OMG it's a tier list

[Florete]

Mia can't even use Adept until 3-2, and I was referring to 3-P/3-1.

(Adept is locked to him in 3-P/3-1).

This is false. Skills are removable from 3-P. I do it every game, usually to give Mia Adept, occasionally to move Provoke and Counter.

[Vykan12]

For reference:

Ike has +10HP/+8 Defense and only 1 less Resistance. 30 attack enemies 5HKO him, 32 attack enemies 4HKO him, 36 attack enemies 3HKO him. The only enemies that are strong enough to 3HKO Ike are Sages and Steel Poleaxe Warriors.

Titania has +2HP/+7 Def/+6 Resistance. Sages 4HKO her. 30 Attack enemies 4HKO her.

Boyd has +11HP/+2 Defense and ties Res. Swordmasters DOUBLE him and he's still tying Mia's concrete durability vs. them.

Oscar has +4HP/+5 Def/+5 Res. Sages 4HKO him. 30 attack enemies also 4HKO him.

Gatrie has +10HP/+11 Def/+3 Res. Sages 4HKO him. 30 attack enemies 8HKO him. Hell, the strongest enemy on the map 4HKOs Gatrie. The strongest enemy on the map takes more hits to kill Gatrie than the weakest enemy does to kill Mia, and then Gatrie has 39 attack with his starting weapon, which means that he 2HKOs every enemy *anyway*.

You keep omitting the avoid stat as though it’s entirely irrelevant.

Ike: 75 avo

Titania:76 avo

Boyd: 64 avo (also risks getting doubled a fair bit with 18 base spd)

Oscar: 75 avo

Gatrie: 70 avo

Mia: 89 avo

Mia wins avo by a margin of 14-25 against the units you listed. Let’s see how that impacts everyone.

 

1x Swordmaster lvl 7 (Steel Sword)
HP 33, Atk 25, AS 22, Hit 142, Avo 57, DEF 15, RES 20, Crit 21, Ddg 13
1x Warrior lvl 8 (Steel Axe)
HP 40, Atk 33, AS 20, Hit 129, Avo 54, DEF 15, RES 9, Crit 10, Ddg 14
1x Halberdier lvl 8 (Javelin)
HP 36, Atk 26, AS 20, Hit 118, Avo 53, DEF 18, RES 13, Crit 15, Ddg 13
1x Lance General lvl 7 (Steel Lance)
HP 37, Atk 30, AS 18, Hit 131, Avo 49, DEF 23, RES 12, Crit 9, Ddg 15
1x Warrior lvl 7 (Steel Poleax)
HP 40, Atk 36, AS 20, Hit 111, Avo 53, DEF 15, RES 9, Crit 9, Ddg 13
1x Warrior lvl 7 (Steel Axe)
HP 39, Atk 32, AS 20, Hit 126, Avo 53, DEF 15, RES 9, Crit 9, Ddg 13
1x Fire Sage lvl 6 (Elfire)
HP 31, Atk 25, AS 17, Hit 127, Avo 54, DEF 12, RES 15, Crit 8, Ddg 10
1x Sniper lvl 6 (Steel Bow, *Coin)
HP 35, Atk 29, AS 19, Hit 135, Avo 61, DEF 16, RES 11, Crit 20, Ddg 13
1x Swordmaster lvl 8 (Steel Blade)
HP 33, Atk 30, AS 23, Hit 125, Avo 70, DEF 15, RES 11, Crit 21, Ddg 14
1x Sword General lvl 8 (Steel Sword)
HP 38, Atk 28, AS 18, Hit 136, Avo 51, DEF 24, RES 13, Crit 9, Ddg 15
1x Fire Sage lvl 6 (Elfire, Vulnerary)
HP 32, Atk 25, AS 17, Hit 127, Avo 44, DEF 12, RES 15, Crit 8, Ddg 10
1x Halberdier lvl 7 (Steel Greatlance)
HP 36, Atk 33, AS 19, Hit 121, Avo 51, DEF 18, RES 13, Crit 14, Ddg 13
1x Lance General lvl 9 (Horseslayer)
HP 39, Atk 33, AS 17, Hit 119, Avo 50, DEF 23, RES 13, Crit 9, Ddg 16

For convenience I’ll just compare Mia’s avoid with Ike since everyone else aside from Boyd only differ from Ike by a few points. Everything in real hit.

Vs SMs

Ike: 50.50-78.55

Mia: 26.28-56.29

Vs Warriors

Ike: 26.28-58.14

Mia: 9.90-32.40

The rest fall pretty close in between either sample. You do have a point. The avo lead isn’t so large (as in Mia consistently facing less than ¼ of Ike’s hit rate or something) that Mia taking half as many hits easily takes precedence. So, I can’t help but agree that Mia has sub-par durability in her early chapters.

Mia can't even use Adept until 3-2, and I was referring to 3-P/3-1. With the Wo Dao she has 24 attack, and enemy stats are

I distinctly recall being able to remove skills in 3-P/3-1, I even did it in my speedrun. Did that change on HM? Been a while since I’ve played it.

Swordmasters: 33HP/15 Defense, 4HKO, requires 2 crits.

Halberdiers: 36HP/18 Defense, 6HKO, requires 2 crits. Some of them are doubled by Ike.

