OMG it's a tier list

[Interceptor]

And now, in this post, I'm going to respond to smash's point about Aran v. Edward in 1-4.

But, before I get to that, I'm going to put on my magical Professor Hat and tell everyone how you clear 1-4 in Hard Mode, because apparently nobody else has any idea how to do it efficiently. Please forgive me any minor mistakes in details, because it's been a while since I cleared this chapter. I promise that the general strategy is sound.

I am assuming that everyone know what you need to do in base (forges, beastkiller, establish supports, etc). So, on Turn 1, you do the following:

South: Sothe goes there, kills something. Nolan and Laura follow him (she'll be keeping Nolan alive for the remainder of the chapter).

North: Everyone with a 2-range attack, except for your intended tank, focus fires on the leftmost breakable wall until it falls apart. Now you move Eddie your tank into that corridor, one space east of the elbow joint.

Why are we moving to that one space? Two reasons: the first thing you'll notice is that there are two spaces for indirects to attack, here: south ofthe joint through the window, and east of Eddie your tank in the hallway. The second reason is because of what happens when you hit "End Turn"... Enemy Phase: the boss in the northwest corner moves next to Eddie your tank, and stands there, untransformed. I am not shitting you, this actually happens. Try it.

Turn 2: lol, the boss gets rocked. Ilyana doubles this thing because it's untransformed, and does like 70% of its health in one shot because it has like no RES whatsoever. She has like a 10-20% chance of just ORKO'ing it because of a crit. If she doesn't ORKO, Micaiah can easily finish it off, and with the right forge Eddie your tank may also be able to finish it off, uncountered. Congratulations, you've now killed the second biggest threat in the entire chapter, without taking a single point of damage, and now half of the laguz in the level just lost 5avo/5hit because their an authority star just died. Meanwhile, Sothe is obliterating everything that looks at him, and Nolan can 2HKO cats and 3HKO tigers with his sweet-ass forge, so he's doing fine (borderline on cats if he gets STR-screwed, but Leo support can fix that) and the south + left/right sides are as good as toast.

Turn 2 Enemy Phase has someone run up and try to avenge the death of their Dear Leader in the north. If your tank is Aran, there's a 1-4% chance that you just wasted your time and will have to restart the chapter, and if your tank is Eddie, the enemy is probably going to hurt him enough to put Micaiah in Wrath range when she Sacrifices on him next turn.

The turns after this depend on RNG factors, but the general idea is that you keep Eddie your tank rooted to that spot, since Micaiah/Ilyana turn it into a death zone, and the tank staying alive only requires popping a self-heal while this murder-fest happens. Meanwhile, Sothe and Nolan clean up the sides and pick up items as needed.

You're all welcome. Please feel free to use this strategy on your next HM run, and be in awe of how easy you make this chapter. And now, to address some of the points that smash made:

- Micaiah with Sacrifice will generally heal Aran fully (or almost fully) if he got hit. She won't if it was someone like Edward.

Micaiah with Sacrifice will potentially fail to get into Wrath range if Aran didn't get hit hard enough (like if Aran popped SPD on a level-up, and cats don't double him anymore. Whoops! Now Micaiah's offense might take a hit).

Laura with heal might not be enough, especially if Edward got def screwed.

Look everyone! Smash's favorite argument, aka "what if the player is a retard?". Laura certainly has MEND in this chapter, which can easily top off Eddie if we desire.

So let's use a slightly more realistic level, shall we? Something like 6/0 Edward. Even though that's still a bit high (since he's pretty much out for 1-1 and 1-3, that's 2 levels in 2 chapters, still stretching it using our aforementioned genius' irrefutable logic). 20.7 HP, 5.7 def. [...] Oops, 26 att tigers now might actually OHKO, and 24 att tigers is basically the same as 8/0 Edward vs 26 att tigers. [...] sry edward, ur garbage. gtfo.

Unlike Aran's chance to get critted and die, which we can do absolutely nothing to fix, Eddie's problem here can be fixed with a support (see below) or a Draco. Piece of cake.

like who? Nolan? Nolan doesn't want Light. If he wanted a temporary support until Zihark/Volug came he'd take Leo, since Leo gives att. Plus if Edward's supposed to be frontlining in 1-4, Nolan and Edward will be at different chokepoints anyway. Edward isn't going to get Leo, since the +def might actually help Nolan (he's also losing ~50% of his HP from tigers), while Edward loses like 90% of his HP so +1 def isn't helping him anyway. Laura probably wasn't standing next to Edward long enough.

Laura doesn't need to stand next to Eddie, she just has to heal him. Support points build really quickly that way. This is a pretty simply support arrangement to set up, since they have two shared chapters plus whatever healing she did for him. Leonardo is still a possibility for Eddie, despite Nolan existing (Nolan can, after all, hook up with Laura even though he doesn't get the +DEF).

- Aran hits harder than Edward.

Doesn't make much of a difference, because the primary purpose of both of these units is to stand still and not die. The real damage-dealers are firing over their heads. Any damage that Eddie/Aran contributes is gravy, not meat. Again, Leonardo can give +1 mt to Eddie if they are supported. Aran is looking at something like a +2 mt lead, in a reasonable worst case.

Here's something I had in a debate between Meg vs Gareth, about Meg's damage in 1-4, since my opponent tried to pass off the damage as pointless. Meg is of course not Edward, but base level Meg actually has more str than him anyway (lawl, stop failing Edward!) until level 9 where he ties, so it more than applies anyway, and he only doubles a small portion of the tigers if even that, so for Edward it's actually even worse.

An interesting story, but this is not actually a really good way to fight in this chapter. You have two indirect spots, and the tank can self-heal. Also, Ilyana can upgrade her weapon etc.

btw, if someone like Int wants to complain about Ilyana using elthunder instead of a forge just to try and dodge the entire point of this example, we actually only have ~8k gold for this chapter (5k starting, 3k from meg's fortune). Even if we sell off things we won't be using, like Micaiah's Light tome (we have thani), that still pushes it to like 9k. Since we want several forges, plus Sothe's beast killer, and like a hand axe for Nolan, among a few other things, we might not have enough gold to get Ilyana a forge that's significantly better than Elthunder, especially since giving Ilyana a forge is like at the bottom of our list of priorities. And I mean significantly, since even in this example her thunder tome would need +4 mt to let Meg kill, and Meg has more str than Edward. In fact, even a +5 mt thunder tome might not let Edward kill, since Edward's that bad.

Silly rabbit, I'm just going to sell Kard, Elthunder, and Guard, which gives me another ~2400g to do whatever I want.

speaking of gold, Edward is more liekly forced to use a vulnerary whenever he self-heals (same reason as Micaiah sacrificing; using an herb isn't enough). However, we only have 32 uses from what our PCs joined with, and we probably burned through a lot in the first four chapters (the first two don't even have a dedicated healer, and even after we do, Laura's only one healer). Plus we want to give a vulnerary to Sothe and Nolan. So we probably would have to spend 800 gold on a new vulnerary. Aran can just use an herb lying around, since 10 HP is usually enough to let him take another hit (unless he's leveled up and can survive the 2RKO, in which case he's obviously crushing Edward). This is minor though, since Aran's forged lance costs a little more than Edward's.

