OMG it's a tier list

[Florete]

No, I'm pretty sure they'd be one rounding her. At level 15 (extremely high for Leanne, since her base level is 5, unless you want to BEXP her for some strange reason), she has 31 HP/15 res. I'm certain the bishops break 30 att.

"Canto exists"? Yeah she only has 5 move untransformed (we all agree that Leanne smoking grasses is stupid because she just gets +1 move). She can't canto far. And these guys one round her. It's a lot different than getting 2+ rounded with canto, since the latter aren't shaking in their boots the entire time and can move into the bishop's attack range.

In that case, it more or less depends on where she goes. If she heads east, no Purge is hitting her, that's definite.

The closest spot she can start is 12 spaces from the Purging Bishop, and that's if you start her ahead of your army. Especially if you have physical foot units, I can't find it difficult to keep her out of range of him until he runs out. If you want, an untransformed Skrimir can just take it for 3 turns while being healed.

let's say that Haar is going to tank 4 enemies on enemy phase. He'll get a swing in on all of them. And on player phase he swings at 1 enemy of his choice. Now without Leanne, that's 5 attacks. With Leanne, that's 6. Leanne only increases the number of attacks he does by 20%, and NOT this 100% that people like you seem to be assuming about dancers. Using Leanne doesn't mean you get 2 separate Haars that you can spread around the map and tank two different places at once. It means Haar gets a few more extra attacks.

"People like me." Heh

All you said about the enemy phase is true, but have you thought of what can be done on the player phase with Leanne? She's not just Haar, she's another unit as well. This means another possible heal, rescue, drop, move, attack, etc. with someone else as well as whatever Haar is doing on his phase (Considering he's the other one being Vigored, of course). Leanne isn't there specifically to help Haar. Plus, another move on the player phase allows for more flexibility in positioning your units because more enemies have been killed. This is also especially helpful in the desert when searching for items and when a unit needs to be ferried.

Don't forget the possibility of Bliss/Sorrow and healing as well. I'll admit her healing is mostly useless unless she's transformed, but that doesn't mean it can't be useful. I'll also admit Sorrow is pretty unlikely to be used, but it can be like a boosted Bliss if your units are already at the top of their Biorythm, and you probably aren't doing it if you don't plan on killing those enemies.

All that said, I might be able to see Haar > Leanne, but I wouldn't yet call it enough of a win to move her from top tier.

[Vykan12]

The problem is she can't be haar + someone else without Haar, and that would be counting Haar's usefulness.

The problem is if it’s not Haar, then it’s the second best unit. But then you can recursively argue that the second best unit won’t be used, and so forth. So using the “if X isn’t deployed” versus “if Y isn’t deployed” is an invalid argument in this case since Leanne depends on vigoring any units, but those units are guaranteed to be there, hence why you can’t suppose they’re not.

Say we gotta have someone tank that general swarm in 2-E. Without Haar, good luck at that because your best tanks are laguz (Mordy/Nealuchi as avoid tank) and no 2-range. Without Leanne, you can have Haar plug that hole, but he loses some extra player phases that Leanne could've given him. But at least you get the main job done, which is plugging that hole.

First, 2-E is somewhat of a bad example due to your limited choice of units. Look at something like 3-11, for instance, and you’ll have a lot more competent tanks for Leanne to vigor.

Also, Brom w/ the hammer or Elincia (assuming no bow users) could adequately tank the right side in any case.

Again, you actually need the uber units on the team for the herons to actually chant them.

And they’re going to be there. In part 2, Elincia is auto-deployed and a win character, so Leanne has her at the very least. And the majority of Leanne’s performance is in part 4, where she has the likes of Naesala, Skrimir and whatever powerhouses you send to the DB, and 4-E-5 has your top 10 optional units.

You can still get a lot of things done with Haar, it just goes a little slower. Again, a lot of work is done on enemy phase.

Leanne is helping Haar get more enemy phase exposure though. Suppose in 4-3 Haar attacks some enemies south, clears them, and returns north. Normally, he’d have to wait another turn before taking on a group of enemies in the middle of the map, but Leanne allows him to do that on the same turn.

let's say that Haar is going to tank 4 enemies on enemy phase. He'll get a swing in on all of them. And on player phase he swings at 1 enemy of his choice. Now without Leanne, that's 5 attacks. With Leanne, that's 6. Leanne only increases the number of attacks he does by 20%, and NOT this 100% that people like you seem to be assuming about dancers.

Or Haar could kill that enemy on player phase then canto into an area with uninjured enemies while your weaker characters take care of the enemies Haar had already weakened. Or he could rescue someone, look for a secret item, make a trade, etc.

