OMG it's a tier list

[Colonel M]

@Narga: Beastfoe in 4-5 is better suited to someone who can actually apply it for more than 5-10 attacks. For instance, a third tier Tauroneo with a silver poleax would have 70 effective Mt, enough to OHKO cats and ravens while ORKOing everything else.

He means DragonFoe, which I can say Pelleas having it is an okay idea. Not like something such as ArcThunder is nearly overkill once promoted.

[Vykan12]

This is related to Pelleas vs Oliver, right?

It's a good idea to bring Oliver to 4-E since he probably has the highest mag of any unit on the team (31 base), and only needs 1 arms scroll to use fortify. That seems more useful to me than Fenrir bombing in 4-2 and 4-5.

[Colonel M]

This is related to Pelleas vs Oliver, right?

It's a good idea to bring Oliver to 4-E since he probably has the highest mag of any unit on the team (31 base), and only needs 1 arms scroll to use fortify. That seems more useful to me than Fenrir bombing in 4-2 and 4-5.

He can promote and have auto-B in Staves too. Early crowning or just finishing him off in 4-5. Arms Scroll isn't even that big of an issue: Pelleas could've done it too.

[Florete]

I was on vacation, I come back to moar Zihark/Mia.

Since Red Fox seems to be busy with other matters right now, it might be a good idea for someone to repost the tiier thread so if a convincing argument is made the tier list can actually be changed. I'll do it, or someone else (not smash) can.

Don't worry, I'm still around to make changes if necessary.

It's a good idea to bring Oliver to 4-E since he probably has the highest mag of any unit on the team (31 base), and only needs 1 arms scroll to use fortify. That seems more useful to me than Fenrir bombing in 4-2 and 4-5.

I hope you mean "better to bring Oliver over Pelleas" and not actually "good idea to birng Oliver" because bringing Olver definitely isn't a good idea. He gets doubles by any physical enemy, one rounded if it's strong enough, and you don't need high magic to heal a lot (Recover, Mend, etc.) so any other possible healer is better since others can do stuff other than heal, like live or fight. Elincia is probably the next best staff candidate.

[Narga_Rocks]

My issue with Oliver is that Micaiah has 32 magic at promotion and the same ability to armscroll for S staves. Since everyone else seems to think that she is a healbot at this point then she might as well fortify by herself. Laura doesn't even need an armscroll and will have comparable magic to his 31.

At least Pelleas does something better in his chapter than anyone not named Shinon (3 range) or Zihark(probably gets 0% vs dragons). They might or might not go with Tibarn, can't kill the dragons from far away to protect your other people anyway and Pelleas can do this without resources. If we care about money lost from Pelleas burning Fenrir, we can sell those 2 for 1500 total which is less than the 4000 we get for an arms scroll. But at this point we likely don't care about that money so that is likely a push. The point is that Pelleas is doing something other people can't with something that other people don't really need. Dragonfoe is nice to have in 4-5 but dragons are the lowest leveled of the enemies and there is a small number of them. Most people are better served by adept or something so that they can actually be better against all the other enemies.

Since I am making a big deal of Pelleas doing this at base level and not hurting our endgame team by stealing experience, I am quite obviously encouraging the not bringing of Pelleas to endgame. Does Oliver get to be higher than Pelleas simply because bringing Pelleas to endgame is an even worse idea than bringing Oliver already is?

[Vykan12]

I hope you mean "better to bring Oliver over Pelleas" and not actually "good idea to birng Oliver" because bringing Olver definitely isn't a good idea. He gets doubles by any physical enemy, one rounded if it's strong enough, and you don't need high magic to heal a lot (Recover, Mend, etc.) so any other possible healer is better since others can do stuff other than heal, like live or fight. Elincia is probably the next best staff candidate.

No I’m dead serious. If you didn’t raise Rhys/Mist/Laura (very likely due to none of them being that good and having trouble levelling up), then Oliver is basically your best raw healer in 4-E.

Yes, he cannot take a hit, but he doesn’t need to since he has 15 range with physics, 16 with a level-up or two. For perspective, a sniper has 9 range, so Oliver could be a safe distance from that enemy while still healing a unit 5-6 spaces ahead of that sniper. Physics also bypass terrain obstacles, which makes it even easier for Oliver to avoid enemies while doing his job.

And no, the extra healing Oliver provides isn’t superfluous. A --/--/11 Elincia has 21 mag to base level Oliver’s 31. This means that when both fortify, Oliver’s giving 41 hp to every unit within a 15 space radius while Elincia’s giving 31 within a 10 space radius. That’s a huge difference if we’re healing various units from dragon hits, or from an Ashera AOE.

[CT075]

My issue with Oliver is that Micaiah has 32 magic at promotion and the same ability to armscroll for S staves. Since everyone else seems to think that she is a healbot at this point then she might as well fortify by herself. Laura doesn't even need an armscroll and will have comparable magic to his 31.

Why are you assuming that Micaiah is going to be at level 13+ at promotion? Micaiah only has 5 maps until Endgame (One of which she's locked to a ledge where she can't do anything more than Purge things and heal), and I can't imagine her gaining more than 4 levels in those maps. It's safe to say that Micaiah's somewhere around level 7 by promo, maybe not even that much. Laura I can give you, but Laura coming to endgame is lulzy.

At least Pelleas does something better in his chapter than anyone not named Shinon (3 range) or Zihark(probably gets 0% vs dragons). They might or might not go with Tibarn, can't kill the dragons from far away to protect your other people anyway and Pelleas can do this without resources. If we care about money lost from Pelleas burning Fenrir, we can sell those 2 for 1500 total which is less than the 4000 we get for an arms scroll. But at this point we likely don't care about that money so that is likely a push. The point is that Pelleas is doing something other people can't with something that other people don't really need. Dragonfoe is nice to have in 4-5 but dragons are the lowest leveled of the enemies and there is a small number of them. Most people are better served by adept or something so that they can actually be better against all the other enemies.

Are you trying to imply that Fenrir bombing w/ Dragonfoe to gain exp for a unit that isn't coming to endgame is more effective than Meteor/Blizzard/Purge bombing with Dragonfoe? Heck, you could possibly (Emphasis on that word) have a Bolting by now for uber hax vs. Dragons.

Since I am making a big deal of Pelleas doing this at base level and not hurting our endgame team by stealing experience, I am quite obviously encouraging the not bringing of Pelleas to endgame. Does Oliver get to be higher than Pelleas simply because bringing Pelleas to endgame is an even worse idea than bringing Oliver already is?

Oliver at least has (nearly) auto-Fortify, possibly the highest magic on the team (Micaiah for reasona already explained, lolArchSage, Rhys has problems later on, Laura is way too underleveled, Mist and Elincia I'll give you), and possible Nosferatu and Valaura for some increased offense and durability (In Nosferatu's case). He also has reasons that Vykan explained already.