Warriors: 40HP/15 Defense, 5HKO, requires 2 crits. Doubled by Shinon.

Snipers: 35HP/16 Defense, 5HKO, requires 2 crits. Doubled by Shinon.

Fire Sages: 31-32HP/12 Defense, 3HKO, requires 1 crit (keep in mind that these enemies are very slow and can be doubled at base level by Ike/Titania/Oscar/Shinon, and Gatrie requires only +1 Speed to double them)

Generals: 23-24 Defense, 1 damage at best, not even worth talking about. Doubled by Ike/Shinon.

That shows Mia is in all likelihood 2 rounding, but what makes you so certain that all your non-doubling buddies are faring any better?

Shinon also has 5 more attack and 16 more crit, so he's even more likely to actually kill stuff with crits.

The problem with Shinon is that he’s a sniper, so he needs to be used with caution in order to avoid making enemy phase pointlessly inefficient with non-counters. Though, I suppose you could say the same for Mia if she’s risking 2HKOage every turn. It’s still worth considering Mia will get in more attacks per turn, and also has 5 more wo dao uses than Shinon has killer bow, and Rolf might even want a piece of that. Yes, Ike could use the wo dao, but that’s pointless if he’s ORKOing most things with his ettard.

Boyd starts with a Killer Axe that can also be given to Titania or Gatrie. Keep in mind that the Killer Axe gives as much Crit as Mia's class bonus and Wo Dao combined, and then wins attack vs. the Wo Dao and is used by units with more Strength than Mia.

Fair enough. Still, Gatrie, Titania and Boyd all being able to use it generates a lot of competition, so whoever gains this advantage still leaves 2 others without any proc%age options to counter-act what Mia has.

Only 1 exists prior to Part 4, unless we're actually going to spend DB money on giving Mia 2 Wyrmslayers.

Why not? The only wyrmslayer use I can dream of in part 1 is in 1-8, and Tormod can one round the wyvern who goes after the prisoner on the first turn with some Muarim/Vika shoving assistance.

The Wyrmslayer also only has 20 uses, and it's quite possible to waste uses on countering enemies other than Dragons. Ike would also like the Wyrmslayer since he also doubles but falls short of a one round (although unlike Mia, he can kill them if he gets a crit, which is possible since he has like a million Bonds and Ettard gives +10 Crit).

There is more to be gained from Mia 3 rounding to 1 rounding than there is Ike 2 rounding to 1 rounding, so she’ll probably get first consideration for the weapon. The limited use is negated by having Ilyana cargo one over, and it’s not as though part 3 is teeming with wyverns that Mia’s even likely to burn out the first one.

Which only really serves to close the gap, beyond giving +2 attack to a bunch of units that can't double (or if you support Shinon, to a unit that can't counter on enemy phase).

She could also support Ike. He wants the attack for upping his chances of 1RKOing generals, and she really wants the avoid for obvious reasons, so it’s a reasonable possibility.

That's +1 attack per turn, which is compensated for every time Ranulf kills a unit that Mia could not have. Ranulf also has +2 Move and takes a lower penalty from thickets/gaps, meaning that this will ALSO be compensated for when he reaches an enemy that Mia couldn't have. Ranulf's attack/move advantage also makes him better for Vigor.

All valid points. I have noticed that 1-2 range enemies take priority attacking laguz just for the sake of lowering their meter, so in some situations, Ranulf might even need to pop olivi grass for 2 consecutive turns.

The Tempest Blade has only 15 uses, and there's only 2, and neither of them are available to Mia until Part 4 (one is from the DB, the other is a drop in 4-4).

True, but the option only needs to exist to be an advantage against Ranulf’s never-existent 1-2 range. Also note that tempest blades have a whopping 18 Mt, more than any 1 range sword available at this point, and even more than Ranulf’s SS strike, so it is a significant boost while it lasts. Finally, you can steal some extra tempest blades using heather disarm strategies, though I doubt that would see much practical use.

There's also the +1-2 attack advantage, but by the time we can forge Silver, Ranulf should have SS Strike.

Now that’s pushing it. Ranulf goes from A strike to SS by 3-E?

Even with a 14 might Steel Sword, Mia with max Strength (23) and an attack affinity only beats base Ranulf by 4 attack.

Put into context, that’s a lot. 8 damage per double, possibly a lot more when considering crits and whatnot. Then, since Ranulf is pretty borderline on his one rounds, whatever atk lead Mia has is magnified in importance just as is a small AS lead between 2 units who struggle at doubling.

Also: Ranulf has 43 attack with S Strike at Level 30. Mia with an 18 might Silver Sword at 20/20/1 has like 45 attack. Mia needs forges to win attack.

There’s nothing wrong with the forge other than its expense. A max mt silver sword is 4500 g, 2880 for a +4 mt one (she’s still winning +1 atk). That seems reasonable to me.

Mia has +27 Avoid over Soren, which increases to like 30 discounting supports, and then Mia's got Speed capped and ties Luck growth, so the gap steadily closes, especially since Soren has a cool affinity (basically Fire but gives Avoid instead of Hit) and is a slightly lower level. Also, Soren has a Bond support to increase Ike's already nice Crit (28 Skill + 10 from Ettard + 3 other Bonds) and can take the early Crown to healbot if you really want.