It's not minor, it's completely dumb. You forgot about the Vulnerary that drops in 1-P, the one in the house in 1-1, and the like 7-8 that Sothe could have stolen up to this point. There are so many vilneraries that you could be SELLING them at this point, not buying new ones. Stop being so lazy when you make arguments, please.

- If Aran kills a cat on the counter, he won't take the second hit (assuming he got doubled). This lets him take another hit from anything and still live.

Unless you're really failing at holding that chokepoint, Aran should be facing fresh cats all the time. Crits are the only valid point you have here.

This also means Aran benefits more from getting Leo's cancel (like anyone is ever going to leave it on that idiot) than anyone else in the map if cats are doubling him, since if he gets cancel on the counter it will stop the cat's second attack, while no one else is getting doubled anyway. Of course it only has like a 10% chance of happening, but that's still twice his chance of getting a crit with a forge, and FIVE OR TEN TIMES his chances of the laguz critting him.

Sorry, Cancel should totally be going on someone like Nolan. I'll grant you that Aran can use this as a stopgap on cats, but there's an opportunity cost associated with it because of Nolan.

- Since we're talking about crits, Edward has more crit, which means he has a greater chance to crit something on enemy phase and get pwned in the face.

I give Eddie a Bronze sword and/or unequip him when I don't want magic crits to happen. Wow, I'm a genius. As I said before, the majority of the damage is not coming form the tank, here.

And if you're a moron and left Edward's wrath on him, tigers put him into wrath range, which boosts his crit by 50. lol.

And here we go again. Smash makes the "hey what if you were a moron" argument, which helps his argument by exactly nothing at all.

If you were complaining about Aran getting critted, Edward is going to die on us because he critted a laguz FAR more often than Aran gets critted by a laguz or Aran accidentally critting a tiger and then getting killed (as pointed out previously, Aran critting a cat isn't going to really bother him).

I can do something about Eddie's crits. I cannot do anything about Aran getting critted.

- Aran can actually take the dracoshield and avoid getting 2RKO'd by most combinations.

That's cool, except getting 3RKO'ed in that north choke is not incredibly useful. At most, it'll save you a turn of healing and allow an uncountered 1-range attack, or a 2-range attack. Or, if you were full, perhaps a 1-range when you get countered.

And now a Dracoshield is gone.

But nah. Aran is obviously garbage in this map. Losing ~50% of your HP from one laguz is obviously the same as losing like 90% of your HP. No wait, he's even WORSE, because he has a MIGHTY 1-2% chance of getting critted, while we're going to ignore that Edward has more crit than Aran and will more often crit a laguz on enemy phase and die because a second one attacked him, which will happen a lot more often than Aran getting a crit OR getting critted. Obviously, none of the above will ever happen.

Aran is pretty garbage, yeah. He's the second worst unit in the level, ahead of Meg. Eddie can tank the north choke with a near-100% chance of success, I just have to use my brain. Aran can't do that no matter how smart I am, because intelligence does not prevent critical hits on enemy attacks.

Obviously, I cannot match the combined wits of Interceptor and dondon. They are far too skilled at debating for me to handle. I bow down to their greatness.

*yawn*

Like who? Leo, who can't even counter, and has even worse HP/def than Edward? Ilyana, whose HP/def is worse still, and also faces those MIGHTY crit rates because she has the same base lck as Aran (and still has more crit, because her thunder tomes have crit, and it's pretty retarded to forge her tomes just for minus crit)? lollaura? lolmicaiaih? lolmeg?

Well, those people all have pretty amazing indirect combat ability when you compare them to Aran with a loljavelin, so since this chapter only requires 3 tanks and we have 4 to pick from, I don't think that Aran is special. They definitely should be considered to be better owing to their uncounterable offense.

I find it laughable that people think Aran is anywhere near the worst character in this map.

k. I find it laughable that you can't admit that a 7-10% chance to fail a chapter without being able to do anything about it is a bad thing.

[...] isn't Naruto and can't do the Kage Bunshin no Jutsu.

.....

[charmander6000]

I think the idea was that even if Eddie took his Vulnerary, if he critkills the guy in front of him, he's screwed, whereas Aran has a non-0% chance to survive if he critkills someone.

The strongest Tiger only does 20 damage which is fully healed from a vulneray. Aran is also screwed if he gets a crit since he gets 2RKO as well. The laguz's hit rate is about 100 on Aran while Edward has about 80 display hit. Even though Edward has a higher crit chance his avoid lowers the chances of being hit twice thus making their survivability after a crit about the same.

[Interceptor]

Ahh yes, that's a good point, thanks for bringing it up. I forgot about it because I was countering smash, and not actually making an argument from the start (smash will not mention Eddie's avoid, because he knows it hurts his case). Eddie has a non-zero chance to avoid hits. It's small (not as good as 80 displayed, unless bio comes into it), but it's there, especially after the boss dies and half the laguz lose the +5 HIT bonus.

[charmander6000]

Yeah I may have overrated Edward's display avoid, I just remember it was in the 80's. Seems like it'll be usually between 85 and 90.

[dondon151]

I don't see what's wrong with leaving Wrath on Eddie for that chapter, as it skyrockets his enemy phase beyond Aran's. This bickering about accidental player phase crit kills (aka 3-6 Zihark syndrome) doesn't really apply to this chapter because I recall like 2 scenarios on the whole map where you have the possibility of facing 2 laguz simultaneously.

Now obviously I didn't follow Int's strategy because I didn't think the bosses would move untransformed, but I'm just saying that on the condition that Eddie retains Wrath, he still beats Aran unless the player is a retard, which is never a legitimate argument anyway.

[Interceptor]

I don't usually consider the possibility of Eddie keeping Wrath, since I usually drop him after 1-5, and also Wrath + Micaiah is really good. But, I guess if there are situations where he can't face a new laguz after Wrath-critting one on Enemy Phase, that'd be a bonus for him I suppose.

[dondon151]

In fact, just to give you a general idea, for a theoretical and very simplified unit that has 50% in all growths, the chances that the unit will have its perfect averages after gaining just 2 levels (+1 to all stats) is less than 1%

I'd never thought I'd hear this coming from you, because this is exactly the same argument that nubs use to support their stance of "averages don't matter." There are 6561 different outcomes after just 2 level ups; the average is the best representation of these 6561 different outcomes.

By the way, there is a giant difference between how we represent stats and how likely one is to die. The chance of one dying to critical hit compounds over the course of the chapter whereas the chance of stats conforming exactly to averages is just a decimal that doesn't really have any implications (other than "but averages don't matter" for those nubs out there).