Using Leanne doesn't mean you get 2 separate Haars that you can spread around the map and tank two different places at once. It means Haar gets a few more extra attacks

It all depends on the situation. Leanne boosting Haar’s mobility by up to 7 squares doesn't just mean a few more attacks, it means he can continually fight enemies before others can catch up to him, or he can move more efficiently from areas without enemies to those with them, etc. I will agree though that people misuse the notion of a heron giving you multiple characters, as it’s technically just the function of that character’s extra move on the given turn in addition to some of its consequences.

But when we start getting to the best of the best, I'd much rather take the combat unit than the heron.

The problem is those statements are kind of void since we’re using a bunch of units cohesively, not just taking the sum of individual performances. Also, you can pass on a top tier fighter like Tibarn in 4-E whereas passing on the heron hurts you more, and I feel that way for almost every map, so I tend to disagree with that statement.

Edited January 22, 2009 by Vykan12

[Florete]

I just thought of something. Should the Black Knight be on the list (the real list)? It might sound strange, but he has three chapters whereas Gareth, Nasir, and Lehran are on there and they have even fewer chapters. If you think he should be on, where would he be?

[charmander6000]

I think the biggest argument against that is the Black Knight can't be taken to endgame. Another one could be his placement; he's the best unit on the field, but would a tier player use him if he's going to cease to exist?

[Lord Raven]

I'd either completely disclude Gareth and Nasir or include those two + The Black Knight.

Now, Orson in FE8.........

[Vykan12]

I just thought of something. Should the Black Knight be on the list (the real list)? It might sound strange, but he has three chapters whereas Gareth, Nasir, and Lehran are on there and they have even fewer chapters. If you think he should be on, where would he be?

The BK is one of those few playable characters in the series who's forced to die because of the plot, so I don't see much reason to rank him. Though, if he were ranked, he'd probably be somewhere near Nailah.

[Mekkah]

but would a tier player use him if he's going to cease to exist?

That's hardly good reasoning at all. It would be if a tier list's goal was to judge endgame potential, but there's much more to it.

Black Knight is simply top tier for 2 maps in Part 1 and one map in Part 3. I can see reasons for arguing him above, say, Caineghis, who is only around when every other laguz royal is, as well as every single one of your best units having hax weapons and skills. Black Knight has 1-9 where he really really really increases your efficiency (the less you use him, the more you have to use Micaiah). And 1-F, where he still does, though he's now competing with Nailah - lots of mov vs lots of 2-range, pretty much.

[Florete]

I'd either completely disclude Gareth and Nasir or include those two + The Black Knight.

Now, Orson in FE8.........

What about Lehran? All 3 are around less then the BK.

The BK is one of those few playable characters in the series who's forced to die because of the plot, so I don't see much reason to rank him. Though, if he were ranked, he'd probably be somewhere near Nailah.

I don't think that not being around at the end of the game is enough to keep him off the list considering there are 3 characters that, although they are there at the end of the game, have even less playtime. Looking at turn count more than map count, it's possible for the BK to be around even more than anyone who shows up for endgame only.

I had thought a while back of taking Lehran off the list entirely because he just isn't around for long. I can still see the dragons staying on the list, but Lehran and the BK are a tougher question.

[_____]

If Cuan and Ethlin are on FE4 Gen 1 tier lists, then the BK should probably be on, imo. :/

[TheEnd]

If Cuan and Ethlin are on FE4 Gen 1 tier lists, then the BK should probably be on, imo. :/

... except that they're available for 1/3 of FE4 (prologue-3).

[Ether]

Just pulling away from the topic at hand but,shouldn't Lethe be higher than Tormod/Bastian/Danved/Nealuchi/Pelleas?After all,her availabliity is much greater than all of them,and despite not being among the likes of Haar or Titania,she is quite useable in her part 3 chapters,and performs decently in endgame due to constant doubling and decent strength

(~30-32 transformed on average,if you invest in a strength drop,she benefits from it twice as much as a beorc unit,so it isn't a horrible investment,bringing her to ~34-36 Str,which is comparable to Ike's endgame might,with much higher chance to double)

[_____]

... except that they're available for 1/3 of FE4 (prologue-3).

They still leave. That was the main point against the Black Knight.

[TheEnd]

They still leave. That was the main point against the Black Knight.

... the Black Knight is playable for like 3 chapters, in a game with 42. Ethlin and Cuan stay for 4 in a game with 12. It sounds a bit silly to compare both cases just because "they still leave".

Edited January 31, 2009 by TheEnd

[Paperblade]

Just pulling away from the topic at hand but,shouldn't Lethe be higher than Tormod/Bastian/Danved/Nealuchi/Pelleas?After all,her availabliity is much greater than all of them,and despite not being among the likes of Haar or Titania,she is quite useable in her part 3 chapters,and performs decently in endgame due to constant doubling and decent strength

(~30-32 transformed on average,if you invest in a strength drop,she benefits from it twice as much as a beorc unit,so it isn't a horrible investment,bringing her to ~34-36 Str,which is comparable to Ike's endgame might,with much higher chance to double)

Lethe's bases are barely better than Lyre's but she has inferior growths and affinity and a higher starting level. Her base of 12 (24 transformed) Speed and starting at effectively Level 42 (or 20/20/2 for EXP calcs) means that she'll quickly run into doubling issues (if she doesn't have them already) in Part 3, and only having 26 Attack isn't helping. Really, the only reason she's as high as she is because she's usable in Part 2 (and even then she's pretty bad, since the only 2 units even arguably worse are Neph and Heather).