27 avo is a colossal lead with the way hit rates work in FE6-10. To re-quote myself from another topic:

However, 34 avo is a ridiculous lead. If Ross faces 50% real hit, Marisa faces 5% real. Yes, her odds of getting hit are 10x less likely than Ross in those situations. Even if Ross faces 80% real, she’s facing 25% real, so she’s still 3x less likely to be hit.

Ranulf at Level 30 with Rend and Adept would have about 32 Speed, giving him a 32% activation for both, giving him a 79% chance, 54% without Adept. Obviously this is slightly worse than Mia and he cannot greatly increase it with the Killing Edge, but then again if Mia uses the KE she loses Attack (since she needs a Silver Blade/Tempest Blade/forged Silver to win attack). Ranulf also has the advantage of getting a larger increase from a single stat boost since +Speed gives him +2% Adept and +2% Rend, whereas Mia needs Skill and Speed due to Crit/Astra and Adept. Mia also suffers from the fact that her weapons are in limited supply and Astra cannot crit or proc other skills, so she wastes up to 5 weapon uses if Astra activates (obviously, she shouldn't be 5HKOing as a Trueblade unless she first hit-Astras a General with a KE or something). Adept also wastes an extra weapon uses an activates at range, which really hurts her Tempest Blade usage since they're super rare.

This seems like major nitpicking. They have similar att, but Mia has better proc% activation, more weapon versatility (particularly 1-2 range with tempest/alondite) and constant player phase whereas Ranulf wins move and durability. Hmm, maybe I should get back to this at the end :P

4-4 also has like half the map being 2 ranged assholes while like half of the other half are Generals, and then you've got Heather or some nub with a Chest Key running around trying to grab the treasure. And then the BEXP limit is liek 10 turns and you've got that douche with the Sleep Staff that keeps Sleeping Ike while you rage because Ike's been on steroids and you can't Shove him to speed up the Sleep because he's so heavy so you've gotta have your healer Restore Ike and then get vigor'd and heal whatever nub got swarmed last turn. Then you've got like 5 Bishops with Physics and every turn there's like 4 reinforcements half of which are also 2 ranged because that's just how 4-4 rolls. The only thing this is missing is about 20 Druids with Rewarp.

Whoa, where the hell did that come from? It was like you were comparing 4-4 to a Thracia map, and I don’t see the relevance to the match-up in question. I will note, however, that it is possible to send the laguz gem acquired in 4-3 to the convoy with some clever planning so Ranulf could have perma-transformation here.

I'm just saying that Mia being pwn in Part 4 doesn't matter quite as much because there's still like 20-30 units better than her. Sure, she's a bit better on offense than Ranulf, but Ranulf was better than her when we only had like 30 units and half of them were garbage like Lyre or Rolf. That's why dudes like Volug are higher than dudes like Nolan.

I still think that at the very least, Ranulf and Mia should switch. I just think that Ranulf roflstomps Mia too much when he exists in Part 3 and winning durability all game and being very close in melee offense in Part 4 (considering that 4-5 doesn't have ranged enemies other than the Dragons and Ranulf must go with Tibarn) to warrant Mia being above him.

Seems agreeable to me. Personally, I think every laguz character in the game is underrated to some extent, though of course I tried to challenge you in as many points as possible to keep away any personal bias I have in favor of furries.

[Lord Raven]

I distinctly recall being able to remove skills in 3-P/3-1, I even did it in my speedrun. Did that change on HM? Been a while since I’ve played it.

Nope.

I had shitloads of fun with Adept Shinon, especially after getting a Crossbow.

Edited February 25, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[CT075]

What is this, a public debate?

[_____]

What is this, a public debate?

Uh, yeah.

That's kind of the point.

[CT075]

I was joking.

[Lord Raven]

What a terrible joke...

Well, I'm pretty sure you only ever post to spam for post count.

Red Fox -- is there any word on there being a chapter-by-chapter tier list?

[Florete]

What a terrible joke...

Well, I'm pretty sure you only ever post to spam for post count.

Red Fox -- is there any word on there being a chapter-by-chapter tier list?

I can start one if you'd like me to. I've been thinking about it, but haven't gotten to it.

EDIT: I'm working on it now.

Edited February 28, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[CT075]

No, I don't only post to spam so I can have post count. I spam when I have nothing better to do. And I know that it's a horrible joke.

Also, I just noticed that Geoffrey is higher than Kieran. Why is that?

Kieran has more room to grow than Geoffrey, and has stats that are only slightly worse than the blue haired knight. He also has axes, the best weapon type in the game. And Kieran doesn't have lol availability. Kieran has a higher STR growth, too.

