never thought I could achieve it.

Haar is pwn and all, but that's too high. He has his flaws. Spd in particular. Jill is also too low. Jill >= Haar.

As much as I'd like to agree, you'll have to go a bit more in-depth. Everyone else is convinced Haar is the definition of pwn.

Edward is also too high. His offense isn't bad at all, but his defense is horrible. Melee + fail def/hp is a very bad combination. He might not fail there once he hits tier 3 in part 4, but that's a very very long time to be running around with suck defenses. Such a huge gap between Leo and Edward? I might even argue Leo as better than Edward.

I could never see Leo > Edward, but I have been considering moving Edward down.

Gareth and Ena in bottom tier?? Blood Tide is incredible. I don't know what you were thinking putting them there.

I never got the hype of Blood Tide. I've never seen it help very much except maybe in 4-E-5, and Gareth especially is just Spirit food.

then a wtf @ Laura in high tier. How...? Laura is like... Rhys.

Like Rhys? Bullshit. She's the only healer in part 1 and has outstanding growths. You'll have to do better than that.

[Lord Raven]

"Meh" in part 3? Because of Beastkiller, he's your best offensive unit for 2 of them and still doing fine in the other one. That's pretty good to me. Even though he isn't as good in part 4, I wouldn't call it "sucking". He still doubles and dodges fairly reliably.

Actually Nolan would be better because of Crossbows + Beastfoe + Earth support.

Like Rhys? Bullshit. She's the only healer in part 1 and has outstanding growths. You'll have to do better than that.

She can't even attack for ages, and at promotion her speed cap is pitiful and light magic just sucks in general. That pretty much sounds like Rhys.

Even if she is the only healer, she has a damn hard time surviving without centralizing your defense around her.

[Florete]

Actually Nolan would be better because of Crossbows + Beastfoe + Earth support.

I suppose, but Leo can do that as well. Sothe is still at least your second best offensive unit and is not competing for that.

She can't even attack for ages, and at promotion her speed cap is pitiful and light magic just sucks in general. That pretty much sounds like Rhys.

Even if she is the only healer, she has a damn hard time surviving without centralizing your defense around her.

I would say that being the only healer in the hardest part of the game makes her at least Upper Mid quality. She may not be able to fight, but she'll be healing so often it hardly matters. About surviving, she's not the only character that needs protection, but she at least can steer clear of any combat.

[Lord Raven]

I suppose, but Leo can do that as well. Sothe is still at least your second best offensive unit and is not competing for that.

Probably. Zihark can do some major damage with something like a Brave Sword and Nolan/Volug support and a transformed Volug does PRETTY damn well against laguz and Beorc. He has competition alright.

I would say that being the only healer in the hardest part of the game makes her at least Upper Mid quality. She may not be able to fight, but she'll be healing so often it hardly matters. About surviving, she's not the only character that needs protection, but she at least can steer clear of any combat.

Being the only Healer is a plus, but lower mid sounds fine for her. She has a hard time doing things after Part 3 (give her some credit with a physic and sleep), and before then she doesn't have ANY offense and, even if others need it, she needs it FAR more because she gets one hit KO'd. And doubled by what doesn't kill her in one hit. That's a massive minus, in my opinion.

Why is someone with such offensive and defensive failure higher than, say, Mist who is a better overall healer due to a mount after promotion? Mist doesn't fail too hard in the parts of the game she's in (she's still damn brittle though), she fails a lot less than Laura, so why is Laura above her?

[Florete]

Probably. Zihark can do some major damage with something like a Brave Sword and Nolan/Volug support and a transformed Volug does PRETTY damn well against laguz and Beorc. He has competition alright.

He's one-rounding almost all the laguz with a weapon only he can wield and being ~3-rounded in return, less from Cats. He might not win durability, but his offense is some of the best, and he still has +15 avoid with Micaiah support.

Being the only Healer is a plus, but lower mid sounds fine for her. She has a hard time doing things after Part 3 (give her some credit with a physic and sleep), and before then she doesn't have ANY offense and, even if others need it, she needs it FAR more because she gets one hit KO'd. And doubled by what doesn't kill her in one hit. That's a massive minus, in my opinion.

Are you saying she doesn't have offense in part 3? Where does that logic come from? She can be sealed at 15, given Paragon in 1-E (When the only competition is Zihark and Sothe, I find she makes much better use of it), and be kicking ass while healing in part 3. You may call that favoritism, but the early sealing hardly, if at all, hurts her, and even without Paragon she's still gaining levels fairly nicely with staff + combat.

Why is someone with such offensive and defensive failure higher than, say, Mist who is a better overall healer due to a mount after promotion? Mist doesn't fail too hard in the parts of the game she's in (she's still damn brittle though), she fails a lot less than Laura, so why is Laura above her?

Laura is better for her team. Mist > Rhys, but Rhys is still there, so Mist isn't relied upon nearly as much as Laura. Still, I might consider moving the two a bit closer.