By the way, 26 Attack means she's doing single digit damage to everything that's not a Sage or Swordmaster, but she can't double the latter (so it's at best a 3 round), which leaves Sages, which are a joke for pretty much everyone else. She gets utterly raped if she's hit while untransformed (doubled by anything with only 9 Defense? A 30 attack SM leaves her with 10HP, Warriors/Generals/Dragonmasters could one round). Even with 2 levels and +1 Strike level, that's only 26 Speed and like 32.8 Attack, which is still pretty bad for a Laguz (has the cost of no 2 range/has to spam Grass, which is why most of them are utter rape when transformed; see Volug/Ranulf/Ulki/Janaff). She's a waste of EXP and a waste of a slot. All the units you listed have the advantage of being easier to level (Tormod w/Paragon gets a crapton of EXP just for hitting stuff in 4-4), turn out better (or start at such a high level that they don't need me to throw EXP at them anyway: See Bastian), and don't require me to put with like 10 chapters of their suck before they start being somewhat useful.

Anyway, other stuffs.

Why is Ena below Kurthnaga? Why is she in Bottom Tier? Blood Tide owns and Night Tide sux and Kurth's advantage in Attack doesn't make up for that. Ena also has Boon, which is a free Restore, which is particularly useful in 4-E-1 because of Hetzel's Sleep. I mean sure, Kurth has Formshift, but a Laguz Stone pretty much does the same thing (especially since Dragons untransform slooooooooooooow and the Dragons attacking is generally a waste of time anyway).

Also, why is Neph above Ranulf? She's pretty much garbage in Part 2 without stealing Geo's Brave Lance or something and doesn't do much better in Part 3. Here, Level 10 Neph (that's 9 levels in 5 chapters, really freaking high considering 2-1 and 2-2 is mostly unpromoted garbage that she gets single digit EXP for killing and half of 2-E is Generals which she does <5 damage to without the Stl Greatlance which she won't double with and still does <10).

At most Neph will have 1 support rank higher than Ranulf since she's around a bit before him. Maybe 2 if she's supporting Brom or Heather.

So 20/10 Neph vs. Base Ranulf in 3-4

Neph has 36.1HP.

Ranulf has 55HP.

Neph with C Ike has 92 Avoid.

Base Ranulf has 98 Avoid.

Neph with B Brom (or C any Def affinity, really) has 19.2 Defense and 18.4 Res.

Ranulf has 26 Defense and 20 Res.

Neph with a +5 Atk Steel Lance (15 Might total) and an attack support has 34.2 Attack +some crit (like 5%)

Ranulf has 36 Attack.

Well that's certainly a shitstomp if I ever saw one. Neph gets a generous amount of levels and even if she magically had a support partner that gave everything she'd still lose to base Ranulf.

So Level 1 Sentinel vs. 27 Ranulf w/S Strike in 3-E

We'll give Ranulf a B Haar support.

Neph has 44.5HP.

Ranulf has 55.7HP.

Neph with A Ike has 122.6 Avoid.

Ranulf has 109.4 Avoid.

Neph has 24.5 Defense and 22 Resistance.

Ranulf has 26.3 Defense and 20.2 Resistance.

Neph with a +5 Atk Steel Lance (15 Might total) and A attack support has 41.6 Attack +some crit (like 12 or so)

Ranulf has 41.6 Attack.

Neph is barely winning (She has Impale), but she's still gotten a VERY generous level lead, 20 levels in 12 chapters whereas Ranulf got 1 in 6. Even considering Ranulf's high base level, that's a huge difference

Edited February 1, 2009 by Paperblade

[CT075]

Really, let's screw playing the game just so we can calculate the advantages and disadvantages and argue about them on the internet![/Mekkah] Please. I don't see the point of tier lists unless Septimus and 3-13 Archer are there.

[Florete]

Really, let's screw playing the game just so we can calculate the advantages and disadvantages and argue about them on the internet![/Mekkah] Please. I don't see the point of tier lists unless Septimus and 3-13 Archer are there.

They are on it.

@Paperblade: been edit'd.

[charmander6000]

Why is Ena below Kurthnaga? Why is she in Bottom Tier? Blood Tide owns and Night Tide sux and Kurth's advantage in Attack doesn't make up for that. Ena also has Boon, which is a free Restore, which is particularly useful in 4-E-1 because of Hetzel's Sleep. I mean sure, Kurth has Formshift, but a Laguz Stone pretty much does the same thing (especially since Dragons untransform slooooooooooooow and the Dragons attacking is generally a waste of time anyway).