See:

Kieran

Lv. 11 Axe Paladin

HP: 41

STR: 21

MAG: 6

SKL: 20

SPD: 20

LCK: 16

DEF: 18

RES: 11

Geoffrey

Lv. 15 Lance Paladin

HP: 37

STR: 24

MAG: 8

SKL: 23

SPD: 20

LCK: 19

DEF: 18

RES: 15

As you can see, Kieran is only losing by about three points in certain stats. And Kieran is winning in HP. Now, see this:

Geoffrey Lv. 15

Brave Lance: Atk 34, AS 20, hit 150, avo 59, crt 11.5

Stl Grtlance: Atk 38, AS 20, hit 135, avo 59, crt 11.5

Killer Lance: Atk 33, AS 20, hit 145, avo 59, crt 41.5

Kieran Lv. 11

Stl Poleaxe: Atk 37, AS 20, hit 116, avo 56, crt 10

Silver Axe: Atk 36, AS 20, hit 126, avo 56, crt 10

Killer Axe: Atk 32, AS 20, hit 131, avo 56, crt 40

As you can see, Kieran is only losing by a little bit in stroke by stroke offense. They have equal AS, so when Geoffrey doubles, so does Kieran. So Kieran is doing better in offense with his higher mt weapons. Geoffrey wins when he uses the Brave Lance and the Stl Grtlance, but there's also more competition for them. These are also the "best" weapons for them, so Kieran wins. Kieran is losing in durability, if only because Geof's avoid and RES advantages outweigh Kieran's HP bonus.

When they return, let's say they both gained a level in Part 2. Because I don't want to waste time comparing stats while holding individual weapons, I'll just do this:

Red

Lv. 12 Axe Pally

HP: 41.75

STR: 21.6

MAG: 6.15

SKL: 20.4

SPD: 20.3

LCK: 16.3

DEF: 18.6

RES: 11.25

Blue

Lv. 15 Lance Pally

HP: 37.6

STR: 24.5

MAG: 8.1

SKL: 23.6

SPD: 20.35

LCK: 19.3

DEF: 18.3

RES: 15.55

As you can see, Geof is retaining his very minor lead, but Kieran is beginning to catch up. At the end of the chapter, they should have both gained two levels. (Assuming Paragon on both and no abuse) When Geof returns, Kieran is destroying Geof in stats, as well as being able to choose between two groups. Geoffrey is locked to Tibarn's group, therefore reducing his chance of usage, since others want to train as well. (isn't that the reason you dumped them there in the first place?)

Kieran, however can be in either the Greil Army or the Hawk Army, and both offer ample EXP opportunities. (Silver Army is excluded due to desert) In 4-4, if you have a unit slot open, Kieran can be of use on top of a ledge (Although, admittedly, he isn't really much help until units start clogging up the stairway and Kieran can actually reach them) to help defeat the enemy reinforcements. In 4-5... Do I need to explain this?

[_____]

Geoffrey is locked to Tibarn's group, therefore reducing his chance of usage, since others want to train as well. (isn't that the reason you dumped them there in the first place?)

Yeah, the swamp.

Being locked to Tibarn's group is NOT a bad thing.

[Lord Raven]

So Kieran is doing better in offense with his higher mt weapons.

No, Geof's clearly doing better according to your own numbers. High might weapons are irrelevant when you've got a 3 point lead in strength to nullify that.

Geoffrey wins when he uses the Brave Lance and the Stl Grtlance, but there's also more competition for them.

From who? Marcia and Danved?

Marcia doesn't do nearly as much damage as Geof with Brave Lance (about 16 damage less), and she gets weighed down by the Greatlance.

Danved does 14 less damage than Geoffrey with the Brave Lance.

Geoffrey's optimizing it. Marcia or Danved can use the Horseslayer I suppose, or Geoffrey can use that over Kieran (an advantage is an advantage) to even further his own lead in C2-3 considering the amount of mounted units.

stats

There's somewhat little difference between both units' original stats here. There's also a 73% chance that the difference between their strength stats is exactly the same as it was prior. Kieran's durability is starting to grow over Geof's (+4 HP still, like a bit over a half a chance of having +1 Def but losing in Resistance by like 5 points), though.

When Geof returns, Kieran is destroying Geof in stats, as well as being able to choose between two groups.

Kieran is magically gaining like 7-8 levels + promotion in the span of four chapters? You have to explain this to me. Then you have to explain how this is "destroying" Geof.

Geoffrey is locked to Tibarn's group, therefore reducing his chance of usage, since others want to train as well. (isn't that the reason you dumped them there in the first place?)

It doesn't reduce his chance of usage considering he's a forced unit into those chapters. Well, you're forced to put him in your party at least, but not as a combat unit. Even still, not having to compete for a spot in Tibarn's group >> having to compete for it.

In 4-4, if you have a unit slot open, Kieran can be of use on top of a ledge (Although, admittedly, he isn't really much help until units start clogging up the stairway and Kieran can actually reach them)

It sucks that his movement lead over other units is taken off here... and let's not add the fact that he still reaches the ledges later. Edited February 28, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[CT075]

Kieran is magically gaining like 7-8 levels + promotion in the span of four chapters? You have to explain this to me. Then you have to explain how this is "destroying" Geof.

Ok, maybe "destroying" was the wrong word for this... 3-4 levels is more like it.

[Lord Raven]

Explain the entire reason why he's ahead of Geof, then.

[CT075]

Assuming that you're using both of them, Kieran has more playtime than Geof.

[Florete]

Assuming that you're using both of them, Kieran has more playtime than Geof.

Availability in itself isn't an auto-win. If it was, Ilyana would be the best character in the game. Fact is, Geoffrey is better for their first 3 chapters together (2-3, 2-E, and 3-9). Then Kieran kind of sucks for the 3 maps where Geoffrey isn't around because his accuracy sucks and I think some enemies can even double him. Then Geoffrey is more likely to use Paragon because he can stack Blossom with it, giving him a pretty good statistical advantage by endgame. And Wishblade > Urvan.