Edited June 24, 2009 by Gordaran

[Interceptor]

There's no double standard here. The only time I bring up stuff like stat distribution is if one unit has a significantly higher chance to do something than the other unit, e.g. Oscar's chances to double 3-5 paladins versus Titania's chances to double those same enemies.

Unfortunately in this situation, the only person who even comes close to doubling cats is Volug (granted, Volug doubles at base level, but that's just part of the reason why he's Top tier), so the fact that Zihark can actually double them at average stats makes him good in that department when compared to the rest of the DB like Jill.

So then, since you claim to "only" bring up stat distribution when comparing two units, the implication is that you don't bring up stat distribution in the case that I mentioned, which would be a unit's chance to do something in a void. I'm not sure that, if I were in your situation, that I'd want to assert that I ignored such things as a matter of personal policy, since it's actually a pretty important point. But, it's your prerogative to be inconsistent.

The reason why it's an important point is that Zihark's ability to double cats goes directly to his usefulness on offense, as it applies to his durability. If he can't double a 22AS cat, his chance to kill cleanly goes down considerably, since it requires a miracle Adept + Crit on a KE or a crit on a forge. Why does this matter? It matters because he's going to get countered by this cat, and the cat remains alive a higher percentage of the time. You now have the sticky situation where Zihark has a cat that he's probably going to kill on Enemy Phase, but he might be injured now, and there might be another laguz waiting to fill the spot that the cat was in. So we have to kill the cat with someone else, or unequip him, etc, or otherwise risk that he might face two attacks in a row with no opportunity to heal in between. I already said this in my last post, but now I am articulating it more precisely so that you're not tempted to dodge the point.

Again: it's not his offense compared to someone else's, it's his offense as it pertains to his durability. As evidence of this, I can safely say that my point about Zihark's AS in this case wouldn't change even if Volug didn't exist, or if everyone in the DB had 26+ AS. Zihark would get better or worse relative to the army, but this specific point would not change.

And it's not ridiculous for him to be 20/7 at all. Note that if he ends a chapter at like 90 EXP, he can cap his level off with BEXP, and spd is his second highest growth at 70 (the third highest is HP at 55).

Really, smash? A "no u" argument?

Zihark needs 400 EXP to get to 20/7 from base level. If he attacks a unit with Paragon, he gets 2 CEXP unless the gap between them is only 6 levels, in which case he gets 4 CEXP (enemies in 1-7 and 1-8 are all level 14-16, which means the level gap is never as small as only 6 in those chapters, it is in fact more like a 7-9+ level gap). When it comes to kills, he'll get like 14-18 CEXP a kill within that same level gap. That value drops when he levels up to 20/4 (obviously). The enemies in 1-E are level 17-19. If we assume that Zihark is 20/5 by now, he is still 6-8 levels over the targets, pulling about 16-22 CEXP a kill. Way back in 1-6, he's getting like 6-8 EXP a kill, or something.

Being very quick and lazy with the math, I'd say he's taking 1 kill out of every 6 or 7, since there are like 120 enemies between 1-7 and 1-E, and he can maybe get half a level or more in 1-6. This doesn't include boss kills, but seems excessive to me. Much of the CEXP is contained in 1-E, and I don't beleive that Zihark has uncontested access to Paragon anymore at that point.

I still laugh at how you're trying to sandbag Zihark's offense so much, yet when it comes to Mia's offense in part 3 and HER chances to one round with crit/adept (and unlike Zihark, Mia's adept is not innate), she's wtfawesome for one rounding with lower chances to do so than Zihark.

The difference between these two situations is that Mia's durability is nowhere near a liability. Her offense is not gated by her defensive prospects to the extent that his is. If she was getting 2HKO'ed at high hit rates by basically everything, maybe it would become an issue. As it stands, though, she's fighting tier 2 beorcs (read: lower HIT than the laguz), with Ike's authority stars, and while there are situations that she gets 2HKO'ed, they quickly go away for the most part and are replaced by her getting 3HKO'ed. Mia's avoid at base level, unsupported, is nearly as much as Zihark's at 20/7 with a B Earth, and she's fighting easier enemies. The two situations are not even comparable. I am more able to use Mia's offensive power in Part 3 than I am Zihark's.

Zihark's innate Adept is almost meaningless. His use of the skill has even greater opportunity cost than hers, since him using it denies Adept to both the DB and the GMs (during Part 3, it's simultaneously). The only advantage it lends him is that he can combine it with another 15-cap like Paragon or Resolve if he doesn't take it off, but such things are in such high demand that I don't see how he can realistically leverage this advantage for anything useful.

Who in the DB wants adept, and who uses it nearly as well as Zihark?

You did not answer my question, so I will ask it again:

What weapon is he using on tigers?

As for your irrelevant question: most of the DB wants Adept. Zihark kills better with it from a strict mechanical perspective, but whether this means that he's using it better than other members is a subject for debate. His doubling + high SPD + need for Adept in order to KO makes him best on paper, but it can also aggravate his defensive issues (in the tiger case it might help, but there are other cases where it could hurt). Also, like I said: opportunity cost. Even if the others aren't as good, what they CAN actually do with it is something that you are leaving on the table by putting Adept on Zihark. Yes, this does apply to Mia as well -- I shouldn't have to say this, since I already did in another post, but you have a pretty selective memory.

The problem is you just ignore everything about offense, and you also seem to think Zihark's the only guy on the team.

This is verifiably false. I am being very thorough about Zihark's specific offensive prospects, and I'm also bringing in other units when it's germane to my point.

See, suppose that we have Zihark + some healer, versus say Nolan + some healer.[...]I fail to see the difference here, considering if you're at the swamp you're likely facing just one enemy, which means getting 2HKO'd is fine.

The difference is that your original example had Zihark diagonally adjacent to a 3HKO'ed unit, which means this second unit now has two enemy facings just so that Zihark is safer. The other difference is what I posted above: if Zihark failed to kill sometihng, got hit, and there's a second laguz in range, you have to stop what you're doing and resolve this situation unless you feel like rolling the dice.

3HKO'ed gives you more flexibility than 2HKO'ed, and more flexibility is better than less. This is not really disputable in broad terms, just in the specifics.

There are a ton of thickets on the right side, to the point where you can actually make a wall with units only in thickets.

If memory serves me correctly, a wall composed of units in thickets is going to have a giant hole that lets enemy units onto the center of the island. You can put two units on the left side, and you still have the block the northeast hole and the two-space hole on the right. The "two unit" right hole doesn't have thickets, you have to push further out for that, and the thickets don't abut a dead tree that you can use, so some units are still left without a defensive tile. You either leave a hole, or you don't put everyone in a thicket. To even use the thickets you need more defenders anyway.