Boon can be attached to all Dragons so that doesn't give her an advantage over Kurth. Still Ena's support is much better than Kurth's and with this being a tier discussion Kurth's attacking doesn't look good. If only Kurth could be used in part 4 before endgame.

[CT075]

They are on it.

@Paperblade: been edit'd.

Oops. My bad.

[Mekkah]

Please. I don't see the point of tier lists unless Septimus and 3-13 Archer are there.

Welcome to the tier list thread then? You don't see me posting in every FFtF thread or class-by-class thread that I think they're pointless.

[Lord Raven]

I think he was joking, Mekkah.

[Mekkah]

only half joking if you ask me

[Paperblade]

Why is Mia above Ranulf?

She sucks crap in 3-P and 3-1 because she's like 2HKO'd by everything and her best weapon is a Steel Sword (lulz, ~26-27 attack vs. enemies with liek 20 Def). Then in 3-2 she's alright except oh wait, she has serious issues with Dragonmasters because her base Strength of 17 means that she's like 5HKOing them or something with a Steel Blade (she has like 32 atk with a level up + support) and still has crappy durability.

And then Ranulf joins and shits all over Mia's durability. His base HP and Defense are higher than her Trueblade caps, which aside from being hilarious, means he wins concrete durability at base level forever, and then his base Speed is her SM cap, so even factoring in crappy Laguz leveling she'll only have a minor Speed advantage after promoting, if that, and then Ranulf has an affinity that gives Avoid and moar Luck. Base level Ranulf has 36 Attack, which Mia needs to be like Level 16 to tie that with an A support, and has liek 98 Avoid after authority, which is pretty awesome.

Sure, 1-2 range, but 1-2 range, like everything else in the game, only matters if you're good at it. And Mia is the poster child for shitty 1-2 range. Wind Edges have terrible Might and can't be forged, and Mia has terrible Strength. Even at Level 20 with a full Atk support she only has 31 attack with the Wind Edge, never mind at like Level 10-12 when Ranulf joins and she has like 19 and liek a +1-2 Atk support. Oh yay, 26 Attack, that's single digit damage on everything but Sages/SMs, which she 2 rounds. Sure, I COULD have Mia be able to counter that Sniper for damage of suck and fail levels and then have the misfortune of having her counter every melee enemy that attacks her that turn for the same piddling damage, or I could've used Ranulf, and had him roflstomp the melee dudes and been like "Oh the Sniper's undamaged, Ranulf will just rape it next turn". Mia's 1-2 range sucks so much that her being able to counter at 1-2 range is insignificant because I'l probably going to need 2 guys to finish them for her sorry ass anyway (since most people on my team don't do like 30 damage in one round yet, since that requires like 35+ attack and doubling or liek 50 attack). With a Wind Edge she loses in offense to a CROSSBOW until she's a Trueblade (no supports, otherwise she has to be about 15-16), and then we consider that the Crossbow gives +10 Crit (so even Warriors/Reavers get about the same Crit as her before Skill) and that it's got 100 Hit, and lolMia.

Ranulf's also got a Mastery skill that doesn't have a terrible activation rate, so even with the +20 Crit that Trueblades get Mia still lacks a significant advantage in "lolOHKO" ability.

Hell, why is Mia that high at all? Sure, she has a wtfdefense growth (40%? lulz, that beats every DB unit save Aran/Tauroneo/Fiona), but 34HP/13 Defense base means that you only need 30 Attack to one round her, which means that Anything not a Swordmaster + Anything 2 shots her, which means that the only difference between her durability and Soren's is that Soren's doubled by Swordmasters, gets one shotted by maybe the 1 enemy per map with liek 40 attack (about as rare as Hammer/Horseslayer/Thunder/Wyrmslayer enemies), but has 1-2 range that isn't garbage. And then her affinity doesn't boost her durability AT ALL, and then she's got terrible base Strength with a poor cap.

She's a poor unit in general until she promotes, since she's basically forced into melee range but has poor concrete durability and doesn't have hax enough Avoid to make up for it (~94 Avoid at Level 10 with Authority, which is pretty bad considering that most enemies have like 120+ hit, and Snipers and dudes can get up to like 150) and Bio makes things worse. Vantage works poorly because just 1 hit from her is crappy, and giving her Adept is insignificant because she still has issues 3HKOing most stuff, whereas an activation on a dude like Haar or Titania that has less Speed but liek 12 more Attack would mean death.