[Lord Raven]

Paragon is a null point, though, considering I myself would rather give it to someone other than Geoffrey after 3-9 and/or give it to Callil during 3-9.

Urvan is around for longer than Wishblade. In fact, that's a point in Kieran's favor if anything, because Kieran can use the Urvan for two chapters (if he gets it) whereas Geoffrey has to wait until 4E3 to use the Wishblade.

I agree Geof > Kieran though.

Assuming that you're using both of them, Kieran has more playtime than Geof.

Elaborate, for God's sake. I'm not asking too much, here, am I? Edited February 28, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[Florete]

Paragon is a null point, though, considering I myself would rather give it to someone other than Geoffrey after 3-9 and/or give it to Callil during 3-9.

This is true, but my point was that Geoffrey is more likely to use even if not guaranteed, and stacking it with Blossom is definitely an advantage in his favor.

Urvan is around for longer than Wishblade. In fact, that's a point in Kieran's favor if anything, because Kieran can use the Urvan for two chapters (if he gets it) whereas Geoffrey has to wait until 4E3 to use the Wishblade.

Good point, but the Wishblade can be used on 4-E-2 (Long-range magic --> trade).

[Paperblade]

I actually totally forgot about this topic for a few days. >_>

Anyway, conceded Mia thing. I forgot you could transfer skills because I've only made a full playthrough once in the past 3-4 months (and it was on lolNM so I was using joke units Nealuchi) and the only thing I remembered was inability to reposition units.

I would bitch about Leanne's position moar but I need to argue a male down or else I'm going to look like a misogynist or something.

I would argue Mordecai > Skrimir but with a lack of Part 4 enemy stats I can't say "Skrimir doesn't double anything anyway".

So anyway.

I think that Mordecai should be liek a tier higher. For reference, Neph, who is a full tier above Mordy. I don't necessarily think Mordecai should go above Neph because his poor Speed prevents him from lolstomping 4-E, but I think he should be at like the top of Upper Mid or something.

Neph has like 4 chapters of availability over Mordecai (2-1, 3-2, 3-3, 3-5) and is pretty bad in all of them. If you're getting max BEXP in 2-1, Neph's crowning achievement is recruiting Heather because Brom is too busy killing everything between him and the boss (and by "everything" I mean the Soldier, the Archer, and the Lance Armor). In 2-2, Mordecai has liek 10 more attack than Neph, actually has 1 more AS (Neph is still at base level unless you drew 2-1 past the BEXP limit or killed the Volunteers) because she only has 17 with the Steel Greatlance, and then ties her Defense while untransformed and wins HP by liek 25. There's only about 2 magic users in the entire map, and they 3HKO both of them anyway, only Neph can't take 2 hits from them and still be lolling because now anything else can kill her while Mordecai has 32 Defense and takes no damage.

Then in 3-2, Neph is liek Level 4 maybe, so she doubles Paladins/Sages/Generals/Dragonmasters with a Steel Lance, so that's something like 26 attack vs. their 36-38HP and 16-19 Defense, so that's a borderline 2RKO. She actually fails at one rounding Sages unless she gets a forge or upgrades to Iron Greatlance. She 3 rounds SMs, which is pretty fail because that means I need to have like 37 attack for her to finish them off (read: Titania/Haar/Ike). She does like 5 damage to Generals and 7 to Dragonmasters, so she's 4 rounding Generals and 3 rounding Dragonmasters, and that was with an attack support (Brom or Heather) and an Iron Greatlance.

Being lenient and giving her 2 levels in 3-2, that moves her up to 20/6 in 3-3, where she now has 17 Str and 23 Spd.

She can still only double Sages/Generals, but now she's borderline with the Steel Greatlance and has 31 attack with it (32 with Heather support).

However, even with the Steel Greatlance vs. Generals she's 3 rounding at best, which is pretty bad because some of them 2 round her back (with ~40-50 displayed hit)

This means that she finally one rounds Sages, but she still 3 rounds Snipers/Halbs and is borderline vs. Swordmasters (15-16 Defense, if they have 16 she fails to 2HKO). And the Steel Sword ones 4HKO with ~65 displayed hit and 7 crit. The Steel Blade ones 3HKO but they have ~45 displayed hit, although this is worth noting because Neph actually runs the risk of being OHKO'd.

Snipers are even worse because they have the best of both types of SM, about 65 displayed Hit, 7% Crit, and a 3HKO even if she's on a thicket.

Halbs have ~50 displayed Hit on her and 3HKO (with 0-1% Crit). Neph also barely 3 rounds Halbs, if she loses the attack support she fails to 3 round 19 Defense Halbs. Similarly, if they stand on Thickets, she fails to 3 round. However, if she levels up to 7 partway through the chapter she can double Halbs with the Iron Greatlance, giving her a guaranteed 3 round.

So 20/8 Neph for 3-4, where Mordecai and enemy Warriors decide to show up.

Neph has 17.5 Str/Def and 24.6 Spd, but I'll give you 18 and 25 because of supports and to prove a point.

So 32 attack on Neph.