[Reikken]

Like Rhys? Bullshit. She's the only healer in part 1 and has outstanding growths. You'll have to do better than that.

Good growths are worth anything when you can't gain the levels to use them. And while she is the only healer, she's not the only means of healing (Vulneraries heal for a lot, and Micaiah has Sacrifice), and she is also absurdly frail, unable to be exposed to any attacks at all.

Here's a calculation of Laura's level, using this as a guide for number of turns per chapter (and taking 13 for 3-6 and 8 for 3-12), and assuming she heals 80% of turns (usually no heals on the first turn, etc.), which is probably an overestimate since she has to hang back a lot because she can never be exposed to enemy attack at all.

The number of turns before 1-6 is 40. (80% = 32.) Mend half the time = 368 exp

The amount of bexp available before 1-6 is 800. 1/3 of that going to her = enough for about 67 exp

This puts her at about lv 5.35

43 turns from 1-6 to the end of pt 1, about 16 of which have a heron (~39 heals). Mend always = 468 xp.

Amount of bexp available from 1-6 to before 3-6 = 9.1k. 1/5 of that = enough for about 200 xp

lv 12.05

33 turns in 3-6, 3-12, and 3-13. 27 heals. If 10 are with Physic and the other 17 with Mend, that's 424 exp

6k bexp, 1/5 of which equals enough for about 80 exp

lv 15/3.10

Let's say she kills a couple of tigers, too. +75 exp. 15/3.85

Round it up to 4 for kicks.

Even promoting her at level 15 (when she caps spd on average), she's only hitting lv 4 second tier before part 4. That is fail. Enjoy your 18 spd and 21 mag (and 26 hp and 8 def).

more to come (not on Laura)

EDIT: fix'd

Edited January 16, 2009 by Reikken

[HeroMystic]

Hard and normal are quite different, especially with regards to bexp, since normal mode effectively has four times as much. Or even more, actually, since meeting bexp requirements is harder on hard mode. The switch from normal to hard is a very heavy blow things that rely on capping and then using bexp to pump up remaining stats, or using bexp to help with being underleveled.

I agree with this, especially in part 1 where it's harder to level your units and the lack of a weapon triangle advantage that people like Edward rely so heavily on early within the game. While that I agree that towards the end of Part 3 it goes back to feeling like Normal Mode with wtf enemies, the gameplay is entirely different on how efficient characters are.

Haar is pwn and all, but that's too high. He has his flaws. Spd in particular. Jill is also too low. Jill >= Haar.

While I agree with Jill being too low, she's not better/equal to Haar. Her earlygame trouble makes her worse than Haar, who pretty much stays great the entire game minus the mage trouble.

Edward is also too high. His offense isn't bad at all, but his defense is horrible. Melee + fail def/hp is a very bad combination. He might not fail there once he hits tier 3 in part 4, but that's a very very long time to be running around with suck defenses. Such a huge gap between Leo and Edward? I might even argue Leo as better than Edward.

I agree. Edward is massive fail in part 1 and it makes him unviable in part 3/4 unless you really baby him.

"Meh" in part 3? Because of Beastkiller, he's your best offensive unit for 2 of them and still doing fine in the other one. That's pretty good to me. Even though he isn't as good in part 4, I wouldn't call it "sucking". He still doubles and dodges fairly reliably.

If we're talking about Normal Mode, sure.

Hard Mode, he dodges a lot less and depends plenty more on Micaiah healing him, making him a bad frontline unit as it'll regularly take 2 hits from a Tiger to kill him, and 3 hits from a cat to kill him. The fact that he doesn't double is a good thing too, because he can't handle multiple enemies at once. He kills, but he doesn't survive.

[Reikken]

I haven't actually played normal mode past 3-10, but I'm pretty sure the enemy stats are still very different in the two modes for the part 3 laguz chapters and the part 4 chapters (before 4-E-3). Enemies have like 25% growths for the GM part 3 chapters, so I can understand not as much difference there since a few levels won't mean much in enemy stats, but in part 4, enemies have like 50-60% growths, so enemies a few levels higher means several stat points, and laguz stats are doubled, so a few levels higher makes a huge difference. Tigers have an effective 90% str growth, 80% def growth, for example. I'm pretty sure normal mode tigers aren't approaching 40 atk.

Edited January 16, 2009 by Reikken

[Florete]

I haven't actually played normal mode past 3-10, but I'm pretty sure the enemy stats are still very different in the two modes for the part 3 laguz chapters and the part 4 chapters (before 4-E-3). Enemies have like 25% growths for the GM part 3 chapters, so I can understand not as much difference there since a few levels won't mean much in enemy stats, but in part 4, enemies have like 50-60% growths, so enemies a few levels higher means several stat points, and I'm fairly certain normal mode tigers in part 3 DB chapters aren't approaching 40 atk.

Do you have a list of hard mode enemy stats or a way to find out exact stats? Because that would really help. I have a list of what is (I think) some normal mode enemy stats and usually use that because it doesn't usually vary too much.