And this is assuming Edward is level 8, which is 4 levels in 4 chapters, except since according to some genius here (aka dondon) Aran getting anything more than like 1-1.2 level a chapter is BLASPHEMY (Aran will CLEARLY be 16/0 at the end of 1-E, since apparently Aran getting ~1.5 levels a chapter so he can be at a more realistic 19/0 or so by the end of 1-E or something is NOT POSSIBLE in OTHER FEs, so it's ridiculous to assume that's the case for RD, mirite), 1 level a chapter for edward when enemy density is FAR lower than mid/late part 1 chapters is not happening, especially since Edward has HORRIBLE OFFENSE (according to that same genius referenced earlier, offense is the ONLY thing that matters when it comes to kills) because he's borderline doubling.

Eddie has all of 1-P to himself (7 enemies + boss). He faces at least a round of combat from all of them. Assuming that Leo isn't being used, Eddie is entitled to a majority of the kills for the generics. Then, Eddie is also the best choice for killing the boss IIRC because of Wrath crit, so he pretty easily gets almost 2 levels (or at least far greater than 1), which makes 8/0 by 1-4 possible.

Eddie's offense is also the second best on your team (again, Wrath crits) once Nolan joins. Unless you're implying that Nolan solos 1-1 (which he can't do), Eddie also sees action here.

You obviously didn't read my previous points about EXP gain in other FEs relative to FE10.

still stretching it using our aforementioned genius' irrefutable logic). 20.7 HP, 5.7 def.

I'm flattered that you can't resist taking potshots at me, but you neither seem to understand my logic nor do you apply it correctly. Actually, you don't seem to understand logic at all, since you're always so keen on applying it to a similar scenario that is just different enough to render that logic void.

[Progenitus]

Is there a reason why Edward can not use a vulnerary? It's unfavourable to attack on player phase unless the hit gets a kill and it's not like Edward will only face Tiger attacks. Sure the shop doesn't sell them yet, but you do come with four of them plus whatever Sothe has stolen and including Meg you have five frontliners so you should have enough.

The problem is supply. Does anyone even read my posts anymore?

speaking of gold, Edward is more liekly forced to use a vulnerary whenever he self-heals (same reason as Micaiah sacrificing; using an herb isn't enough). However, we only have 32 uses from what our PCs joined with, and we probably burned through a lot in the first four chapters (the first two don't even have a dedicated healer, and even after we do, Laura's only one healer). Plus we want to give a vulnerary to Sothe and Nolan. So we probably would have to spend 800 gold on a new vulnerary. Aran can just use an herb lying around, since 10 HP is usually enough to let him take another hit (unless he's leveled up and can survive the 2RKO, in which case he's obviously crushing Edward). This is minor though, since Aran's forged lance costs a little more than Edward's.

And if the shop doesn't even sell them in 1-4, it makes it even WORSE.

[Interceptor]

The problem is supply. Does anyone even read my posts anymore?

People read your posts more closely than you read them yourself. There are at least five vulneraries, and as many as thirteen of them.

Player-equipped: Eddie, Nolan, Aran, Meg

In a house: 1-1

Stolen: eight guys from 1-1 to 1-3

That changes the count from "32" to "somewhere between 40 and 104".

addendum, I said in error that Pugo drops his, but it doesn't change anything, really.

And if the shop doesn't even sell them in 1-4, it makes it even WORSE.

It's worth noting that the fact that you didn't realize that probably suggests that you've never been in a situation where you had vulnerary problems in 1-4.

[Florete]

The problem is supply. Does anyone even read my posts anymore?

speaking of gold, Edward is more liekly forced to use a vulnerary whenever he self-heals (same reason as Micaiah sacrificing; using an herb isn't enough). However, we only have 32 uses from what our PCs joined with, and we probably burned through a lot in the first four chapters (the first two don't even have a dedicated healer, and even after we do, Laura's only one healer). Plus we want to give a vulnerary to Sothe and Nolan. So we probably would have to spend 800 gold on a new vulnerary. Aran can just use an herb lying around, since 10 HP is usually enough to let him take another hit (unless he's leveled up and can survive the 2RKO, in which case he's obviously crushing Edward). This is minor though, since Aran's forged lance costs a little more than Edward's.

And if the shop doesn't even sell them in 1-4, it makes it even WORSE.

Did you block Interceptor or something? Here, I'll quote him for you.

Silly rabbit, I'm just going to sell Kard, Elthunder, and Guard, which gives me another ~2400g to do whatever I want.

It's not minor, it's completely dumb. You forgot about the Vulnerary that drops in 1-P, the one in the house in 1-1, and the like 7-8 that Sothe could have stolen up to this point. There are so many vilneraries that you could be SELLING them at this point, not buying new ones. Stop being so lazy when you make arguments, please.

EDIT: Damn, he ninja'd me.

Edited July 17, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[Progenitus]

BTW, before anyone actually bites Inty-chan's little 1-4 story (I'm seriosuly not even going to bother with his sanaki crap, or even the rest of his aran crap; NOLAN USES CANCEL BETTER EVEN THOUGH ARAN WITH CANCEL MIGHT ACTAULLY AVOID THE SECOND CAT ATTACK. OH BUT THERE'S AN "OPPORTUNITY" COST, EXCEPT ARAN BEING ABLE TO USE CANCEL BETTER THAN EDWARD IS STILL AN OBVIOUS ADVANTAGE. or "EDWARD CAN USE BRONZE SWORD/NO WEAPON AT ALL, BUT WAIT, IF HE'S DOING SHIT DAMAGE, BLASTING THE LAGUZ WITH MICAIAH/ILYANA MIGHT NOT EVEN WORK, SINCE MICAIAH DOESN'T HAVE 100% CRIT EVEN WITH WRATH AND ILYANA HAS EVEN LESS, SO WE MIGHT TAKE TWO TURNS TO KILL THIS NUB WHEN ARAN DOES MORE DAMAGE AND DEFINITELY WILL TAKE JUST 1". or "SOTHE CAN STEAL VULNERARIES. BUT WAIT, "OPTIMUM" STRATEGY INVOLVES HIM ATTACKING ENEMIES, NOT STEALING FROM THEM, SINCE SOTHE IS OBVIOUSLY GOING TO SOLO THE MAP BECAUSE THAT'S THE ABSOLUTE FASTEST WAY TO BEAT THE CHAPTER RITE").

He brings up ONE extremely specific strategy that makes Aran obsolete. With any other strategy Aran is >>>>>> Edward

The problem with Int's idea is that it suggests that we basically use the same strategy to beat every single chapter ever (it's a huge double standard to assume that we have flexibility in our strategies for every chapter other than certain ones he wants), which basically means we use the exact same team over and over again to beat the game. We're obviously using the same strategy to beat a certain chapter, so we're obviously going to use the same strategy to beat every other chapter in the game. Oh wow, now tier lists are pointless. I mean, if using Aran in 1-4 makes you go slower than using the "optimum" strategy to beat 1-4, then why even bother trying to use people not in the top tiers, like Boyd or Neph, because they make you go slower than using the "optimum" team?

Of course at this point, I expect someone to label my argument as a strawman without even proving why, and then start flaming me or something.