Warriors with Crossbows 4HKO Neph with ~70 displayed Hit. Mordecai takes no damage. UNTRANSFORMED Mordecai is 5HKO'd and doubled, so he's 3 rounded.

Warriors with Axes 3HKO her (after the second hit she has like 2-3HP) at 45% hit. They do 2-3 damage to Mordecai, so that's like a 19HKO on the stronger ones. Untransformed Mordecai is 3HKO'd and doubled, so 2 rounds.

Neph 2 rounds with the Steel Greatlance, as does transformed Mordecai.

Steel Lance Halbs 3HKO Neph with ~50 displayed Hit. They tink Mordecai, or 4HKO and double for a 2RKO untransformed. Steel Greatlance Halbs 3HKO untransformed Mordecai and 28HKO transformed Mordecai.

Mordecai 3HKOs Halbs (leaves them with 2-3HP, so if you give him an Energy Drop he kills). Neph 2RKOs.

Swordmasters 4HKO Neph with ~60 displayed Hit. They tink Mordecai, or 6HKO and double for a 3RKO untransformed.

Mordecai 2HKOs. Neph cannot double and thus 3HKOs.

Fire Sages 2HKO Mordecai and 4HKO Neph at 45 displayed hit. However, they get no bonus vs. Untransformed Mordecai and thus 3HKO and double for a 2RKO

Neph one rounds, Mordecai 2 rounds.

Thunder Sages borderline 4-5RKO Neph at 35 displayed hit and 4RKO Mordecai. 2RKO untransformed.

Neph one rounds, Mordecai 2 rounds.

Snipers 3HKO Neph with 55 displayed Hit. They tink Mordecai, or 5HKO and double for a 2RKO untransformed.

Neph 2 rounds, as does Mordy.

Steel Poleaxe Generals 2HKO Neph at 30 displayed hit. Mordecai is 12HKO'd transformed, or 2RKO'd not.

Short Spear Generals 3HKO Neph at 25 displayed hit. Mordecai is tink'd and 2RKO'd.

Neph 3RKOs, as does Mordecai.

Mordecai has such an absolutely massive durability lead vs. physical enemies to the point where the amount of attacks it would take to untransform Mordecai would have likely already killed Neph 2 times over. Neph CAN switch to the Javelin, but she loses 14 damage a round which really gimps her attack vs. pretty much everything, since it puts a lot of enemies out of the range where I could just have another unit walk up and finish them, which is probably hurting my offense overall, especially since enemies with 1-2 range will likely now ignore Neph and go after someone who doesn't have 1-2 ranged, like Ike.

You might follow up with "But Mordecai is a Laguz and levels like shit". However, Mordecai is a hilariously underlevel'd Laguz (base level of 16) so he gains EXP like a Level 32 unit, which is going to be faster than dudes like Haar/Shinon/Ike/etc. at this point. This is pretty nice because Mordecai has a 45% Defense growth.

I would go on but there's no enemy stats past 3-9. However, by late Part 3, Mordecai might have S Strike (lack of doubling compared to Hawks made up for by Part 2 awesomeness and 3-4). He should also be at or near the point where he has a ton of Defense and never dies.

Speaking of Mordecai's massive HP and Defense, this also makes him a prime candidate for skills liek Wrath and Resolve. Since Mordecai can go down to half HP, Transform, and then be invincible to non-magic users, this makes Mordecai a 9-move killing machine that lacks Formshift. Considering that there are chapters with liek no Magic users (4-P, 4-3, 4-5) and some with a few in their own little area (4-1, 4-2, 4-E-1, 4-E-2), this is good for Mordecai.

Mordecai also has 2 more Move and superior mobility in bad terrain, which is pretty awesome since it lets him reach enemies in chapters like 3-4 and 4-P and 4-2 and 4-3 before most other people, and Water affinity pwns pretty hard. More Defense is always nice, especially for the GMs because a lot of them are a pain to kill already so stacking moar Defense increases their durability by a ton.

Mordecai also has innate Smite, which is pretty neat because sometimes there's turns untransformed when you're sitting there doing nothing because you can transform next turn regardless of grass and you don't wanna waste the stone for whatever reason. So Mordecai can be like "Hey nub Utility Unit with Terrible Durability (read: all of them) and your terrible durability let me Smite you out of range after healing that because even untransformed I take hits like a pro". Mordecai is buff as hell so he can Smite pretty much anyone that's not on a horse and even then he can Smite some of them when he's transformed. This also makes it easier to set up multi-person Vigors in situations where having someone else attack or block a chokepoint would be better than having Mordecai attack. Mordecai also only needs to fill up liek 3 inventory slots (Fang, Grass, Stone), maybe 4 if you want a Concoction or Pure Water in case those Mages are starting shit, which is a a bit better than liek forge/slayer weapon/1-2 range/steel/silver/brave/killer/vulnerary/etc. that can be on other people, so he's pretty useful just to cart stuff around if you want (like Chest Keys for 4-4 or an extra weapon for other people in case theirs break or to take extra stuff so that Sothe/Heather can steal moar). That also brings up the point that Mordecai is dirt cheap. You pretty much never have to buy grass simply because you get so much from the Laguz that are joining you, so he's going to cost very little. This means that you can buy better forges for your beorcs (maybe 2-3 extra attack, 5-10 extra hit for RNG proof, maybe some crit for your Halbs or SMs) or more stuff from the bargains (especially in Part 3 where you might have money issues). Additionally, since Mordecai isn't using up Forges, this also means that your beorcs get more forges with Coins and can feel free to use their forges more often.