Sure, she's pretty good after she promotes due to being carried by her +3 Str/Def promo gains and her growths finally having had a good effect on her and buyable Killing Edges in 3-E, but by then I have Ragnell and everyone else is also promoted and no longer limited by stupidly weak Speed caps and has uber masteries that compensate for Mia's crit (lolastra). And in Part 4 I get the royals and awesomesauce Volug and Skrimir, and if I really really want to field 2 Trueblades in 4-E I could just use Stefan who's pretty much just as good and Heaven is actually useful in 4-E because Ashera has 144 Avoid (for reference, a Marksman with capped stats and the Double Bow has 210 Hit, which is only 64 Hit vs. Ashera, 84 with both Blood Tides, 34/54 respectively if you want to avoid her counter, MOAR HIT is good, especially since nubs like Ike don't have 40 Skl/30 Luck and 100 Hit weapons)

Sure, she has boobs, but if I really cared about that I'd go to an 18 or older website or something.

[Florete]

she's like 2HKO'd by everything

Eh? Most things things are 3-rounding her. A couple enemies 2-round her, but they have crap hit on her.

she has serious issues with Dragonmasters

HA! Heard of Wyrmslayers? She can one-round those bastards. The only other people possibly capable of wielding it are Ike and Brom. I really hope I don't have to explain why they won't be wielding it.

Stuff about Ranulf

That's nice and all, but you completely left out the fact that he comes with a transformation gauge that sucks. Only the Heron's gauges go down faster, but they don't fight. Even with a shot of Olivi Grass he still has to wait two more turns. If he's to be kept transformed, he has to be smoking about every other turn if he is to fight consistently.

Sure, 1-2 range, but 1-2 range, like everything else in the game, only matters if you're good at it.

Her range isn't wtfpwnage, but it's better than losing 4 of your gauge and having nothing to show for it.

I'll get to the rest later.

[Vykan12]

She sucks crap in 3-P and 3-1 because she's like 2HKO'd by everything and her best weapon is a Steel Sword (lulz, ~26-27 attack vs. enemies with liek 20 Def).

I think you’re exaggerating the 2HKO thing (this can be checked with enemy stats, too lazy to do it now), though more importantly, the Wo Dao is Mia’s best weapon here, as it gives her >50% crit chance in 2 hits against anything she faces, substantially higher with adept in case she gets it. Considering not even w1n GMs like Titania and Gatrie can even double yet, Mia’s actually one of your better offensive units in these 2 chapters.

Then in 3-2 she's alright except oh wait, she has serious issues with Dragonmasters because her base Strength of 17 means that she's like 5HKOing them or something with a Steel Blade (she has like 32 atk with a level up + support) and still has crappy durability.

There are 6 buyable wyrmslayers over the course of the game.

And then Ranulf joins and shits all over Mia's durability.

That is indeed true.

and then Ranulf has an affinity that gives Avoid and moar Luck.

Mia develops her supports earlier, at any rate.

Base level Ranulf has 36 Attack, which Mia needs to be like Level 16 to tie that with an A support

She also has constant player phase whereas Ranulf needs olivi grass every 2-3 turns.

Sure, 1-2 range, but 1-2 range, like everything else in the game, only matters if you're good at it.

Later on, tempest blades show up, and Mia gets hit from her affinity to offset the tempest blade’s horrible 55 hit rate.

Ranulf's also got a Mastery skill that doesn't have a terrible activation rate, so even with the +20 Crit that Trueblades get Mia still lacks a significant advantage in "lolOHKO" ability.

Ranulf also cannot use forged weapons (which are infinite in this game and fairly cost efficient), or other killer/special weapon types.

but 34HP/13 Defense base means that you only need 30 Attack to one round her

I think you mean 2 round.

which means that the only difference between her durability and Soren's is that Soren's doubled by Swordmasters, gets one shotted by maybe the 1 enemy per map with liek 40 attack (about as rare as Hammer/Horseslayer/Thunder/Wyrmslayer enemies), but has 1-2 range that isn't garbage.

You seem to like to ignore avoid, of which there is a huge disparity between Mia and Soren.

And then her affinity doesn't boost her durability AT ALL

That doesn’t prevent her from getting partial durability boosts.

and then she's got terrible base Strength with a poor cap.

That’s not a terribly concerning issue with how high activation rates can get. For instance, with 32 spd and 25 display crit, the odds of at least one adept, astra or crit in 2 hits is 82%, and even removing adept from the equation, still amounts to 61%. Also, you can plan which weapons to use in a specific situation, meaning Mia could use her 61-82% activation with say, a steel/silver blade vs generals, or when going against a group of much less durable enemies like warriors/halberdiers, she can opt to use a killing edge and up her activation above 90%.

and doesn't have hax enough Avoid to make up for it (~94 Avoid at Level 10 with Authority, which is pretty bad considering that most enemies have like 120+ hit)

What’s wrong with that? 120-94 = 26, which is 13.78 true. If you give her a wind/thunder support, then her avo goes up by 8, at which point she’s only facing 6.6 true.

and Snipers and dudes can get up to like 150) and Bio makes things worse.