[Narga_Rocks]

Since Int covered most things, I'll mostly just be responding to where Smash is calling me an idiot, or some things Int ignored but I feel like responding to anyway. And some things where I'm just reiterating Int's points because they are rather major. Which really turns into everything because smash likes insults that much.

btw narga, several more reasons why Aran is still better than Edward in 1-4 other than "he actually has a non-0 chance of surviving shit",

Let's see, Aran's got a non-zero chance of getting to 3RKO when he isn't critted, Edward's got a 0% chance of being crit blicked. So Aran will always have a chance of ending our run earlier. Edward is safe. Even if Aran pulls off his 35% level, he'll still have a chance of ending our run early.

since that apparently doesn't impress you (even though we deal with percentages that happen about just as often, such as units actually having their average stats at some 20 levels down the line. In fact, just to give you a general idea, for a theoretical and very simplified unit that has 50% in all growths, the chances that the unit will have its perfect averages after gaining just 2 levels (+1 to all stats) is less than 1%).

Lots of time to look into that. Lots of time for certain characters to be getting bexp (when they have like 10 exp to go) after they max stuff. Being 2 points lower than a total (aside from speed) doesn't matter nearly as much in part 4 as it does here. Even if a character is a bit slow, they just aren't doubling as much so need other people to help out. Generally, being a bit under doesn't matter as much there as when being under average takes away your only advantage over other characters.

I thought losing 50% of your HP vs 90% of your HP made the winner really obvious,

Why should it? we have vulneraries. Heal the idiots. At least Ed can always be healed, Aran might be dead.

but I forgot, I'm talking to the person who thinks Astrid doing like 30% of an enemy's HP is better than Lyre doing 50% of an enemy's HP.

Right, because to you comparing two characters always boils down to pulling one detail out of dozens in a comparison when that one detail is in favour of your pick.

Oh look, Astrid never takes counters and can attack every single player phase, rather than half of them due to grassing. Oh look, Astrid is completely better than Lyre!

Things are more complex than one single point. There are other advantages for Astrid as well, and others for Lyre, but that was all dealt with many pages ago. I shouldn't be surprised that you still ignore everything that hurts your case, though.

- Micaiah with Sacrifice will generally heal Aran fully (or almost fully) if he got hit. She won't if it was someone like Edward.

Aren't you in favour of giving Micaiah wrath? As int said, one sacrifice on Ed and she's probably in wrath range. Besides, Micaiah has uncountered player phases and Aran keeps getting countered if he isn't KOing what he's attacking. Micaiah gets free attacks. Why are we wasting Micaiah's player phase on Aran? In fact, we are wasting all Micaiah's player phases. She's basically alternating between taking a vulnerary and sacrificing on Aran ever turn. When is she attacking these 2 res losers? There's an 8 point def/res gap, and Aran starts at 10 str, he's looking at 23 mt with a +1 str on his level on top of everything else he needs, and a +5 mt forge that burned through a lot of our money. Micaiah picks up thani and at base level has 15 mt, equaling Aran's damage output and pulling 126 hit.

Plus to get 100% hit on everything he needs a hit boost on the forge. An 85 hit lance gives Aran 115 hit at base level, which is less than Micaiah's hit at her base level. He gets a pretty good hit growth rate, but he's still looking at ~117 with a level. Seems to me wasting Micaiah's player phases to heal Aran every other turn is a worse idea than letting Edward eat vulneraries while Micaiah attacks uncountered for the damage that Aran does countered. Throw on top of that she can't even heal him every turn anyway so he's scarfing a few vulneraries or taking Laura's healing away from Nolan, and her damage output is better than his.

At the least, he needs +5mt and +10 hit to tie base level Micaiah's non-wrath offensive prowess. Give Micaiah a few levels and he is doing less damage and attacking on player phase less often than she could have been.

Like, 8/0 Edward. 22-23 HP, 6-7 def. If a 26 att tiger attacks him, he drops down to like 3 HP. Micaiah sacrifices, but she might only have like 16-17 HP because she's a nub and her HP is horrible, so he goes up to like 18 or something. And then the tiger just kills him off (not even a 26 att one; a 24 att one can do the job too). In fact Laura with heal might not be enough, especially if Edward got def screwed.

And Micaiah can now wrath, yay.

And this is assuming Edward is level 8, which is 4 levels in 4 chapters, except since according to some genius here (aka dondon) Aran getting anything more than like 1-1.2 level a chapter is BLASPHEMY (Aran will CLEARLY be 16/0 at the end of 1-E, since apparently Aran getting ~1.5 levels a chapter so he can be at a more realistic 19/0 or so by the end of 1-E or something is NOT POSSIBLE in OTHER FEs, so it's ridiculous to assume that's the case for RD, mirite), 1 level a chapter for edward when enemy density is FAR lower than mid/late part 1 chapters is not happening,

Let's see, the only wall in 1-P, a couple of situations in 1-1 where we need 2, turns in which Ed needs to kill because there are that many enemies and we don't want Sothe to kill everything in 1-2 and 1-3. Not raising Volug's strike, 4 tier 1s (Micaiah, Jill, Nolan, Aran/Ilyana), having Sothe/Taur weaken things to let others kill, same deal in other chapters, Nailah killing thieves and having other enemies suicide into her, various things like that. No, it's completely the same situation and Dondon's words about Aran not averaging over 1.5 levels per chapter can certainly be applied here.

Basically, we have fewer characters and fewer enemies, and so all our characters in 1-P, 1-1, 1-2 have a role, and so giving Ed 1 level per chapter is actually pretty easy here. And later, just not more than 1 per chapter there.

especially since Edward has HORRIBLE OFFENSE (according to that same genius referenced earlier, offense is the ONLY thing that matters when it comes to kills) because he's borderline doubling. Like, 50-60ish% chance of doubling the lower end enemies. But since apparently we don't give a shit that Aran has like a 50+% chance of actually being able to take 2 rounds from enemies in 1-4 or 3-6, we equally shouldn't give a shit that Edward has that chance of doubling. And it's not like Edward doubling is impressive anyway, since his att is balls (4-5HKOing), and if he uses steel sword he's not doubling anyway.

Um, do you lack memory or reading comprehension skills? 50+%? He's got 35% on most combinations, 0% on some, and >50% on very rare combinations. Seriously, there's 5 cats in the whole place and they are mostly spread out, the only way to face 2 at once is in the south on turn 2, or something. The other 50+ combo is 24 mt tiger + cat. Think, the reinforcements are two sets of 26mt tiger + cat. So they are out. There are 2 cats that go together near the beginning. So you are looking at one remaining cat that may or may not be near a 24 mt tiger. Maximum 2 situations in which he is at >50% chance of 3RKO. And even in those situation a crit still blicks him.

As for the rest, 35% or 0%, which is completely incomparable to Edwards chance of doubling. Besides, since the game even tells you to have Micaiah start off the enemies, he kills lots. Now, I let Ed eat vulneraries most of 1-P because I focus kills on Micaiah, but since you don't like raising Micaiah, then you might as well get a few kills for Ed there. Easy 4 levels by 1-4. At which point with a support he is likely far over 50% to get what he needs to survive, but I'd rather not do another set of calculations for you to ignore completely.