[Lord Raven]

I recall Skrimir being able to double in 4P, and you have like three resolves and he comes with one to even further his potential (granted, he takes like 4-5 damage per hit when transformed). His laguz gauge also doesn't go down nearly as fast as Mordecai's let alone other Laguz, you probably will only need one Olivi Grass once every 4 or 5 turns.

Good point, but the Wishblade can be used on 4-E-2 (Long-range magic --> trade).

Good luck, Levail has Resolve. Edited February 28, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[Florete]

Good luck, Levail has Resolve.

Nihil (Calill works especially well for this, and otherwise I still have not ever had problems with this method).

As for Mordecai's argument, I have considered moving him up in the past, but I haven't had a chance to seriously use him yet. Still, I'll move him to Upper Mid for now. 32 defense base at his level is also pretty amazing.

Edited February 28, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[Florete]

In Normal mode he isn't "terrible" by any means... he doesn't get doubled and can evade swordmasters (in the forest) who have like 45% displayed hit on him. Everything else will be even lower. And his hit back is 60-70%, which isn't too bad by any means. Not entirely reliable, but not bad.

In Hard Swordmasters are the only things doubling him, but he can do ~15-20 damage considering he has at least 30 base attack of his own, which isn't bad. It's nice chip damage, about 33%. And there's also Thunder magic for the Wyverns that exist in that chapter, even if they are few and far between; hell Thunder magic for the Dragons too who take little damage from chars not named Tibarn otherwise. He doesn't OHKO, but the damage he does is plenty. Compare it to like Ilyana, Tormod... etc. Everyone not named Callil or Soren (well, debatably Soren) and you've definitely got a winner. He can probably make use of a Master Crown right away (if not then give or take a couple levels) and pretty much beat out/become equal to Bastian.

He isn't too bad, really.

I've taken this here from the Dark Mages thread in the Shadow Dragon board because it would be off-topic otherwise. It is in regards to Pelleas.

First off, yeah there's a lot of terrain, but considering almost anyone you can have here (earth supporters, third tier units, etc.) is dodging and taking hits much more reliably, 45% when in terrain is nowhere near reliable, especially when he's being two-rounded by any physical attacker. 60-70% hit is pretty awful when, once again, no one should have problems in that area except him. He's low in level as it is, so missing his opponent isn't helping him at all. Neither is the fact that he isn't at the base, so you can't even equip a skill like Paragon on him.

Tormod and Soren aren't even on 4-5, so I don't know why you'd mention them. Besides that, any Sage (Ilyana, Calill, Bastian is all that's left) is better than him there because they can also do bonus damage to the Tigers, Cats, Hawks, and Ravens of the map, in addition to the Dragons. Then we have Marksmen/Reavers, Beastfoe, Dragonfoe, and Birdfoe, Wyrmslayers and possibly a Beastkiller for Volke and Pelleas's bonus damage really isn't very special. Plus they (Sages) almost definitely will be able to heal because Pelleas isn't so likely to have received 9 levels in a single map without some good favoritism. Yeah, you might be able to spare a Master Crown for him if you still have one, but that ultimately kills any longterm use he may have had, meaning you have a slightly-better-than-bad unit for two chapters and a pretty awful unit for endgame.

In comparison to the rest of the team, he's pretty bad.

[Lord Raven]

You can use the Master Crown immediately as he comes in for the Staffs. That instantly makes him better than most fighters, even if you can dispute the usefulness.

The fact that you can use the Wyrmslayers and shit for those enemies is irrelevant; the fact of the matter is that he can still do it from base level, and I do believe that something like Elthunder is cheaper than a Wyrmslayer, and less fought over for than Beastfoe (which doesn't even affect Dragons btw).

45% when in terrain is nowhere near reliable

Where did I say it was reliable? I said it wasn't bad, I didn't comment on its reliability. The fact is that he can roughly dodge shots in terrain, which there is a bunch of in this very chapter.

especially when he's being two-rounded by any physical attacker.

And so? Warriors are bound to have something like 30-40% hit on him, so they don't hit him very often either.

60-70% hit is pretty awful when, once again, no one should have problems in that area except him.

It translates to close to around 70-80% real, which is still pretty decent. Once again, I didn't even say it was reliable; I said it was decent.

Also, coming into Tibarn's maps without requiring a slot = win, especially since he's forced on you in 4-2.

He's low in level as it is

Low in level hurts his case, but only slightly considering he comes at least L10 anyway so he can use a Master Crown. Edited March 4, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[Florete]

You can use the Master Crown immediately as he comes in for the Staffs. That instantly makes him better than most fighters, even if you can dispute the usefulness.

That's still only if you've saved one for him (there are only 6) and it hurts his longterm use by quite a lot since his growths are decent but nothing stellar. You'd basically be using a Master Crown to make someone go from bad to okay, and likely only for two maps.