If you remember my Black Knight Solo strategy, I had Zihark, Nolan, Sothe, Jill, and Volug for the standard clear. Those five were just enough to block every approach, but only one thicket was availible.

As for "getting 2HKO'd", you have to stop thinking about "what's it going to take for my guy to die", but rather "how often will I have to heal my unit"? Whenever Zihark (or any unit) avoids a hit, that's a turn your healer doesn't have to spend on him or a turn your attacker doesn't need to spend a vulnerary on. This of course is an obvious advantage.

My 3HKO'ed unit can take a direct hit and still be in the same #HKO situation as the 2HKO'ed Zihark that dodged. That means that in a situation where Nolan took a cat bite (perhaps when countered), but has no serious prospects of facing two consecutive hits on Enemy Phase, I can ignore him for this Turn and not heal.

Your argument about Zihark is fair, but it has limits. I argued above that if I could prevent Zihark from magically critting things, I am OK with him being 2HKO'ed. That's because I can remove the insta-kills from the equation, and better leverage his avoid to cut down on healing, just like you described.

This is only three units, one of them being Volug who stomps everyone in the team.

Volug's performance has nothing to do with it. My point was that these units are all very reliable in terms of magic crits, and Volug is the best of them because his crit is among the lowest. It also wasn't exaustive, it was just an example. Sothe is also included here, because he has no class crit. Same with Jill. Aran has class crit, but I included him anyway because being 3HKO'ed mitigates it greatly.

It's funny, because Zihark's offense with a weak sword is about the same as someone like Nolan vs cats.

This is all very nice, but doesn't solve my problems with Zihark unless I want to nerf his non-crit offense very badly. I don't consider that to be an awesome trade. I laid out my example of a weapon that would do the trick: high-mt that seals crits.

There's the possibility that the untransformed laguz decides to move in front of the other wall, which means now that someone has to waste their player phase to kill that enemy off, and now enemies can start attacking Leo again.

You've apparently never actually done this? The untransformed laguz is not going to move until you kill it. Go try it, don't take my word for it. It will stand there forever. There is a actually a cat that walks up to the right-side choke spot on the left choke that's perfect for this.

Again, you said it's uncommon, so I didn't even bother to argue about it. It would be a minor point.

When I said it was uncommon, I meant that Leo is like the only unit that actually finds himself in this position: everyone else wants to fight at 1-range, or will at least counter 1-range. I did not mean that the situation itself is uncommon. If you are actually using Leo to wall, it happens constantly.

2-rounding tigers and not countering anything on player phase just makes you go through the chapter slower than if you stuck someone in that could actually counter.

Are you asserting that it matters to go slower on this chapter? Careful, smash: Zihark slows you down, too.

By the way, for Leo to 4HKO tigers (and 2-round them), he needs to be at least 20/1 with a support, and YOU didn't even respond to the point of how Leo is actually going to reach that considering how much he sucks dick in part 1.

You didn't mention 20/1 WRT his offense, you mentioned his defense, so there was nothing for me to respond to. If you mentioned it, I would have replied to the point. So let's pretend that you actually asked the question.

My response would be that he's still 55% 2RKO on the tigers due to crit rate, and that's the altnerative scenario if he gets STR-screwed or can't get to 20/1.

Int cries about me ignoring stuff and is too busy to try and shitstomp me (yet he claims he only debates tiers for fun, not for trying to pwn other people) to realize he's ignoring half my posts.

I am not trying to "shitstomp" you, smash. I am defending my position on Zihark, which you are attacking. I think it's pretty sad that you can't see any difference between what you do, and what I do.

This coming from the guy who complained that Zihark might get spd screwed and won't be doubling cats, only Int didn't bother to try and give Zihark any sort of favoritism at all. Just the sort of thing you'd expect from a mindless anti-Zihark fanboy.

What are you suggesting? That I give Zihark a Speedwing? I dismissed it out of hand as too negative with too little benefit for him. Argue it if you want, but I wouldn't recommend it.

You mean he can kill stuff that everyone else can kill? Oh wow!

Doesn't get countered, doesn't have to move.

You mean just waste our time because now we're not getting any job done on EITHER phase?

He's 100% safe, and this is just a strategy that will free up a healer. And even concoctions are just a stop-gap while the laguz is transformed.

You were wording your arguments to make it look like that I didn't think Resolve is favoritism, which is a blatant lie. Do you think I'm so fucking stupid that I thought you were saying Resolve isn't favoritism?

I was doing no such thing. I don't like your attitude and I think your logic is poor, but that doesn't mean I think you're borderline retarded. I certainly don't contest that you understand that giving someone a resource is favoritism, seeing as how it's the crux of your entire Fire Emblem world-view. What I am contesting is your specific weighting of opportunity cost, because I think it's miscalibrated in this situation.

No, I understood it completely.

Truly?

You're bitching and complaining about Zihark's chances of death, yet you pretend he's always starting the enemy phase at half HP. It's more like "he starts at full HP, then an enemy has to hit him to half HP, and then resolve activates, and THEN enemies have to start trying to kill him off."

You're just skipping straight to the end, which is just a ridiculous idea since no one wants to hang around on enemy phase with half HP, not even someone like Volug.

No, it appears that you do not understand. So I will say it a fourth time.

If Zihark does not take hits under half health, he is not using Resolve. If you manage to get Zihark through an entire chapter on nothing but taking hits at full health (aka he either dodges or you heal him immediately), good for Zihark. Unfortunately, you didn't use Resolve. At all. Ever. Waste of a skill, my friend. Mitigate his second-hits at your own peril, because it harms his argument for getting the skill in the first place.

This has nothing to do with Jill's robe and shield being favoritism or not.

If you think, after reading all of this, that I'm suggesting that Jill's Robe and Shield either IS favoritism, or IS NOT favoritism. please so say, so that I can ignore you forever for not paying attention to my core argument. Feel free to move your response right to the top of your reply if the answer is "yes", because it will save me a lot of time. tyia.

I never said that the DB uses it for exactly 4 chapters. I said that you always talk about how being able to use something for X number of chapters is the only thing that matters when it comes to distributing favoritism, so the GMs being able to use it for more chapters than Jill should, by your own logic, have an effect (not like I actually agree with this logic).

I don't say that it's the only thing that matters, I say that it's the baseline. If X has it for 8 chapters and Y has it for three, but Y is using it for three times the effectiveness towards beating the game than X would, clearly there is an easy argument that Y is superior with this item.

Easy example: Beastfoe. GMs would have it for 9, DB has it for four. But the GMs can't do shit with it, so the chapter lead means diddly squat. It stays with the DB, or you're a dumbass.