Also, 1-1 is just one long chokepoint, and since apparently Aran in 1-3 is made obsolete because Nolan and Sothe exist and apparently we spend all day in 1-3 sitting at a 2-man chokepoint and we don't even think of doing things with Sothe like having him jump out of the chokepoint so he can take out an annoying enemy like an archer and have Aran sitting at the chokepoint instead, Nolan obviously makes Edward completely pointless in 1-1.

Um, did you ever notice that on the first turn you need a choke two wide to prevent Micaiah and Leo from getting attacked? And ditto by around turn 3 where Nolan blocks the enemies in the west and Ed the north, or vice versa? Who ever said all day at the 2-man chokepoint in 1-3? It's like 1 turn on the way down southwest to actually recruit Aran. After he gets recruited, they move down, the boss comes, Micaiah thani-bombs it after Sothe steals what the guy has, we move on. Aran never really makes use of his blocking.

And he's obviously garbage in 1-3, since he's basically worse than Aran, and Aran was made pointless because of Nolan/Sothe, so I don't even want to imagine what Edward's like.

Ed has use on turn 1 killing the fighter on the right, since otherwise someone better sent south west must, than he's doing pretty much the same thing Aran is doing once we recruit him, namely player phase clearing so we can actually get to the end on time. Never said Aran was pointless, just his #HKO is almost pointless. He needs to attack too. Ed and Aran are basically equal there, except Aran can do a bit more damage so once in a while it'll make a difference.

So let's use a slightly more realistic level, shall we? Something like 6/0 Edward. Even though that's still a bit high (since he's pretty much out for 1-1 and 1-3, that's 2 levels in 2 chapters, still stretching it using our aforementioned genius' irrefutable logic). 20.7 HP, 5.7 def.

You know, trying to take some other person's logic and applying it incorrectly doesn't really work.

Oops, 26 att tigers now might actually OHKO, and 24 att tigers is basically the same as 8/0 Edward vs 26 att tigers.

sry edward, ur garbage. gtfo.

So? At the beginning of the chapter we can look at his hp/def/support and see if he can survive, then apply that knowledge in a non-retarded way. Can't do that with Aran and use him, since looking at a non-zero chance to get blicked generally involves making him not be attacked/countered if we can help it.

Aran at BASE level loses 15 HP from a 26 att tiger, which means Micaiah with Sacrifice will definitely let him take another hit.

And now Micaiah didn't attack on that player phase, while Aran did. Aran did less damage than she would have. And she needs to take a vulnerary to heal him again. If we actually play intelligently, and have Micaiah attack all the time, that means he gets a bit better heal than Edward on exactly one turn, big deal. It will only actually matter depending on the enemy coming and if Ed had to vulnerary or not afterwards.

"but edward supports"

like who? Nolan? Nolan doesn't want Light. If he wanted a temporary support until Zihark/Volug came he'd take Leo, since Leo gives att. Plus if Edward's supposed to be frontlining in 1-4, Nolan and Edward will be at different chokepoints anyway. Edward isn't going to get Leo, since the +def might actually help Nolan (he's also losing ~50% of his HP from tigers), while Edward loses like 90% of his HP so +1 def isn't helping him anyway. Laura probably wasn't standing next to Edward long enough.

Int dealt with that.

- Aran hits harder than Edward.

Edward has less str than Aran like forever, and swords have less mt than lances, and won't double anything except maybe the 10 AS tigers, except there's only like 4 of them out of the 15 laguz so Aran wins against more enemies than Edward, plus he has to be 7/0 just to average 13.8 AS, and he only has 14+ AS ~65% of the time according to this

http://www.feplanet.net/index.php?fep=game...;id=2&key=5

so yeah, w/e, since of course Aran's 50+% chance of surviving 2 rounds from most combinations wasn't worth anything, who cares. Since the laguz are so godly you're lucky if you're 3HKOing, every point of damage counts.

Again with the bad memory problem. 35% chance of having the stats that actually matter. Seriously, most combinations? Did you even read where I calculated the probability of even facing the right combinations to get 50+? 65% is far far better than 35%. If Aran had a 70% chance to be 3RKOd by all those combinations, I'd care. At 35%, and still having a chance of being ORKOd anyway? Not likely.

As for damage, gravy isn't as important as meat, or something like that. Read what Int said.

It's time for another non-sequitur.

Here's something I had in a debate between Meg vs Gareth, ...

btw, if someone like Int wants to complain about Ilyana using elthunder instead of a forge just to try and dodge the entire point of this example, we actually only have ~8k gold for this chapter (5k starting, 3k from meg's fortune). Even if we sell off things we won't be using, like Micaiah's Light tome (we have thani), that still pushes it to like 9k. Since we want several forges, plus Sothe's beast killer, and like a hand axe for Nolan, among a few other things, we might not have enough gold to get Ilyana a forge that's significantly better than Elthunder, especially since giving Ilyana a forge is like at the bottom of our list of priorities. And I mean significantly, since even in this example her thunder tome would need +4 mt to let Meg kill, and Meg has more str than Edward. In fact, even a +5 mt thunder tome might not let Edward kill, since Edward's that bad.

Lessee, Ilyana pulls really bad hit with her thunder. When I'm chipping, I'd like to know my killing unit will actually be able to pull a kill. +3 mt and +15 hit is generally a huge help and not too expensive, and means Soren will have a +18 mt weapon against dragonmasters in 3-2 that I didn't have to waste GM money on. He could have +15 with elthunder, sure, but then either Ilyana is carrying it or we are buying it in 3-2, and either way it loses hit by 20 to the forged thunder I just created. Further, she has more important offence in this chapter simply because she has all that attacking on player phase. Forge for Nolan and Ilyana is enough for this chapter, the rest can be forged when we get more money and coins.

speaking of gold, Edward is more liekly forced to use a vulnerary whenever he self-heals (same reason as Micaiah sacrificing; using an herb isn't enough). However, we only have 32 uses from what our PCs joined with, and we probably burned through a lot in the first four chapters (the first two don't even have a dedicated healer, and even after we do, Laura's only one healer). Plus we want to give a vulnerary to Sothe and Nolan. So we probably would have to spend 800 gold on a new vulnerary. Aran can just use an herb lying around, since 10 HP is usually enough to let him take another hit (unless he's leveled up and can survive the 2RKO, in which case he's obviously crushing Edward). This is minor though, since Aran's forged lance costs a little more than Edward's.

Yeah, a lot more. Aran also needs more hit on his forge than Edward does. Like, +10 more. Generally Ed's might have +10 hit or something to ensure hits, Aran's needs +20. Unless we like missing.

- If Aran kills a cat on the counter, he won't take the second hit (assuming he got doubled). This lets him take another hit from anything and still live.

As int said, why is Aran doing this? Tank on enemy phase, vulnerary on player phase while other people kill stuff. There should not be damaged stuff going around on enemy phase anyway.

This can happen more often than you think, since cats only have ~35 HP, 8 def, which means base level Aran with a max mt iron lance does 14 damage. And he might crit too, since laguz do have fail lck. Though, he only has like 5 crit on them (you can forge more crit, though you probably won't have the money in this chapter), so critting won't happen often, but apparently Aran's 1-2% chance of getting critted is SO HIGH, 5 crit goes off waaaaaay more often.