You’re exaggerating. The only part 3 enemies I know of who reach 150ish hit are enemy priests, and they have low att. There’s also some 140-150 hit generals in 4-E-1, but that’s a lot later on. And you also have to consider Mia’s avoid growth, which is 165%, in addition to the jumps associated with promotion and support building. She’ll pass 100 avo rather quickly.

and giving her Adept is insignificant because she still has issues 3HKOing most stuff

Really now? I’ve seen her one round enemies with steel blades in 3-2 NM, how much stronger do you think these HM enemies are? In any case, we can always check int’s enemy stats to verify your claims.

but by then I have Ragnell and everyone else is also promoted and no longer limited by stupidly weak Speed caps and has uber masteries that compensate for Mia's crit (lolastra).

This is a pretty generalizing argument. As a simple counter, a lot of GMs still have trouble doubling in third tier, especially stuff like those 4-4 enemies (you need 29-30 spd to double consistently there), and obviously Mia’s faring better in 2-3 attacks (considering proc%ages) than others are in 1.

And in Part 4 I get the royals and awesomesauce Volug and Skrimir, and if I really really want to field 2 Trueblades in 4-E I could just use Stefan who's pretty much just as good and Heaven is actually useful in 4-E because Ashera has 144 Avoid.

You can say this to try and make anyone look bad (why the hell do I need Gatrie and his low ass move when I can h3x 4-1 and 4-4 with the likes of Ike, Nailah and Titania?). Try and avoid arguments about the necessity of a unit, as it is not an accurate reflection of a unit’s worth.

Edited February 24, 2009 by Vykan12

[Paperblade]

I curse the lack of enemy stats for Part 4.

I think you’re exaggerating the 2HKO thing (this can be checked with enemy stats, too lazy to do it now),

She gets 2HKO'd by any Axe using enemy, any Lance user (save the Javelin Halberdier), and barely survives from Steel Sword using Generals. In 3-1 she MIGHT survive Steel Lance Halberdiers and Sages.

Either way, this is far inferior to every other unit that's stuck with melee.

For reference:

Ike has +10HP/+8 Defense and only 1 less Resistance. 30 attack enemies 5HKO him, 32 attack enemies 4HKO him, 36 attack enemies 3HKO him. The only enemies that are strong enough to 3HKO Ike are Sages and Steel Poleaxe Warriors.

Titania has +2HP/+7 Def/+6 Resistance. Sages 4HKO her. 30 Attack enemies 4HKO her.

Boyd has +11HP/+2 Defense and ties Res. Swordmasters DOUBLE him and he's still tying Mia's concrete durability vs. them.

Oscar has +4HP/+5 Def/+5 Res. Sages 4HKO him. 30 attack enemies also 4HKO him.

Gatrie has +10HP/+11 Def/+3 Res. Sages 4HKO him. 30 attack enemies 8HKO him. Hell, the strongest enemy on the map 4HKOs Gatrie. The strongest enemy on the map takes more hits to kill Gatrie than the weakest enemy does to kill Mia, and then Gatrie has 39 attack with his starting weapon, which means that he 2HKOs every enemy *anyway*.

Oscar and Titania are also one shotted by the Horseslayer General. However, I've never seen him move and have no reason to believe he moves.

though more importantly, the Wo Dao is Mia’s best weapon here, as it gives her >50% crit chance in 2 hits against anything she faces, substantially higher with adept in case she gets it. Considering not even w1n GMs like Titania and Gatrie can even double yet, Mia’s actually one of your better offensive units in these 2 chapters.

Mia can't even use Adept until 3-2, and I was referring to 3-P/3-1. With the Wo Dao she has 24 attack, and enemy stats are

Swordmasters: 33HP/15 Defense, 4HKO, requires 2 crits.

Halberdiers: 36HP/18 Defense, 6HKO, requires 2 crits. Some of them are doubled by Ike.

Warriors: 40HP/15 Defense, 5HKO, requires 2 crits. Doubled by Shinon.

Snipers: 35HP/16 Defense, 5HKO, requires 2 crits. Doubled by Shinon.

Fire Sages: 31-32HP/12 Defense, 3HKO, requires 1 crit (keep in mind that these enemies are very slow and can be doubled at base level by Ike/Titania/Oscar/Shinon, and Gatrie requires only +1 Speed to double them)

Generals: 23-24 Defense, 1 damage at best, not even worth talking about. Doubled by Ike/Shinon.

In 3-1, if she got +1 attack in 3-P (unlikely considering the sheer lack of enemies to be killed due to Skrimir), she'll be able to kill Warriors/Snipers in 1 crit. Note that this means that has a miniscule chance of one rounding most enemies that is made insignificant by her poor performance vs. Halberdiers/Warriors/Snipers and especially poor vs. Generals.