And yes, the GMs being able to use it for more chapters than Jill has an effect, by my logic. Why are you stating this likeI didn't already say it myself? I literally pointed out that even with Jill's early chapters, the GMs would still have it for longer. Go read my post. Go. Read it.

You're not considering the fact that once you use a stat booster, it's gone forever, while resolve can be moved to different units every chapter. So while your robe/shield is gone on Jill forever, Zihark can use resolve and someone will still be able to use it down the line in part 4.p

Verifiably wrong, since I pointed out this behavior of stat boosters specifically.

Being able to use a form of favoritism for X chapters isn't the only thing that matters.

No, but I never claimed it was the only thing that mattered, just that it was a major factor.

You should really try to stop putting words in people's mouths, IMO. It makes you look silly in situations like this.

The problem is that Jill actually needs more favoritism than just robe/shield. She's also very borderline at doubling (usually, she's going to be a bit short of doubling), which means you're going to need to pour extra exp on her, ON TOP OF THE ROBE AND SHIELD.

This is in comparison to Zihark getting, what, paragon in part 1 when he's like the only guy who wants it/can use it anyway?

It's actually vs. Zihark with Paragon in Part 1, plus Resolve in Pt 3. I'm clearly not arguing that Jill is better than Zihark, here. Take away Resolve, you take away the argument.

Well let's see, the list of units who are significantly more likely to take an extra hit before dying with either a robe or shield.

Mia

Boyd

Oscar

Titania

Neph

If you decide to give Soren the 3-3 crown, a robe or shield should also stop him from getting 2HKO'd.

Being able to take an extra hit helps out quite a bit, since Boyd/Oscar/Neph are getting 3HKO'd pretty often, Mia gets 2HKO'd by quite a bit of enemies and gets 3HKO'd by basically everything else too, and we all know about Soren's durability. Going from 3HKO to 4HKO is like a 33% increase in survivability.

I asked you three questions:

1) which two GM units are taking an "extra hit".

2) why is this superior to Jill's usage.

3) why this disparity is greater than the Resolve one.

You only answered #1. By the way, I've already conceded that #2 is probably true, just in case you also didn't read that part of my post, too.

The difference between a robe/shield and resolve is that a robe/shield will CLEARLY benefit multiple units, no HP manipulation required, while Resolve is situational on multiple units and is only clearly useful on one unit (Mordy).

If this was your answer to #3, try harder. You are underestimating Resolve.

The problem is that Soren is going from being 2HKO'd on enemy phase to being OHKO'd. It'd be like protecting a heron except for a much smaller benefit. The only way Soren would be safe is if he was facing negligible hit rates with resolve, but that's not happening unless you throw more favoritism on him.

Fine with me. You have to protect Soren anyway, since his LCK is so bad that there are units without Killer weapons that actually have listed crit on him, which means a OHKO danger. Sure, it's like protecting a Heron with a smaller benefit. So? Soren's not as good as a heron, not even with Resolve. Being as good as a heron is the highest bar to clear in the entire game. He's still ORKO'ing everything, which is a huge improvement over his normal performance.

Haar can also use just something like a brave lance, or even just a speedwing can help him out. He has more options available than resolve.

I said his offensive options were limited. I did not say that they did not exist. If Haar uses Resolve, now I can use the lance and/or Speedwind elsewhere.

The other units have even more options than Haar. Gatrie can also brave lance, but he can also take the 3-3 crown. Titania can brave axe (provided Jill feels like giving it up, or you aren't fielding Jill in the first place), or speedwing, or you can even cap her level off with BEXP and hope for the best, since spd is her third highest growth after her str caps.

See Haar argument.

Seeing as you ignored my Mia example, I'll repost it. Try to actually counter it this time, not this "oh it's okay, you can do this and this and make resolve useful on her, even though I'm just going to ignore the other easier alternatives."

I did not ignore it, I conceded the point and agreed that she was merely OK with it.

Note that a robe or shield will also give her a better chance at taking an extra hit, which is more attacks where her avoid can kick in, which is an obvious boost to her durability. In other words, I don't see much of a difference in durability if MIa is getting OHKO'd at single digit hit rates versus getting 3HKO'd at 30-40ish hit rates.

Mia caps her HP naturally in tier 2 (she will not even get the full benefit of a Robe), and +DEF isn't really going to do much more than turn the already-somewhat-rare 2HKO's into 3HKO's, which she already does just by levelling up or taking Thunder. Also, you can get her Resolve performance to 0-listed in enough scenarios to make it worthwhile. I don't think I'd chance her being OHKO'ed, just like I wouldn't for Zihark, unless it's at the end of a long string of attacks or something.

Why the fuck does Ranulf even want Resolve? He's already fucking durable and doubles everything. Resolve does jack shit for him.

Makes him invincible and keeps him from ever having to heal or be healed. Nothing but grassing and killing. Also improves activation of Adept and/or whatever the fuck his mastery is.

So if I give him resolve + energy drops + dracoshield + still baby his gauge, I can make Kyza usable (not even good. USABLE). The whole point of tier lists is to not do retarded stuff, so doing this with kyza just goes against the whole idea.

Kyza has to be ranked just like anyone else. If I can make Kyza decent with Resolve, that's more than what Zihark is doing with it in Part 3. Speaking of retarded stuff.

You can look at my Mia argument and pretty much apply it to Neph.

Ok, you can look at mine and also pretty much apply it to Neph.

Note that a dracoshield/robe also helps Neph's durability.

Neph already has access to two of them by this point, does this really make a big difference?

Seeing as you basically dodged the whole 1-7 point, I'll explain it for you so you can't epicly dodge it this time.

Zihark/Nolan spending only 10 turns next to each other in all of 1-6 means you either didn't even try half the time to keep them together or you blazed through the chapter ridiculously fast (most likely the former).

It was an experiment to see how long it took, not a real clear. PS: keeping them together, or any two units frankly, constrains your movements.

The problem is the degree of stalling/favoritism (which oddly enough is something similar to what you accused me of not doing with the whole resolve thing [even though your accusation is not true], yet you fail to apply it here. Another double standard from int made in the exact same post, no one is surprised).

There's a bigger difference between spending a few turns shoving units for support abuse and spending hundreds of turns boss abusing.

Everyone says this, but nobody quantifies it. If boss abuse for 100 is verboten, what value of turns can I spend for supports? I will spend that many turns boss abusing for free.

what the fuck are you talking about? What does Aran have to do with Zihark's supporter? If you're talking about Nolan hooking up with Aran, that's not relevant, because anyone we decide to pair Zihark up with isn't going to magically go for another person and leave ZIhark with no support.

So how about you actually respond to my point this time?

You said that Zihark is also helping his support partner. I said that Nolan might not give a shit, because Earth is not his best support anyway. It's not even better than Aran's in 3-6, actually. *shrug* Just an observation.