Um, you do understand the difference between offence and defence, right? A 5% chance of killing something means we plan on the crit not working, but if it does then we go yay, thanks for helping and can now have somebody else do something else. Though, depending on the plan, it can also mean another character twiddles his/her thumbs and doesn't get to do anything. If the crit doesn't happen, we continue on with the plan like we knew we'd have to 95% of the time, and we barely notice.

Comparatively, a 1-2% chance of getting blicked means we go waah waah, rng screwage, throw our controller, waltz up to the wii because we just threw the controller and now need to get up to reset, reset, then start over from the beginning. Well, some of us are more mature than that, but every once in a while I have a bad day, and I'm sure others do to (though mine doesn't involve throwing, just whining). Or we use Edward and there will be less controller throwing.

Edward? lol. Edward's a nub. Cats 2HKO him until he's like level 9 or 10. Killing them on the counter is actually bad for him.

- Since we're talking about crits, Edward has more crit, which means he has a greater chance to crit something on enemy phase and get pwned in the face.

Edward has 10 base crit (since myrms get an innate +5, and he has 11 skl), while Aran has 6 (12 base skl). Since the laguz have fail lck, Edward has 8-9 crit on them while Aran has 4-5. So Edward's chances of critting are like twice Aran's. And if you're a moron and left Edward's wrath on him, tigers put him into wrath range, which boosts his crit by 50. lol. If you were complaining about Aran getting critted, Edward is going to die on us because he critted a laguz FAR more often than Aran gets critted by a laguz or Aran accidentally critting a tiger and then getting killed (as pointed out previously, Aran critting a cat isn't going to really bother him).

This of course means that occasionally edward will do more damage than Aran on player phase because of more crit, but the whole argument right now is just avoiding random chances to die, while the earlier point mentioned about damage is reliability. In terms of player phase damage, Aran is much more reliable than Edward when it comes to requiring fewer PCs/luck/whatever to kill the enemy in front of him. In terms of enemy phase survival, Aran is still much more reliable even with his 1-2% chances of getting critted by the laguz. So before you start screaming, this isn't a double standard at all.

How is Edward killing them? He has a +4 forge, because +5 is expensive, or he doesn't even have a forge because we know he doesn't need one this chapter and we have limited funds. He's pulling 19 mt, maybe 20, with a forge, or more likely he's pulling 18 or 19 with a steel, and if he somehow pulled off lots of str and has 20 mt with a steel, give him an iron. You may have noticed (ha, as if you looked) that Ed with a crit is not killing these cats. You may have also noticed that 16 mt will not kill a tiger even on a double crit, so iron will be good. If Ed fluked a +4 str in his 4 levels and got 11 str, then we give him a bronze. Regardless, he is not killing a fresh enemy on a counter, and we kill stuff on player phase because we actually have Micaiah able to attack since she isn't wasting her turns vulnerarying and sacrificing.

And don't you mean Aran getting critted by a cat? Because without speed he's looking at cats doubling him, and they are pulling a 2% crit on him, meaning if he gets attacked by a cat, kills it (before the counter, obviously), then gets attacked by another cat, it has a ~4% chance of killing Aran. Now, you might not mind having to reset in order to make your character look good, but some people don't actually like resetting. Aran needs a +3 mt on his lance to pull the 20mt necessary to blick a cat on a crit. Assuming you want him hitting all the time, he's using his +15 hit lance, which means unless you want his offence to not be as good later he also has a +3 mt on it. I realize that he's got a low chance of critting something and have something else follow it up with a crit, considering we have to multiply that 4% by Aran's chance of critting, but if you are going to act like Ed has a chance of getting himself killed, then I'm going to point out that unlike Ed, Aran actually can get himself killed.

How is Aran more survivable? Ed cannot get himself killed by critting, Ed's facing exactly the enemies that won't OHKO him, and while Aran can be thrown against two enemies instead of just one (if he pulls off the 35% chance of hp+def and is facing somewhat rare combinations), we aren't trying to do that with Ed and it would just increase Aran's chance of getting blicked.

When we play with Ed properly, he isn't getting himself killed. Do the same thing with Aran, he could end our 1-4 prematurely.

This also means Aran benefits more from getting Leo's cancel (like anyone is ever going to leave it on that idiot) than anyone else in the map if cats are doubling him, since if he gets cancel on the counter it will stop the cat's second attack, while no one else is getting doubled anyway. Of course it only has like a 10% chance of happening, but that's still twice his chance of getting a crit with a forge, and FIVE OR TEN TIMES his chances of the laguz critting him.

Or we can give it to Nolan, who actually needs to do stuff on player phase.

- Aran can actually take the dracoshield and avoid getting 2RKO'd by most combinations.

At base level, the shield means the 24 att tigers 3HKO, the cats 5HKO (that means a crit won't let him get one rounded. They would need double crits), and the 26 att tigers now do 13 damage, which means a +HP and def from a level up will now stop him from getting 2HKO'd. Edward? Well, it helps him avoid getting 2HKO'd by cats. The tigers still pwn him in the face, where a cat + tiger will still kill him. lol. Not to mention the shield helps him in every future chapter, while Edward's still probably getting 2HKO'd, but this is strictly a 1-4 comparison, so the rapage will have to stop there.

You know, I'll never understand why you'd want to waste a draco on Aran. By 1-E as you love pointing out, he's looking at huge #HKOs, and in part 3 he's got a pretty good chance of not needing it, and in part 4 we aren't using it. You get far more use on just about anyone else. I wouldn't give one to Edward either, but being more worthy of a draco than Ed means squat when there are dozens that have more use from it.

I know these are just summaries of stuff, but I'll respond anyway.

So...

Aran has his 50% or whatever chance to avoid getting 2RKO'd by most combinations just from leveling up. edward's is like 0, cause he's a nub and tanks with his pants off.

Again? 35%, say it with me now, t-h-i-r-t-y-f-i-v-e-p-e-r-c-e-n-t. Every combination except two that will come up at most twice. The other turns, it is 35% or 0%. And he'll still be looking at a chance to get critblicked that Ed never will.

Aran can be fully healed with Micaiah's sacrifice, or at least heal enough HP to take another hit from anything. Edward healed by Sacrifice may still die anyway, since he's a nub and loses like 20 HP when a tiger hits him. This might even apply with Laura using heal.

Heard of Mend? Int pointed it out, and you haven't mentioned it since, but since it is such an oversight I want to bring it up again.

Aran does more damage, which means more combinations of PCs can help him kill, or just fewer potshotters to attack with him.

Oh well, doesn't need it anyway.

Aran killing cats on a counter (be it he just finished it off, or got a crit, or even just activated cancel) means he can take a second attack from basically anything.

And he might die. Oh well, reset.

Edward, on the other hand, has more crit than Aran, which means he's more likely to crit on the counter, and die on us because another laguz runs up to finish him off, because Edward's a nub and gets 2HKO'd by everything.

Except Ed can't kill even with a crit, or a double on a tiger if you are doing it right.