Soren can also one round Warriors/Swordmasters with an Adept activation (Adept is locked to him in 3-P/3-1). Shinon also has 5 more attack and 16 more crit, so he's even more likely to actually kill stuff with crits. Hell, he has like 15 crit vs. Warriors with the Iron Bow and 4HKOs them, so he has a ~28% chance to kill them.

Boyd starts with a Killer Axe that can also be given to Titania or Gatrie. Keep in mind that the Killer Axe gives as much Crit as Mia's class bonus and Wo Dao combined, and then wins attack vs. the Wo Dao and is used by units with more Strength than Mia.

There are 6 buyable wyrmslayers over the course of the game.

Only 1 exists prior to Part 4, unless we're actually going to spend DB money on giving Mia 2 Wyrmslayers. The Wyrmslayer also only has 20 uses, and it's quite possible to waste uses on countering enemies other than Dragons. Ike would also like the Wyrmslayer since he also doubles but falls short of a one round (although unlike Mia, he can kill them if he gets a crit, which is possible since he has like a million Bonds and Ettard gives +10 Crit).

Mia develops her supports earlier, at any rate.

Which only really serves to close the gap, beyond giving +2 attack to a bunch of units that can't double (or if you support Shinon, to a unit that can't counter on enemy phase).

She also has constant player phase whereas Ranulf needs olivi grass every 2-3 turns.

That's +1 attack per turn, which is compensated for every time Ranulf kills a unit that Mia could not have. Ranulf also has +2 Move and takes a lower penalty from thickets/gaps, meaning that this will ALSO be compensated for when he reaches an enemy that Mia couldn't have. Ranulf's attack/move advantage also makes him better for Vigor.

Later on, tempest blades show up, and Mia gets hit from her affinity to offset the tempest blade’s horrible 55 hit rate.

Ranulf also cannot use forged weapons (which are infinite in this game and fairly cost efficient), or other killer/special weapon types.

The Tempest Blade has only 15 uses, and there's only 2, and neither of them are available to Mia until Part 4 (one is from the DB, the other is a drop in 4-4).

Forged weapons are far less cost efficient than just buying a Steel/Silver Blade unless you really need the Hit, which as you pointed out with the Tempest Blade (least hit of any Sword), doesn't matter to Mia. There's also the +1-2 attack advantage, but by the time we can forge Silver, Ranulf should have SS Strike. Even with a 14 might Steel Sword, Mia with max Strength (23) and an attack affinity only beats base Ranulf by 4 attack. Keep in mind that Mia does not cap Strength on average and the only other attack affinities are Mordecai (who doesn't want a Fire affinity since he doesn't need Hit and the +1 attack from Water/Fire over Fire/something else means approximately jack to him because he never doubles), Soren (who doesn't really want it for about the same reasons as Mordecai), Boyd (also never really doubles and thus +1 atk doesn't help him much, although the hit is fine. Also, Mist/Boyd support gives a free Spirit Dust), Mist (Because the unit with 7 Strength at 20/1 and locked to Swords is going to be attacking. Also Spirit Dust), and Ulki (joins later than Ranulf, although I'll admit he'd very much like Fire).

Also: Ranulf has 43 attack with S Strike at Level 30. Mia with an 18 might Silver Sword at 20/20/1 has like 45 attack. Mia needs forges to win attack.

I think you mean 2 round.

I did. :|

You seem to like to ignore avoid, of which there is a huge disparity between Mia and Soren.

Mia has +27 Avoid over Soren, which increases to like 30 discounting supports, and then Mia's got Speed capped and ties Luck growth, so the gap steadily closes, especially since Soren has a cool affinity (basically Fire but gives Avoid instead of Hit) and is a slightly lower level. Also, Soren has a Bond support to increase Ike's already nice Crit (28 Skill + 10 from Ettard + 3 other Bonds) and can take the early Crown to healbot if you really want.

That doesn’t prevent her from getting partial durability boosts.

It does however prevent her durability from increasing to a point where it's actually better than units that aren't in Low Tier or are healers.

That’s not a terribly concerning issue with how high activation rates can get. For instance, with 32 spd and 25 display crit, the odds of at least one adept, astra or crit in 2 hits is 82%, and even removing adept from the equation, still amounts to 61%. Also, you can plan which weapons to use in a specific situation, meaning Mia could use her 61-82% activation with say, a steel/silver blade vs generals, or when going against a group of much less durable enemies like warriors/halberdiers, she can opt to use a killing edge and up her activation above 90%.

I think my comment was referring primarily to Swordmaster, but okay.