EDIT: holy shit that was a long post. OK, I'm done with this subject. If I am alone in thinking that Zihark -- and by extension the DB -- is over-rated, so be it. I'm finished wasting keystrokes on this for now.

Edited June 24, 2009 by Interceptor

[Vykan12]

My issue with Oliver is that Micaiah has 32 magic at promotion and the same ability to armscroll for S staves. Since everyone else seems to think that she is a healbot at this point then she might as well fortify by herself.

She’ll only have 32 mag if you raised her to 20/12/1. Thani bombing is cool and all, but I don’t see where she could get all that levelling, particularly the 11 levels in 3 chapters from physic abuse.

You do have a point about fortify!Micaiah, but it’s not a bad idea to have multiple healers in 4-E since you can replace a fortify use with multiple physics in more situations.

Laura doesn't even need an armscroll and will have comparable magic to his 31.

Laura can’t even attack in first tier, which severely limits her opportunity to gain exp (capping at 11-12 per turn really isn’t much). Even if she somehow gets to third tier in 4-E, she’ll only have 27 mag and needs another 6 levels to tie Oliver’s base.

At least Pelleas does something better in his chapter than anyone not named Shinon (3 range) or Zihark(probably gets 0% vs dragons).

Pelleas risks being a defensive liability since laguz have huge movement on land (wtf 10 range) and are also charging you from 2 different directions, not to mention you’re probably not sending your best units on Tibarn’s route, which reduces the plausibility of Pelleas getting a wall set up in front of him.

Also, what Pelleas is doing vs red dragons isn’t really that special. Base level Calill with bolting can do ~62% damage to them, while bolting!Bastian ORKOes them (108% damage). They are also pretty rare in 4-5 and also badly positioned (most are located in a swamp, or on an island not connected to where your party starts), and 146 hit isn’t that menacing towards some of your dodgier units.

[Florete]

No I’m dead serious. If you didn’t raise Rhys/Mist/Laura (very likely due to none of them being that good and having trouble levelling up), then Oliver is basically your best raw healer in 4-E.

Why not Mist? She's your best healer for all of part 3, has her own promotion item and a horse. Laura is a possibility as well if she's given Paragon in second tier and will beat Oliver, like, everywhere.

And no, the extra healing Oliver provides isn’t superfluous. A --/--/11 Elincia has 21 mag to base level Oliver’s 31. This means that when both fortify, Oliver’s giving 41 hp to every unit within a 15 space radius while Elincia’s giving 31 within a 10 space radius. That’s a huge difference if we’re healing various units from dragon hits, or from an Ashera AOE.

You said it wasn't superfluous, but all you did was show that Oliver heals more with a greater range, which very well may be superfluous. PE, but I never use Fortify outside of 4-E-5, simply because I never need to. When it is used, Micaiah uses it.

She’ll only have 32 mag if you raised her to 20/12/1. Thani bombing is cool and all, but I don’t see where she could get all that levelling, particularly the 11 levels in 3 chapters from physic abuse.

"All that leveling?" I'd call that level sandbagging her. I personally find it easy to get her to 20/20/1 by Endgame with only 1 chapter of Paragon use, maybe 2. And "11 levels in 3 chapters?" She has 5 maps before Endgame in second tier, and she can fight if she doesn't need to heal.

You do have a point about fortify!Micaiah, but it’s not a bad idea to have multiple healers in 4-E since you can replace a fortify use with multiple physics in more situations.

How does Oliver help more than Mist/Elincia/Calill/Laura/Soren/other scrub staff user in this situation?

Laura can’t even attack in first tier, which severely limits her opportunity to gain exp (capping at 11-12 per turn really isn’t much). Even if she somehow gets to third tier in 4-E, she’ll only have 27 mag and needs another 6 levels to tie Oliver’s base.

She also will probably have a support and enough AS to not be doubled.

Also, what Pelleas is doing vs red dragons isn’t really that special. Base level Calill with bolting can do ~62% damage to them, while bolting!Bastian ORKOes them (108% damage). They are also pretty rare in 4-5 and also badly positioned (most are located in a swamp, or on an island not connected to where your party starts), and 146 hit isn’t that menacing towards some of your dodgier units.

Except getting Bolting in the first place is pretty difficult. IIRC, it requires Heather to gain 5 Str by 3-2, which is pretty much impossible without an Energy Drop or two.

Edited June 24, 2009 by Rage Fox

[dondon151]

"All that leveling?" I'd call that level sandbagging her. I personally find it easy to get her to 20/20/1 by Endgame with only 1 chapter of Paragon use, maybe 2. And "11 levels in 3 chapters?" She has 5 maps before Endgame in second tier, and she can fight if she doesn't need to heal.

I don't. It's difficult to get her to 20/0 first tier without Paragon use (that's better on Sothe or Zihark) and it's difficult to get her to --/20 second tier under the same circumstances. I'd say something like 18/16/1 is a bit more accurate.

By the way, Fortify is only really useful on one map, and that's 4-E-5. Depending on the number of staff users you bring to endgame, Fortify's utility can and will be replaced by Physic most of the time.

[Vykan12]

Why not Mist? She's your best healer for all of part 3, has her own promotion item and a horse.

Her best source of exp are florete kills, but she’s doing Lyre level damage with it (they both have 22 base atk), so it’s pretty hard for her to land those, not to mention she can only do so if her new position won’t put her at risk the following phase.

Even Rhys can level faster than Mist. With ellight, he has 28 Mt targeting res, which is usually good enough for a 2HKO. He also starts at a higher base level, and both have roughly the same durability until one ceases to get doubled. Mist needs ~6 levels for that to happen.

You said it wasn't superfluous, but all you did was show that Oliver heals more with a greater range, which very well may be superfluous. PE, but I never use Fortify outside of 4-E-5, simply because I never need to. When it is used, Micaiah uses it.

Let’s take the consequences it has on one unit. If Caineghis can take 3 dragon hits instead of 2 thanks to +10 hp, the same is probably true of many other units who got Oliver’s superior healing treatment. This is especially true of the people outside of Elincia’s fortify range but within Oliver’s.

How does Oliver help more than Mist/Elincia/Calill/Laura/Soren/other scrub staff user in this situation?

The more healers we’re willing to deploy in 4-E, the less competition Oliver has for his slot.

Except getting Bolting in the first place is pretty difficult. IIRC, it requires Heather to gain 5 Str by 3-2, which is pretty much impossible without an Energy Drop or two.

Those were just examples. Dragonfoe!Bastian can do the same thing with blizzard/meteor.

Edited June 24, 2009 by Vykan12

[Colonel M]

And Pelleas can do nearly the same thing with a Bolting tome.

So... uh, what was the point on bringing up Bolting there is what I'm asking.

Edited June 25, 2009 by Colonel M

[grandjackal]

And Pelleas can do nearly the same thing with a Bolting tome.