Aran benefits from a dracoshield far more than Edward does, since Aran getting the dracoshield is even more effective than getting an HP + def level up. Edward with the shield will only avoid getting 2 rounded if two cats attack him, and nothing else.

Right, because giving it to Nolan or Jill so they can benefit greatly for the rest of the game is certainly not better than fixing Aran's issues in 1-4 and 3-6 and no other chapter.

But nah. Aran is obviously garbage in this map. Losing ~50% of your HP from one laguz is obviously the same as losing like 90% of your HP. No wait, he's even WORSE, because he has a MIGHTY 1-2% chance of getting critted, while we're going to ignore that Edward has more crit than Aran and will more often crit a laguz on enemy phase and die because a second one attacked him, which will happen a lot more often than Aran getting a crit OR getting critted. Obviously, none of the above will ever happen. Obviously, I cannot match the combined wits of Interceptor and dondon. They are far too skilled at debating for me to handle. I bow down to their greatness.

Yeah, it would be so much trouble to actually look at HM enemy stats before saying stupid things. Keep up the good work of not looking at enemy stats and saying stuff that isn't true.

Ed won't get himself killed, Aran could.

"but why compare edward u can use someone else"

Like who? Leo, who can't even counter, and has even worse HP/def than Edward? Ilyana, whose HP/def is worse still, and also faces those MIGHTY crit rates because she has the same base lck as Aran (and still has more crit, because her thunder tomes have crit, and it's pretty retarded to forge her tomes just for minus crit)? lollaura? lolmicaiaih? lolmeg?

I find it laughable that people think Aran is anywhere near the worst character in this map.

As int said, he beats meg, that's it. The others can attack indirectly with pretty good hit, at least better than Mr. Javelin. We need 3 tanks and have 4 to choose from, and only one of them can be critblicked, and that's Aran.

"but he's worse than sothe"

Actually, Sothe should be going around gathering the hidden items and chests because this chapter is gay and thought it'd be funny to put a 10 turn limit for max BEXP and then put items in all four corners of the map, so he's not actually sitting at a chokepoint, he's usually in front of it. Props to him if he kills the laguz stupid enough to attack him though.

"but he's worse than nolan"

ONE unit, and unfortunately we have more than one chokepoint, and Nolan isn't Naruto and can't do the Kage Bunshin no Jutsu.

Nolan goes southeast, Sothe southwest, or the other way. There is a coin to the southeast, but I'd rather let meg try a few times, and Nolan can even take a shot as he's swinging east. Sothe goes after the beastfoe on his way north and gets the chest, then runs east and gets to the chest by the time your other people are getting to the northeast anyway. No issues.

[Interceptor]

I am not going to put that nausea-inducing all-caps text in quotes. I'm just going to respond without context.

I don't appreciate your "little 1-4 story" label. I think that it's probably the most efficient way for you to spend your first two turns in this chapter, no matter what your team is ultimately going to look like. You are free to do whatever you want, but alternative strategies are just going to put Aran at the same risk, since unless you gum things to death for him or attack at 2-range, he's taking crit risks no matter what. You could, for example, send Aran south with Nolan/Sothe and perhaps send Leo with them, and have Aran take kills or something. Or Leo. Or Meg. Or whomever you are traning.

You suggest that my posts are "crap", and refuse to respond to them, but I thin kthat the truth of the matter is that you don't actually have an answer to my arguments in total.

I already conceded that Aran is better than Eddie with Cancel because of the narrow cat situation. But Nolan is probably better than the both of them.

It's not necessary to give Eddie only "bronze or no weapon", as there is a range of possible choices. I could, for example, give him a weapon that he's 4HKO with on a fresh enemy that he doesn't double, such as a normal Steel sword on a tiger. The point was that you can situationally mitigate his crit-chance "problem".

WRT to Sothe stealing vulneraries, they are just candy. You have two Herbs and 5 Vulneraries to work with already. If you don't get the oportunity to get one, no big deal. If you steal one anyway, please be my guest and assign some small negative.

The problem with Int's idea is that it suggests that we basically use the same strategy to beat every single chapter ever (it's a huge double standard to assume that we have flexibility in our strategies for every chapter other than certain ones he wants), which basically means we use the exact same team over and over again to beat the game. We're obviously using the same strategy to beat a certain chapter, so we're obviously going to use the same strategy to beat every other chapter in the game. Oh wow, now tier lists are pointless. I mean, if using Aran in 1-4 makes you go slower than using the "optimum" strategy to beat 1-4, then why even bother trying to use people not in the top tiers, like Boyd or Neph, because they make you go slower than using the "optimum" team?

The list of possible strategies in Part 1 does not really expand until around 1-6-1. Until that point, you don't really have enough people, and stats on level-ups have not diverged to the extent that people are floating to the top. There is a huge difference to laying out a strategy for 1-P where your choices are small, as opposed to one for 4-E-5, where your team could be anything. 1-4 on that scale is pretty close to 1-P in terms of your options.

By the way, in a situation where we actually DO use optimum play to tier, obviously it'd still be possible to tier less-optimal people by just looking at how much they slow you down, right? I'm not endorsing it, just pointing out that it would be possible.

[Narga_Rocks]

The problem with Int's idea is that it suggests that we basically use the same strategy to beat every single chapter ever (it's a huge double standard to assume that we have flexibility in our strategies for every chapter other than certain ones he wants), which basically means we use the exact same team over and over again to beat the game. We're obviously using the same strategy to beat a certain chapter, so we're obviously going to use the same strategy to beat every other chapter in the game. Oh wow, now tier lists are pointless. I mean, if using Aran in 1-4 makes you go slower than using the "optimum" strategy to beat 1-4, then why even bother trying to use people not in the top tiers, like Boyd or Neph, because they make you go slower than using the "optimum" team?

Double standards ftw, yay!

Let's see, smash takes int's 1-4 proposal, uses faulty logic to extend that to the rest of the game and uses it as if it is the logical conclusion of the initial assumption. Then takes that (not so) logical conclusion and states that tier lists are now pointless since you have to the use the optimum strategy always. Ignoring that even if his (not so) logical conclusion was in fact logical we could still tier by how much these other people slow us down.

Int takes the initial assumption, that 3-6 and 3-12 need to be beaten as quickly as possible, extends it to the rest of the game (with faultless logic, btw) and states the logical conclusion of the idea. Smash calls int an idiot for that.

Let's see what int does and compare it to what smash did:

Int takes an initial assumption.

check. so did smash.

Int takes that initial assumption to its logical conclusion.

so did smash, well, he took it to its illogical conclusion but the intent was the same. (Int said why smash's conclusion was illogical)

Int then used the logical conclusion to state how we need to look at things differently.

Well, smash said tier lists are pointless, but if he took the (il)logical conclusion and analyzed what it means, he could have seen that we can still make tier lists, just that we have to look from a different angle.

Well, I guess it is quite a bit worse than a double standard, really, but oh well.

(was a bit rushed because I had to go pull weeds after the post, so neglected to say this)

Then there is the huge contrast between how the two react to someone else doing similar things.