Ranulf at Level 30 with Rend and Adept would have about 32 Speed, giving him a 32% activation for both, giving him a 79% chance, 54% without Adept. Obviously this is slightly worse than Mia and he cannot greatly increase it with the Killing Edge, but then again if Mia uses the KE she loses Attack (since she needs a Silver Blade/Tempest Blade/forged Silver to win attack). Ranulf also has the advantage of getting a larger increase from a single stat boost since +Speed gives him +2% Adept and +2% Rend, whereas Mia needs Skill and Speed due to Crit/Astra and Adept. Mia also suffers from the fact that her weapons are in limited supply and Astra cannot crit or proc other skills, so she wastes up to 5 weapon uses if Astra activates (obviously, she shouldn't be 5HKOing as a Trueblade unless she first hit-Astras a General with a KE or something). Adept also wastes an extra weapon uses an activates at range, which really hurts her Tempest Blade usage since they're super rare.

What’s wrong with that? 120-94 = 26, which is 13.78 true. If you give her a wind/thunder support, then her avo goes up by 8, at which point she’s only facing 6.6 true.

What's wrong with that is that 120 is a serious understatement. The least accurate enemy even in 3-P has 118 Hit, whereas Swordmasters have 140+ and Steel Axe Warriors/Steel Lance Generals have ~130.

You’re exaggerating. The only part 3 enemies I know of who reach 150ish hit are enemy priests, and they have low att. There’s also some 140-150 hit generals in 4-E-1, but that’s a lot later on. And you also have to consider Mia’s avoid growth, which is 165%, in addition to the jumps associated with promotion and support building. She’ll pass 100 avo rather quickly.

You have to consider that her Speed hits a maximum about 3 levels into Swordmaster. She would need 25 Luck to surpass 100 Avoid without supports, which she doesn't get until 20/20/8. She has 22.5 Luck at 20/20, meaning that even with Wind/Dark/Thunder, she'd barely break 100 Avoid.

I was only slightly exaggerating. SMs and Snipers can get to 140, and anything with a Crossbow will easily have 150.

Really now? I’ve seen her one round enemies with steel blades in 3-2 NM, how much stronger do you think these HM enemies are? In any case, we can always check int’s enemy stats to verify your claims.

C Support, Level 10, Steel Blade: 32.4 Attack.

She does fine against Paladins, but they're only really around in 3-2 and 3-5. There are also still Generals and Dragonmasters that she won't be doing that to.

She's very borderline vs. Halbs. If she goes out of range of her support partner she won't be able to kill them. If they're on a thicket, she won't be able to kill them. If both of those happen, she'll have issues with Warriors.

This is a pretty generalizing argument. As a simple counter, a lot of GMs still have trouble doubling in third tier, especially stuff like those 4-4 enemies (you need 29-30 spd to double consistently there), and obviously Mia’s faring better in 2-3 attacks (considering proc%ages) than others are in 1.

4-4 has the highest level enemies in Part 4 prior to 4-E.

You can say this to try and make anyone look bad (why the hell do I need Gatrie and his low ass move when I can h3x 4-1 and 4-4 with the likes of Ike, Nailah and Titania?). Try and avoid arguments about the necessity of a unit, as it is not an accurate reflection of a unit’s worth.

4-P is a pretty easy overall chapter, because the enemies are Paladins (lower stats than other enemies) and are a lower level than 4-1 and 4-2 enemies. You only need like 40 attack to 2HKO and don't need a whole lot of Speed.

4-1 is fog of war and has liek half the map being 2 range, so you need good 2 range, not "I'm on your team, using up your Tempest Blades".

4-2 has a lot of thickets so Ranulf can easily pull ahead of her simply on the basis that he'll reach enemies a few turns before her.

4-3 is a desert and is much hated. The only foot units that go there are forced.

4-4 also has like half the map being 2 ranged assholes while like half of the other half are Generals, and then you've got Heather or some nub with a Chest Key running around trying to grab the treasure. And then the BEXP limit is liek 10 turns and you've got that douche with the Sleep Staff that keeps Sleeping Ike while you rage because Ike's been on steroids and you can't Shove him to speed up the Sleep because he's so heavy so you've gotta have your healer Restore Ike and then get vigor'd and heal whatever nub got swarmed last turn. Then you've got like 5 Bishops with Physics and every turn there's like 4 reinforcements half of which are also 2 ranged because that's just how 4-4 rolls. The only thing this is missing is about 20 Druids with Rewarp.

4-5 is a swamp. Ranulf has the advantage of being forced to come here so his support partner is like "yay EXP fountain".

I'm just saying that Mia being pwn in Part 4 doesn't matter quite as much because there's still like 20-30 units better than her. Sure, she's a bit better on offense than Ranulf, but Ranulf was better than her when we only had like 30 units and half of them were garbage like Lyre or Rolf. That's why dudes like Volug are higher than dudes like Nolan.

I still think that at the very least, Ranulf and Mia should switch. I just think that Ranulf roflstomps Mia too much when he exists in Part 3 and winning durability all game and being very close in melee offense in Part 4 (considering that 4-5 doesn't have ranged enemies other than the Dragons and Ranulf must go with Tibarn) to warrant Mia being above him.