So... uh, what was the point on bringing up Bolting there is what I'm asking.

I think the question is "Why are you giving DragonFoe to people who can do that regardless?"

[Colonel M]

I think the question is "Why are you giving DragonFoe to people who can do that regardless?"

Fair enough.

Well, let's just knock Callil out of the question since the only "logical" Sage that's going to be fielded in 4-5 is Bastian. Guess I don't know the exact figures on how durable Pelleas is either (as in how many hits it takes to die).

Bolting is just too difficult, so I try not to assume it in the first place. Bastian using something like Meteor / Blizzard with DragonFoe would make more sense, which at least was pointed out later on.

Edited June 25, 2009 by Colonel M

[Narga_Rocks]

Pelleas has 24 Magic and can only kill them because Fenrir is so strong. Bolting for example requires 33 magic or some support help. Purge requires 36 magic or again some support help. Now, Bastian is a good idea for this, in that he has 35 magic and can thus do it with any of the three long ranges he has access to, needing dragonfoe for Blizzard and Meteor, just like Pelleas needs it. On the other hand, there are still a couple of reasons to give it to Pelleas:

Depending on how many long range tomes we actually stole, we might want to use them either before 4-5 or in endgame. Since Pelleas is the only guy who can use the dark ones (Lehran should be using Ashera Staff twice in 4-E-5 and it should be over on turn 3) and we aren't bringing Pelleas to endgame and don't need the 1500 that those tomes are worth, he costs us the least. Just cause any other mage could do it doesn't mean they should do it. Letting Pelleas do it is a better use of resources. Also, although it is possible that the only people you are giving fighting experience to is the people going to endgame, I kinda doubt it. As such, I think Pelleas is the best use of resources. Also, this makes him do something in the chapter. We've got 12 slots and since a lot of our other strong people are in other maps he seems like a good idea for this. Further, while he is blasting away at dragons, a mage like Bastian or Calill or anyone can be meteoring tigers if we want. They have a lot better move and need more speed than Pelleas is capable of reaching to double. Bastian can't double them, of course, but a well leveled mage should be able to. And even if you don't have one that can, at least your mage isn't occupied beating on dragons.

As for their positions, there is one in the swamp partway between your starting area and the island the boss starts on. This guy will get to the army unless we send them all up by the east path. Speaking of the east path, the guy who starts on the northeast island moves on turn 1 (and thereafter). He reaches the thickets by the time the army gets there. And there is the dragon on the island with the boss. All of these could potentially cause issues. I say having someone take them out is better than not.

As for protecting Pelleas, there are 4 tigers and 5 cats that are an issue on turn 1, or something like that. Sending a high defense unit with beastfoe to kill one without being countered and let the other 3 attack him on enemy phase takes care of them before they reach Pelleas, and it takes 3 units to wall away the cats and if you position your tank and wall correctly then the tigers can't attack the wall. I'm sure there are other ways that don't require a guy with 32 defense and enough hps to take it, but since I don't need Gatrie in Ike's group I figure why not? Anyway, once the initial rush is dealt with however you choose, the rest is pretty simple.

I still vote 3 healers in endgame, none of them fully devoted to healing anyway, although 1 should be mostly devoted to it. Micaiah is pretty easy to build if you let her kill stuff. Depending on playstyle she probably does need paragon in the desert to get her up to 30 Mag, but she is forced. It really comes down to how often you need healing in 3-6 and 3-12. The better you do, the more Micaiah can attack and the more kills she gets, thus the higher the level she reaches. In 4-P if Micaiah has 18 speed (level 20/11) then she can double most paladins with resolve. Obviously she is OHKO'd at this point, but since we aren't letting her get attacked anyway at least she can now double which ORKOs since thani is a 2hko on these things. That helps, but is unecessary to get her to a level good enough for 30 mag anyway. That just helps her be better at attacking in 4-E-2. If other people can get her to 20/20, or even 18/16 before promotion, then assuming they are at least close to max bexp I don't see why we should consider her to not even have 30 mag.

For dondon: those levels you gave are enough for 30 mag before promotion, so she will still be a better healbot then Oliver.

Laura most definitely requires paragon, and probably in both 4-P and 4-3, so I can understand the complaint with her. The thing is, though, if you don't let her have paragon then 27 mag is good enough for the first couple of maps and since she has a 70% mag growth she should catch up when you actually need fortify. However, I am probably not a good authority on what level is reasonable for Laura to reach. She got a large portion of the bexp from part 1 and so finished around level 14 or something instead of like 10 or 11. Then she got almost all my 1-E bexp in the 3-6 base and after 7 or 8 uses of physic when I could have used mend for some of them I sealed her in 3-6 (losing a turn, effectively) and gave her something I forged in 1-E. She is probably the unit I gave the most abuse to, especially considering I gave her paragon in 4-P, 4-3, 4-E-1. If someone could say what levels they got Laura to without all that, then that would help, considering she needs 23 levels to get 25 magic, then she needs a few levels in third tier to get that 27 up to 30 or so. I assume it would be something like 12/13/5 before she gets 30 magic. At which point she should still have 27 speed and thus not be doubled by anything not a swordmaster in the first two parts of 4-E. Even without abuse I don't see that being worse than Oliver, but I guess her hp/def would be sad at that point.

Mist and Rhys do have issues, and Elincia doesn't have much magic, but Elincia would mostly be a backup healer when she isn't blitzing things. It's just he isn't healing that much better than anyone else. The big thing is that there will be times in which nobody needs to heal and we can finish a chapter faster by having our healers attack. Oliver just doesn't do this very well. Plus, if we allow them to attack, Oliver is the one we most have to worry about guarding for the coming enemy phase. Basically though, since we only need like 2 1/2 healers anyway, if we have Micaiah + Laura + Oliver I foresee very many turns where they don't need to heal and very few where we need all 3 and all three healers need 30 magic. I guess it depends on playstyle and who you have fighting, but I just think needing that much healing more than 5 times throughout 4-E is just bad playing. I say 5 because that is what fortify gives you, but it is simple enough to get through endgame with 1 or 2 fortify uses and 2 ashera staff uses in 4-E-5.

Edited June 25, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Vykan12]

Bastian can't double them, of course, but a well leveled mage should be able to.

4-5 tigers have 18 AS on NM while Bastian has 24 base spd. He should be able to double them consistently.

Mist and Rhys do have issues, and Elincia doesn't have much magic, but Elincia would mostly be a backup healer when she isn't blitzing things.

Elincia’s combat is pretty bad on HM. For example, in the beginning of part 4, she’s a full 5 levels away from being able to double 4-2 enemies.

The big thing is that there will be times in which nobody needs to heal and we can finish a chapter faster by having our healers attack.