Int:

Calmly and politely explained smash's logic flaw between initial assumption and conclusion.

Then went a step further and pointed out how even if smash's conclusion was the logical conclusion (namely to always use optimal solutions everywhere), there is still a way to tier by how much the less optimal people slow us down.

Smash:

flaming, oh the flaming. I can still see the burning every time I close my eyes. The horror, the horror.

Also, never took a moment to consider what the speedrunning would do to the tier list, or talk about how it would work.

Edited July 18, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[cheetah7071]

The conversation seems to have died, so how about Pelleas vs Lehran? I think it's sort of silly Lehran is above him. Pelleas basically only needs a crown to have 7 times Lehran's staff utility (7 chapters vs 1). He's basically useless without a crown, but even without one, being a 2-hit meatshield (remember, no survival rank) is about as good as Lehran when Micaiah can easily have SS staves by this point (9 uses of restore in 4-E-1 plus running through a physic in 4-E2, 3, and 4). Thus, Pelleas > Lehran

[charmander6000]

I'm not too sure about Pelleas/Lehran. Lehran is basically immortal for the one chapter and he can easily have a blessed light tome from Sanaki (or Micaiah) and can deal a lot of damage to the auras. He also does not take a unit slot. For Pelleas Master Crowns are wanted by many units and he is usually outclassed by the other mages and Elincia during endgame since they can also attack if nothing else needs healing. Also he needs to take a unit slot during endgame.

Edited July 19, 2009 by charmander6000

[-Cynthia-]

I'm not too sure about Pelleas/Lehran. Lehran is basically immortal for the one chapter and he can easily have a blessed light tome from Sanaki (or Micaiah) and can deal a lot of damage to the auras. He also does not take a unit slot. For Pelleas Master Crowns are wanted by many units and he is usually outclassed by the other mages and Elincia during endgame since they can also attack if nothing else needs healing. Also he needs to take a unit slot during endgame.

Yeah, I think taking up a slot in 4-E is too much of a negative. Although I think the competition for a Crown by this point is overrated, most of your units should be promoted before Part 4 and we get a Crown in 4-1(?).

[grandjackal]

Seriously, why isn't Pelleas in bottom? Staffs can't be the only thing saving him from it...Especially since he needs a crown just to do that.

[Mekkah]

Paperblade made a pretty good point a few pages back about why 4-E slots aren't as competed for, concerning the problems laguz royals have (mostly lack of 2-range, and some have atk issues, while Giffca also has that laguz gem), and the fact that there's not _that_ many other candidates, mostly ones that had to be trained up like Nephenee. Though this was mostly about Stefan/Volke and not about people who do nothing but healspam, which is lower on a hypothetical 4-E tier list in my book.

[grandjackal]

Does this excuse him from the fact he needs a master crown to do what Oliver already can do? We aren't just gonna throw Pelleas into endgame for no damn reason.

[-Cynthia-]

Does this excuse him from the fact he needs a master crown to do what Oliver already can do? We aren't just gonna throw Pelleas into endgame for no damn reason.

It's still arguably more useful than what the people below him are doing. Really, Pelleas is only above Kyza/Lethe and Meg/Astrid/Fiona/Lyre, there isn't much lower he can go. And I don't think we're going to throw any of the Low or below characters into Endgame period, but we have to assume use.

I think that 2 range in 4-E is really overrated. The point if 4-E(4) and 4-E(5) isn't to kill all the spirits, it's killing Sephiran/auras. The only place it's really handy is 4-E(3), although most ranged weapons can't ORKO Dragons anyway.

[charmander6000]

Yeah, I think taking up a slot in 4-E is too much of a negative. Although I think the competition for a Crown by this point is overrated, most of your units should be promoted before Part 4 and we get a Crown in 4-1(?).

Well by part 4 we have the entire DB, the entire CRK, maybe Tanith, Rolf, Ilyana, maybe Rhys and Lucia. The 4-P crown exists only in the japanese version (according to Serenes) so what they are fighting for are crowns from 3-3, 6, 9, 11 and 12. 3-3 is going to Gatrie, 3-9 may go to Geoffrey or a GM/CRK in 3-11, same with the 3-11 crown. The 3-6 and 3-12 crown could have been used on a DB before part 4 (Tauroneo or someone else during 3-13)

Edited July 19, 2009 by charmander6000

[Florete]

Seriously, why isn't Pelleas in bottom? Staffs can't be the only thing saving him from it...Especially since he needs a crown just to do that.

The characters in Bottom need a hell of a lot more than a Crown to be anything decent. At least with that one thing (or a certain number of kill feeds, I guess) Pelleas can make himself useful.

Also, I do believe that if one can get Pelleas to 20/1 by sometime in 4-5 he'll actually be a decent combat unit. Nothing special, but > bottom tier.

Paperblade made a pretty good point a few pages back about why 4-E slots aren't as competed for, concerning the problems laguz royals have (mostly lack of 2-range, and some have atk issues, while Giffca also has that laguz gem), and the fact that there's not _that_ many other candidates, mostly ones that had to be trained up like Nephenee. Though this was mostly about Stefan/Volke and not about people who do nothing but healspam, which is lower on a hypothetical 4-E tier list in my book.

2 range in 4-E is overrated. 4-E-1 and 2 don't have too many 1-2 rangers IIRC. The Dragons all have 1-2 range, but most of that is player phase anyway due to Dragons hitting hard. 4-E-4 and 5 is the usual argument, but personally, I find it a simple task to always get rid of every Spirit that moves on the first turn, so there would be no enemy phase to worry about.

Then you have to consider as well that Urvan, Vague Katti, and most powerful forges will be locked to 1 range as well.

Does this excuse him from the fact he needs a master crown to do what Oliver already can do? We aren't just gonna throw Pelleas into endgame for no damn reason.

He's already below Oliver for a reason.

[Interceptor]

Paperblade made a pretty good point a few pages back about why 4-E slots aren't as competed for, concerning the problems laguz royals have (mostly lack of 2-range, and some have atk issues, while Giffca also has that laguz gem), and the fact that there's not _that_ many other candidates, mostly ones that had to be trained up like Nephenee. Though this was mostly about Stefan/Volke and not about people who do nothing but healspam, which is lower on a hypothetical 4-E tier list in my book.

The post that Mekkah is referring to was made one month and 65 pages ago, for those who want to read it (warning: he's wrong about the BK's behavior, and about herons). I don't think it was a good point at all. Red Fox has the right of it as far as I can see.

[charmander6000]

I agree, two range is nice to have in endgame, but not having it is not bad.

E-1 - Royals can easily kill the generals while most two range units are mages that anyone else can kill.

E-2 - This is about Ike and the BK, any levels/kills gained here is just a bonus

E-3 - Like said before most two-ranged weapons can't ORKO dragons and nobody really wants to go against multiple dragons during enemy phase.

E-4 - Spirits can be easily killed during player phase

E-5 - Same as above.

Well since it doesn't look like Pelleas is going anywhere does anyone think Mordecai > Aran? Both are walls that don't double without help, but Mordecai can take a lot more punishment. He has more move, but has a transformation guage.