The fact that you can use the Wyrmslayers and shit for those enemies is irrelevant;

Not entirely. If we had only one other thing available for bonus damage (just a Wyrmslayer, just Beastfoe, etc.) it would be irrelevant, but since there are all these possible options, you can possibly have everyone on your team dealing bonus damage in some way via Wyrmslayer, Beastkiller, (Cross)Bows, Beastfoe, Birdfoe, and Dragonfoe. I'm not saying it isn't a point in his favor, it just isn't a big one, especially since he only does it to Dragons, who likely pwn him if he doesn't kill them in one shot.

Where did I say it was reliable? I said it wasn't bad, I didn't comment on its reliability. The fact is that he can roughly dodge shots in terrain, which there is a bunch of in this very chapter.

And so? Warriors are bound to have something like 30-40% hit on him, so they don't hit him very often either.

That still makes him pretty bad durably. Any third tier unit or earth supporter can easily take on more enemies than he can.

It translates to close to around 70-80% real, which is still pretty decent. Once again, I didn't even say it was reliable; I said it was decent.

Also, coming into Tibarn's maps without requiring a slot = win, especially since he's forced on you in 4-2.

HIs hit chance is still fairly low compared to most others, and it also means he's gonna be screwed if he's on the wrong end of biorythm, more so than others.

Coming into Tibarn's maps is pretty nice. Not much else to say about that.

[Lord Raven]

That's still only if you've saved one for him (there are only 6) and it hurts his longterm use by quite a lot since his growths are decent but nothing stellar. You'd basically be using a Master Crown to make someone go from bad to okay, and likely only for two maps.

There are only six, but look at the facts. You can only afford to use about five of the Greil Mercenaries + guys that arrive with the Mercenaries without EXP being spread too wide.

Think a bit further, as well. You're using very few from the Dawn Brigade itself due to lack of EXP.

And finally, Mist's promotion with the Holy Crown, not Master Crown.

I don't think it's particularly likely either (it's still somewhat likely), but I'm not arguing him to be damn awesome either; just merely average.

Not entirely. If we had only one other thing available for bonus damage (just a Wyrmslayer, just Beastfoe, etc.) it would be irrelevant, but since there are all these possible options, you can possibly have everyone on your team dealing bonus damage in some way via Wyrmslayer, Beastkiller, (Cross)Bows, Beastfoe, Birdfoe, and Dragonfoe. I'm not saying it isn't a point in his favor, it just isn't a big one, especially since he only does it to Dragons, who likely pwn him if he doesn't kill them in one shot.

This doesn't take much away from the versatility of an Elthunder tome, considering how he's only competing with Wyrmslayers and Dragonfoe, in which case you probably don't have THAT many Wyrmslayers left (or that many in general) and Dragonfoe is quite situational (only like five dragons in C4-5). Dragonfoe also applies to Endgame-3, but then again Pelleas isn't competing for Wyrmslayers or Dragonfoes to do his job; he's only competing for the money to use Elthunder. And you can easily afford it, too, unless you splurge all your money on excess items.

That still makes him pretty bad durably.

It makes him average at best.

Any third tier unit or earth supporter can easily take on more enemies than he can.

Wow and which ones is he beating? None! Which ones did I say he was beating? None!

HIs hit chance is still fairly low compared to most others

Cool story, his hit rate is still decent.

and it also means he's gonna be screwed if he's on the wrong end of biorythm, more so than others.

Cool story, I thought we'd assume neutral biorhythm for most things? Everyone can get pretty fucked by Biorhythm at any rate, so this isn't just a disadvantage for him. Some less than others, but I'm sure Pelleas doesn't have it the worst.

[Florete]

There are only six, but look at the facts. You can only afford to use about five of the Greil Mercenaries + guys that arrive with the Mercenaries without EXP being spread too wide.

Five? I recall using Ike, Mist, Boyd, Titania, Soren, Shinon, Gatrie, Mia, Nephenee, Haar, Calill and Tanith with people like Ranulf on the side. I didn't have many level issues (All were promoted near or at the start of part 4, Soren and Calill from lv 18). I think you're overrating the experience cut.

Think a bit further, as well. You're using very few from the Dawn Brigade itself due to lack of EXP.

This is true. Nolan, Zihark, Jill, and Volug are the only ones really worth pursuing (Other than Micaiah and Sothe, but they have forced promotions), possibly Edward if one took the effort to raise him.

Wow and which ones is he beating? None! Which ones did I say he was beating? None!

...Then why are we arguing?

I don't think it's particularly likely either (it's still somewhat likely), but I'm not arguing him to be damn awesome either; just merely average.

Is that why? You think he's average and I think he's bad? (Serious question here)

Cool story, his hit rate is still decent.

I'm surprised you haven't mentioned forging.

Cool story, I thought we'd assume neutral biorhythm for most things? Everyone can get pretty fucked by Biorhythm at any rate, so this isn't just a disadvantage for him. Some less than others, but I'm sure Pelleas doesn't have it the worst

It depends on how much it affects them. Bad biorythm can usually screw anyone over and good biorythm can usually make anyone good, which is why neutral is usually assumed. But at this point in the game, your trained + royal units are pwn enough that they likely aren't as badly affected by low biorythm, while someone like Pelleas is being utterly screwed over by it (I'm pretty sure his hit rate can drop <50% on NM).