In 4-E? Dragons and spirits have monstrous accuracy, auras do dmg/2, and 3/5 chapters have AOE threats. There’s plenty of healing to be had.

It is simple enough to get through endgame with 1 or 2 fortifie uses and 2 ashera staff uses in 4-E-5.

The ashera staff requires you recruit Lehran, which requires Ike’s spd to be buffed above his --/20/0 average (if he’s even capped his level by then). There’s a good chance (I think ~2/3) that won’t happen unless you put a speedwing into him, and giving that speedwing to someone else is probably a greater return than anything Lehran does in the final chapter.

=======

Anyway let’s not get away from the main question: Is Pelleas’ ability to blick 4-5 dragons at range more valuable than Oliver’s healing contributions in 4-E?

[Colonel M]

My main point is Pelleas can go to Endgame too. Though... he's only doing so much better than Oliver in some areas (IIRC he can escape the being doubled factoid).

[Florete]

I don't. It's difficult to get her to 20/0 first tier without Paragon use (that's better on Sothe or Zihark) and it's difficult to get her to --/20 second tier under the same circumstances. I'd say something like 18/16/1 is a bit more accurate.

Getting her to 20 in first tier is easy without Paragon. Thani-bombing, Sacrifice, 1-9, there are lots of ways and plenty of time to do it. Second tier is a bit tougher, but 20/12/1 (and possibly the newly minted 18/16/1) is simply sandbagging her level.

Her best source of exp are florete kills, but she’s doing Lyre level damage with it (they both have 22 base atk), so it’s pretty hard for her to land those, not to mention she can only do so if her new position won’t put her at risk the following phase.

She can heal on most turns, that's her primary source of experience. Plus, she'll likely get one of the two/three Paragons we have once 3-11 comes around for at least one map, giving her a signficant boost, and Physics and Recover become available.

Even Rhys can level faster than Mist. With ellight, he has 28 Mt targeting res, which is usually good enough for a 2HKO. He also starts at a higher base level, and both have roughly the same durability until one ceases to get doubled. Mist needs ~6 levels for that to happen.

IIRC, it doesn't two round anything, only borderline, and gradually gets much worse.

Let’s take the consequences it has on one unit. If Caineghis can take 3 dragon hits instead of 2 thanks to +10 hp, the same is probably true of many other units who got Oliver’s superior healing treatment. This is especially true of the people outside of Elincia’s fortify range but within Oliver’s.

But is Caineghis really going to be in that kind of position where a heal will be significantly needed and we can't find easy treatment elsewhere, like Micaiah or Elincia w/Recover (Flight, remember)? 76 HP/44 Def/20 Res/79 avoid before supports with his Earth affinity is pretty awesome.

The more healers we’re willing to deploy in 4-E, the less competition Oliver has for his slot.

Except for the fact that pretty much any healer is better than him for various reasons (supports, range, etc.) and we probably don't need more than two healers in Endgame anyway? I don't know about you, but I generally find that Micaiah + Elincia alone is plenty even with Elincia fighting half the time.

It's also worth mentioning our Heron with Blessing. If it's Reyson, that'll likely be 12-14 HP for sitting next to him. If it's Rafiel then it'll probably be ~16. Reyson's Canto makes this much easier.

[Jaybee]

Plus, she'll likely get one of the two/three Paragons we have once 3-11 comes around for at least one map, giving her a signficant boost

A CRK that we might want to eventually use (like Marcia) will want the Paragon. Some third tier units may want it so that they can get a wee bit more exp. Only counting eventual units that we would want, thhe only one who doesn't give a shit about it is Ike.

IIRC, it doesn't two round anything, only borderline, and gradually gets much worse.

So? At least it helps damage a guy by 1/3 of his health, so that Ike/Titania/Soren/Boyd/Oscar/Mia/Gatrie can either weaken it further or KO it.

But is Caineghis really going to be in that kind of position where a heal will be significantly needed and we can't find easy treatment elsewhere, like Micaiah or Elincia w/Recover (Flight, remember)? 76 HP/44 Def/20 Res/79 avoid before supports with his Earth affinity is pretty awesome.

White Dragons.

[Narga_Rocks]

If we assume Oliver makes it into endgame, then Pelleas is only killing 3 Dragons vs. all that healing. Of course Oliver probably wins it. The issue is that Oliver doesn't always get to go to endgame. Pelleas is the most resource happy way of killing the dragons in our way.

If Pelleas tries to fight his way into endgame, he needs to kill stuff in 4-2 with his awesome 70% hit rate, then fight in 4-5 when he doesn't have access to fire or wind so other mages are better and Ilyana and Bastian at least beat him in durability. Then he has to be better than one of the other 10 guys going to endgame to get more time. I think if we are doing the whole "assume everybody goes to endgame" thing then Oliver wins by a lot because Pelleas has to catch up when he can't hit stuff reliably. But if Pelleas isn't forced into endgame, then Oliver shouldn't get a free pass either.

As for Elincia, okay, without paragon in 4-2 her offence will be mediocre. The fun way to use Elincia is get her to level 3 with 3 or 4 physic uses and a fair amound of mend and a boss kill (2-E) in part 2. With Leanne help it won't hurt her offence enough to matter. Then Elincia takes most of the left side by herself with a little help from others. Usually if you let her be the one killing stuff she is ORKOing everything on the map about half way through and she is set. Letting her have more than her fair shair of kills is only true if we are raising 4 or more people for endgame in Tibarn's group. And even then, the thing about Elincia is when she is good she is very good, when she's not, well... like you pointed out. I just really like what she does to auras in 4-E-5 with 28str/34spd and 2 blood tides and nasir. Anyone with 43mt with a brave weapon and 34 spd can accomplish this, but not very many can do it and then get out of the way for others to make use of the same bonuses. Considering she is just about the fastest growing unit in terms of ability to kill things all over the place, and many of them before they can counter and she doesn't have to worry about getting her weapon hammerne'd, I just don't see why it isn't worth doing. 6 levels for Elincia does far more for her offence than 6 levels for most other people.

But I guess back to your point, if we let Oliver go to endgame rather than people that are better than him, then he might be doing better than Pelleas blicking dragons, but he is holding our team back since we no longer have a healer that can fight too.

As for Ike in 3-7, just use a card. The Black Knight might move when someone is one square outside his range, but even if not, there is this really nice thicket you can stand ranulf in (leave him untransformed for 2 move in the river and transform when you move him on the thicket), not that he needs the thicket it's just mostly for reference. Anyway, this thicket allows the black knight to only hit from range, and we have to stand Ike adjacent to Ranulf on the right side of him. The crit/dodge bonus this gives allows Ranulf to 100% live, just make sure the other things are dead first. I don't think sothe/micaiah/volug move, but if they do micaiah and sothe's range is bigger than BK's by one in some spots so you can draw them away if they do move, and I don't remember if volug can attack that spot or not. You have 3 fliers (2 helpful ones) and reyson and can have Ranulf revert so Haar can pick him up. Janaff can't carry Ike (16 weight vs. 15, I think) but Ulki can pick Ike up after Ike uses a card. If Haar and Ulki are somehow still in the BK's range then have reyson vigor. It is really not hard, even on HM. I don't think we should assume no Ashera staff in 4-E-5 simply because it takes thought to get him.

In 4-E-5, all those Auras are only hurting the 3 or 4 out of 9 or 10 guys that don't have Nihil or Parity, and with Heron help and two blood tides and nasir a good party can kill all the auras by the end of turn 2. Ashera only gets her hit all attack on turn 1 and her target Gareth attack on turn 2. She dies on turn 3 even to a less good party because one or two auras leftover can still be killed without needing Ike and a few others. Two Ashera staff uses, no Fortify uses, one dead Ashera. By the way, all someone needs is 45 hps to survive beating on auras. If you do 89 damage, and take 44 then the ashera staff heals you. If you do 90, it dies and you'll take less than 44 anyway. As for people who like hitting Auras and take damage who are hurting from Ashera's hit all attack? Either don't use them if they can't survive anymore or use Micaiah/some other healer to heal them first. Ashera staff should be used after all the attacking is done on each turn.

Edit: And I thought tigers had 20/22 speed in 4-5 HM. Well, if they only have 18/20 then there is another reason to not let Bastian beat on dragons. He should be killing tigers! :P

Edited June 25, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Vykan12]

My main point is Pelleas can go to Endgame too. Though... he's only doing so much better than Oliver in some areas (IIRC he can escape the being doubled factoid).

Pelleas is better in combat sure, but both are so bad in that department they shouldn't be attacking at all in the first place.

A --/20/1 Pelleas (balbeirth) has 43 atk and 26 AS. A 4-E general has ~20 res and 50 hp so he's doing ~46% damage per hit while not doubling. That's just not impressive at this point in the game. Defensively, 40+ atk is needed to 2HKO him, and plenty of enemies have that. As risky as it is to have Oliver attacking enemies, putting Pelleas in the same situation would probably get him killed anyway.

Edited June 25, 2009 by Vykan12

[Gergeshwan]

With regards to Pelleas vs. Oliver, Pelleas can heal just fine with Physic. Oliver has a bit more magic (20/3 Pelleas has 29 against Oliver's 31, which basically means one more range), but really his only advantage is Fortify use. Which there is only one of. It's great to have around, but 5 uses isn't a whole lot. Micaiah's healing too, and Oliver has to share it with her for sure, possibly even someone else. Since it's definitely needed for 4-E-5, it's best to conserve uses. Hammerne could be used, but since Tarvos/Braves/Nice forges all want repaired too, it probably can't get more than one round back.

A lot of this seems to be about "Oliver heals in 4-E, Pelleas owns a few dragons," but Pelleas is a competent healer, and he doesn't get doubled by almost all of everything. That's not too important since he's mostly using Physic anyway, but it does mean he can use Mend safely on the front lines to overcome the Mag difference. I'm not saying Pelleas heals better than Oliver, but the difference isn't so huge that Oliver can be viable for 4-E and Pelleas isn't. For what it's worth, Pelleas has better combat too. Not that it's good, it's just better than Oliver's. Pelleas also gives out a water support, which is always nice.

The real issue for Oliver is even getting to 4-E. This will probably get called for PE, but I do just fine with Micaiah alone. A lot of good Endgame units are massive dodge tanks, and some turns, no one even ends up hurt. Micaiah can pretty much restore full health with Physic, and if necessary, get vigored and do it again. Then after adding healing items, more healers aren't in extremely high demand. If you really need another healer, Elincia, Soren, and Calill are in line before either Pelleas or Oliver are considered. Pelleas is just as unlikely to make it, but he contributes beforehand at the very least. If Oliver doesn't get in endgame, then his contribution becomes a few turns at the end of 4-4, which doesn't amount to a whole lot.

[Narga_Rocks]

Well yeah, that's why pelleas loses endgame. He needs a crown and two armscrolls to get to S staves, or he needs to get up to tier 3 through fighting while missing a quarter of the time and needing another unit to get the enemy down to 15 or so hp in the first place. Then he still needs those two armscrolls or a lot of staff uses to get to S. There are a few people who want discipline so he doesn't get sole rights to that. Micaiah might like it to get to S Staff sooner, Laura to get to B Light by the end of 4-E-2 for Purge blessing, Sothe to get to SS more quickly and suck less. If you brought Mist and want to give her Alondite for some weird reason she needs to get from A to SS before she needs it. The point is we don't need another guy using reasources. That is, however, mitigated somewhat by the vast amounts of money we have at that time, but still, it is something Oliver doesn't need to go through. Frankly, even if Pelleas' endgame was much better, it isn't worth the effort to get him there compared to what Oliver takes. It is just that Oliver has other competition that is better than Pelleas so it doesn't really matter.

Edit: Oliver doesn't really get use at the end of 4-4. Think about it, he is there for 1 or 2 turns in an area that had strong enough people to get past the armors in the first place. And Rafiel is there to recruit him so he is clearly there to vigor said strong people to clear out the area. Having Oliver use his Nosferatu means there is one less use for Micaiah to use in Endgame if she wants to. She might not need it, but why take the risk? And since we are probably getting Oliver around turn 8 he isn't getting all the way to the right where our other units are killing those annoying reinforcements and getting chests. Plus he won't even make it there by turn 10 anyway and then the chapter is supposed to be done.

Edited June 25, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Vykan12]

But I guess back to your point, if we let Oliver go to endgame rather than people that are better than him, then he might be doing better than Pelleas blicking dragons, but he is holding our team back since we no longer have a healer that can fight too.

But which healer on the team can also fight? Elincia seems like the only viable one to me. Plus with your other 8 slots being filled with your elite fighters, having a healer who can fight at a sub-par level isn't really contributing much.

As for Ike in 3-7, just use a card.

Wouldn’t a wind edge do the same? Anyway, that’s assuming the BK doesn’t auto-equip the alondite, otherwise Ike gets ORKOed regardless.

In 4-E-5, all those Auras are only hurting the 3 or 4 out of 9 or 10 guys that don't have Nihil or Parity, and with Heron help and two blood tides and nasir a good party can kill all the auras by the end of turn 2.

If we’re beating 4-E-5 in 2 turns, we could just as easily beat 4-5 in 3 and so Pelleas’ dragon blicking wouldn’t matter whatsoever.

but really his only advantage is Fortify use. Which there is only one of. It's great to have around, but 5 uses isn't a whole

You can hammerne it if necessary.